Israeli Members of Knesset call each other ‘terrorist’ and ‘fascist’ during debate on access to the Temple Mount.
Knesset Interior Committee chairman Dudi Amsalem (Likud) cut short a meeting about discrimination against Jews on the Temple Mount 10 minutes after it began, following a shouting match between Arab and Jewish MKs Tuesday.
The meeting was called following motions to the agenda by MKs Yinon Magal (Bayit Yehudi) and Miki Zohar (Likud), and quickly spun out of control.
Magal called the situation in which Jews who want to pray on the Temple Mount may not do so problematic.
“Jews have the right to pray on the Mount and our first goal has to be to keep the order and allow Jews to ascend the Mount quietly and freely,” Magal said.
Magal demanded that police keep the “Morabitat,” a group of Muslim women with their faces covered paid by Islamic groups to harass Jewish visitors, away from the site immediately.
Zohar says he respects Islam and asks that Muslims respect his religion, Judaism, in return, and not obstruct Jews from visiting their holy site.
“It cannot be that in a Jewish State, with Jewish sovereignty, we can’t do minimal acts of worship, like prayer. This harms our freedom of religion. How would the world react if we limited Muslims’ freedom of religion? This problem needs to be solved and freedom of religion for the Jewish People in its land must be respected,” he stated.
MK Zuheir Bahloul (Zionist Union) said the right-wing MKs were “cynically taking advantage of the Interior Committee” to repeat things that were already said. He added that the police already decided that the situation is too dangerous to change the policies.
“So we should let crazy women in masks continue rioting?” Magal interjected, referring to the Morabitat.
MK Jamal Zahalka (Joint List) accused MKs supporting Jewish prayer on the Temple Mount of being “pyromaniacs who want to make headlines with their patriotism.”
“There’s no problem in visiting al-Aqsa,” he said, using the Arabic term for mosque on the Temple Mount, “as long as they are not provocative visits by people who say they want to divide al-Aqsa.”
Zahalka added that if the status quo changes, “blood will be shed.”
“Are you making a threat?” MK Sharon Gal (Yisrael Beytenu) asked. “That is terrorism! The Temple Mount is not occupied, it is liberated and it is ours. Don’t threaten us with blood. Who are you, anyway? It’s ours and you will not change history.”
Source: Jerusalem Post
My reply:
The Bible explains that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem will be the very place the antichrist will establish his regime.
It will be a brief rule, a time where blasphemy against God of the Hebrews will be globally accepted. And a time of fierce persecution of all who objects to the compromise done, to elevate the last man of lawlessness.
To claim that the Temple Mount belongs to Islam, is a bid to delete 2.000 years of the history of the Middle East. Simply because the city of Jerusalem was established more than 1600 years before the birth of Muhammad. And the law of Moses which was going to be proclaimed in the Temple, another thousand year older.
God the Hebrews resided behind the curtain in the first temple in Jerusalem. The Messiah walked in the court yard of the Second Temple. The same Messiah will return to kill the last man of lawlessness, at the same spot. It will be the time of redemption of all souls who are eagerly waiting His return.
2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
What a glorious moment it will be, when God of the Bible display His mighty powers, and deal with His enemies.
The last battle between good and evil will take place on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Do not end up pleasing and supporting the wrong camp of evildoers.
Written by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
If anyone, even secularly, was really seeking peace then they would surrender the Temple Mount, in it’s entirety, to the Israelis because it is their highest place of worship. It is only the third highest in Islam. But peace isn’t what is wanted….
Totally correct. Satanically-empowered men are orchestrating many events toward the moment when their Antichrist will announce his “godhood” in the midst of the Third Temple. When he does that, it will provoke the profound fury of heaven against him and all of his followers–a fury the like of which the world has never before seen. “And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.” (Matthew 24:22) The Lord God Jehovah is on His throne and in total control of world events. Evil men are delusional to believe that they will have any kind of victory, just as is the one whom they follow.
After the 1967 war when all was won back, Moshe Dyan gave it to the Palestinians. They were getting ready to leave the city and Mount, and as they were going he told them not to go and they could stay at the mount. Dyan was a secular and did not care about religion, Temple Mount .. etc. There were others in politics who had this same view.
Dear karbar77
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
To blame Dayan, is partly correct. But he did not return the Temple Mount, against the desire of the Jewish community. The various sectors of Judaism could not agree what to do with this place, and did not stand united. Some Orthodoc scolars claimed the Jews can not enter the “holy chambers”, before every Jew keep the Sabbath, etc.
There was no temple priesthood ready to restart religious seremonies.
And what was the largly secular Israeli community going to do with this place. Turn it into a Museum?
Is is important to acknowledge that Israeli forces did not gun for East Jerusalem. This part of the city was retaken (reclaimed) in yet another war forced up on the Jewish state. The sudden capture of the Temple Mount, was not a pre-planned and organized liberation.
Well it is all but over as the so called man of peace the antichrist pope is standing with G-d’s enemies. in the end, they will all be destroyed. and Israel will be there forever. and like G-d said HE will build up zion. and the greater Israel does as it blooms the more the world wants it. In the end the Jews will rule with their Messiah and those who love and serve them both. what a glad day and just knowing it will be forever. IF only the churches were not in great apostasy, they would see how we were to go into all the world and take the gospel to the JEW FIRST..and now as the time for the gentiles is but over, Israel is turning and being saved..Romans 11 tells us all Israel will be saved. Shalom for the world to think the church replaced Israel , well that is a lie
I notice a bit of a bias Mama, you say “those who love and serve them both” i.e. Christ and the Jews. As if the gentiles should serve the Jews. I saw in the scripture that there is only One head, Christ, the rest are all equal. Except that the benefit of being a Jew is that the scriptures were given to the Jew, for what that means. They had a head start. First the Jew then the gentile was instructions for the Apostles. For instance Paul always went to the Jewish synagogue first to try on convince them about Christ since they having already had the law should be the most likely to understand. But in the end, when all is said and done. For me as a non jew, Scriptures don’t paint the picture that the jews will rule the earth with the gentiles serving them. But it does paint the picture that someday those in Christ will rule the earth and the heirarchy might be determined, in part, by a persons good works in this life.
Hi Ed
Well said.
Everyone must remember, just as
Gentiles are grafted in so too are the Jews who have been cut off.
They have to be grafted back in.
Whether grafted in or grafted back in both are equal
Hi Ed,
The Bible says that, during the Millennial Kingdom, the reconstituted nation of Israel will be a blessing to the entire world. It’s priests will constantly serve all nations from the Millennial Temple. Our Lord’s view of leadership is one of “servant leadership” just as He served all humankind, putting Him at the head, as the King of Kings. He told us to avoid the kind of leadership of the Gentiles who “lord it over” their subjects. We must be humble servants–just as He was “…many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.” (Matthew 19:30)
Dear Job 3627.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
The Bible says that, during the Millennial Kingdom, the reconstituted nation of Israel will be a blessing to the entire world. It’s priests will constantly serve all nations from the Millennial Temple.
My reply:
Not all of us believe you are right. The Millenium kingdom is the age of judgement. It will be the age of stern rule, where King Messiah will judge every soul. It will be a just kingdom, in the sense that all will get what they deserve. If their name was not written in the book of life before the second comming, they will surley perish. No second chance after the end of the age of grace.
In regards to the third temple, there are also different views.
I admit it is a challenging issue, and I have not focused much on this topic. But I feel the present Temple Mount will be the place of a temple of all faiths, probably inside the dome of the rock. This is the location where the Pope and the Imam’s will establish their center for the new One World Religion.
I belive the vision of Ezekiel of a third temple is linked to the comming of the New Jerusalem. I believe this temple will not be built with human hands, but litterally come down from Heaven. They day we will get a new Heaven and and new Earth.
I do not believe that a third Jewish temple will be built in Jerusalem, where Orthodox Jews will restart the secarefices of animals.
I might be wrong. But my mind is simply not able to comprehend all that will take place, when our understanding of time and the laws of physics will be set a side by the King of Kings.
The bible does not say that. Your interpretation of the bible says that. My interpretation does not draw that same conclusion.
One clue for you, at least to show, you may not have all the pieces put together correctly, is the “millenial temple”. There is no Temple in Christs kingdom.
Rev 21:22 “I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.”
Hi Ed,
That which you quoted is describing the Eternal State (that indeed has no Temple as God the Father Almighty and the Lamb are the center of worship in the New Jerusalem and provide its light). The Eternal State does not begin until after the Millennium (see “The Thousand Years” in Revelation chapter 20) and the Great White Throne Judgment which follows the Millennial Kingdom. No offense intended but you need to read your Bible a bit more carefully. This is not a matter of “interpretation”; it is what the Bible clearly teaches.
In addition, the Book of Ezekiel (chapters 40-48) describes the Millennial Kingdom, in great detail. It contains a description of an elaborate Temple that will be operating there. We know that it is yet in the future, because there has never been such a Temple, nor has there ever been such a large nation of Israel. Why would the latter prophets speak of it as being in the future if it were not so. They spoke of it as God’s way of comforting those who were being disciplined in the exiles. Ezekiel notes in the “Valley of Dry Bones” discourse (see Ezekiel 37) that Israel will be reconstituted in unbelief but that it will not stay that way. Ezekiel 36:26 gives God’s promise to the nation of Israel: “And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.”
The prophet Jeremiah spoke of the Millennial Kingdom in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Isaiah also describes the Millennial Kingdom that will be given to a reconstituted Israel (see Isaiah 52, 54, 55 and 56 just to name a few of the Old Testament books that speak of the Messianic Kingdom that Jesus’ disciples asked Him about in Acts 1:6. The promised Kingdom WILL be given to Israel. Were it not so, it is unthinkable that the Lord Jesus would have let them think that it would be granted, at some point in the future. Granted, it has been delayed because of the great sin of the nation in denying their Messiah, but it will come because the promised Kingdom was NEVER predicated on obedience.
The prophet Zechariah depicts, in Zechariah 12:10, the scene when the nation of Israel will come to repentance and finally embrace their Messiah. It is stunningly sad but it will give way to the glorious Kingdom that will be put in place under their (and our) Messiah and Lord. Amen?
It doesn’t add up for me. The Ezekiel temple describes sacrificing bulls. Why would they need to do that after Christ was already the only acceptable sacrifice.
I expect it is because Israel, at that time, will be able to live out the Kingdom the way it was SUPPOSED to be originally. Just as Hebrews 10:4 tells us that “the blood of bulls and goats” cannot take away sin so, in the Millennium, they will know that it does not take away sin. It was put into place before Messiah’s first advent as a foreshadowing of what would come–His once and for all sacrifice–so it is in the Millennium as a memorial of what took place–just as we use Communion in the Church for the same purpose. Animal sacrifice demonstrates, in a very graphic way, the horrible results of sin. Those mortals inhabiting the Millennial Kingdom will still be capable of sinning. (See Isaiah 65:20) They will need the sacrificial system to remind them of their obligations. The King of Kings will rule “with a rod of iron” but it will be a just and fair Kingdom. Satan will be bound so the temptation to sin will not be as prevalent, but Scripture tells us that he will be loosed at the end of the Millennium and instigates one last rebellion (see Rev. 20:7-9). And then the Great White Throne Judgment will occur (also called the Final Judgment) followed by the New Jerusalem descending out of Heaven.
Maybe. It seems to make sense, but that would be before the resurrection. I’ll probably sleep through that part…
Hi Ivar,
You said: “Not all of us believe you are right. The Millenium kingdom is the age of jugdment. It will be the age of stern rule, where King Messiah will judge every soul. It will be a just kingdom, in the sense that all will get what they deserve. If their name was not written in the book of life before the second comming, they will surely perish. No second chance after the end of the age of grace.”
My reply: The Millennial Kingdom will be a reward for the faithful of Israel who will have faced death at the hands of the Antichrist rather than deny their Lord and Messiah, Yeshua (once they finally see Him as He is). They will be protected throughout the Tribulation and the Kingdom will be theirs at the end of it when the Lord sets up His Kingdom. Theirs will be a nation of mortals (only those who are true believers will survive the Tribulation) as Ezekiel depicts the “Prince” of Israel as having sons in 46:18 (see Ezekiel chapters 45 and 46 for more details of the rulership of Israel in the Millennium). We know that they will not be resurrected beings as the Lord Jesus Himself said that there would be no marriage in the resurrection and it is unthinkable that the “Prince” would have sons without marriage. We must conclude that they will be believing mortal survivors of the Tribulation, who are handed the Kingdom. They will be very long-lived (see Isaiah 65:20) but they will be mortal. It is likely that the Church, as the Bride of Christ will “sit out” the Millennial Kingdom in the New Jerusalem that does not come down out of Heaven until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment (see Revelation chapter 21) ushering in the Eternal State.
You said: “In regards to the third temple, there are also different views. I have not focused much on this issues, but feel the present Temple Mount will be the place of a temple of all faiths. probably inside the dome of the rock. There is where the Pope and the Imam’s will establish their center for the new One World Religion.”
My reply: Little doubt that this is true, but that does not mean that it will not be scoured and rededicated after the “Abomination of Desolation” and become the Millennial Temple. OR, alternatively, the Lord could destroy that Temple and bring down the Heavenly Temple to sit in place of that desecrated Temple. (see Revelation 15:5-8)
You said: “I believe the vision of Ezekiel of a third temple is linked to the coming of the New Jerusalem.”
My reply: I don’t think so–the Book of Revelation says that the Temple will not be in the Eternal State and the New Jerusalem will clearly be there in the Eternal State.
You said: “I simply believe it will not be built with human hands, but literally come down from Heaven.”
My reply: That certainly is a possibility (see my answer above concerning the Heavenly Temple mentioned in Rev. 15:5-8).
You said: “…My mind is simply not able to comprehend all that will take place, the day time and the known laws of physics are set a side by the King of Kings.”
My reply: Yes–I think it will truly be too wonderful for words. The Apostle Paul was stunned by what he witnessed when he was taken up to the “Third Heaven”. Imagine what it will be like when Heaven comes to earth. What incredible joy awaits all who put their trust in Jesus. Amen? 🙂
Blessings to all.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
The theology that claims that Israel shall suffer in the Great Tribulation, while the Church is celebrathing the wedding feast in Heaven, is based on a Jesuit inspired Pre-Trib doctrine.
This is replacement theology and pure antisemitism in the name of “Christ”.
The true Church will stay put on the face of the Earth, inside the Great Tribulation, as a witness. Together with Israel and Messianic Jews.
We will be kept through the Great Tributaltion. Jesus has shortened these days for the sake of the elect. The remant of Israel is surely the elect, since she will be saved. So are we who have been grafted.
The true Chruch will not submit to the antichrist, and we will not take the mark of the beast. Those of us who have been beheaded will come back and reign with Christ for thousand years.
The golden mission age of the Jews preaching the gospel is behind us. It was the glorious days before the arrival of Muhammad, and the dark ages. When the Church of Jesus was largly a gathering of believing Jews, scattered and living inside all nations.
When the age of grace its over, there is no more grace. The millenium age is the age of judgement.
I have heared to many baloney statements of false pre-trib teachers, in particular about the “new age of grace” after the return of Jesus. Where secular Israel suddenly shall be turned into the perfected Earth, in line with the doctrines of the Jehova Witnesses. This is truly “NEW AGE”.
I have to warn against their deceptive talks. The Church who are not ready to enter the Great Tribulation, will fall away and take the mark of the beast.
Hi Ivar,
Grace and peace to you.
You said: “The theology that claims that Israel shall suffer in the Great Tribulation, while the Church is celebrating the wedding feast in Heaven, is based on a Jesuit inspired Pre-Trib doctrine.”
My reply: Not at all. It is based on what the Bible teaches. When you read the Bible very carefully, the picture emerges. I didn’t fabricate this–it is all there.
The idea that the Rapture is a “Jesuit-inspired Pre-Trib doctrine” is, itself, a lie, fabricated by the Mormons (and other modern-day Gnostics). Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons, was a 33rd degree Mason. Mormon doctrine, like Masonic “theology” is thoroughly Gnostic–and the Gnostics have ALWAYS opposed the teaching of the Rapture of the Church. They must have been those who influenced the RCC against the teaching of the Rapture, even though it was very likely preached in the early days of the Church. Remember that Augustine (the darling of RCC theology) was heavily influenced by Manichaeism which is a type of Gnosticism. Gnosticism has always existed as the dark underbelly of the RCC and the Jesuits are themselves Gnostic in their personal beliefs. It is strongly rumoured that many, if not most Jesuits are today, Masons. Some RCC priests have even strongly suggested that some of the Vatican Jesuits are outright Satanists.
The teaching of the Rapture is no more “replacement theology” or “pure antisemitism” than was Jesus’ prediction of the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem that would occur in 70 A.D. Jesus’ prediction of that event combined with a reported miraculous warning, caused those Jews who believed in Him to escape to Pella when the Roman general, Titus, suddenly (and temporarily) pulled his forces back from siege of the city (because of internal strife in Rome). I can supply a scholarly paper that examines and verifies what has long been considered a truthful part of the history of the Church. Think about it–why would the Jesuits want to encourage evangelical Christians? The teaching on the Rapture of the Church certainly IS an encouragement to the saints.
You said: “The true Church will stay put on the face of the Earth, inside the Great Tribulation, as a witness. Together with Israel and Messianic Jews.”
My reply: What purpose would be served by leaving the true Church here? Their leaving in a Rapture is actually a much better witness to the power of Christ, than would be the case of the true Church (who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, strong in faith and obedience) staying here on earth to face the wrath of God. When has God ever poured out His wrath on obedient believers??! There will be more than enough newly-believing Gentiles and Jews to preach the true Gospel after the Church has suddenly been removed. Sadly, they will be martyred for not submitting to the Antichrist, but they will face a glorious future. Think about it–what is the purpose of the Millennium? Is it not to restore the Kingdom to Israel? That is why Jesus’ disciples were anxious to ask Him about it in Acts 1:6
You said: “The golden mission age of the Jews preaching the gospel is behind us. It was the glorious days before the arrival of Muhammad, and the dark ages. When the Church of Jesus was largely a gathering of believing Jews, scattered and living inside all nations.”
My reply: No–the Church was largely Gentile from the beginning of the Church age–Paul became disgusted with preaching to the Jews and said in Acts 18:6, “Your blood be upon your own heads–I am innocent. From now on, I will go to the Gentiles.” Why were the Jews punished with the destruction of Israel and their expulsion from the Land, if they were largely “believing Jews”?? Israel almost certainly would have been granted the Kingdom at that time, had a majority of them embraced the truth. The destruction of 70 A.D. is evidence that the vast majority of Israel had rejected their Messiah. There was a believing remnant who escaped, but the early Church was overwhelmingly Gentile. Church history confirms this fact.
In addition, how do you explain the 144,000 from the Twelve Tribes of Israel, on the earth in Revelation 7 and in heaven in Revelation 14? There is no way those individuals mentioned in Rev. 7 could be seen as Gentiles. I expect that the 144,000 will be the ones evangelizing the Jewish people after the Church disappears from the earth (the Church is seen in heaven immediately following the enumeration of the 144,000 in Rev. chapter 7.) Revelation 14:3-5 possibly indicates that they have been raptured to heaven after their duties are done, because it tells us that they are a “special offering to the Lord, purchased from the people of the earth.” (The Two Witnesses will have already been raptured in Rev. 11.) After the 144,000 are seen in heaven in chapter 14, the only ones left preaching the Gospel on earth, are the three angels of Revelation 14: 6-13.
You said: “When the age of grace its over, there is no more grace. The millenium age is the age of judgement.”
My reply: No, the Old Testament prophets were clear in their understanding of a golden age for the nation of Israel in the distant future (see Daniel 12) when the Kingdom would finally be given to them. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah, among other OT prophets, teach about the future Kingdom of Israel. The Tribulation will be indeed a time of judgment on unbelievers but it will be followed by the Millennium–1000 years of a near return to Eden. In speaking of this Millennial Kingdom, Isaiah said in 11:9: “They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.”
You said: “I have heard too many baloney statements of false pre-trib teachers, in particular about the “new age of grace” after the return of Jesus. This is truly “NEW AGE”.
My reply: The teaching of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is VERY Biblical as I think I have demonstrated over and over to you. “New Age” spirituality is nothing but “old age” Gnosticism. It saddens me that you would insult so many believing, “Blood-bought, Bible-taught, Spirit-wrought” Christians in that way.
You said: “I have to warn against their deceptive talks. The Church who are not ready to enter the Great Tribulation, will fall away and take the mark of the beast.”
My reply: Not at all. We, similar to Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah will be empowered by the Holy Spirit to say, when/if that day dawns, “…If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God whom we serve is able to save us. He will rescue us…but even if He does not,…we will neither serve Satan nor worship his Antichrist.” Amen.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
All who accept the Pope as a Christian leader, are doing the work of Satan. Dont let there be any Satanist in your midts.
1. False: The Church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation. The truth is that the Church will have to enter the Great Tribulation. Simply because the pre-trib rapture is a delousion, a false security against persecution and martyrdom.
2. False: The Church has not to worry about the mark of the beast, because she will not be here when the mark is identified.
The truth is that the Church must worry, and be able to identify and not take the mark of the beast.
3, False: The Church are not able to idenify the last and final antichrist, because he will only be revealed after the rapture.
The truth is that the Church must identify the last and final antichrist, and be able to resist him. Even to the point of martyrdom.
The doctrine of the Pre-trib rapture leads us into end time deceptions. It is a snare, and a deadly trap. The major beneficiary of this doctrine is the Bishop of Rome. Since the logic will be, that he can not be the antichrist, as long as the Charistimatics are present on Earth. Those who claim so, work inline with the Vatican II council.
The doctrine of the pre-triob rapture leads us into an area of doctrical chaos. Since the call and ability to identify and bell the Pope as an antichrist is the base for all truly reformed Christians. All the reformers of the Church called the Pope an antichrist.
To claim the oposite, that the Pope is a Christian, is a gross error. And the view of the Charismatic New Apostilic Reformation movement. They call for unity in “Christ”, that also includes Roman Catholics. This is a movement that has been compromised by Jesuits and Charismatic Catholic, and must be rejected. This is a NEW AGE movement, that has deceptive spirits in its midts, presented as the Holy Spirit. A mortal sin.
I will continue to warn against the false teachers of the pre-trib rapture.
By the way, Ivar, I have dear Messianic Jewish friends who have a lot of relatives in Israel. They have been busily evangelizing their relatives in Israel. Do you not believe that my friends’ sudden disappearance in a Rapture would be a powerful inducement to faith in their secular Jewish relatives?
As Catholics we don’t believe in the rapture and find many problems with it. We believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ.
That is when Jesus Christ comes the second time as 1 Thes 4:16 says basically that is the end so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If you look at 1Cor 15:51 through 55 you see in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye when the Lord comes …
CCC 675: Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.
The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.
Armorrcc,
I see that you have to resort to the opinions of the writers of the Catholic catechism to support your view. What about the differences between the Lord coming for His Church and when He comes in Judgment?
When the Lord comes in the air, for His Bride, He returns to His Father’s house (John 14:1-3). The time has ALWAYS been imminent (does the RCC teach the doctrine of Imminency?)–it could have happened at any time since the Resurrection.
The Church is the betrothed Bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2) and we are taught by the Parable of the Ten Virgins to be ready to go with Him, at all times, as we don’t know when the Bridegroom will be coming for us (Matthew 25:1-13). To reinforce what He was teaching, Jesus summarized the lesson in verse 13–that we should always be watchful and waiting for His return.
In contrast, the Second Coming is one where the Lord comes with His Army from Heaven in Judgment on unbelievers. It must necessarily come AFTER the Tribulation, as there are many events preceding His return in judgment, that occur only during the Tribulation (most notably, the desecration of the Tribulation Temple by the Antichrist–mentioned in Matthew 24 by Jesus, and He also, at that time, cites the Book of Daniel (9:27). That desecration is also mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:3-6. Since the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., that necessarily places the Second Coming after the regathering of Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple.
There are many passages in the Old Testament which teach of the “Day of the Lord” which begins with the Tribulation (see Revelation 6:16-17), and there are some in the New Testament as well. I will let you find them for yourself as my time is pressed at the moment. But I will note one thing: the Lord Jesus descends to the Mount of Olives when He comes in judgment, and the Mount of Olives actually splits in two at His arrival (Zechariah 14:3-5) in contrast to His meeting the Church in the air. And He stays to set up His Kingdom here on earth (having routed all of His enemies) rather than returning to the Father’s house with His Bride. To glom them together is egregious error.
To summarize, there are many things that must occur before the Second Coming–and there are none that must occur before the Rapture. It is a false teaching that the Rapture must occur immediately before the Tribulation, as some evangelicals teach.
I meant to say in the second last paragraph that “…there are some in the New Testament as well. (see Revelation 6:16-17)” Sorry for the mistake.
Hi Ivar,
You said: “…The doctrine of the Pre-trib rapture leads us into end time deceptions. It is a snare, and a deadly trap. The major beneficiary of this doctrine is the Bishop of Rome. Since the logic will be, that he can not be the antichrist, as long as the Charistimatics are present on Earth. Those who claim so, work inline with the Vatican II council…”
My reply: No–I don’t think you really understand how most true believers among evangelicals view the concept of the pre-Trib Rapture. And in saying that, I am NOT saying that everyone who holds to the Pre-Trib Rapture is Scripturally sound. Charismatics will often teach it and, as a group, they are almost universally confused in their understandings of Scripture. (That is likely as a result of the Charismatic movement coming out of the RCC–did you know that? It can be well-demonstrated.)
There are a number of Biblical passages which teach about resurrection–from the Book of Job through the Book of Revelation. It is a completely trustworthy Biblical concept. Without it, as Paul noted in 1 Cor. 15:12-20, the entire faith falls apart. At the same time, however, there are only a few which teach of the Rapture and even fewer in support of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. BUT, it is NOT without Biblical foundation.
The Pre-Trib Rapture is typically not taught as “doctrine” in conservative evangelical churches–such as conservative Baptist churches (who, believe me, have no love for “charismania”). What IS taught as doctrine would be general teaching on the Resurrection from the dead and other teaching–such as the concept of “salvation-by-grace-through-faith” which has MANY Scripture passages in support of it. Those true believers who hold to the teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, will typically hold it lightly as the “blessed hope” (see Titus 2:13) of being taken up to heaven by the Lord Jesus, who will meet us in the air–both those who have died in Him and those who are still alive at that time. Scripture indicates that It will be an instantaneous resurrection (see 1 Cor. 15:51-52) –with those who are alive at that time being resurrected without tasting suffering and death.
The foundational verses for the concept of the Rapture are 1 Corinthians 15:23–which gives information on the order of the resurrections (and don’t forget that there are several–one has already occurred in Jesus’ resurrection–a “First Fruits”), 15:51-53; which speaks most strongly of the living being raised without dying, 1 Thess.4:13-18 and 1 Thess. 5:9-11 which tells us that we are “not appointed to God’s wrath” and that our Lord Jesus died for us “so that we can live with Him forever, whether we are dead or alive at the time of His return.” Who can doubt that the Tribulation is specifically a time of God’s wrath and that of the Lamb? (see Revelation chapters 5 through 18.) It’s “secret” nature is spoken of in 1 Cor. 15:51.
You said: “…The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture leads us into an area of doctrical chaos…”
My reply: To the contrary, I think it brings clarity–for there are a number of passages of Scripture that make us scratch our heads without having the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as part of our understanding.
You said: “Since the call and ability to identify and bell the Pope as an antichrist is the base for all truly reformed Christians. All the reformers of the Church called the Pope an antichrist.”
My reply: While the Church has always identified those who are antichrist in the past (see 1 John 2:22) that designation applies to MANY down through the Church age–not just the Pope of Rome (although the Papacy has always been a defiance to the Lordship of Jesus over His Church). All of Islam denies the Son of God and are thus, antichrist. In saying that, we should note that nothing is more heartbreaking than seeing the mourning of repentance in a Muslim when he/she actually sees our Lord for who He truly is–the Son of God. They become some of the Lord’s most vigorous evangelists as new believers. But all of this is not to say that the Church will be here to identify THE Antichrist–the “man of lawlessness” (2 Thess. 2:3-4) “a king of fierce countenance” (Daniel 8:23) etc. I think that Messianic believers, who come to faith after the Church is taken, will be the ones to understand exactly who he is (that he is NOT the Jewish Messiah)–especially after he desecrates the Tribulation Temple–and will flee to a place of protection–just as they did in 70 A.D. before the Romans brought destruction on Jerusalem.
You said: “To claim the oposite, that the Pope is a Christian, is a gross error. And the view of the Charismatic New Apostilic Reformation movement. They call for unity in “Christ”, that also includes Roman Catholics. This is a movement that has been compromised by Jesuits and Charismatic Catholic, and must be rejected. This is a NEW AGE movement, that has deceptive spirits in its midts, presented as the Holy Spirit. A mortal sin.”
My reply: Yes–I can affirm a lot of what you just said. The Pope definitely does not SEEM like a Christian (but then, neither do many Charismatics and those who hold to the “New Apostolic Reformation”–they are confused, to say the least). They often teach as truth many things that are untrue (“Prosperity Gospel”), but they sometimes teach the truth. Even Satan tells the truth occasionally–but a key difference between him and those who claim Jesus as Lord, is that he blends truth and falsehood, in a DELIBERATE plan to confuse. He can actually quote Scripture, as we see from his his quoting of Psalm 91 during his temptation of the Lord Jesus–BUT he distorts the meaning and he knows what he is doing. Many in the Charismatic and other “Christian” movements do so, as well, and some of them are probably deliberate about it, in order to enrich themselves. The RCC hierarchy are certainly masters of Scripture distortion and much of it seems self-serving, as well.
You said: “I will continue to warn against the false teachers of the pre-trib rapture.”
My reply: We should always warn other believers to be like Bereans and test everything they are told against the Scriptures. But, to denounce other believing individuals because your opinions don’t match theirs, is wrong. Jesus scolded His disciples for trying to stop an individual from acting in Jesus’ name.(see Luke 9:50) Are you so sure that the Pre-Trib Rapture is untrue? Where are your Scripture references to support your contention? I have posted mine in support of the concept.
dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I wrote, and your reminded me:
…The doctrine of the pre-trib rapture leads us into an area of doctrical chaos…”
Your reply: To the contrary, I think it brings clarity–for there are a number of passages of Scripture that make us scratch our heads without having the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as part of our understanding.
My comment:
Let us not go through the full debate related to the rapture, once again. But I strongly feel that the doctrine of pre-trib rapture is one of the main reason for the great falling away:
Let me explain my case:
1. If the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation, there is no need to be conserned about what takes place in the book of Revelation after chapter 4. It is eroniously presented as irrelevant.
2. If the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation, there is no need to worry about who the last and final antichrist is. Nor about who among us are already paving the way for his rule and domains.
3. If the Church is raptured before the Great Tribulation, there is no need to worry about what the mark of the beats is. And do not worry. Whatever you take, it can not be it. Because you will not be here to take it. If you belive in this non sense, you are most likely the one who will take the mark of the beast.
These three gross errors are fatal. Because:
1. We might already be inside the Great Tribulation. I belive we are. The false Church will deny this, simply because it do not fit into its doctrines. Even if the Nile is filled up with the blood of the martyrs, the pre-tibbers will still deny the reality on the ground.
2. The Antichrist is revealed, and his support base is enlarged by the day. And the false Church will deny that he is the antichrist, simply because the false Church deny that any Christian will be able to discern who he is.
3. The world system that do elevate the antichrist is already at work. The technology that will be used to monitor and control us all is ready. What the World leaders lack, is the will to implement it. Most carnal and wordily “Christians” are lovers of the World, and are slowly getting cooked by their false teachers. Like a frog in the pan.
You are one of these false teachers. If you do not repent, the person who listen to you will walk into deception. Remember I loved you enough to warn you.
I don’t believe in the rapture either. I think what happened with Ezekiels temple is it was on the condition that the Israelites put away their Idols and sculptures of their dead kings. Since they never achieved that goal Jesus became the temple instead.
So if Satan caused the Isrealites to fail at achieving the righteousness required for Ezekiels temple, Satan can build it for himself and trick people into believe it is the temple of God.
Hi Ed,
You wrote: “So if Satan caused the Israelites to fail at achieving the righteousness required for Ezekiels temple, Satan can build it for himself and trick people into believe it is the temple of God.”
What makes you think that he won’t, Ed? He’s a wily devil for sure. But what has that got to do with the Rapture? I’m not following…
Nothing to do with the rapture except I read Amorrcc say he didn’t believe in the rapture and I agree.
I think he will build the temple. Because he can set himself up in a temple built by hands but not in the temple built without hands.
2 Thessalonians 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Dear Ed Jones
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Both you and any false Roman Catholic teacher is deadly wrong about the rapture. Denying what the Bible clearly explains. Are you a Bible believer, who belive what you read?
Do not set the Word of God aside for your personal opinion, nor because of the dogmas of the Pope.
I don’t believe in the rapture. Amorrcc doesn’t believe in the rapture. Job3627 believes in the rapture.
Dear Ed Jones.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I don’t believe in the rapture. Amorrcc doesn’t believe in the rapture. Job3627 believes in the rapture.
My reply:
I could care less what you believe, and about opinions. I only care what the Bibel says. The Bible is crystal clear that there will be a rapture. I and Job 3627 do not agree on the timing of the rapture, and the consequences of our disagreement.
The Bible exlains that there will be a rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Matthew: 24-3-31.
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
(end of scripture)
Since we shall be with the Lord forever, I do not belive those who have been raptured will be transported to a “wedding party in Heaven”, and than return to Earth.
I do not believe in three commings of the Lord. The “secret rapture doctrine”, or pre-trib doctrine, is about the third not Biblical comming of the Lord.
I believe in a rapture of a bruised and persecuted Church, a spectacular global collection of His faithful saints to Jerusalem. The lukewarm and apostate Church has already started to presecute Christians, and are a part of the problem. They will not be collected, but will be sent to the eternal fire.
From the rapture onwards His true saints will be with Him always.
In Jerusalem His gathered beheaded saints will reign with Him, as long as it takes to judge the whole of mankind. A thusand years….He will separete the sheep and the goats infront of His throne in Jerusalen. From Jerusalem, He will take His saints to the eternal Kingdom of Heaven.
The angles are not collecing dead people, from Roman Catholic graves. The angles will be collecting all who are alive!…And even the dead will rise to face jugdment. Wow. Surley there are spectacular events ahed of us.
1 Thessalonians 3:13 (New King James).
so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.
Coming?…He has already come once, and without his “saints”. During His second comming, His saints will come with Him. Gathered in, from the four corners of the Earth.
You’re describing the resurrection not a rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” Then 1 Thessalonians 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Which happens in the blink of an eye, not 1000 years.
1 cor 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Dear Ed Jones.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Those who are live, will not be gathered from the graves. Paul speak’s about we who are ALIVE!….
Eternal life is now. Today. My soul has already been ressurected. I am a new creation. I have been born again. I have crossed from death to life. And I walk in the power of His ressurection. God the almighty live and reigns in my heart.
But I have not been gathered by the angles, and I have not been granted my heavenly body. But in a split of a second, as I meet the Lord in the air, I will be get my new body.
All glory to Jesus, my King, God and my best friend.
Ps. If I have to face Sheol, Jesus will come and raise me up. From the tomb of silence, a place Jesus Him self visited.
Huh, Paul talks about both the living and the dead. You deny that the dead will be raised? Only a line ahead of the one you quoted says the dead will rise first.
1 Corinthians is Paul writing that the dead will be raised.
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the DEAD will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The dead and the living.
2 Timothy 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
Dear Ed Jones
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I do not deny that the dead will rise first. But Paul speaks about those who are alive!…Who will meet the Lord in the air.
The dead can continute to bury their own dead. I have no objections, and I do not desire to participate.
All will eventually face the throne of judgment in Jerusalem. The Lion of Judah will judge both the living and the dead.
If you notice the time frame, the dead rise in the first part of a twinkling of an eye, and the living rise in the back half of a twinkling of an eye.
The living and the dead “in Christ” rise in the first resurrection and reign for 1000 years. (the second death has no power over them) The dead not in Christ are left behind and witness those in Christ being resurrected. Those who witness the first resurrection are left behind could be the dead ‘not in Christ’.
If this is literal even those who pierced him will be watching
Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
But I think we could argue in circles forever on it and I have fishing to do.
Dear Ed Ed Jones
Shalom, and love in Jesus
You wrote:
But I think we could argue in circles forever on it and I have fishing to do
My reply:
Please go fishing.
Hi Ed,
Amorrcc is R.C. and the RCC does not believe in the Rapture. They never, to my knowledge, even teach the Book of Revelation at all–which is sad because it is the only Book of the Bible that promises a blessing to those who read it to the Church and who listen to it and who obey what it says. (Rev. 1:3) Of course, it could be problematic for the RCC, were they to teach it, as many, many Bible commenters have judged the “Whore of Babylon” from Revelation 17 to be the RCC–and “her people” are told to “come out of her” unless they want to “share in her plagues”.
It is entirely possible that the Antichrist will build a temple for himself that will not be left standing at the end of the Tribulation. The Millennial Temple (described by Ezekiel) may, in fact, come down out of heaven.
Jesus is the temple, God never wanted to dwell forever in a temple built by people. Soloman was amazed that He would even for a little while.
1 Kings 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!
The Whore of Babylon is probably Satan. Satan tempts the whole world, the whole world is vulnerable to temptation and sin and the plagues that come along with sin. What they need to come out of is the world of self loving greed and corruption. Cetainly the RCC wallows in that world and is easy to confuse with the whore of Babylon.
Luke 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Hi Ed,
You said: “Jesus is the temple, God never wanted to dwell forever in a temple built by people. Soloman was amazed that He would even for a little while…”
Yet, Ezekiel prophecies a time in the future when God’s glory will return to the Temple. (Ezekiel 43)
There will be a Millennial Temple wherein the Lord’s glory dwells all during the Millennium just as in the former days of the nation of Israel. (Ezekiel had seen the glory depart. in Ezekiel 10.) The Book of Revelation tells us that for 1000 years, righteousness will reign and then Satan will be loosed to go out and deceive the nations one last time. The mortals who rebel at that time, will never be able to say that they were not given every chance to follow the way of life, as they receive the sentence of the Second Death in the Lake of fire. All of God’s enemies will go into the Lake of fire, including His last enemy, death (1 Cor. 15:25-26). He will have finally rid the earth of the death and suffering that man’s sin brought into the world–a long time for us–a brief time for Him, because to the Lord, “…a thousand years is like a day”. (2 Peter 3:8) The Eternal State will begin–where time is no more. There will be no need of a Temple as God will dwell with His people and they will not sin–they will be pure and holy and live with Him eternally. There will be no more suffering, pain or death. Amen?
Ezekiel’s temple was, ON THE CONDITION that Isreal repent from Idolatry and making funeral offerings their dead kings.
So it’s not exactly a promised temple. It was a could have been temple. So lets say they didn’t repent from idolatry and instead of building a temple like Ezekiel describes they built a temple by their own design, The second temple.
It’s fairly typical that God tells the Israelites something but the Israelites had other ideas, so things go by another route. For instance God was going to be their King but the Israelites wanted a man for a king, so God gave them Saul and the kings after Saul.
Ezekiels temple seems redundant. But maybe God really likes BBQ and they will sacrifice bulls again in the future. I don’t know.
Hi Ed,
The promise of the Kingdom was always before them. Jesus’ disciples certainly knew Israel’s history and would have had access to the writings of Isaiah at a minimum, even if no other prophets (Jesus read from an Isaiah scroll, as His “Torah portion”, one day in the Nazareth synagogue–see Luke 4:16-21). Why would Jesus’ disciples have asked Him about a restoration of the Kingdom to Israel (see Acts 1:6) if the future Kingdom (and for them, the Kingdom without a Temple would have been unthinkable) if the promise had been taken from them? It is God who will replace their “hearts of stone” and give them “hearts of flesh” and give them the promised Millennial Kingdom.(see Isaiah 61) (also see Jeremiah 31:31-40) and there are many more prophecies of a restored Kingdom in the future among the writings of the prophets.
They didn’t like the prophets. Just because a prophet says something doesn’t mean they did what the prophets said.
Luke 11:48 So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.
Hi Ed,
You said: “They didn’t like the prophets. Just because a prophet says something doesn’t mean they did what the prophets said.”
My reply: Forgive me, but I have no idea what you were trying to say with that. Are you suggesting that Jesus’ disciples “didn’t like the prophets”?!? Whether they did or not, what has that to do with whether or not what the prophets predicted about the restoration of the Kingdom, will come to pass in the future? It is a certainty that God “likes” the prophets and enabled them to accurately predict many events in the near future (which came true) and the far future that have yet to be fulfilled. The test of whether or not we should listen to them, is that what they said came true in the short-term. I can assure you that Jesus’ disciples followed Jesus’ teaching from John 10:35, “…the Scripture cannot be broken…” He was speaking of the entire Old Testament. They would have been taught, by Him, to respect the writings of the prophets just as all faith-filled Jewish men did. Jesus quoted from a number of Old Testament prophets during His ministry here.
You quoted Luke 11:48: “So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.”
My reply: Ed, when you quote Scripture passages in an attempt to bolster your point of view, it is a good idea to understand who is being addressed. Jesus was here speaking to those who were enemies of His message–the Pharisees–NOT His disciples. It is important to understand that Jesus knew that the hearts of the Pharisees were corrupted by their pride and understood that they did not know God or respect His message through the prophets. They thought they knew better and that they were thoroughly righteous. They were not. That is why Jesus called them hypocrites. Had the Pharisees been truly faith-filled, they would have recognized Jesus for who and what He was and is. The main bulk of them did not and preferred the status quo. They did not appreciate a “rabble-rouser” like Jesus “stirring up” the people against their draconian religious rule.
You’re missing the point. The prophets were basically messengers of God. So God sends a message to an Israelite king through one of his prophets. Ezekiel says to the Israelite king, repent from all your wrongdoing and God will let you build such and such temple where he will dwell forever. But the Israelite king doesn’t want to listen to Ezekiel and kills Ezekiel. The king doesn’t repent and the temple isn’t built. It doesn’t change what God said would happen. The prophets words were still true but ignored.
The point I hoped you would get about the “killing the prophets” quote is simply that they did kill the prophets rather than listen to them quite often. Jesus said about their ancestors “you condemned and killed the prophets”, then they killed Jesus.
Nehemiah 9:26 “But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.”
Get it? If they listened to Ezekiel the second temple would have looked like Ezekiel described. But they didn’t so the second temple looked like the second temple that was actually built.
Your theory works logically but unfortunately, it does not work historically or theologically. In the time around the prophecies of Ezekiel, the Northern Kingdom (their main city was Samaria)–AKA the “Ten Lost Tribes” of Israel–had already been long since carted away by Assyria (722 B.C.). Only Judah and a remnant of Benjamin were left in the Southern Kingdom (Judah–centered on Jerusalem). Judah was then conquered by Babylon and many Jews were taken away to Babylon (597 B.C.), including Ezekiel who was called to be a prophet while in the Babylonian exile. Ezekiel continued to warn the Jews that their destruction was not complete–that Jerusalem would be destroyed–which was unthinkable for the Jews. The unthinkable happened. Jerusalem was destroyed and from then on, the Jews listened carefully to Ezekiel–they did not kill him. When the Jews were allowed to return to the land of Judah, they rebuilt the Temple but they wept as they realized that it wasn’t even close to the grandeur of Solomon’s Temple. Ezekiel began to receive messages of comfort for the Jews from God. Included in those messages were ones of hope that the once-great nation of Israel would be restored–ALL the tribes of Israel would be there and the Temple that would be rebuilt after the regathering of the nation would be grander than even Solomon’s Temple.
Jews even today long to build “Ezekiel’s Temple” in Israel. But God must act to bring the rest of the Tribes back to the Land. There are remnants of all the Tribes in Israel today but many more are scattered about through the nations. Not even all the Jews came back to the land of Judah from Babylon–many preferred their lives in Babylon. And even today, there are at least as many Jews living abroad as Jews in Israel. The Book of Ezekiel pictures a distant future when there will be a regathering of ALL the Tribes–many of them in unbelief (the “Dry Bones” prophecy of Ezekiel 37). Then God will move on them with His Holy Spirit and bring them to life in Him. It is then that they win some great military victories and rebuild the much larger nation of Israel and finally, rebuild the Temple. THAT’S why they did not build Ezekiel’s Temple–that will come much later. King Herod the Great did a lot of extensions and renovations to the second Temple in his day, but there was never an attempt to build Ezekiel’s Teimple.
History is recorded by those in charge. They don’t give much attention to killing the prophets, they like to cover that up and spin it so they look good. If I recall right, The second temple was built after they came out of Babylon. Ezekiel was right around in that time. Regardless of how history records it, it makes sense that Ezekiel was describing how God wanted the second temple built. The actual temple that was built would compartively illustrate mankinds or just Israels rebellion against God, in the differences.
It seems like even then leaders had spin doctors to make it look like they were doing it right, to please the people. Wikipedia says about Ezekiel “His time of death has not been recorded.” Which seems odd right? Such a great prophet they didn’t write down a record of his death?
Ed, *sigh* —No.
1) Your contention that Ezekiel was murdered cannot be supported. The curious thing about the Jews is that they did not lie about things like that. Pagans lie all the time because that is their language of their father, the devil. You either believe the Bible or you don’t. If you don’t–there is not much we can discuss. The Dead Sea scrolls showed just how accurate and precise were the Jewish scribes–the text has not changed in over 2,000 years.
2) I have already explained why that Temple must be in the future.
They didn’t lie about it, they remained silent. How did Ezekiel die?
You either believe the bible or you don’t. Are you denying that the jewish leaders quite often killed the prophets and did all sorts of detestable acts like the bible accuses them of? You think they wouldn’t lie too? Obviously the jewish leaders didn’t write the bible, the prophets who they killed wrote the bible.
Dear job 3627 and all readers.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I just read Ezekiel 40 to 48 all over again. I can only conclude that Ezekiel speaks about the past, the present and the future. Because God is showing Him a lot of promises that has been, are being and will be fulfilled.
We can not read prophetic books in a cronological manner. Nor this book of Ezekiel.
The revelation came to Ezekiel in the years of captivity, (40:1) point towards the future establishment of the Secound Temple in Jerusalem. It has to be a replica of the First Temple. The temple was supposed to be eternal dwellings of the Lord, but a conditional dwelling. Men broke the covenants, the God destroyed His own temples. Both of them.
Ezekiel 43:7
And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.
Since the people of Israel continued to defile His holy name, also the second temple faced total destruction.
The very idea of God demanding renewed offerings of animals as atonement for sins, do point towards a prophecy related to the Second Temple. Because after the death and ressurection of Jesus, (ex-life of Ezekiel) animal offerings are an offence towards the atoning blood the Messiah. Therefore this can not be a propecy related to a possible third temple in Jerusalem. Still the prophecy of Ezekiel 43:1-5, points towards the second comming of Jesus. Because He will come from the Mount of Olives, and enter the Temple Mount. He (the Glory of God) will come from the East.
Please keep in mind, that no mortal man fully understands all prophecies. There are prophecies that are obvious, and can be determined to a particular event. Others can be move general, and can see its fulfillment multiple times.
And eventuelly the New Jerusalem, will come down from heaven. No man will be able to comprehend this event, neither with words nor by figures.
Hi Ivar,
You said: “We can not read prophetic books in a chronological manner. Nor this book of Ezekiel.”
My reply: When they are written that way, I think we can. A key to the order of future events that are being presented is, “And then…” “And, after that, I saw…” etc. Now, not all apocalyptic literature is written that way, and much of it is highly symbolic but I use “Cooper’s Rule” as part of my hermeneutics, “When the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense.” I didn’t just pull my thoughts out of a hat. I put a fair bit of effort into studying the pertinent Scriptures (and there are more than most people think in relation to each other on the issue). And I read the educated opinions of others. A great book on the subject is by Dr. Dwight Pentecost (great name, eh?) of Dallas Theological Seminary. It is called, “Last Things” and it is a great examination of all apocalyptic Scripture (of which, Ezekiel is considered a part). If you look up the “New Jerusalem” on the web, you will see a great many hits for the view that Ezekiel was describing the “Third Temple” that will one day be built in a greatly expanded Israel in the Millennial Kingdom.
You said: “The revelation came to Ezekiel in the years of captivity, (40:1) point towards the future establishment of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. It has to be a replica of the First Temple. The temple was supposed to be eternal dwellings of the Lord, but a conditional dwelling. Men broke the covenants, the God destroyed His own temples. Both of them.”
My reply: God pitched them out of the Land and destroyed Solomon’s Temple because Israel constantly violated the Mosaic Covenant which WAS a conditional covenant. The Israelites had agreed to abide by the Mosaic Law as a condition of staying in the Beautiful Land–and then then constantly broke it. But the Abrahamic Covenant and the Davidic Covenant were unconditional. If you recall, Abraham said not a word in the “cutting” of the covenant–that is how we know it was unconditional. The Davidic Covenant was just announced as a “done deal” to David through the prophet, Nathan.
You said” “Ezekiel 43:7 ‘And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.’ ”
My reply: This is not a covenant–it is a prophecy of a time in the future when Israel will keep ALL of God’s Commandments, including those of Messiah Jesus.
You said “Since the people of Israel continued to defile His holy name, also the second temple faced total destruction.”
My reply: I think it is much more likely that they lost their Land and their Temple for several related reasons. But it is a temporary loss–remember that Paul said that, in the End, “all Israel will be saved”) because, as a nation, they turned their backs on Jesus. There is much more that I could say on the subject but this will have to do for now.
“The very idea of God demanding renewed offerings of animals as atonement for sins, do point towards a prophecy related to the Second Temple. Because after the death and resurrection of Jesus, (ex-life of Ezekiel) animal offerings are an offense towards the atoning blood the Messiah.”
My reply: Did you forget Hebrews 10:4? The blood of bulls and goats NEVER took away sin. It was a symbolic representation of the innocent Lamb of God who would come to save Israel from its sin and be their Kinsman Redeemer. Just because you have an opinion that it is an offense to God doesn’t mean that it is. So animal sacrifice will be in the Millennial Kingdom–a reminder of the horrible consequences of sin. The Millennial Kingdom is not something I made up–it is a concept that is well developed by believing scholarship. Jesus actually preached a LOT about the coming Kingdom and He wept bitterly over the choice that Israel made in rejecting Him. The Kingdom was DELAYED–it was not abandoned. God made an unconditional promise and He always keeps His promises. Paul tells us that they are “irrevocable.” (see Romans 11:29). It is important not to meld the Millennial Kingdom into the Eternal State. The Book of Revelation separates them for a reason.
You said: “Therefore this can not be a prophecy related to a possible third temple in Jerusalem. Still the prophecy of Ezekiel 43:1-5, points towards the second coming of Jesus. Because He will come from the Mount of Olives, and enter the Temple Mount. He (the Glory of God) will come from the East.”
My reply: That’s your opinion and you are welcome to it but I can tell you that a great number of believers think otherwise. I have one question for you on this point: Why would haShem allow Judah to rebuild a Temple that was not what He had in mind (the design of Ezekiel’s Temple is totally unlike either Temple that was built) and allow them to continue to use it for almost 600 years before He destroyed it?
You said: “Please keep in mind, that no mortal man fully understands all prophecies. There are prophecies that are obvious, and can be determined to a particular event. Others can be move general, and can see its fulfillment multiple times.”
My reply: No doubt, true. But that does not mean that we should not try to piece the puzzle together–I believe that the Lord wanted us to study the words of prophecy. The Book of Revelation actually tells us that a blessing comes to those reading the Book to the Church and to those who listen to it and obey what it says.
You said: “And eventually the eternal temple, the New Jerusalem, will come down from heaven. No man will be able to comprehend this event, neither with words nor by figures.”
My reply: No, Revelation 21:22 specifically tells us that there will be no Temple in the New Jerusalem because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. I agree that it will be a day that we, with our finite minds, can not begin to comprehend. Shalom!
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Just because you have an opinion that it is an offense to God doesn’t mean that it is.
My comment:
I have questioned if you belive the Word of God, or just have put your faith in theology?
Can God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) demand blood sacreficed for the atonement for sins, after the finished work of the Messiah on the cross?
This is a yes or no question.
You can also use scritures, if you belive in the absolute infallibilty of the verse you are using.
Hi Ivar,
You did not answer my question about Hebrews 10:4. Did animal sacrifice ever really atone for sin? Or was it a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who actually “takes away the sin of the world”? (John 1:29)
I don’t totally understand why God would demand animal sacrifice in the Millennial Kingdom but I think perhaps it is simply a memorial–just as Communion is a memorial in the Church.
Here’s another question for you: Did Jesus really need to be baptized? He was holy from the moment He was conceived and even before through eternity past, in His pre-incarnate form. But He did it in order to “fulfill all righteousness”. The Millennial Kingdom is, a time when Israel will fulfill the righteousness that she is called to as the “wife of Jehovah” (see Jeremiah 3:1; 3:8; 3:14-20; 31:31-33 and Hosea 2:2; 2:7; 2:16; 2:19-20—just to name a few). The Millennial Temple is part of that plan of Israel’s faithfulness, and what would a Temple be without animal sacrifice?
I quote and cite verse after verse of Scripture–it is pretty insulting to ask me whether I “believe the Word of God” or have put my “faith in theology”. I will ask you a question: Do you value your own opinion so highly that you are unwilling to consider the thoughts of any other Biblically-based person? You know that I don’t consider the words of just ANY “scholar”–(there are some wacky ones, for sure–there are some who absolutely do not believe most of the Bible). But, I do respect the efforts of scholars who believe every word of Scripture–those are the opinions I want to read. It doesn’t mean that I will always think they are right but I will respect their sincere effort to arrive at truth–just as I respect that in you.
But, to answer your question, yes, I do believe in the infallibility of the word of God (and like a good Baptist, I will add, “in the original languages”). There has been a lot of fooling with the text through the various translations–but basically, you can read any Bible and, get to essential truths–salvation by grace through faith, Jesus is God the Son, in human flesh, that He sent the Holy Spirit to permanently indwell His children–and so on, arriving at the great doctrines of the Reformation that are derived solely from the Bible. That may not be the case as the Great Deception overcomes the earth, but, for now, we who follow the Lord Jesus, feast on “every word that comes from the mouth of God.”
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
It is not shocking, but still you being a prof of the great falling away. Your theology has blinded you. You do not even believe in the core doctrine of Christianity, but question if the Word of God can be understood and is reliable.
The forgiveness of sins has to do with blood. Because life is in the blood. Not in water, nor in juice.
If Jesus the Messiah did not shed His blood, there would not be any eternal redemption for sins. He would have nothing to offer as an atonement for sins. His death is pointless.
Hebrews 13:12
And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
The Lord of the Muslims do not demand blood. He simply forgives sins, regardless of what kind of substance that has been brought before him. Let it be the blood of goats. Sheed during the festival of Bakri-Id.
To the radical opposite: God of the Bible demands blood. Only by Jesus offering His own blood, there can be forgiveness of sins. ONLY.
God is satisfied. The work of the Messiah is finished. God do not longer demand any blood sacrefices, let it be of goats, chickens or bulls.
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Jesus the Messiah redeemed us with His own blood. Eternally. Only He can do this. Only He have done this. No other blood can take away the guilt and punishment for sins. NON.
Hebrews 9:12
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
If you do not believe this, you are surely lost. For eternity. And you are surely not a follower of Jesus.
Jesus,was the final,ultimate sacrifice,animal sacrifice is not a requirement of GOD’S temple,it was a practice of pagan Hebrews that still worshipped and made offerings to deities such as Baal,hence the destruction
Dear ROMMGIRL
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Jesus,was the final,ultimate sacrifice,animal sacrifice is not a requirement of GOD’S temple,it was a practice of pagan Hebrews that still worshipped and made offerings to deities such as Baal,hence the destruction.
My reply:
It is fine that you voice your opinions. But are you by any chanse planning to read and quote from the Bible?
It was decreed by GOD,no animal sacrifice as with the old covenant,the new covenant was the sacrifice of the lamb,christ the messiah.The HEBREWS continued to do so many rejected JESUS as the messiah,GODS wrath brought about the destruction of the temple,What was the purpose of GOD sacrificing his son,to end the old religions and bring christianity,that is not only my opinion,that is old /new testament
Dear ROMMGIRL
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
This time you got it right. Please quote Scripture. It was God who demanded that the Hebrews should come to Him with blood. Blood of animals. Life is in the blood. The scape goat was exactely what it was called.
Leviticus 16:10
But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.
The scape goat was offered to God, as an atoning sacrefice for the sins of men. Without the offering of blood, there is no forgivenes of sins.
The goat had not sinned…!!!!
Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Do never again call Abraham a pagan, because he offered blood of animals to the God who had called Him to do so. Nor call Solomon a pagan, for doing as God of the Hebrews required in the First Temple in Jerusalem. BUT after the death and resurrection of the Messiah, God’s wrath is satisfied. Jesus the Messiah, who is GOD, brought an end to God’s demand for blood offerings, as an atonement for sins. By offering His own blood. Those who deny this, are hypocritical liars.
Slitting the throat of a bull or a goat is a poor offering to the king of kings,but giving one,s heart and spirit and living in GODS law would be much more for us to give of ourselves would it not,this is the sacrifice we should offer up to him,.Animal sacrifice is just empty ritual and a sick sadistic want of man.
Ivar,
Please do not say “shalom and love in Jesus” and then say insulting things like:
“It is not shocking, but still you being a prof of the great falling away. Your theology has blinded you. You do not even believe in the core doctrine of Christianity, but question if the Word of God can be understood and is reliable.”
I could say the same to you but I do not. Insults are very poor argumentation. I would just like you to explain exactly WHAT core doctrine of Christianity I have ever denied??? When did I ever question the Word of God??? I am strongly tempted to say that I will no longer continue to debate with you. But perhaps that is what you want because I continue to expose your errors. Therefore, I will continue to point out non-Biblical error in your statements, such as your erroneous assertion that there would be a Temple in the Eternal State. I combated your erroneous statement by citing the actual Scripture describing the New Jerusalem in the Eternal State. The Scripture SAYS there WILL BE NO TEMPLE in the Heavenly Jerusalem, in the Eternal State. This is not a matter of conjecture on my part–IT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURE ACTUALLY SAYS: Revelation 21:22 “And I saw no Temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the Temple of it.” That is in the antiquated language of the KJV but all of the other translations say the same thing. Are YOU denying Scripture? Nearly ALL the prophets spoke of the Millennial Kingdom that would one day be granted to Israel. That is the Kingdom that John the Baptist and Jesus announced would be coming. It is what the disciples asked our risen Lord Jesus about in Acts 1:6. It was delayed because the nation of Israel rejected the Messiah through whom it would come, but it was and is an unconditionally promised Kingdom. What evil men tried to prevent will NOT disrupt God’s ultimate plan. The Kingdom will come. Every time we pray the prayer that Jesus taught to His disciples, we ask God the Father to send His Kingdom to the earth. Do you not pray this prayer?
THEN you quoted all the Scriptures having to do with the blood atonement for some reason. I believe every word of it–why would you insist that I do not?
You said: “God is satisfied. The work of the Messiah is finished. God do not longer demand any blood sacrifices, let it be of goats, chickens or bulls.”
Making pronouncements about God is based on your OWN theology, Ivar. Why did He require it in the first place if He knew that He was going to apply the Blood of His Son to our sins? Why did He allow it to continue for several decades after the Resurrection? Are you so very sure that you really know the mind of God? Are you really so sure that “the work of the Messiah is finished”?? Will He not bring in His promised Kingdom? “For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?” (1 Corinthians 2:16a). The Apostle Paul was, in that passage, scolding the Corinthians for internal strife, squabbling and tensions in the church of Corinth. Then he tells them that we have the mind of Christ (which should bring peace on the congregations of those who follow Him).
For the LAST TIME–I believe EVERY word of SCRIPTURE. Just because I don’t believe every word of YOURS you pronounce ugly judgments on me. Sad.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I will continue to point out non-Biblical error in your statements, such as your erroneous assertion that there would be a Temple in the Eternal State.
My reply:
With all respect. This is rubbish. I have never claimed that that there is an eternal temple in the New Jerusalem. But there is an eternal temple in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Revelation 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.
In the New Jerusalem there will be no temple. Where did the third temple disaapper?
Revelation 21:22-23:
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp
It is not unbiblical to belive, that there will be not be built a third Temple in Jerualem, and God will not call for renewed offerings of animal blood. Making the blood of Jesus null and void.
Anyhow: Is this your way of exposing people, by jumping the topic?
You have denied the blood of Jesus as the only atonement for sins. In your theology “god” will demand offerings of animals in a Third Temple in Jerusalem. This is a doctrine based on the acceptance of ‘god” being a witchcraft doctor. Your theology is based on blaspehmy and idolatry.
“Love” is not a cosy, rosy flattering message. It is to abide in the truth. Outside of truth, there is no true love. When Jesus called people “brood of wipers” it was pure and real love for that person. Jesus called such people with their real name.
Dear Job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Are you so very sure that you really know the mind of God? Are you really so sure that “the work of the Messiah is finished”?? Will He not bring in His promised Kingdom?
My reply:
What kind of argumentative writing is this? Are so dull, or do you just looking for a quarel?
The finished work of Jesus on the cross, brings an end to the Old Testament sacreficial system. Where God demands the blood of goats and bulls as atonment for sins. To claim otherwise, is to rob the cross for its true meaning. Many do walk around as enemies of the cross, claiming God will again ask humans for blood sacrefices. Like claiming that God will demand this in a third temple in Jerusalem. They are not preaching the gospel, but reject the souvereign Lord who could have saved them with His own blood.
Ivar, you said: “The finished work of Jesus on the cross, brings an end to the Old Testament sacreficial system. Where God demands the blood of goats and bulls as atonment for sins. To claim otherwise, is to rob the cross for its true meaning. Many do walk around as enemies of the cross, claiming God will again ask humans for blood sacrefices. Like claiming that God will demand this in a third temple in Jerusalem. They are not preaching the gospel, but reject the souvereign Lord who could have saved them with His own blood.”
My reply: Hmm, sounds just like something that the Pope (as Antichrist) would say as he sits in the Temple of God and calls for an end to Temple sacrifice. I always assumed that the Pope would be the False Prophet but maybe you are right and he will be the Antichrist. Shalom.
Ivar, you said:
“The finished work of Jesus on the cross, brings an end to the Old Testament sacreficial system.”
Except that it didn’t–Paul and the other Apostles continued to attend the Temple–it continued until 70 A.D. approximately 35 years after the Resurrection. And, why did Apostles Peter and John continue to attend the Temple (see Acts 3:1)? Despite your pronouncements, God has His own ways of bringing about His will.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You quoted me:
“The finished work of Jesus on the cross, brings an end to the Old Testament sacreficial system.”
Your reply:
Except that it didn’t–Paul and the other Apostles continued to attend the Temple–it continued until 70 A.D. approximately 35 years after the Resurrection. And, why did Apostles Peter and John continue to attend the Temple (see Acts 3:1)? Despite your pronouncements, God has His own ways of bringing about His will.
My comment:
You are a liar, and a deceiver. God brought an end to His demand for blood offerings of animals, by sacrefying His Only begotten Son on the cross. Wicked men did not. Even today, witchcraft doctors do offer the blood of animals. There are even some Ultra Orthodox Jews who do blood offerings in Jerusalem.
You bluntly deny the New Testament area of grace, and salvation in the blood of Jesus only.
Since you keep on deceiving people, I will have to tell you to leave this blog. You do no longer have my blessings, to operate like a guide to the readers of News That Matters.
Dear all readers.
I have spamed job3627. If any of you desire to continue to have him on this site, let me know.
Hi Ivar,
You said: “With all respect. This is rubbish. I have never claimed that that there is an eternal temple in the Kingdom of Heaven. Is this your way of exposing people, by jumping the topic?”
My reply: On June 21, at 1:22 p.m., you said: “And eventually the eternal temple, the New Jerusalem, will come down from heaven…” I realize that English is not your native language–perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by that? I assumed you just left “of” out of your statement since you often leave articles and prepositions out.
You said: “You hve denied the blood of Jesus as the only atonement for sins. In your theology “god” will demand offerings of animals in a Third Temple in Jerusalem. This is a doctrine based on the acceptance of ‘god” being a witchcraft doctor. Your theology is based on blaspehmy and idolatry.”
My reply: Those are very serious charges–I am sincerely glad that you do not have the power to begin an inquisition of your own. You can take the man out of the Catholic church but apparently you cannot take the Catholic church out of the boy. You have just uttered the same irrational accusations that no doubt your ancestors leveled at my Huguenot ancestors. I have NEVER denied the Blood of Jesus as the only atonement for sin. I am the one who pointed to the Hebrews 10:4 quote that “the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin”. Animal sacrifice NEVER DID take away sin! The question is, what was its purpose? When you find the answer to that question, perhaps your vile accusations will fade away. The non-believing Jews likely accused Stephen of blasphemy too–before they killed him (see Acts 7).
You said: “Love” is not a cosy, rosy flattering message. It is to abide in the truth. Outside of truth, there is no true love. When Jesus called people “brood of wipers” it was pure and real love for that person. Jesus called such people with their real name.”
My reply: No–I expect that it was not love since He called them the sons of Satan as well. He pronounced sentence on them–but He was and is God in human flesh. For an ordinary human being like you to presume to take on that task, puts YOU in the category of a blasphemer. You really should read the rest of the New Testament. “…speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of Him who is the Head, that is, Christ…” I have no need of your kind of “love” it is poisonous.
I have one last thing to say to you and then I will leave this subject. You say that the Pope is the Antichrist. What you say will play right into his hands when he, as the Antichrist (IF he is the Antichrist) stops the sacrifice at the time he announces that he is god in the Temple of God. Daniel 9:26-27 describes what the Antichrist will do when he comes: “…and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city [Jerusalem] and the Temple. The end will come with a flood and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end. He will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven [years], but after half this time [3.5 years], he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. Then as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the end that has been decreed is poured out on this defiler.” And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8: “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.”
Ivar,not nice to call people liars or deceivers,and you are being very dismissive of most of us ,patience and tolerance make’s a good teacher/preacher.my earlier comments you classed as opinion yet you wrote basically the same thing after me,you dismissed it because i had not quoted in scripture,read over it again then you may get it
cool your anger Ivar,the sheep need to be lead to new pastures
Thanks for your comment, ROMMGIRL.
In reproving Ivar, you risk getting “spammed” next. He definitely thinks that he knows it all and that no one had better disagree with him. He is apparently interested in spiritually abusing others. Be forewarned
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
There must be many other sites you can visit. No one forced you to come back to News That Matters. Please leave gracefully.