The deceptive doctrine of pre-trib rapture

The New testament age begins with the martyrdom of John the Baptist. The death of John the Baptist took place when Jesus the Messiah walked in flesh on Earth.

There is not going to be a rapture before the Great Tribulation. So get ready for witness on the bumpy road ahead.
There is not going to be a rapture before the Great Tribulation. So be ready to be a witness today, and  continue on the bumpy road ahead towards heaven.

Since the Messiah demands that his followers shall be willing to give the ultimate sacrifice, no one should be surprised that the Lord did not rapture John The Baptist out of his troubles. His martyrdom stands as an example for all of us. The beheading of true witnesses have continued, and surface even in the Book of Revelation 20:4.

The martyrdom of Stephen is the second New Testament example. Standing before the religious rulers and speaking Messianic truth, Stephen was ready for the ultimate sacrifice for His Lord. No rapture.

Jesus the Messiah is blunt, when he says that all who want to save their life, will not only loose it. They will loose everything. But those who are ready to gift their life to Him, shall gain life. Paul said that it is no longer He who lives, but Christ who lives in him. Paul says death is gain. No fear of death, because death is defeated. We are all supposed to be dead to this world. The friends of this world are the enemies of God. Nothing has changed.

Paul and all the apostles were ready for the ultimate sacrifice. They all faced martyrdom, less John, who might have died a natural death.

The problem with the pre-tribe doctrine, is that the need for the ultimate sacrifice is abolished. Not only does this doctrine lack spiritual logic. It is also based on faulty teaching.

To rapture Stephen, might have left no willing witness to stand before the religious tribunal. Stephen was chosen, and he did the needful.

What should be the reason for the rapture of the most bold and truth speaking witnesses?

Neither was Jesus doing so is the past. Nor is he doing this in the present age, and why do so in the future?

We are surely not destined for Hell, and God’s eternal wrath. But we are called to witness in the midst of chaos, confusion and apocalyptic disasters. Why not?

There is no valid and logical reason for a need to rapture today’s witnesses, than that people fear death, and take pleasure in their life in the flesh. If they are willing to give the ultimate sacrifice, they will gladly enter the Great Tribulation. It will be a time for witnessing to the lost souls. Never will it be more easy to read directly from the Book of Revelation, Matthew 24 and Luke 21, and explain to people what they see and experience.

Obviously false prophets do not agree with this. That Is why they desire to bring us to silence, and ban us from preaching in Churches and Fellowships. Many have succumbed to false prophets, who have departed from the truth, and taken the road down the path of compromises.

The book of Revelation (20:4) clearly states that it is those who have been beheaded, warning others and speaking the truth, that will rule with Christ for 1000 years. Not those, who were not willing to give the ultimate sacrifice, but rather accepted the mark of the beast, and joined the persecutors of the true followers of the Messiah.

In Luke 21:25-27, you can read that even the heavenly bodies will be shaken before we shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven.

In 2 Tess 2 you can read that the last man of Lawlessness is present, when Jesus returns to kill him.

There is no words in the Bible explaining about three comings of Jesus. There will only be two.

Hebrews 9:28

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

If the last man of lawlessness is revealed after the second coming of Jesus, the whole Bible is a falsification. This will not happen. The Word of God exposes the teachers of the pre-trib doctrine as false prophets and false teachers. If you believe the Word of God, you will not accept their teaching.

You will have to make a choice.

First published Janaury 19th, 2014

Written by Ivar

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228 thoughts on “The deceptive doctrine of pre-trib rapture

  1. Hey Ivar, haven’t you heard? According to the “church,” the gentile “church,” will be raptured and go to heaven. While the Jews will remain on the earth, to endure all of the hellish tribulation. Isn’t it interesting how the gentiles seem to get all of the blessings, and as usual, the Jews get all of the curses.

    SURPRISE! Gentiles, Acts; “It is through much (tribulation) that you will enter into the Kingdom of God.”

    There is a huge difference between the Tribulation, and the Wrath, of God! We, all of us, both believing Jews, and Gentiles, will go through the Tribulation. We will not suffer the WRATH of GOD, we will be raptured before HaShem pours out His wrath on those who hate Him, and on those who have rejected the sacrifice of His Son, Yeshua.

    Why do you think that some will be asking….”Where is the promise of His coming?” These are believers who are waiting for the rapture, who asking this question. Non believers are not waiting for Him to return.

    1. hi Denise
      You said that their is a huge difference between the tribulation
      And the wrath of God. While I have not experienced the great tribulation spoken of by Jesus on the Mt. Of Olives and also in the Revelation of Jesus Christ, I have experienced tribulations.
      I have experienced suffering. The Apostle Paul wrote in his letter to the Phillipians, ” for it has been granted unto you on behalf of
      Christ not only to believe on him but also to suffer for him”. First thing in that verse is that believing was/is a granting from God on behalf of Christ. Secondly suffering for him or because of him is also a granting from God on behalf of Christ. To some sufferings
      And tribulations might look the same, but for the believer sufferings and or tribulations are looked at differently. They are something to share with Christ in. when trials and tribulations come we believers look at them differently than the unbeliever.
      The unbeliever is fearful and angry and blames God for them.
      The believer is not is not afraid and looks at them differently.
      For the believer it is a time to get close to God . A time to be shaped and molded into the image of Christ. The believer wants to endure to the end. The unbeliever blames God for what they are going through and in Revelation after going through the great tribulation they shook their fist at God still in unbelief.
      We/all of us who are believers will suffer. Suffering comes in different sizes and shapes, but it is still suffering. And how we
      Deal with it defines us. For the unbeliever it is a dreadful thing to fall in the hands of an angry God, to be a victim of his wrath. The worst kind of wrath from God is when he gives you over to the evil desires of your heart. Romans chapter 1. You self destruct.
      Thankfully to God we have not been called to suffer his wrath, but it has been granted unto to us to suffer for him (Christ) and maybe because of him

    2. @ deniseandros: “”Where is the promise of His coming?” These are believers who are waiting for the rapture, who asking this question.”

      Your quote is from 2 Peter 3:4. The previous verse states: “To begin with, you must know and understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, [people who] walk after their own fleshly desires” (2 Peter 3:3, AMP).

      This is who is asking the question – “scoffers (mockers)”, not “believers who are waiting for the rapture”.

      1. Thanks Mordechai,
        I try to keep things in context, on this point of the scoffers you are absolutely right, and I was wrong. However, I still am convinced that the rapture will be pre wrath.

        The way I think of it is this… If I celebrate the Feasts, and remain watchful, I can hope for the pre trib, and prepare for the post trib. This way I will never be disappointed.

    3. Hi Denise, That is the truth. There will be a pre-trib rapture. Read 1st Thessalonians, Chapter 4. Another fact is that the Antichrist cannot be revealed, until the church is taken out of the way. Jesus said that. Those getting saved and having to die for their faith, are the ones that come to Christ for salvation, during the seven years of the Tribulation period. Those will be taken
      to heaven after the second coming of Christ at the end of the age. Why do you think that Jesus calls “today”…the day of salvation. You should, and would want to be saved during the church age or the age of grace which is right now before the tribulation. You take a big risk waiting because God will send strong delusions and it will be easier to believe the lies of the
      antichrist and the false prophet.

      1. Dear Linda

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        The esense of the pre-trib doctrine, is that the antichrist is not known, and can not be known before the rapture. That seems to be a perfect docrine for the papacy. If the Pope is not a Christian leader, that who is he? And if he is a Christian leader, welcome to his spooky world of worship of skull, bones and corpses.

      2. I believe that the Papacy of Rome is the beast system, but not the man (antichrist). It could be very likely that Pope Francis is
        the false prophet. The Jesuits were as evil as they come. Who better to fit the bill.

      3. Dear Linnie.

        Shalom and love in Jesus.

        Since the Pope do not claim to be a prophet, how can he be a false prophet?

        The Pope claim to be both “the Holy father”, god in the flesh, and the “Vicar of Christ”. The replacement of the Messiah on Earth.

        I fail to understand, why it is so difficult for many evangelicals to accept that the pope is an antichrist? Like all the Church reformers in the 16th century understood.

        If Pope Francis is the last and final antichrist, I leave as an open matter of debate.

  2. Those who are WAITING to be Raptured Pre-Tribulation may have sin of pride in their heart Unknowingly.
    How?
    Your thought may place yourself before others, by saying that you are more worthy than others, in the Eyes of God.

      1. You said it with your own pen. God is not a respecter of persons.
        This includes Jews and non Jews. In Christ there is no difference. Why do we try to make it so?

      2. Hi Todd,
        Perhaps, I wasn’t clear enough. I was saying that many Christians are still steeped in Paganism. Many Christians don’t realize that Yeshua did not start a new religion.

        The New Covenant, or more precisely, the renewed covenant was, just like all of the other covenants were made with Israel. After which, the Gentiles were included. Yeshua said, that he had other sheep that were not of this fold, He was talking about the Gentiles.

        HaShem has always had a plan for the gentiles, they would be grafted into Israel, not Pagan Rome. We are to worship is like Yeshua did. He set the example. Most people see this as being Jewish and it is. Yeshua is a jewish Rabbi, there is no getting around it. You have been grafted into Israel, start acting like it.

        As for sufferings, I’m not sure what you mean. It is my belief that we will go through the tribulation, where there will be plenty of suffering to go around. We will not suffer the wrath of GOD, however, we will not be spared the wrath of Satan.

      3. Wonder why the Gospel is for the Jew first and then the Gentile? Appears to show favoritism to me…true He is no respecter of persons, yet He chose the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Just curious as I’m pretty sure I’m a Gentile with no Jewish blood lines in the family history, but I can’t trace my family very far back. Bottom line I’m blessed to know I am a branch on the Tree of Life, Jesus Christ. See my below comments about no real rapture named in the Scriptures but only the Resurrection of the Dead on the Last Day at the End of Time when Jesus Comes the second time.

      4. To the Jew first is not favoritism. A people were set aside as a human vessel for the promised seed to be born through. This was done to insure that the whole world would be blessed through Yeshua. So the gospel had to go to the Jew first, this is sequential, not preferential.

  3. Pre tribber scan prove the pre trib from scripture, mid tribbers can prove the mid trib from scripture, pre wrathers can prove the pre wrath from scripture and post tribbers can prove the post trib from scripture, the only one that doesn’t make sense is the post trib. Either way we will just have to wait and see and pray the Lord gives us the grace to stand firm until the harpazo does occur, In Luke 13 Jesus tells us to pary that we be found worthy to escape what is coming on the earth.

    1. The only way that one can not make sense out of a post trib belief, is if they make no distinction between the wrath of GOD, and the tribulation period. Otherwise, if the tribulation were to end with the rapture, kicking off the wrath of GOD, one could make a perfectly cohesive argument for a post trib rapture.

    2. Certainly it does not make sense. We do not want it to. Post trib is scary. It is difficult to read. Weather we realize it or not, we read what we want to read. If Left Behind was not stuck in our brains we might not see a rapture in scripture at all. But, only a calling up into the clouds upon His return. I think the article is done well. It does not attempt to give proof (which everyone seems to have) but only the danger of pre-trib doctrine. There is danger in deed for anything that makes us wait for the Kingdom to come to us. I think we can all agree that two men were working in the field when one was removed. What do I get from that? We should both work in the field.

      1. Dear Ryan.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        Certainly it does not make sense. We do not want it to. Post trib is scary..

        My reply:

        If there is a pre-trib rapture, I will not resist being taken away from all kinds of trouble. The problem is that I cant find evidence of such an event in scripture. I therefore will advice people to take the Word at face value. When Jesus say a lot of us will face persecution and even death (martyrdom), I feel we all need to accept this. And pray for boldness in the Holy Spirit to endure whatever might come our way. Amen.

    3. G-d also tells us in Rev 3 that to count ourselves worthy to escape the things coming down on the world– Like HE saved Noah and family in the flood, and Lot out of Sodom..

  4. Timing, 5th seal- Revelation 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of Yahowah, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Yahowah, set apart and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ….These souls were not ‘Taken Up’ alive and are under the alter. I wonder how long these souls have been there?.
    John 3:13 says. “No one has ascended into Heaven,accept He who came down from Heaven, The Son of man who is in Heaven” But they are there before Messiahs return,these souls have had trials and tribulations giving their lives for their belief in The Word.

  5. You have to understand all of scripture not
    PicK a few verses to make your point. It is called hermeneutics. Biblical dispensation where God deals with nations or people groups. We are in the Church age, Daniel was not shown this the 70th week (tribulation) deals with the nation of Israel. Do some more studying and don’t believe 1man using scripture out of context .http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/prewrath.htm

  6. Ivar, it is unfortunate that you would call pre-tribulationalists false teachers, false prophets and tell your readers not to accept their teaching. The wrath of God is mentioned about 198 times in the Bible. The reasons for wrath? Disobedience to the commandments. We are in the dispensation of grace. And this is in The Apostle Pauls own words. “For this, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery (as I wrote before in few words), Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not make known unto the sons of men, as it is now reveled unto His holy Apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel. Where of I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.” Ephesians 3:1-7. Ivar, we are in the age of Grace. Both for Jews and Gentiles. What is grace? Unmerited favor. It is what Christ did for us. It is the free gift of salvation. We have to believe it to be saved for eternity. There are 2 comings yet to be fulfilled. First Christ calls us up to Him Jew and Gentile believers in the gospel (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 1 Corintians 15:51-58, John 14:2-4). There are 2 kingdoms. There is a kingdom of heaven (an heavenly kingdom) which we look forward to. We will rule and reign with Jesus in His kingdom on earth for one thousand years. This is the gospel of the Kingdom, preached during the tribulation- Matthew 24:14. Those in the triblation who die for their faith, the Jews who turn to their Messiah will inhabit the kingdom. Matthew 24:32 ” And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall spearate them one from another, as a shepherd divieth His sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on His right Hand, but the goats on the feft. Then shall the King say unto them on His righ hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepard for you from the foundation of the world.” This is the judgement of those Gentiles who survive the Tribulation and whose heart-relation to God is evidenced by thier treatmento of the Jews especially during that time. Surviving Jews will also be judged at this same time see also Ezekiel 20:33-44. Study notes say of this verse in my Bible, NASB

  7. Ivar, my last message was long. I just want to say that, people don’t let anyone take your crowns! Crown of Righteousness. “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing.” 2 Timothy 4:8. My study notes say, ” One of the rewards (prizes) offered Christians , in this case for loving the coming of Christ. see note on 1 Corinthians 3:14 which says, “If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.” The study notes say this: “reward. Salvation is a free gift, but rewards, for those who are saved, are earned. The quality of our service is the criterion. Rewards are often spoken of as crowns.” “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. THEREFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

    1. Nannette, Toda Raba (Thank You) for the encouragement.

      In Revelation 3:10, the original manuscript in the Koine Greek records the word “ek”, which translates to “out of” or “from”: “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”. As opposed to the Koine Greek word “dia” which translates as “through” (as used in Matthew 12:42). Clearly, King Y’shua knows the difference between “out of” and “through”.

      It is discouraging to see those who claim to be the bride of Messiah not looking for their Bridegroom King.

      Allow me to attempt to encourage you as well: “But as for you, continue to hold to the things that you have learned and of which you are convinced, knowing from whom you learned [them],” (2 Timothy 3:14, AMP).

      You cannot reason with someone who is in deception, it must be up to the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit) to change their minds.

  8. Here is a different idea but it will make prophecy easier to understand as you read the Scripture.
    Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 talk of the Destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Following that destruction will be the Great Tribulation. This tribulation has continued until today. Today, very many continue to give their lives for Jesus. At the close of our present Tribulation will be the appearing of Jesus and Rapture of the Saints. It was the Catholic Jesuit Lacunza that introduced today’s prophecy movement to the idea that we are presently not involved in the Tribulation. This was so we would no longer recognize the Whore and Beast of Revelation as the Roman Church. Jesus coming may be nearer than we think.

  9. Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 is Bible Prophesy. Jesus was telling the disciples what would happen in the end times. The temple was destroyed in 70 A.D, and Jesus was speaking of the temple of His Body. What is the temple of His body? Our bodies, born again believer’s in Messiah Jesus, being the temple. Our bodies being the temple of the Lord. When the Lord takes His body (the church) there will be a new temple built in Jerusalem by the Jews. They already have all they need to put it up. In Matthew 24:15-The temple will get defiled by anti-Christ. “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body.” John 2:19-21 “Know you not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Corinthians 6:19, And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols” for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:16. The body of Christ is still here. The tribulation cannot happen until the body of Christ is removed in the rapture. I don’t know when that is but if you notice in the book of Revelation that after chapter 4 there is no mention of the church or the body. It talks about Saints who die because they believed the preaching of the Jews who are sealed of God. These are not part of the church it is a different dispensation called GRACE. The first part of Revelation Jesus is talking to the 7 churches. Look what He says to Philadelphia. “Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try (test) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.” Revelation 3:10&11. A crown of which I told you before, don’t let them take your crown that we will receive for looking for Jesus! 1 Corinthians 3:15, 2 John 8. Praise the Lord!

    1. Nanette.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You have started to appear like a Catholic priest. They gives us long lectures about what the Word of Goa really means.

      We who believe in the infallible Word of God do not listen to Catholic priests. No longer are we willing to listen to the promoter of the pre-trib rapture, a doctrine introduced by Jesuit priests, and preached by many false teachers in the Pentecostal movement.

      Let me repeat:

      1. That the believers are not destined for God’s wrath is true. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against them. It is a deception that the gate of the Great Tribulation shall not prevail against them.

      2. It is Replacement theology taught by Rome, that the blessings of Israel is transported to the Church, only. The horrific side of replacement theology comes in its most ugly form in the pre-trib doctrine. That there are some Charismatic Pentecostals who believe they shall be rapture to a wedding party in heaven, while Jews shall be left behind to preach the gospel to the antichrists.

      3.The Jews have always preached the gospel, from 30.A.D onwards. There have always been a remnant of God willing to identify the antichrist, and who have been loyal to the Messiah to the point of death. There have always been false teachers, who have taught the demonic doctrines taught by the antichrist in Rome.

      Repent, and believe the infallible Word of God.

      1. Good Morning Ivar,

        There is a huge portion of the “church,” who have found there own god. Problem is, it is not the GOD of Jacob. The corrupt Catholic Church, chooses to celebrate their Pagan holidays, they continue to venerate fleshly, wicked men, and to give cover to the wicked. No Catholic can deny what history has proven. The stench of their guilt reaches the heavens.

        If we were to look at some of the most recent events; the Catholic Church has made a very public apology to the jewish people, and to Israel, for their participation in the holocaust. Does anyone really believe that the true church of Yeshua would have engaged in this barbarism? Would the true church pray to wood and stone? Would Yeshua’s church give cover, and then have to publicly repent for homosexual assault on young innocent boys?

        Think of the blasphemy that they are guilty of, by parading their evil church around, and proclaiming it to be HaShems?

        In Thessalonians, it says….they are condemned, because they loved not the truth, but instead, took pleasure in unrighteousness.
        They hear the truth, and then reject it. They are like the proverbial dogs, who return to their own vomit.

        Sometimes it seems as though you are beating a dead horse. The ears of many are closed, and they turn their eyes away from truth. They actually hate the GOD of Israel. They reject His word, and instead choose to defend, and to support one of the most evil organizations to ever exist, the Catholic Church.

        They promote their own god, and their high priest, the pope, has embraced another satanic organization, Islam. Google, the pope kissing the koran. I suppose it’s only natural that they should come together, for the end times battle against Yeshua.

        We are commissioned to share the gospel with as many as will listen. Everyone has a choice, to take in information and to compare it to the word of GOD, in context, and then to decide for themselves who they will serve. The onus is on them!

  10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0Yu4KF_VOZE Ivar, I took verses from scripture, not from my own imaginations. I don’t know where you get your doctrine from or what Bible you read. We have a blessed hope. Christ died for our sins. He will never leave us our forsake us. He took wrath of God upon Himself for us. I am not a Catholic or any denomination, but a Bible believing Christian. The Jewish people can believe in Jesus their Messiah just like us. They need the gospel, just like us. It is not anti-semetic to say that. I hope you will listen to Dave Hunt explain. I wrote this in love not in anger. We are suppose to edify one another in truth, thy Word is Truth!. Praise the Lord!

    1. Dear nanette.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You are mixing up the topics. This is not a matter of the Jews being in need the gospel or not, They do.

      This is about the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture. Based on a faulty Jesuit launched ideology of those who are not able, nor are willing to bell the antichrist, shall receive a premium of a wedding party in Heaven.

      This is basically a Jesuit’s premium for not saying that the Pope is THE or AN antichrist. If HE is, do not expect anyone else to walk into Jerusalem, being hailed like the “prince of peace”.

      The Pope claims to be God, the “Very Holy father”. The Word of God is infallible. Likewise the Pope, who is claimed to be INFALLIBLE in all matters of how to understand the scripture. INTERESTING. The Pope has replaced God, he is in place of God. An anti-God. There is no other candidate who can fulfill the prophecies of being the present and last man of lawlessness.

      And the rest of us, including my self gets ready to both face the antichrist, and to witness to both Jews and gentiles. In the middle of great apocalyptic events, and martyrdom of the true witnesses. As we are called to. Ready for action, and whatever has been permitted from above.

      Not scared of facing the ultimate sacrifice, knowing that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against us.

      1. Dear Lynda

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        The antichrist has to be jewish and be from the tribe of Judah. The pope is neither.

        My comment:

        Not at all. The antichrist will compromise the Jewish people. A “false peacemaker”, who they will have to accept. Today, almost all world leaders brand them selves as a “friend of Israel”. With friends like these, Israel do not need enemies.

        The last and final antichrist will rule the World. His base is the One World religion, and a powerfull United Nations.

  11. Wedding: Matthew 22:3, 22:8, 22:10, 22:11, 22:12, Luke 12:36-40, Luke 14:8. Bride: Isaiah 49:18, 61:10, 62:5, Jeremiah 2:32,7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11, Joel 2:16, John 3:29, Revelation 18:23, 21:2, 21:9, 22:17. Bridegroom: Psalm 19:5, Matthew 9:15, 25:1, 25:5,& 6, 25:10, Mark 2:19 & 20, Luke 5:34 & 35, John 2:9, 3:29, Revelation 18:23. Marriage of the Lamb, Lamb’s wife: Revelation 19:7 & 9. Ephesians 5:25-30.

    1. Nannette.

      Shalom.

      Lets take this nice and slow. Just give me ONE Bible verse, that confirms that the Church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation.

      1. There appears to be lots but having eye they see not or ears they hear not. 2 thess. 2:7 the Spirit of God which indwells believers is taken out of the way (raptured) if he leaves us behind then you are calling God a liar because he promised the comforter and that he would never leave us or forsake us.
        Robert van kampen came up with this doctrinal position which is laden with error. The church of the Thessalonians thought the rapture took place already which Paul assures them that is not true. Study the scriptures and do not be deceived. Keep looking for that blessed hope of the Glorious appearing of our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ

  12. Okay Ivar. “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TESTING, THAT HOUR WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD, to test those who dwell on the earth”. Revelation 3:10 “Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgement. ” 2 Peter 2:9. Comparing scripture with scripture. Praise the Lord!

    1. Dear Nannette.

      Shalom and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      WILL KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TESTING, THAT HOUR WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME UPON THE WHOLE WORLD, to test those who dwell on the earth”. Revelation 3:10

      My comment:

      To KEEP you from, is not to TAKE YOU AWAY from. I will surely be KEPT FROM testing inside the Great Tribulation. Like the scorpions not granted permission to bite me. My job is to witness to all who are suffering. When they are TESTED, they come to faith. If someone is still willing to testify and the Holy Spirit MUST still be on Earth. No Holy Spirit. No salvation.

      The Holy Spirit is on Earth. Because the TEST and the WRATH is from God. If it is not, we are talking about another God, that is different than God of the Bible. God IS Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

      The God of the pre-trib rapture is the “god” of the Jesuit’s.

      You can also read about people who refuse to repent inside the Great Tribulation. If our testimony were powerful, when “taken away in a rapture”, why do these people refuse to repent?

      How can they repent, if the Holy Spirit is not present?

      Rather: God even gave us (who believe) enormous apocalyptic events, to be used by us to testify, in a bid to make ALL men honor Him. All of what is coming, is written word by word, letter by letter.

      And a prophecy by me:

      Those who do not testify today, in the post-Christian USA and Europe, will surely not testify inside the Great Tribulation. They will faint in the hour of trial and testing. Neither will those who have never opened their Bible, and do not know the gospel. The Christians in the most chaotic and troublesome parts of the World, are NOT bowing before the antichrists today, NOT compromising, and are being beheaded. A great testimony, that leads to an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and strong revival winds.

      It is a doctrine taught by demons when it is claimed that whose who do not know the gospel shall do so after the true witnesses and the Holy Spirit have departed. It is also not based on scripture, and it is not logic.

      1. Ivar, when you say “It is a doctrine taught by demons when it is claimed that whose who do not know the gospel shall do so after the true witnesses and the Holy Spirit have departed. It is also not based on scripture, and it is not logic,” it sounds like you think we pre-trib rapture believers think there are no true witnesses or Holy Spirit in the tribulation, which we do not believe at all! — removal of the Holy Spirit-indwelled church believers means neither total absence of the Holy Spirit nor absence of witnesses, whether human witnesses (new believers) or Bible witness, angel witness, etc. We agree scripture does not say that.

        Many people criticizing pre-trib rapture believers build up a fake of what we believe then knock it down with good criticism, but the fake strawman they knock down is not what we teach — it is like someone criticizing us for bad arithmetic by saying “to say 2+2=1 is bad math and bad logic” suggesting we said that when we really say 2 + 2 = 4, but they ignore that and put false words in our mouth to knock down.

        God bless you, ER

    2. Nannette,
      Rescue came to Lot just moments before Sodom and Gomorra’s destruction. Noah wen’t into the ark mere minutes before the rain. Both men went through a tribulation period. HaShem preserved them through the time of testing, just prior to HaShem’s wrath being poured out. I believe what the scriptures say. In Acts; It is through much tribulation that you will enter into the Kingdom of God. HaShem also says that He does not change, and that He will refine us through fire.

    3. nannette, when I read your verse (Rev 3:10) ‘two key things stand out to me: (1) the church is kept from the the HOUR, the whole TIME (that is what the kept from is referring to), and (2) the beginning of your verse gives the reason: “because you kept the word of My patience” which reinforces what Jesus said about them in 3:8: “kept my word,””has not denied my name” — (I only mention this b/c some people believe the church must go through part of God’s seal judgments to be tested, but this church is being praised already with Jesus’ stamp of approval before the seals have even started).

  13. You don’t understand scripture because you are unwilling to believe what you read. You think you can survive the great holocaust that is coming? Ivar, What happened to Noah and his family the 8 that were rescued before the great flood that flooded the entire earth? What happened to Lot when he was taken out of Sodom when God destroyed that wicked city? The Bible is typology. It repeats itself. These were rescues before judgement! Jesus in Matthew 24:38 says that the last days will be like the days of Noah. What happened in the days of Noah? They were eating, drinking and given in marriage. Noah was a preacher, they knew judgement was coming and they did not care, The earth was full of wickedness and violence.The gene pool was corrupted by fallen angels, Gen. 6 and so was the animals. Satan tried to destroy the gene pool so Messiah could not come. What is happening today? They are cloning, they are mixing animals and humans together in embryos, they are genetically engineering the population through food, chem trails, etc.

    1. Nanette

      Shalom and love in Jesus.

      So keep on witnessing, and stand tall. Till the point of death. If the butcher’s of the antichrists comes, use a few minutes to give them the gospel, and then tell them where to cut your neck. Say a prayer for the forgiveness of their souls, as the axe is being lifted.

      My best guess is that Paul did so in Rome. And you might be called to do the same. Be ready.

      1. Dear Nanette.

        Shalom.

        May I request you to explain, why you have linked up a video of 1 hour of 37 minutes, knowing that I do not permit external link up?

    2. Nannette, do you believe that HaShem can do all things? If you do, then He can preserve us through anything, if He chooses too.
      Many believers will loose their lives, Yeshua did.
      Would it not be prudent for us to spiritually prepare for the same?

    3. Nannette
      hi
      You said “you don’t understand scripture because you are unwilling to believe what you read.
      Rev. 1:1-3 says this
      The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw- that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who Reads the words of this prophecy,
      and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is wrritten in it, because the time is near
      Here is what I believe about all tha. If I belonged to one of the churches whom this letter or book of prophecy was written and heard these first lines being read my ears would have perked up to listen was about to be read in the letter, because it is wrriten by John whom I have heard of and believe that what he says is the truth. the fact that Jesus in whom I believe has sent an angel to his servant John to to testify everything that he saw has got my attention. I believe Johns testimony is true. If John says the things written in this prophecy are soon to take place and that the time is near for them to happen He’s got my attention. Soon and near
      to me me as a reader or hearer of these prophecys make me believe only one thing.
      they are soon and near. I’m not even considering that these prophecy’s are for any other time than soon and near.Now if you believe what God’s word says as you say that many are guilty, and lack understanding because they do not believe what the read then what do you believe about that first paragraph of the Revelation.Did the prophecys of revelation take place soon and near to when John wrote them under the inspiration of the Holy spirit or did they not. If Jesus said that they were soon to take place and near then would you believe him or not. Now if he said they were soon to take place and they didn’t then he lied. When you hear the word soon and near spoken, what do you think they mean. I have meditated on that first paragraph often and a lot. I come up with one answer. they must have happened because i am reading them 2000 years after they were written and soon and near could not possibly mean 2000 or more years into the future. What do you think?

      1. I will tell you what G-d has said: that when Israel becomes a nation, that we this generation will be standing to see HIM come.. Israel was founded in 1948 and became a nation in 1967,,we are the generation, G-d’s Word tells us true. as we are to ask the HOLY Spirt who will lead us into all truth.

  14. Dear Ivar, I am a pretribulationist and join with Nanette and the scripture she has provided in opposing your post. I am in shock at your post really. I do mind a bit being persecuted and name-called by others who name the name of Christ, but worst of all is that you made a serious accusation against the deity of pretribulationists — if we are right (and we are) then you have just called the God of all creation the false god of the jesuits, what a blasphemy.

  15. There are statements on this thread: “I believe what the Scriptures say”, and “believe the infallible Word of G-d”. For those reading this comment, my question is: Do you believe 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of G-d, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”?

    If you have eyes to see, please look at the language in which the original manuscript was recorded. It is Koine Greek. It is clear that the Holy Spirit used different words for different meanings.

    The word “paralambanō” is used while Messiah was speaking in Matthew 24:40 and Matthew 24:41. This word means “to take to, to take with one’s self, to join to one’s self”. This is not the word “apairō” used in Matthew 9:15, which means “to lift off, take or carry away, to be taken away from anyone”.

    Hence Messiah is stating that those in Matthew 24:40-41 will be “taken unto” instead of “taken away from”.

    Again, Messiah speaking in Revelation 3:10 uses another word of interest: “ek”, which translates “out of, from, by, away from”. This is part of the word “ekklēsia”, which means “called out ones” from Matthew 16:18. This is translated as “church” in English. The ekklesia consists of both Jews and Gentiles.

    Again, “ek” is used, not the word “dia” as in Matthew 12:43, which means “through, throughout, during”.

    Hence Messiah is stating that those will be taken “out of” “the hour of trial” instead of taken “through” it.

    Four more Scriptures of interest include: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10. Please read these verses.

    In 1 Thessalonians 4:17, the word “harpazō” is used, which means “, “to seize, carry off by force”.

    The time is coming where the Wrath of the Lamb will be poured out on the world, then the wrath of Ha Satan and the Wrath of G-d.

    The bride of Messiah is NOT appointed for the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10). The bride is NOT appointed to go through a Protestant Purgatory. Either what King Y’shua did was enough or it wasn’t.

    Will the bride of Messiah experience trials and tribulations? Yes, we are promised those while we are on this earth; but we are NOT appointed to go through the Day of the Lord/Great Tribulation/Jacob’s Trouble.

  16. Amen Er, The persecutors are in the church. Our own brethren who turn against us for our belief in the literal interpretation of the Bible. He can believe what he wants but I did not disparage Ivar for his believing that he is called to be persecuted in the name of Jesus in the great tribulation, which is denying the SUFFENCINTCY of the CROSS. When Jesus took upon the wrath we deserved upon Himself to save us from our sins and the WRATH to come, which is our blessed hope. “Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” Titus 2:13 “And to wait for His Son from Heaven, who He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.” 1Thessalonians 2:10. It does not say, I died for you, so now get ready because wrath is coming and I am going to pour my wrath on you. Why is the wrath coming? Because the world has denied Christ, they rejected Him, they hate him, they want to be little gods and do their own thing, going the broad way and not through the narrow gate. Just read the book of Ezekiel and see what angers our Holy God. Praise God!

    1. Nanette.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      ….Ivar for his believing that he is called to be persecuted in the name of Jesus in the great tribulation, which is denying the SUFFENCINTCY of the CROSS.

      My comment:

      You are twisting my message. I have said that we will have to WITNESS inside the Great Tribulation, about the SUFFICIENTCY of the CROSS.

      If you are going to be beheaded or not, I leave to the Messiah.

      There are many who have suffered for their faith in Jesus, up to the point of martyrdom. To all of their surviving family members, your comment is offensive and without truth.

      1. I at, you are painting with a broad brush. Just because many have died for their faith does not mean we will. It does not mean we are less faithful or are not saved. Stick to the Word of God and do not be controlled by your emotions. The Word of God clearly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church (born again believers). You have to do spiritual gymnastics to explain it otherwise. 2thessalonians 2:7 2 Corinthians 15 explain the rapture. Mathew 24 explains the tribulation gathering of aALL unbelievers for the wine press of Almighty Gods wrath, NO unbeliever enters the millennial kingdom. This is a horrible situation, that’s why believers need to stop squabbling and preach the Gospel.

      2. Dear Kip.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        2 thessalonians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 15 explain the rapture.

        My comment:

        Lets take a look.

        Thessalonians 2:7
        For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

        (End quote from Scripture).

        My comment:

        You have to be very clever, adding to this scripture to make a pre-trib ideology out of this verse.

        What a blasphemous quality added to God the Almighty: “till he is taken out of the way”. Who took Him away?

      3. Dear Kip

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        You wrote:

        2 thessalonians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 15 explain the rapture.

        My reply:

        There is no 2 Corinthians chapter 15, or/and no verse is mentioned. You must have typed the wrong verse. Please give me the correct verse, where you feel there is a confirmation of a pre-trib rapture.

  17. Ivar,
    Sorry for the mistype, I was referring to 1Corinthians 15:51-52.
    The spirit of God shall not always strive with mankind. ( Gen.6:3)
    I did not make up the verse in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the Spirit of God restrains satan, indwells believers will be removed at the last trump in 1Corinthians. Scripture interprets scripture. The Revelation of Jesus Christ points to a pre-tribulation rapture chapter 4 alludes to a change in dispensation moving from the church age to the time of Jacobs trouble. The church is not mentioned again until Christ returns with his bride to establish His kingdom. I’m looking for Jesus Christ not antichrist.
    Thank you and may God Bless you

    1. Kip.

      Shalom,love in Jesus.

      The spirit of God shall not always strive with mankind. ( Gen.6:3)

      Yes. In the eternal perspective. There will by no spirit of God in Hell. The problem with the pre-trib doctrine, is that the Spirit of God is removed from the Great Tribulation. This is a major error, and and a false prophecy.

      1. How do you interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:7? The Spirt of God is not removed in the sense that He no longer exists by no longer is restraining satan. I don’t understand why you cannot understand this..there is nowhere God does not exist, even hell.
        Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
        May The Lord richly bless you.

      2. Dear Kip.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        The King James Bible has serious flaws in regards to the replacement of the Hebrew word “Sheol”, which is the tomb of silence. The grave. The English Bible translators wrongly wrote “Hell” for this place. It has created a lot of errors, in particularly the Pentecostal Charismatic movement.

        This is the correct version of scripture:

        Psalm 139:8

        Amplified Bible (AMP)

        8 If I ascend up into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol (the place of the dead), behold, You are there.

        There is no spirit of God in Hell. There is no exit. A place prepared for those who place them selves under a curse, to be cut off and spend the eternity in the fire of Hell.

  18. ivafjeld is right…there is no pre-trib rapture if Jesus Christ was correct when He said four times He would raise the dead (bodies coming out of the ground) “on the last day.” Read the following for yourself:
    John 6:39
    John 6:40
    John 6:44
    John 6:54
    You can be sure Jesus Christ told the truth and that the dead bodies of Christians will not come out of the ground until the “last day”. The facts are clear and if you read the entire Chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians the Holy Spirit is pointing out the fact of the Resurrection of the Dead and not some pre-trib rapture. Martha understood this fact as taught by Jesus Christ when she answered the LORD with the following:
    “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day”. John 11:22. Even Daniel was given the facts, “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” What is the end of days, but the last day, and this is without question.
    The Devil is great at quoting partial Scripture out of context to tempt the believer and lead sinful men and women astray. That is why we must read ALL SCRIPTURE and not just parts and remember not to subtract or add to what God has given us for our edification and wisdom about His Son Jesus the Christ, who was crucified for all our sins that we can have forgiveness and pass from death to life. AMEN

    1. Dear gordon stamper

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      There will always be small disagreements between us.

      Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. He also rose a lot of witnesses from the tombs in Jerusalem, in the moment the Messiah breathed His last. Jesus will also raise me from the grave, so why should I worry?

      Jesus IS the resurrection and life. He is not going to become one blue day in the future.

      I believe Jesus will raise me from Sheol (the tomb of silence). Just as Jesus Him self rose from this domain. The grave.

      I believe Jesus will raise me on my last day. And you on your last day.

      The rapture will take place when the power of the Holy people is broken. When there is hardly anyone who wants to receive the gospel.Few if none who are willing to accept the truth. That is why the Messiah said” “Will the Son of man find faith on Earth when He returns?”.

      1. Shalom,
        Jesus did raise Lazarus from the grave and many others from the dead, but He did not give any their new immortal resurrected bodies and they all eventually died and went to their graves, Some preached falsely that the resurrection has already taken place which is impossible. The saints in heaven and the saints on earth are eagerly awaiting the return of Christ, at His second coming, at the last trumpet, on the last day, to receive their new everlasting bodies just like Jesus has at this moment. In fact, both the wicked and the saved will be raised on the last day at the same hour when Christ will judge all and give everyone their reward good and bad. See John 5:28 and 29. Plus see John 12:48. It is certain that the resurrection and judgment will happen on the last day at the return of Christ. Amen, come Lord Jesus.
        PS we might both die before the return of Christ but that won’t be the last day or the end of this age.

      2. Dear Gordon A. Stamper

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:
        Jesus did raise Lazarus from the grave and many others from the dead, but He did not give any their new immortal resurrected bodies and they all eventually died and went to their graves.

        My comment:

        What you claim is theological and spiritual incorrect, a gross error. Who appeared with Jesus in the transfiguration, and what body did they have?

      3. Jesus Christ was the first born from the dead with a resurrected and immortal body which is the honor given to Him by the Father. So no person beat Christ to the punch and all the saints both dead and alive await the resurrection of their bodies on the last day. We who are alive are waiting for the last day as are the saints that are in heaven, both to receive their immortal bodies at the last trump on the last day. First will be the saints that come with Jesus, and then we who are alive at His coming get our immortal bodies although second all in a twinkling of an eye.

        “But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming.” 1Co 15:23.

        It’s hard to kick against the Scriptures. AMEN

  19. Who amongst you would be strong enough to accept My Cup of Suffering, in all that it brings with it? The answer is very few of you. And yet, you feel justified when you scourge Me, through My chosen souls, who have willingly accepted My Cup.

    Chosen souls, visionaries, prophets and seers, accept My Cup, because they give Me their free will, on My Terms – not on their own. When you declare yourselves to be all-knowing and well-versed in My Holy Word and do not accept the suffering, which is carried by my poor persecuted prophets, then you do not know Me. If you do not know Me, then you cannot truly love Me. If you do not love Me, then you do not spread the Truth. Instead, you pick what parts suit you in the most Holy Gospels and then use these as a yardstick to beat My Prophets with and all those chosen souls who carry My sorrowful Cross. — yourJesus

    1. The New Testament is not an age. It is a renewed Covenant. The day is coming, says the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Not like the one (Mosaic) I made with their fathers, when I took them by the hand and lead them out of Egypt. My Covenant, which they broke, even though I was a husband to them. No longer will my word be on tablets of stone, for I will write My law in their hearts, and in their minds, and I will be their God and they will be my people. Jeremiah. 33, ? I wrote this from memory, but you get the idea.

      Yeshua came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He came to make a way to restore His people to GOD. Then the gentiles were grafted into Israel. These are the “other” sheep. Yeshua said; I have other sheep that are not of this fold. Them I must also bring. Now we also know that Yeshua said, that there is one flock and one Shepard. Yeshua is that Shepard. Believing Jews and Gentiles are the one flock.

      1. Denise
        yes, and he did make the covenant with many of them and the covenant was extended to the gentiles(the other sheep). Some think this new
        covenant is still to come, but they are wrong.
        God kept his promise as he said. The new covenant was established. it is not like the old one. the new covenant is a better covenant, who’s mediator is Christ and not an angel and Moses. Their will never be another one.The old covenant has been done away with. This is wonderful

      2. Todd.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        The old covenant has been done away with.This is wonderful…

        My comment:

        That Jesus has replaced my call to sacrifice bulls, dove’s and other animals to pay for my sins, that is wonderful.

        Still I have to obey the Law of Christ. The same lawgiver who guided Moses. Guided Him out of Egypt, and into the promised land. Who exiled the Jews to the four corners of the World, and who in 1948 re-gathered them back home to Israel. And who soon shall appear before them in Jerusalem during His second coming.

        The relationship between Israel and her God is “not done away with”. It is the demand for blood of created beings that is done away with. If you have ears and spiritual discernment, you might be able to understand spiritual truth.

      1. Dear Ivar,

        Shalom.

        The real Word of God will pierce into hearts… not merely spam filters… lol

        FYI, I am using with one email-id and one username from the beginning.

    2. Yeshau never had a stigmata. His nail holes, and the blood that flowed from His wounds were the real deal, not some cheap imitation. Yeshua had actual nails driven into His hands and Feet, and was forced to sustain His body weight on the cross, until death.

      The apostles shared in His sufferings, Stephen and Paul were stoned. John was imprisoned, and so on. They actually shared in the suffering of Christ. Stigmata’s, like Satan, are but a cheap imitation of the real thing.

      I can’t help but wonder how many of these people with stigmatas would willingly be crucified? Now that would be sharing in Yeshua’s suffering!

  20. Ivar,
    If the amplified bible is the best then why did you use the new international version uk in your article? I don’t think you really know which is best, or do you just use different bibles to prove your point?
    I’ll stick to the time tested (400+ years) of the King James Bible.
    I’m surprised with all the catholic research you do here that you are using their bible! You should do a little research on Westcott and Hort. Both versions you used are derived from the corrupt vaticanus or sinaticus texts. The King James Version is the correct version please do some more studying and may The Lord give you understanding in the matter. God bless

    1. Dear Kip.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      I have 11 Bible versions (translations) at my office. If you have one, I do not have, please send a copy to me.

      In regards to the topic of errors in good Old King James, I see that you try to close that debate. Well, one day you might be willing…..

      1. “Because you have guarded and kept My Word of patient endurance [have held fast the [b] lesson of My patience with the [c] expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth”. Revelation 3:10 (the amplified bible). b. Rev. 3:10 Joseph Thayer , A Greek English lexicon of the N.T.: The Greek which we translate “of patient endurance” paints a picture of “a patient, steadfast waiting” for someone or something. c. Rev. 3:10 Joseph Thayer, A Greek English Lexicon of the N.T: The Greek we translate “of patient endurance” paints a picture of “a patient endurance” paints a picture of “a patient steadfast waiting” for someone or something. Joseph H. Thayer: Studied in Boston LATIN SCHOOL, graduated from Harverd in 1850 (a unitarian church belief) He studied theology at the Harvard Divinity School and graduated from Andover Theological Seminary. Andover was founded in 1807 by orthodox calvanists who fled Harverd college. Andover was Associated with the Unitarian chruch. What is a unitarian? A member of a denomination, officially merged with the Unitarians in 1961, that empasizes the Universal fatherhood of God AND THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL PEOPLE. I have another question how this Joseph Thayer became an expert of Greek considering he studied Latin not Greek and he was a Unitiarian. Does not the Roman Catholic Church also say that all people will be saved? Muslims, Hindu’s, atheists? Also, Ivar, you say you have many Bible’s why would you use a Bible that has been altered? You quote from it, you must agree with it and you don’t use the many other translations in your office to get your point across. “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which is about to come upon all the world, to test them that dwell upon the earth” Rev. 3:10,The companion Bible. “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Rev. 3:10 King James “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Rev. 3:10 NASB A commentary on this verse. J. Vernon McGee, “But there is a church that goes through the Great Tribulation Period, and that is the apostate church, the church of Laodicia. What we have here, therefore, is the ocming of Christ to take His own out of the world and His promise to the church of Philadelphia that it will not go through that particular period that is coming on the earth.” Are you part of the Laodicain church people? Revelation Rev. 3:14-22. Praise the Lord!

      2. Nannette,
        Bottom line is; if you do not keep the Feasts of the Lord, you will be one of the foolish virgins. Whether the rapture is pre Trib, pre wrath, or post trib.

        Yeshua fulfilled the Spring Feast with His first coming, and He will fulfill the Fall Feast with His second coming. If you are not celebrating, and meeting with GOD on His holy days, then you will find yourself not keeping watch, and you will be one of the foolish virgins. Your wicks will not be trimmed and you will be out of oil.

        By meeting with the Lord on His schedule, you will not be caught off guard. No matter when the rapture comes. Yeshua is coming like a thief in the night for those who are not keeping watch.

      3. Amen Nannette,
        I don’t need 11 bibles I have one,God is not the author of confusion, satan is. Satan has been perverting the truth as long as man has been in existence.
        Many of your so called bibles were translated from the vatacanus or the siniaticus both of which are corrupt. The received text found in Antioch is the correct text. Here are some errors in your so called bible
        Gen. 2:7 KJV: “… and man became a living SOUL.”
        AMP: “… and man became a living being.”

        Comment: A MAJOR difference between man and beast is
        that man is the ONLY creature with a SOUL.
        Luke 2:33 KJV: “And JOSEPH and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.”
        AMP: “And His [legal] father and [His] mother were marvelling at what was said about Him;”

        Comment: This is blasphemy! Contrary to what the AMP
        would say, Joseph WAS NOT Jesus’ father! God WAS Jesus’ father! Every Christian knows this! And contrary to the AMP, God was also Jesus’ LEGAL father. Think about what the AMP is saying: If Jesus’ had an earthly father, then He is just any man. If He is just any man, then we are still in our sins. If we are still in our sins, then we are not saved. If we are not saved, then we have a BIG PROBLEM.
        Don’t be deceived by satan Ivar do some research and I pray The Lord will open your eyes.
        I have shown you proof of the errors in your so called bible there are dozens more. I’ll stick to the true Word of God the King James Bible.

      4. I heard a professor of theology say once, ” the closer the translation is to the actual time of writing the more accurate it is.
        Here we are 2-4000 years out from some original writings

      5. Kip
        Your splitting hairs. We all know that Jesus’s father was God. But we all know that his step father was Joseph. Father of a child who is not his own is his step father. When some people saw Jesus the said “isn’t this the carpenters son” their is also a genealogy of Joseph to prove that Jesus came from the line of David.

  21. “And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ” Matthew 1:16 “Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on the wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused (engaged) to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost” Matthew 1:18 Who is the Holy Ghost? God! God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.” “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Genesis 1:2. Praise the Lord!

  22. Evangelicals Use Occult Deception !

    Heard of the coming blood moons? Is the pretrib rapture symbolized by anything in the heavens?
    Hal Lindsey, influenced by occult astrology, asserts on p. 124 in “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the famous Sphinx in Egypt has the head of a “woman” – even though encyclopedias say it’s the head of a “man”! Hal’s plagiarism on that page of a 19th century British theologian is his acceptance of the occult Virgo-to-Leo theory – a “Christian” zodiac arbitrarily starting with Virgo (Virgin Mary) and ending with Leo (Christ returning as “Lion,” Rev. 5:5).
    Those who swallow this guesswork often see Ursa Minor (part of Cancer which precedes Leo) as a heavenly “symbol” of a pretrib rapture!
    Pretribs also insist on separating the “church” from “Israel” – but when you aren’t looking (or thinking) they blithely “prove” pretrib by the Jewish feasts in Leviticus, the stages of a Hebrew wedding (Google “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event”), and the one “taken” and the other “left” in “Jewish” Matthew 24!
    Amazingly, Jewishness (and even anti-Jewishness) has been uncovered even in pretrib dispensationalism’s 19th century foundation (Google “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism”)!
    The current “blood moons” craze (promoted by lunar persons including rock musician Scottie Clarke and John Hagee) is tied to – you guessed it – the same Jewish feast days.
    Yes, there’s something colored red in the future of the church, but I don’t have moons in mind. What will really turn red will be the collective faces of many when it finally dawns on them that their any-moment fly-away was nothing more than an end time hoax!

    1. Rocky,
      Try reading Genesis, and Job. I don’t have the time to go into depth with you, and I not sure that I even want to.

      In Genesis, HaShem creates the luminaries, sun, moon, and stars, for the purpose of signaling His children for Feasts days, for days and for years, and for light.

      In Job, GOD makes it clear, that it is He who names the stars, and it is He who calls them out, by their names. “The heavens declare the glory of GOD, and night after night they SPEAK.” And There Is No Where, Where Their Voice Is Not Heard!”

      Whether or not you believe GOD’s word is your own business. The entire gospel is written in the stars. A wise man would listen to his GOD and would heed His instructions.

      Yeshua says this; concerning His soon return: “There will be SIGNS in the SUN, the MOON, and in the STARS!” This tells us that we should be looking to heaven for His Signs. The fact that blood red moons, and solar eclipses, fall on the Lord’s Feast Days, is no accident.

      Again, here are the words of that famous Jewish Rabbi, I believe that you’ve heard of Him.” “The SUN will be DARKENED and the MOON will turn to BLOOD, and the STARS will fall from the HEAVENS, like ripe figs fall from a tree, when shaken by a mighty wind.” These are the very SIGNS that HE is telling you to watch for!!!!!

      As for astronomy, this is fine, it is astrology, that is wicked! Satan
      always takes what is HaShem’s and defiles it!

      As for Tetrads, these are very rare events, they have only occurred 7 times since Yeshua’s birth. We are expecting two more, very soon, and they all are falling on the LORD’s FEASTS DAYS!

      You can watch Pastor Mark Biltz, explain this heavenly phenomena, for FREE on youtube. Google, Blood Red Moons, or Mark Biltz, watch, and then you can make an informed decission. You can weigh the information and compare it to GOD’s word.
      I have gone through the whole study using the Hebrew calendar, and NASA’s web site. It is FASCINATING!

  23. Hopefully we are all ‘born again’ believers here who love Jesus and love our neighbors. “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but haven not love, I am nothing. 1Corinthians13:1-2 None of us know what we ought to know, but let us reason together in the scriptures without calling each other names.

  24. Great article among the few that brings out the clear Bible truth about the Second Advent. It is amazing how the Bible can be so crystal clear on this subject, yet many are still groping in darkness and confusion, believing something else.

  25. Deniseandros, I agree with much of what you wrote. But I’m concerned with one of your paragraphs – the one talking about the sun/moon darkening and the stars falling in Matt. 24 – which you view as important since you added five exclamation points at the end! Since Matt. 24 features only the posttrib second coming to earth, is that the coming you’re waiting for and not a pretrib coming? The current “blood moons” craze is being used by pretrib leaders to try to prove how close a pretrib rapture is. You might like to check out the qualifications of pretrib leaders. (In II Tim. 3:14 Paul mentioned to Timothy the importance of “knowing of whom thou hast learned them.” In other words, do some “vetting” of your teachers! And Googling “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” is an easy way to “vet” them.)
    Kip, Acts 2 and Rev. 6 say nothing about a pretrib rapture but talk of the sun/moon darkening which Jesus said will occur after the tribulation. Even Scofield ties those two passages to Rev. 19 and 20. An early mention of something in the book of Revelation doesn’t necessarily mean it occurs right then because much of Rev. is a vision of what will happen off in the future. Acts 1:7 talks about the coming when every eye will see Christ; is this proof that it happens then and not at the end of Rev., as even Scofield states?
    Acts 2:34-35 and Acts 3:21 reveal that Christ stays in heaven UNTIL the (posttrib) second coming to earth – something that all of the greatest Greek NT scholars of the past held to (Google “Famous Rapture Watchers”). And II Thess. 1:6-10 says that the church gets its “rest” (rapture) WHEN Christ comes to earth to take vengeance on His enemies at the second coming – so how can He leave heaven ahead of time for a pretrib rapture (which was never a part of any Christian theology or organized church before 1830)? Just for kicks, Google “Pretrib Rapture Stealth,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” and “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”

  26. Another interesting and intriguing article I found some time ago on Google is titled
    “Catholics Did NOT Invent the Rapture.” Would love to see some reactions to it.

  27. I asked Denise this question twice already without getting an answer. Perhaps she, or someone else would care to answer me.

    Denise, you said: “God’s wrath is not the same as the Tribulation.”

    Rev 14:19 – ” And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the WRATH OF GOD.”

    Rev 9:21 gives us reasons for God’s wrath. All of which are sins that Jesus paid for in our case, right?

    So why do you expect to be in that winepress with those who reject Christ?

    Oh, and please don’t tell me that God is going to make us all “wrath proof” during the Tribulation. If the Rapture sounds illogical to you. Think about how stupid that idea sounds 😦

    1. Of course the Tribulation (all 7 years, including the last 3-1/2 Time of Jacob ‘s Trouble) are wrath of God since ALL the seal judgments were opened by God Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.

  28. It’s pretty simple Phil if you compare Scripture with Scripture. First of all Christians that call on Jesus the Christ pass from death to life and will never face the wrath of God, which is the second death and the everlasting lake of fire. Tribulation is from Satan, and not from God, and God promised to keep us and fear not those that kill the body, but fear Him that can cast both the body and soul into hell. Further, there is no such thing as a separate “rapture” anywhere in Scripture. If you read and recognize the subject matter as a whole instead of taking one Scripture verse out of context, you will easily see that Paul is discussing the Resurrection with no mention of a rapture anywhere. The dead come out of their graves FIRST then those that are alive and remain get “caught up” together with those that get their bodies FIRST and the both remain FOREVER with the LORD not just a 1000 years. Jesus through the Holy Spirit said we will have tribulation, Job is a first-class example. The apostles were all killed except for John who still went under tribulation for His witness to Jesus Christ. Those cry-baby Christians that think Jesus warned about the Antichrist because He was going remove them from Tribulation are kidding themselves and I pray they won’t lose their faith when that face taking the mark or rejecting it. AMEN

    1. Ah! So according to you Rev 14:19 got it wrong, because what that passage of scripture clearly describes as “the wrath of God”, is by your decree, the wrath of Satan.

      Does that mean according to you that Rev 9:21 is actually giving us Satan’s reasons for his wrath?

      I wander what other little ditties you and your racist friends have dreamed up.

      1. Phil and Gordon.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Romans 1:18
        [ God’s wrath against sinful humanity ] The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

        There is no doubt that God’s wrath on mankind remains on all who do not accept to be saved by the atoning sacrifice offered by God.

        If wrath is not from God, that Peter used the power of Satan to penalize Ananias and Saphira. To claim this would be a horrible short circuit.

      2. Rev 14:9 confirms exactly what I said, Christians that don’t take the mark, worship the beast and his image don’t drink of the wrath of God, it clearly reads that a 5th grader can under stand, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God.” So read vs 9 and 10 together see that they will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. This is the wrath of God, not any tribulation of any kind, which the saints of God will have according to the Word of God.

        Rev 14:19 is the same thing and confirms exactly what Jesus said, “Let both grow together until the harvest [no doubt the resurrection of the dead] and I will say to the reapers [the angels] “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” Matt. 13:30. Why do we know this is the case. Jesus confirms this in John 5:28 and 29, read it carefully, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL who are in the graves will hear His voice [no doubt the resurrection if they are in their graves] and come forth—those who have done good [the wheat] to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil [the tares], to the resurrection of condemnation.”

        Trust the Word of God, we will have tribulation, but God will pay back evil with the lake of fire! AMEN

  29. Rev 9:21 regards the 6th trumpet which God allows Satan and his evil angels to roar about and destroy, but know that God, Himself, is not evil neither can He sin. Note that those who are killed all were evil mankind that were “unrepentant” but worshiped demons and idols, etc.

    It can’t be difficult to understand, “And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also; knowing that tribulation worketh patience.” Rom 5:3

    “For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.” 1 Th 3:4.

    Tribulation is not from God, but God allows it to happen even to His children. As John wrote, “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation.” Rev 1:9.

    So understand that “tribulation” happens but it comes from Satan, and God turns what is meant for evil and turns it into good. AMEN

    1. Rev 14:19 – ” And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great””winepress”” of the wrath of God”.

      Hell is not a winepress. Nothing good comes out of Hell. The winepress of God’s wrath is the Tribulation. Out of which shall come metaphorically good wine.

      Only those who either misunderstand or reject the gospel of salvation by grace alone will believe that Christ will cast his bride into that winepress. God took Noah and his family out of harms way, and he will do the same with his people next time.

      But if Gordon gets this from the same place he gets his white supremacist ideas, it’s no surprise to me that he believes this doctrine of devils. Among other heresies, that cult claims Jesus Christ to be the son of Joseph, and not God incarnate.

      1. Dear Phil.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        But if Gordon gets this from the same place he gets his white supremacist ideas, it’s no surprise to me that he believes this doctrine of devils. Among other heresies, that cult claims Jesus Christ to be the son of Joseph, and not God incarnate.

        My reply:

        These are harsh words. I do not agree with your doctrines of antichrist being a hybrid being. Do I also submit to the doctrines of devils?

      2. Hi Phil,
        The wine press of GOD’s wrath is not the tribulation. The tribulation is Satan’s wrath released upon mankind, especially on GOD’s children. I suggest you look at what is happening to Christians in the Middle East , ask them if they think that they are presently suffering tribulation? Then ask yourself this question: Why should the believers in the West be spared tribulation? Are we any better than our brothers and sisters in Egypt or Syria? I believe that we are being given a preview of what is to shortly befall America. Scripture says that we will be refined by fire, or tribulation, but we will not suffer GOD’s wrath, that is reserved for Satan, his demons, and sinful, unrepentant mankind.

  30. Hi Ivar. Shalom back to you brother.

    Yes, harsh words. Similar to those you use to describe brothers in Christ who believe a pre-tribulation doctrine as “false prophets”. Only difference is mine are justified.

    Your blog’s comments section has being infiltrated by tares who support doctrines of devils. If you don’t believe me, go to the website where Gordon got his information that he used to support his belief that white people shouldn’t interbreed with black people. Read their statement of faith.

    Your disagreement with me regarding a hybrid antichrist is (as I demonstrated from scripture) more to do with you not knowing what scripture says on the subject. So no, you are not following a doctrine of devils. You are forming opinions without having studied what scripture tells you.

  31. Phil just like your doctrine of Antichrist adding that he is a Nephilim which is wrong, your man-made pre-trib rapture is wrong, too. I am a born again, Holy Spirit filled, believer in Jesus Christ as come in the flesh and born of a virgin that was crucified, that died for our sins, rose again, was glorified and sits at the right hand of God waiting to come just like He left. Now I support everthing I teach with 100 percent Scripture and can provide more than 1 verse for everything I teach, which comes from knowing the Holy Spirit and praying for wisdom, knowledge, and understand. God gives these gifts to everyone that asks in the name of Jesus. So your banter about me believing the doctrine of devils only has your word against the very Word of God which I quote.

    Jesus said He would raise the dead on the last day. In fact, He was sure to include all Christians that believe in His name under the following descriptions:

    1. Everyone that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him and He will raise them up on the last day. John 6:39

    Have you come to Jesus, then you will be raised up [resurrected from the dead] on the last day.

    2. It is the will of the Father that everyone that believes in Jesus Christ will have everlasting life and will be raised up on the last day. John 6:40

    So do you believe in Jesus the Christ, then you will be raised up [resurrected from the dead] on the last day.

    3. No one that comes to Jesus can unless the Father draws him or her and they will be raised on the last day. John 6:44

    Thus, it is impossible to come to Jesus unless the Father draws that person and gives them faith by grace and not works, but if they do come to Jesus, He will raise them on the last day.

    4. Whomever eats His flesh and drinks His blood has already eternal life and will be raised up [resurrected from the dead] on the last day.

    The fact is plain as the nose on your face, if you’re a Christian that meets the above four qualifications then you will be raised up on the last day and be given your immortal body at the resurrection of the dead. Not one day sooner! Because all, that means all, will be raised on the last day. This is the Word of God and anyone that tries to change it will face the wrath of God, and that can be nothing less than the second death and eternal condemnation in the lake of fire with the devil Satan, and all the fallen angels.

    Now take a close look at Chapter 15 beginning at the beginning and not 3/4ths of the way and near the end to see what the subject matter is all about:

    vs 4. the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day.

    vs 12. the resurrection of the dead

    vs. 13. the resurrection of the dead

    vs. 15. we are false witnesses if the dead don’t rise.

    vs. 16. if the dead don’t rise then Christ hasn’t risen.

    vs. 17. if the dead don’t rise all that have fallen asleep have perished.

    vs. 20. Christ is the first-fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    vs, 23. Christ is risen first, then those that are His at His coming. [this agrees 100 percent with the four verses given in John 6 above.]

    vs. 35. How are the dead raised up.

    vs. 42. The body will be raised in incorruption.

    vs. 43. The body will be raised in power.

    vs. 44. The body will become a spiritual body.

    vs. 49. The body will bear the image of the heavenly Man [Christ Jesus].

    vs. 51. Not everyone will fall asleep [that is die], but will be changed.

    vs. 52. The dead will be raised incorruptible [First] then those who are alive will be changed.

    vs. 54. So when the dead have risen and those that are changed Death will be swallowed up in victory.

    The those that are slow to learn, this is repeated in 1 Thessalonians:

    vs. 16a. The Lord returns with a shout.

    vs. 16b. The dead are raised FIRST.

    vs. 17. Then those that are alive will be caught up together with those that have been risen from the dead and always remain with the LORD.

    So there is no such thing as a separate “rapture” event but is secondary to the dead being raised at the resurrection and then being changed. Which all happens on the “LAST DAY”. Or do you think Jesus lied? The devil will tell you that but we know better and to Whom we put our trust. Come Lord Jesus. AMEN.

    1. Gordon.

      On that day there will be many who say “but Lord we did this or that in your name”.
      You say you believe? So do the devils, and they tremble.

      But we know them by their fruit. And white supremacist racism isn’t a fruit of the spirit. It’s a doctrine of demons. And those, like you, who hold to such doctrines, are not to be listened to!

      For the sake of those reading this. Who think all those scripture quotations proves Gordon’s point. There are scriptures that are given as lenses through which we should interpret all others. Sometimes they are very small, like the “I am the God of” that Jesus quoted to the Sadducees to prove the resurrection.

      “””Rev 14:19 – ” And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great””winepress”” of the wrath of God”. Hell is not a winepress. Nothing good comes out of Hell. The winepress of God’s wrath is the Tribulation. Out of which shall come metaphorically good wine (read “a righteous people”).”””

      Above is one of those lenses. If you think God will send his wrath on his own children – the bride of Christ, you didn’t come to that conclusion whilst looking through the scriptural lens that tells us Jesus’ blood paid for all the sins of his people.

      God declares the reason for his wrath in Rev 9:21. If his Church is in that winepress of wrath, what value was Christ’s payment for our sins? Why would God need to crush his Church in that winepress of his wrath to get righteous people if the Church already has the righteousness of Christ?

      The Tribulation is not for the Church of Jesus Christ. It is the seventieth week of the prophecy given to Daniel for HIS PEOPLE:

      Daniel 9:24 – “Seventy weeks are determined upon “”thy people and upon thy holy city””, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

      1. Phil, you just broke one of the rules that HaShem gave concerning the sacredness of scripture.  You said that good wine will come fourth out of GOD’s wine press.  This statement never appears in scripture, nor is it alluded to.  We are instructed to never add, nor to take anything away from the word of GOD.   

        After the Antichrist is revealed, he will have only 42 months to torment the followers of Yeshua.  In Revelation 12:15-17, it says:  So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, (Israel) and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  And the dragon was wroth with the woman,(Israel) and went to make war with the rest of her children, (believing Gentiles,) those which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

        So HaShem is not making war with His children, but He does allow us to be sifted like wheat, just as he did allow it for Job, the Prophets, the Apostles, and even His only Son.  Are we any better?  The scriptures tell us that we too will be tried by fire.  Speaking of the remnant of Israel:  Zechariah 13: 9, I will put this third through the fire, “I will refine them as silver and test them as gold is tested.  They will call My name, and I will answer them.”    Then in 1Peter 1:7, it says, that the trial of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.   

        Both in 1Peter 4:17, and in Revelation 2-3, John tells us again that Judgment begins at the House of God.   God is allowing the bride to be refined, “God does not change.”

      2. Phil,

        You don’t seem to like it when I quote the Scriptures do you? I am not a white “supremacist” as you like to call me, but rather just an adopted child of God through the power of Jesus the Christ, who I claim as my LORD and Savior. You must know, “that no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.” 1 Cor 12:3. Now you know I write what I say and that Jesus is Lord, but I have yet heard you write or say “Jesus Is Lord” here when I asked.

        Now I quoted only Scripture to prove my point, which you skipped over without any comment. Basically, I wrote we who are Christians will have tribulation, which is in accord with the Scriptures, “but we glory in tribulations also, knowing that tribulation worketh patience.” Romans 5:3 Aslo, “we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass.” 1 Th 3:4.

        The next basic comment was supported by the Scriptures which clearly showed that dead bodies come out of the grave when Jesus Christ returns before those that are alive(still living at His return) will be changed. Therefore, the subject is the Resurrection of the Dead, not some man-made invented ‘rapture’.

        You can’t prove a “rapture” anywhere in Scripture nor provide one verse that supports your theory. Go ahead and take the challenge. Quote a verse and I will show you the dead rise first and therefore it then must be the last day when dead bodies come out of the ground. This fact can’t be disputed both the tares and wheat remain until the harvest. There is no sissy Christians that will escape tribulation, but there are weak chaff that will deny Jesus and worship the Antichrist. Everyone should pray they will be strong and overcome the devil, Satan. For starters they should go to the Scriptures and pray for wisdom and understanding and not listen to man-made theology like Phil likes to recommend. AMEN.

    2. Gordon, not a single scripture you gave refutes the timing of the rapture (the catching away of the Church, both dead and alive — with yes, the dead Christians first then the livving Christians is the order) being pre-tribulational. Words like first and last have meaning depending on context — just as “the last trump” clearly doesn’t mean last trumpet ever (since other trumps are mentioned for later in history), “last day” doesn’t mean whatever one twists scripture to make it mean, but has a context!

      1. Your right I didn’t give a single scripture, I gave four (4) or more. You didn’t read them. It clearly states that the dead will be raised first, then those living will be changed. What is so difficult to understand? Jesus said four times He would raise the believers that the Father gave Him on the last day. The “last day” means exactly what it says, the last day. There ain’t no more. I twisted nothing and if you make out the last day to be something other than the last day then you are the guilty person and putting things out of context, not me! AMEN

      2. Couldn’t leave your silly remarks with just one comment. But would like you to explain these three Scriptures to us with your brilliant understanding:

        1. “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of days.” Daniel 12:13

        When will Daniel arise?

        2. “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” John 11:24.

        Will the resurrection be on the last day or not?

        3. “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE who sees the Son, and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40.

        Does the end of days occur on the last day or not? If not, then when in your mind does the end of days and resurrection of the dead take place?

        Now before you put your foot in your mouth let be define the words “last” and “end” which are to be taken in there plain meaning and not twisted to means something else, like the devil, Satan wants you to believe.

        KJV translates Strongs H7093 “end” as end, at the end of time or end of space.

        KJV translates Strongs G2078 “the last” as last referring to time or of space, the uttermost part, the end, of the earth.

        Let me read your answers. Try your best not to twist the meaning of words. AMEN

  32. For those who are interested in studying the subject, and thereby forming their own opinion, I suggest a visit to ‘The Pre-Trib Research Centre.

    Below is a sample of some of the argument in support of a pre-tribulation Rapture:

    “Fifteen Significant Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming”

    A number of significant differences are found in the description of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.

    · At the Rapture Jesus comes “FOR” his own [church age believers] (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). At the Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-18) Jesus comes “WITH” His own [church age believers].

    · At the time of the Rapture Jesus comes only in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17), at the Second Coming Jesus comes to the earth (Revelation 19:11-18).

    · At the Rapture, living saints receive resurrection bodies (1 Thessalonians 4:17), at the Second Coming, no living believers receive resurrection bodies.

    · At the Rapture translated saints go to heaven, at the Second Coming translated saints go to earth.

    · At the Rapture, Jesus comes in the air and returns to heaven (John 14:3), at the Second Coming Jesus establishes His kingdom on the earth.

    · At the Rapture there is no judgment on the unsaved upon the earth. The Second Coming concludes God’s judgments on the earth dwellers.

    · At the Rapture Christ claims His bride. At the Second Coming Christ comes back with His bride.

    · The Rapture delivers the saints from the wrath to come. The Second Coming concludes the wrath to come (Daniel’s seventieth week).

    · The Rapture is imminent and its proximity is not announced by any prophetic signs. The Second Coming is preceded by specific, recognizable signs.

    · The Rapture involves only the saved of the church age. The Second Coming involves all on the earth. The saved of the Old Testament are resurrected after the Second Coming.

    · The Rapture is not mentioned in the Old Testament, but the Second Coming is predicted often in the Old Testament.

    · Satan is not mentioned in reference to the Rapture, but after the Second Coming, Satan is bound (Revelation 20:2–3).

    · No prophecy must be fulfilled before the Rapture. Many prophecies must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

    · At the Rapture only those who meet Him in the air will see Him, at the Second Coming every eye shall see Him.

    · The Rapture is called the Day of Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2; Philippians 1:10; 2:16), the Second Coming comes as part of the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31–32; 1 Thessalonians 5:2).

    1. Let’s work from you last statement first,
      1. The Rapture is called the Day of Christ. Baloney…it just says the Day of the Lord hasn’t come. Then in the next verse it says The Day of the Lord won’t come until there is a falling away and the man of sin is reveled, the son of perdition. It says not one single word about the ‘rapture’ but if you insist on calling it the “rapture” know for certain it hasn’t come yet and won’t come until after the falling way and after the Antichrist is revealed. So you will be here, if you haven’t died, and will see the Antichrist.

      You say “no prophecy must be fulfilled before the Rapture”. Baloney, I just proved above that there must be a falling away and the Antichrist must be revealed.

      You say “at the Rapture only those who meet Him in the air will see Him”. Where is the Scripture proof? I say Baloney, because Jesus said when He returns he wouldn’t be hidden (per the prior verse), but rather, “For as lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Matt. 24:27.

      2. The Second Coming comes as part of the Day of the Lord. Baloney, the Second Coming is the Day of the Lord. Joel 2:31-32 states what will happen before the Day of the Lord; 1 the sun is turned to darkness, and 2 the moon into blood. You know Peter warns us about false teachers like yourself, “like natural beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they don’t understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption.”

      Now let everyone that reads this see if they can agree with the next Scriptures that will be quoted from 2 Peter regarding the day of the Lord. Test yourselves and see if you can pray and hasten its coming or are you a sissy Christian afraid of what is going to happen?

      “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; BOTH THE EARTH AND THE WORKS that are in it will be BURNED UP. Therefore, since all these things will be DISSOLVED, what manner of person ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness looking for and hastening the coming day of God.” 2 Peter 3:10-12.

      So this is enough for anyone to chew on for the time being. If you have a specific verse to question from the Scriptures I will try and show the reader some understanding and will use other Scriptures (not my own inventions) so you can pray about it in Jesus the Christ name, I pray. AMEN

      1. Before anyone even considers what Gordon Stamper said above, they ought to consider his white supremacist racist views, and ask themselves the question. Is this a man of God, or a man who knows a lot of Christian-like words, similar to the so called Christian ministers who supported slavery and apartheid…

        Under another post title: ‘Paving the way for the Global King of lawlessness’
        on February 22, 2014 at 1:23 am. Gordon Stamper said the following:
        .

        This might help:

        The Word “Beast” and Scripture

        The word ‘Beast’
        BEAST, CHAY-AH

        The word “beast” appears throughout English written scriptures and often appears translated as simple “Beast,” or “Beast of the Field,” or “Beast of the Earth.” However, three different Hebrew words are incorrectly translated into the English word BEAST in many Bible Translations, one combined Hebrew word, and one Greek word.

        1. The Hebrew word CHAY-AH, which means LIFE, LIVING CREATURE, EARTH LIFE-EARTH DWELLER;

        2. The Hebrew word BEHEMA, which means quadrupeds (like cattle);

        3. The Hebrew word BEIR which means a BRUTE BEAST.

        4. The Hebrew phrase NEPHESH CHAY-AH, means LIVING BREATHERS, it is used, of animals, both aquatic and land, as well as hu-mans (see Gen 1:24; 2:7). The common English translation of “soul” is incorrect-except when taken in the restricted sense of “one being.”

        5. The Greek word ZOE translated BEAST which means LIVING, LIFE, LIVING CREATURE, is the root of our English word for “Zoo”.

        In tracing these words through the Scriptures, it is important to note that Scripture speaks of both quadruped (four-footed) beast and biped (two-legged) beasts. If you fail to distinguish between beasts (quadruped) and beasts (biped) in the Scriptures, you have missed the truth. Of primary Importance is the Hebrew word CHAY-AH, which means LIVE, LIVING CREATURE, EARTH LIFE-EARTH DWELLER. This word refers to biped (two-legged) Earth Life “beasts” or in other words a hu-man, or man-kind, as distinguished from the word “Adam” (Man).

        It is interesting to note that in all of the following Scriptures we find reference to a BEAST that is biped. A (two-legged) BEAST who can talk, riot, commit adultery, co-habit with man, work in vineyards, use his hands, wear clothing, cry unto his creator and sow his seed with other races. Those who have studied the etymology of this Hebrew word CHAY-AH through the scriptures, under the English word “BEAST”, know it is speaking of pre-Adamic mankind! If this truth were known and taught from the pulpits of American churches, it would stop the destructive race towards racial suicide through the mongrelizing (intermingling by miscegenation) of the races.

        As you study the following scriptures and provide an honest answer to each question, perhaps the full implications of the incorrectly translated word “BEAST” will become very clear to you.

        Was Joel speaking of a “beast” or field hand in Joel 2:22?
        What kind of a beast do you know that wears clothing (sack-cloth) as we read in Jonah 3:8?
        What kind of a beast has hands as reported in Exodus 19:13?
        What type of beast is capable of mixing or “sowing” his seed with the “seed of Adam” as described in Jeremiah 31:27?
        What kind of a male beast could a woman lust after and “lie down with” and cause YAHWEH to have them executed in righteous judgment? Leviticus 20:16
        What kind of a female beast could a man lust after and cause a penalty of death to be decreed by YAHWEH? Leviticus 20:15
        What kind of beast would have the ability to “keep the vineyard” as we find in the Song of Solomon, Chapter 1, who incidentally was Black?
        What kind of a beast “cries mightily unto YAHWEH” in Jonah 3:8-10?
        What kind of a beast would have “eyes full of adultery”, as recorded in 2 Peter 2:12-14?
        What kind of beast loves to riot in the daytime? 2 Peter 2:12-14
        What kind of a beast can talk or speak? 2 Peter 2:12
        What kind of a beast was made to be taken and DESTROYED? 2 Peter 2:12

        SUMMARY

        From these passages it is clear, that the word translated BEAST in many translations, does not refer to a quadruped (4 legged animal). The word clearly refers to Hu-man, Man-kind, a biped (2 legged Hu-man being). It is our understanding of the Hebrew, that this word CHAY-AH, clearly refers to a race of Hu-man beings. It does not refer to the Adamic race, the race of Adam (Man).

        Presented for aletheia, by the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade

        My summary: This is a man who subscribes to a doctrine of demons. He proves himself incapable of understanding the word of God. I encourage you all to read the scriptures he quotes, and see for yourselves whether his perverse interpretation is in anyway justified.

      2. Big mistake and I repent of referral to the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade. Just read their believes and I totally disagree with their thinking. Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin and His Father was not Joseph. Jesus Christ is exactly what has been written, “He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:11-14.

        Plus, and this is important, “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” Hebrews 10:14.

        Of course I believe all 66 books and sorry I grabbed “the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade” for any definitions of “beast”. I broke my own demand of not using the Scriptures to test the spirits. For that I’m sorry. But I reinforce the comments that I made with the actual Bible verses given in support. AMEN.

  33. Denise, you said:

    “Phil, you just broke one of the rules that HaShem gave concerning the sacredness of scripture. You said that good wine will come fourth out of GOD’s wine press. This statement never appears in scripture, nor is it alluded to. We are instructed to never add, nor to take anything away from the word of GOD.”

    My reply: What I did was explained the meaning of what is meant by the scripture. I didn’t add anything. If you can’t see that the metaphoric winepress alludes to the production of a righteous people, in the way that grapes are crushed to make wine, there really isn’t anything more to be said.

    1. Hi Phil,
      Sorry, but I don’t get that message at all. I read this scripture and I walk away with the imagery of sinners i the hands of an angry GOD. The “wine ” iI see as the blood of the wicked and unrepentant sinners under judgement.

      1. Hi Denise,

        Daniel 9:24 – “Seventy weeks are determined upon “”thy people and upon thy holy city””, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

        The passage above spells out the purpose of the seventy weeks, of which the Tribulation is the last week. It is not about the ultimate condemnation (Hell) that is the fate of those who won’t repent. It’s a process by which God achieves his goals.

        1. To finish the transgression.
        2. To make an end of sins.
        3. To make reconciliation for iniquity.
        4. To bring in everlasting righteousness.
        5. To seal up the vision and prophecy.
        6. To anoint the most Holy.

        Use the interpretive lenses of God’s word. Especially the one that says you are already robed in the righteousness of Christ, and not destined for God’s wrath.

      2. Hi Phil,
        I already believe all of the things that you just listed. You just refuse to hear what is being said. The Tribulation, and the wrath of GOD, are two separate events. I believe that we will go through most, or all of the Tribulation. However, I know that true followers of Yeshua will not go through the wrath of GOD.

        After Satan is revealed, he will be granted 31/2 years in which he will persecute GOD’s children. After which, he will be bound for 1000 years. If believers are not on the earth; who is Satan supposed to harass, his own followers?

      3. Hi Phil
        Daniels seventy week prophecy is a 490 year countdown from the time Cyrus
        Decreed that the Israelites could return to their land. As some have been taught and therefore believe that their is a pause in time of who knows how many years between week 6 and 7. However I do not believe this. It is a 490 year duration from the time Cyrus made the decree. Those years came and went. Theologians are wacked out who have placed a pause between weeks 6 and 7. They must do this to fit their prophecy beliefs.

  34. The rapture is truth. the difference in the church and the world is clear. I think so many get mixed up because they don’t seem to know the difference between the Jews as far a who G-d is speaking to. I have seen the churches steal all the promises given to Israel, and then throws back the ones they don’t want..even to beliving the church replaced Israel. The true church is already purifyed by HIS Blood, and G-d says, those looking up and watching for Him when the trumpet blows also purifys them and is caught up to meet Him in the clowds. In the second coming HE walks thru the Eastern gate with the church with Him, clothed in fine linen. He also says..as He walks thru the eastern gate, they will look upon Him who they peirce and mourn like for a first son. He is coming with redemption , will pour purewatet on them and give them a heart of flesh..read it as He ends up saying ALL Israel will be saved and he will punish them no more.. Romans 9-10 and 11 tells us He blinded them for us hearthen so we would have the power to become sons of G-d that Salvation comes thru the Jews and we are to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creathure to the JEW first.. I don’t hear that from the pulpit ..HE also said when Israel became a nation, that this is the generation that HE will come to take the true believers. All the signs in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are for the Jews. after all Paul say s we don’t need signs as we know.. Apostasy is world wide and because of that ALL nations hate Israel. and G-d says those who do not love the Jews and prays and suports them is cursed and does not have HIS spirit.. He is going to destroy all the nations who go against Israel..He says HE is in the wind and I think is trying to get the attention of the world.. anyway one sees it,, all Israel will be saved as it is written. Shalom

    1. Kim,

      I will comment on your positive statement, first. Yes, there is only one tree with Jesus Christ as the root. Some natural branches [unbelieving Jews] have been removed to let unnatural branches [believing Gentiles] be grafted into the one Tree of Life. However the Jews blindness is only until the full number of Gentiles come in and then all Israel will be saved. In the meantime us Gentile believers are forbidden to boast against the natural branches because God can remove unnatural branches and replace them with natural branches whenever He decides. Therefore there is no boasting, period.

      Now about the so-called ‘rapture’ there is no such separate event, but rather it follows those that come with Jesus to get their resurrected bodies from out of the grave and become united with their spirit and soul with a new immortal body.

      Now if you want to be a part of the “first resurrection” as revealed by Jesus Christ in Revelation 20:5 you need to consider the qualifications:

      1. You must go to heaven and be absent of your body and present with the LORD. That Is where John saw “souls” that sat on thrones. Rev 20:4.

      2. You must get your head cut off for your witness to Jesus the Christ. Rev 20:4a.

      3. You must not deny Christ and worship the Antichrist nor take the mark of the beast. Therefore you must go through the Great Tribulation and make a decision on whom you will worship. Rev. 20:4b

      If you do that, then you will reign with Christ until He comes at the last day to raise the dead and give them immortal bodies to be with Him forever and ever. Read 1 Cor. 15:52 carefully and see first the dead are raised and then second those who are alive get changed. So the resurrection of the dead comes first and by reading John Chapter 6 Jesus Christ tells us four (4) times he raises the dead on the last day. AMEN

      1. Bravo Kim!   I don’t mind if the word rapture is used to describe that mysterious event, of being changed in the twinkling of an eye.  I would love to meet Yeshua earlier, rather than later.   However, I think that a prudent person should prepare for the possibility of having to endure persecution at the hand of Satan.  

        Look long and hard at the present sufferings of our brothers and sisters, in almost every other nation on the face of the earth.  Why the western church thinks that they will be spared is a curiosity to me.  Yeshua suffered the ultimate persecution, almost all of the ancient prophets did too, and all of the Apostles suffered persecution as well; is the Western assembly somehow exempt?   

  35. Denise,

    Here is some more scripture for you to see that the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation is neither the work of Satan or a description of Hell:

    Revelation 16:1-12

    1Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
    2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth; and it became a loathsome and malignant sore on the people who had the mark of the beast and who worshiped his image.

    3The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

    4Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.” 7And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments.”

    8The fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun, and it was given to it to scorch men with fire. 9Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.

    10Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, 11and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

    12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east.

    Revelation 6:15-17

    15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

    Do you really think the Bride of Christ is going to face “the wrath of the Lamb”?

    1. NO! Phil, I do not think that the bride will suffer the wrath of the Lamb. Here is what I believe will happen: The beginning of sorrows, the first 31/2 years of Tribulation. Then the Antichrist will be revealed, and we will begin the second phase of 31/2 years of Satan’s attack on all of GOD’s children, a time known as the Great Tribulation. (Daniel 12:1.) Next is the Rapture. (Isaiah 60:8 and Thessalonians.) Immediately after the rapture, the Day of the Lord, i.e., the wrath of the Lamb will commence. After the wrath is finished we will have 30 days of mourning.(Daniel 12:11.) Then there will be 45 days for the cleansing of the Temple. (Daniel 12:12. Then we will begin the Kingdom Age. I ‘ll say it again, the tribulation and the wrath of the Lamb are two separate events.

      1. Okay, let me see if I understand you correctly…

        3 1/2 years Trib. Then another 3 1/2 years Gt Trib. Then the Day of the Lord/ Wrath of the Lamb.

        How long do you propose that the Day of the Lord lasts?

    2. Phil, where do you get these nutty ideas from? You have a habit of wanting to lend clarity to something that I have never said. You do not have to convince me that the wrath of God is not the “workings of Satan, nor is it a description of hell.” The wrath of God, is exactly what He says it is. It is His judgement being poured out on the Antichrist, the wicked, on the unbelievers, and on all those who hate Him. Hell is the lake of fire.

      1. Well I seem to be getting the nutty ideas from you dear! Cuz that’s what you said in your post that I replied to… 2 periods of 3 1/2 years followed by The Day of The Lord. Now would you care to answer the question I asked about how long you propose The Day of the Lord lasts?

      2. Hi Phil,
        I’ve been giving some thought to your question; “How long do you suppose the Day of the Lord lasts?” I don’t know! To my knowledge we are not told. I assume that it will commence immediately following the rapture. As to its duration, I don’t know.

  36. Hi Denise. Believe me, I do listen to you! You said:

    “I know that true followers of Yeshua will not go through the wrath of GOD.
    After Satan is revealed, he will be granted 31/2 years in which he will persecute GOD’s children. After which, he will be bound for 1000 years. If believers are not on the earth; who is Satan supposed to harass, his own followers?”

    Read my last post – Revelation 16:10-11 says “Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain, and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.”

    Those people are both living in the kingdom of the Antichrist, who is persecuting the Tribulation sants, and under the wrath of God. There is no “this then that” as you say.

  37. So Gordon Stamper says:

    “Big mistake and I repent of referral to the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade. Just read their believes and I totally disagree with their thinking. Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin and His Father was not Joseph. Jesus Christ is exactly what has been written, “He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” John 1:11-14.

    Plus, and this is important, “For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.” Hebrews 10:14.

    Of course I believe all 66 books and sorry I grabbed “the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade” for any definitions of “beast”. I broke my own demand of not using the Scriptures to test the spirits. For that I’m sorry. But I reinforce the comments that I made with the actual Bible verses given in support.” (end quote)

    My reply: So you are repentant about promoting their heretical views on Jesus Christ, but you hold to their white supremacist views – That black people are what those scriptures you quoted, are referring to as beasts?

    Do you dress up at weekends in a pointy white hat, and burn crosses?

    1. Phil,

      I copied a quote about the meaning of the word “beast”. I do not agree with their doctrine, and made my position clear. Forget about outside sources, and note you continue to call names but have yet responded to my questions nor have you been able to dispute the Scripture verses regarding the “resurrection of the dead” taking place on the “last day”. Of course the Last Day, the Day of the Lord, and the End of the Age all occur at the same time at the end of history as we know it. Thus the Last Day is forever, when Jesus Christ is revealed, the dead are raise, and judged according to their works, and the new Jerusalem with new heaven and earth are established. Like I quoted above, if you think you will reign with Christ for 1,000 years you must meet the qualifications in Revelation 20:4 which clearly shows:

      1. Souls on thrones in heaven which:
      2. Having been beheaded for their witness:
      3. Having not worshipped the Antichrist:
      4. Having not worshipped his image:
      5. Having not taken his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.

      Passed the test as Overcomers.

      It is clear as a bell that to reign with Christ for 1,000 years these saints went through the trial of the Great Tribulation and passed the test with flying colors and were not “raptured” like sissy Christians that fear their own shadow and resort to name calling when the error of their ways are pointed out by Scripture.

      AMEN.

      1. Gordon Stamper, your words quoted below expose you as a racist. That is not the fruit of a man of God. It’s the fruit of someone whose thinking is so perverse as to be incapable of understanding scripture. I am happy to debate with true Christians. I am not happy to cast pearls!

        “It is interesting to note that in all of the following Scriptures we find reference to a BEAST that is biped. A (two-legged) BEAST who can talk, riot, commit adultery, co-habit with man, work in vineyards, use his hands, wear clothing, cry unto his creator and sow his seed with other races. Those who have studied the etymology of this Hebrew word CHAY-AH through the scriptures, under the English word “BEAST”, know it is speaking of pre-Adamic mankind! If this truth were known and taught from the pulpits of American churches, it would stop the destructive race towards racial suicide through the mongrelizing (intermingling by miscegenation) of the races.”

      2. Hey Phil,

        It is evident you avoid Scriptures that rebuke your wrong doctrine…which appears to be copied from another website and not your own personal beliefs. You were asked if “Jesus the Christ, the only God Almighty, born of a virgin, was LORD of your life?” How come no direct response?

        Further, how do you expect to be so-called ‘raptured’ and at the same time reign with Christ for a 1,000 years if you don’t get your head cut off nor worship the Antichrist or take his mark? In other words avoiding the Great Tribulation excludes you from qualifying in the “first resurrection” as described in Rev. 20:4-5.

        As far as the name calling, it is written, “Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.” Mat. 5:11.

        Now as far as not saying “Jesus is the Lord” we know the reason, as it is written, “no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” 1 Cor. 12:3.

        As you have written we need to know if Jesus is the Lord of your life and if you have the Holy Spirit, or are we casting our pearls before swine. AMEN.

  38. Hi Denise. You said:

    “I’ve been giving some thought to your question; “How long do you suppose the Day of the Lord lasts?” I don’t know! To my knowledge we are not told. I assume that it will commence immediately following the rapture. As to its duration, I don’t know.”

    My reply: That’s a fair answer. If more people admitted they didn’t know, rather than shouting accusations of “false prophet”, I think the Holy Spirit would be better pleased, rather than grieved.

    Take time to consider the judgments of God that he sends on the world. Ask yourself how long it will take to execute those judgments and see the outcomes described. Then ask yourself whether or not they can realistically fit into your timeframe, which can only be a matter of days if you are sticking to a Daniel seventieth week interpretation. That bye-the-way, is cut short for the sake of the elect.

    I personally don’t think it realistic. And that’s one of the reasons I don’t subscribe to your proposed scenario.

    1. Maybe its a thousand years cause if you compare scripture with scripture Peter said to the Lord a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years and the day of the lord is his day so it must be a thousand years. 🙂

      1. No! Read Revelation, and the book of Daniel. There is a definite linear timeline in view that can’t reasonably be extended further than what is there in writing.

      2. Phil
        Daniels seventy weeks began when
        Cyrus gave the decree for the Israelites to go back to their land.
        The total of the seventy weeks is/was
        490 years. With no pauses in it. Do the math. Those years/weeks have long ago passed

  39. I will admit that when I read Revelation it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. I will not however be arguing with my fellow Christians about the interpretation of it. That is what the enemy wants.

  40. It makes me very sad indeed to see my Christian brothers and sisters arguing with each other, how then are we supposed to witness to the non Christian when they can see us fighting like this?

  41. Debate and dispute isn’t fighting O holier than thou brother. But a position has to be defended, especially when the opening shot is a statement that calls it’s defenders false prophets 🙂

    1. I am not “holier than thou” and would never claim to be. I am just a humble man who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and saviour. What I am TRYING to point out to you has nothing to do with defending doctrine, or false prophets. I am talking about trying to bring the gospel to the unconverted, who see all of us squabbling, bickering and arguing and then run a mile in the opposite direction.

      1. Hi Mark,
        This is another area where the Messianic, Jewish, Christian Congregation is more engaging. Sometimes we, the attendees, will informally gather together around a table and engage in discussions about Scripture. It is an attempt to share, and to seek out understanding, and to discover hidden nuggets that are contained in Scripture.
        The Rabbi acts as a sort of referee, and it’s no big deal to hold differing opinions. However, this is always conducted prayerfully, and no hard feelings result, but knowledge is shared, and nobody walks away offended

  42. Debate and dispute is the pretense to arguing and division. we are not called to create division. phil , you have not let up on your quarellsome name calling debate/dispute regarding this post which your debate has little to do with. I’m with Mark and also remember a previous post where i said “enough already” ZIp it

    1. Hello Todd 🙂

      Well the only person I have called a name is Gordon Stamper. That name being a “white supremacist racist”. Maybe you don’t agree. But it is totally justified, and necessary. I have indulged in friendly debate with all others, and would have done with your good self, had you said anything worth debating.

      So if you don’t have anything sensible to say…

  43. Todd. You said:

    “Daniels seventy weeks began when
    Cyrus gave the decree for the Israelites to go back to their land.
    The total of the seventy weeks is/was
    490 years. With no pauses in it. Do the math. Those years/weeks have long ago passed.” (end quote)

    I disagree. Even in the NAS translation below there is a clear indication of separations between the seven weeks, the sixty-two weeks, and the final week. If there wasn’t any separation implied, the obvious question is why not just say “seventy weeks”, and leave it at that? And that argument doesn’t even touch on the fact that there are separations required by the original language.

    Daniel 9:24-27
    24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27“And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    In addition to this, you are mistaken about who first gave that decree. It wasn’t Cyrus. It was God. Cyrus merely did as he was commanded.

    “In the first year of the reign of Cyrus king of Persia, so that the word of the Lord from the mouth of Jeremiah would be fulfilled, the Lord moved the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, to make a written proclamation throughout his kingdom declaring: 23 thus says Cyrus king of Persia. The Lord God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth. And he has commanded me to build his house in Jerusalem that is in Judah. Who among you are his people? Let them go there. And may the Lord God be with them.” [II Chronicles 36:22-23]

    1. Denise
      Hi and peace.
      Yes I agree that God have the decree
      And at his appointed time he moved in
      And through Cyrus. This is when the
      Seventy weeks countdown began.
      The traditional teaching is that 69
      Weeks happened consecutively. 483
      Years and then their has been this huge
      Pause of time ( more than 2000 years)
      This is common teaching. Probably
      Can be found in any commentary.
      I disagree with this teaching. It doesn’t
      Make sense to pause the weeks 69-70
      The only reason to do it is to make one’s
      Particular prophecy beliefs fit

      1. Todd,

        We don’t know when the “last day” will be, but Jesus Christ gave us an outline of events that must happen before His return. I’m not sure if there was a pause for weeks 69-70, but I am sure there will be 7 final years before the end comes with the return of Christ. In Daniel Chapter 7 we read that the fourth kingdom on earth will devour the “whole earth.” That 10 horns will arise from this fourth kingdom followed by “another” different from the first ones who will subdue three of those 10 horns. This “he” will persecute the saints for “a time and times and half a time.” This must be interpreted to be 3 1/2 years which no doubt is one-half of the last 7 years before the return of Christ.

        We know that Christ will capture this “beast” and the “false prophet” and cast them alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Thus, I believe the persecution of the saints will end after the last 3 1/2 years are completed. What takes place in the first 3 1/2 years? Here must be the time of the two witnesses, who prophesy in Jerusalem for 1,250 days, or 42 months or 3 /2 years as declared in Revelation Chapter 11 when they are killed by the “beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit”. Rev 11:7.

        So the final 7 years are broken down as follows:

        A. The two witness show up during the first 3 1/2 years.
        B. The “beast” kills them and the whole world rejoices with a big party.
        C. The Antichrist now has power over the saints for 3/1/2 years.
        D. Christ returns immediately after the Tribulation per Matt. 24:29.

        Now does this make sense in your estimation? Christ has given us an answer to when He will return and of the end of the age, which I interpret to be the last day and the end of time when the earth melts, the dead are raised and judged each according to their works, and those written in the Book of Life reign with Christ with a new heaven and new earth with no more sin and death all with immortal resurrected bodies. Those not written in the Book of Life go to the lake of fire to be everlasting punishment. AMEN

      2. Todd.

        The prophecy is clear and precise. Daniel 9:25 says: “So you are to know and discern that from the “””issuing of a decree””” to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

        That decree was issued by God (II Chronicles 36:22-23). What Cyrus did was obey that decree. He acknowledged that fact himself when he said ” And he has “””commanded me””” to build his house in Jerusalem that is in Judah.”

        When you look for the origins of a command, you go up the command structure to the highest place it was given. In this case that was the throne of God.

      3. Greetings Todd,

        Prophecy is given to us, as are HaShem’s appointed Feasts, so that we can watch expectantly for the signs of the Messiah’s return. If we are not celebrating His Holy Convocations then we are not keeping watch, as we are commanded to do.

        If you read about the Feasts days you will notice that even the stranger who is among the children of Israel, are commanded to keep His Appointments. PAY ATTENTION GENTILES!! THIS MEANS YOU!!! YOU HAVE BEEN GRAFTED INTO THE NATION OF ISRAEL!

        There are other ways to know when to expect the Lord. For instance, Hosea 6:2, After two days he will revive us, on the third he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

        The book of Daniel has prophetic portions in it that tell us that they are slated specifically for the last days. It is not uncommon for there to be an early, partial fulfillment, and then a later full, fulfillment. This is why the book of Daniel was sealed. When the Lord begins to break the seals, prophecy will unfold. This is exactly what is happening today.

  44. Denise.

    Colossians 2:16
    “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.”

    Or woman for that matter 😦

    1. Hi Phil,
      I just lost my whole post! And now I have to start all over!

      I have already addressed this quote, but I’ll do it again. First, let’s keep it in context. Here Paul is addressing the new converts in Colosse. He is telling them not to let any one judge them in keeping the Sabbath, in food or drink, in keeping GOD’s Feast days, or in celebrating the new moon.
      These new Proselytes have just come out of Paganism. Paul is warning them, letting them know what to expect.

      I can’t understand why it is that so many Gentile Christians are so reluctant to celebrate GOD’s Feast days.
      Yeshua fulfilled the Spring Feasts with His first coming, and He will fulfill the Fall Feasts with his second coming. Rosh Hashanah, is the Feast of Trumpets, this is the Rapture.
      Rosh HaShanah can not begin until the new moon is spotted over Jerusalem. If it is cloudy then the feast will begin on the following day. This is why Yeshua said: “you know not the hour or the day,” that it is in the Father’s keeping.
      Did you know that NASA doesn’t know when the new moon will be spotted. This is why Rosh Hashanah is a two day Feast.

      What is the next thing that Yeshua says? “But you brethren, are not to be in darkness, that that day should overtake you.” You are supposed to be keeping watch, and you should know when, and what to watch for. If you are keeping the Feasts you will know.

      It puzzles me! Most Christians are aware of the pagan roots of their religious holidays like Christmas, and Easter. They just refuse to leave Babylon. Ask yourselves; is this the best that you have to offer to your Savior and King? “Do you not know that you cannot partake from the table of GOD ,and from the table of demons?” This is exactly what these celebrations were, the worship of demons. They are treif, all of them!

      Take a moment and read the parable of the Wedding Feast. Those who were invited refused to come, So those out on the highways and byways were invited.
      The Wedding is when we receive our wedding garments. This is a picture of Yom Kippur, the day when all of our sins are officially pardoned, and the bride is spotless and wearing white wedding garments.
      Pay close attention to the man who tried to enter the wedding without his wedding garment. He was denied entry, then he was bound hand and foot and tossed into the lake of fire. Sounds serious to me! Ask yourself; are you this person who be turned away?

      Come, and celebrate with the rest of your family, with great anticipation, and joy, as we await the arrival of the Bridegroom. Trim your wicks and keep your lamps filled with oil. Or your King will come on a day that you do not expect!

      1. Denise,

        Colossians has to be read in context with Paul’s other letters of instruction to the early church congregations. When you do that you will see that Paul is saying this is new wine, that must not be put in the old wine skin of the law. It is in answer to Jewish converts who were saying gentile converts must keep the law of Moses, feast days, Sabbath etc.

      2. Hi Phil,
        I cannot say that I understand the wine skin parable. It is somewhat confusing. What I can tell you is that Yeshua was never opposed to obeying the law. The Law and the covenants are “everlasting,” this means that they are eternal.

        The New Covenant, in Yeshua’s blood is the fulfillment of HaShem’s promise to restore sinful Israel to the Father, and to bring the Pagan Gentiles into the family of God.

        Breaking God’s law is the very definition of sin. It is open rebellion against God.

        At the time that the wine parable was given there was no Christianity. It was Pharisaic Judaism that Yeshua was reforming. The law is perfect and holy. Men have created traditions that were never part of the law. It is these old traditions of men that Yeshua was apposed to. I think this could be the old wine skins. But, that is just an opinion.

  45. Phil,

    You continue to post misinformation and stir up fantasies from not knowing the Scriptures. We Christians that have the Holy Spirit, believe in Jesus the Christ who is the author and finisher of our faith are NOT UNDER THE LAW. As it is written, “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.” Romans 14:5. AMEN.

    1. Dear Gordon stamper and Phil Mayo

      Shalom.

      Disagreements should be tolerated among Christian brethren. Defamation should not. I must say that Gordon has debated in a proper manner. You Phil are accusing his of being a white racist. I can not see that Gordon deserve this kind of language used against him. Please apologize and repent.

      1. Ivar,

        Have you read the racist material he posted here on your blog. If you have not, here it is again for you and all others to read:

        On February 22, 2014 at 1:23 am. Gordon Stamper said the following:

        “This might help:

        The Word “Beast” and Scripture

        The word ‘Beast’
        BEAST, CHAY-AH

        The word “beast” appears throughout English written scriptures and often appears translated as simple “Beast,” or “Beast of the Field,” or “Beast of the Earth.” However, three different Hebrew words are incorrectly translated into the English word BEAST in many Bible Translations, one combined Hebrew word, and one Greek word.

        1. The Hebrew word CHAY-AH, which means LIFE, LIVING CREATURE, EARTH LIFE-EARTH DWELLER;

        2. The Hebrew word BEHEMA, which means quadrupeds (like cattle);

        3. The Hebrew word BEIR which means a BRUTE BEAST.

        4. The Hebrew phrase NEPHESH CHAY-AH, means LIVING BREATHERS, it is used, of animals, both aquatic and land, as well as hu-mans (see Gen 1:24; 2:7). The common English translation of “soul” is incorrect-except when taken in the restricted sense of “one being.”

        5. The Greek word ZOE translated BEAST which means LIVING, LIFE, LIVING CREATURE, is the root of our English word for “Zoo”.

        In tracing these words through the Scriptures, it is important to note that Scripture speaks of both quadruped (four-footed) beast and biped (two-legged) beasts. If you fail to distinguish between beasts (quadruped) and beasts (biped) in the Scriptures, you have missed the truth. Of primary Importance is the Hebrew word CHAY-AH, which means LIVE, LIVING CREATURE, EARTH LIFE-EARTH DWELLER. This word refers to biped (two-legged) Earth Life “beasts” or in other words a hu-man, or man-kind, as distinguished from the word “Adam” (Man).

        It is interesting to note that in all of the following Scriptures we find reference to a BEAST that is biped. A (two-legged) BEAST who can talk, riot, commit adultery, co-habit with man, work in vineyards, use his hands, wear clothing, cry unto his creator and sow his seed with other races. Those who have studied the etymology of this Hebrew word CHAY-AH through the scriptures, under the English word “BEAST”, know it is speaking of pre-Adamic mankind! If this truth were known and taught from the pulpits of American churches, it would stop the destructive race towards racial suicide through the mongrelizing (intermingling by miscegenation) of the races.

        As you study the following scriptures and provide an honest answer to each question, perhaps the full implications of the incorrectly translated word “BEAST” will become very clear to you.

        Was Joel speaking of a “beast” or field hand in Joel 2:22?
        What kind of a beast do you know that wears clothing (sack-cloth) as we read in Jonah 3:8?
        What kind of a beast has hands as reported in Exodus 19:13?
        What type of beast is capable of mixing or “sowing” his seed with the “seed of Adam” as described in Jeremiah 31:27?
        What kind of a male beast could a woman lust after and “lie down with” and cause YAHWEH to have them executed in righteous judgment? Leviticus 20:16
        What kind of a female beast could a man lust after and cause a penalty of death to be decreed by YAHWEH? Leviticus 20:15
        What kind of beast would have the ability to “keep the vineyard” as we find in the Song of Solomon, Chapter 1, who incidentally was Black?
        What kind of a beast “cries mightily unto YAHWEH” in Jonah 3:8-10?
        What kind of a beast would have “eyes full of adultery”, as recorded in 2 Peter 2:12-14?
        What kind of beast loves to riot in the daytime? 2 Peter 2:12-14
        What kind of a beast can talk or speak? 2 Peter 2:12
        What kind of a beast was made to be taken and DESTROYED? 2 Peter 2:12

        SUMMARY

        From these passages it is clear, that the word translated BEAST in many translations, does not refer to a quadruped (4 legged animal). The word clearly refers to Hu-man, Man-kind, a biped (2 legged Hu-man being). It is our understanding of the Hebrew, that this word CHAY-AH, clearly refers to a race of Hu-man beings. It does not refer to the Adamic race, the race of Adam (Man).

        Presented for aletheia, by the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade” (end quote)

        Most of what he posted is something he copied from the Assembly of Yahweh, Cascade website, which he now tries to distance himself from by saying he repents of doing this. But the two paragraphs I have extracted and pasted below are his own words, and are the reason I call him a racist.

        “”If this truth were known and taught from the pulpits of American churches, it would stop the destructive race towards racial suicide through the mongrelizing (intermingling by miscegenation) of the races.
        What kind of beast would have the ability to “keep the vineyard” as we find in the Song of Solomon, Chapter 1, who incidentally was Black?””

        Now. On your honour, and before Almighty God. Say to me again you “can not see that Gordon deserve this kind of language used against him. Please apologize and repent.”

  46. Hi Denise.

    You said: “I cannot say that I understand the wine skin parable. It is somewhat confusing. What I can tell you is that Yeshua was never opposed to obeying the law. The Law and the covenants are “everlasting,” this means that they are eternal.

    The New Covenant, in Yeshua’s blood is the fulfillment of HaShem’s promise to restore sinful Israel to the Father, and to bring the Pagan Gentiles into the family of God.

    Breaking God’s law is the very definition of sin. It is open rebellion against God.

    At the time that the wine parable was given there was no Christianity. It was Pharisaic Judaism that Yeshua was reforming. The law is perfect and holy. Men have created traditions that were never part of the law. It is these old traditions of men that Yeshua was apposed to. I think this could be the old wine skins. But, that is just an opinion.”

    My reply:

    Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

    Jesus didn’t come to reform. He came in fulfilment of the law and prophets.

    New wine is a metaphor for the new covenant. It can’t be put in the skins of the law because it is an unmerited gift of righteousness that frees us from the burden of the law. Obedience is now an act of gratitude. Not an attempt to get right with God, because that righteousness has already been given to us.

    Romans 7:4-6
    “4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

    You can’t buy what God has given freely. If you are keeping the law to be right with God, you are disobeying him by not accepting the righteousness bought by Christ’s sacrifice, and instead, trying to merit God’s approval with your own righteousness, that God says is like filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)

    Remember what I said about biblical lenses, through which we must interpret what we read. Take a holiday from the teachings you have been following, and spend some time studying the teachings of the apostle Paul.

    1. Phil,
      The law is not burdensome, it is holy, and good for teaching and for reproof. So we are not freed from the law, we are free from the penalty of death, and hell, which the law demands.

      Yeshua never abolished the law . He took it from the letter of the law and elevated it to the spirit of the law, which is a much higher standard. The example that Yeshua gave was this…If you so much as look at a woman with lust in your heart, then you have already sinned. The difference is that now, if we fall short, we have an advocate in Yeshua. This is the New covenant. Jeremiah 33, I believe.

      Those who teach that the law has been done away with will be called least in the Kingdom.

      1. Hi Denise.

        A point I missed in your post. You said “So we are not freed from the law, we are free from the penalty of death, and hell, which the law demands.”

        Romans 7:6 – “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been “””released from the law””” so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

        You, like many Christians who acknowledge the gospel of salvation by grace, are never-the-less living with one foot in the old covenant.
        THAT COVENANT FINISHED WITH JOHN THE BAPTIST.

        You really should study Paul’s writings.

      2. Dear Phil.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        THAT COVENANT FINISHED WITH JOHN THE BAPTIST.

        My reply.

        This is a gross error, and leads you into the worship of a false Messiah. Yeshua said that not a single letter of the Law would be abolished, nor would it disappear. The Law stills convince us of sins, and the fallen nature of man. The Messiah fulfilled the law by shedding His own blood for us, so we do not have to cut chicken and rams to do get redemption at the altar.

        If the Law is “finished”, than the 10 commandments are gone. So are all the eternal promises that God of the Bible (Father, Son and Spirit) have given to the Jewish people. This is the base for antisemitism, damnable, and a sure way to the fire of Hell.

        Repent, or perish.

      3. Hi Phil,
        Once again, the law has been elevated, from the ‘letter of the law, to the spirit of the law,’ is a much higher standard. The law written on stone, i.e., the Mosaic Law, or the “old covenant,” to the law being supernaturally written on our hearts, and put into our minds. Jeremiah 31: 31, “Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make A NEW COVENANT with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH.” 33, But this is the covenant; “I will put My law in their minds, will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

        Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.” (the Torah) “I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” 18, “for assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” 19, Whoever, therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom heaven.”

        Continue reading the rest of chapter 5 and note that Yeshua goes through many of the commandants in the law one by one, expounding on each one.

      4. Hi Phil,
        I neglected to comment on your proof text, of Romans 7:6, “But now we have been delivered from the law,” This is where you stopped. Continue reading….”having died to what we were held by, (sin) so that we should serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” If you continue to read on in Romans, the scriptures go on to explain in detail, about sin and the law.

      5. Ivar,

        Speaking of the covenant, it is written, “He takes away the first that He may establish the second.” Hebrews 10:9. We live now by faith and lay aside sin which so easily ensnares us looking to Jesus, “the author and finisher of our faith.” Hebrews 12:2.

        The law is for sinners, Ivar, not the saints. We follow Christ who guides us perfectly. This includes loving our neighbor and especially the Jews. So it is not a gross error and neither does it lead to the worship of a false Messiah. AMEN.

      6. The New T where Yeshus said: IF you love ME , KEEP my Commands and MY sheepe hear my voice and follow me. IF we break even one, we are guilty of all. Sin is sin,,and anyone who says they are without sin is a liar and has not G-d..WE know we are saved by Grace and faith from G-d lest anyone should boast. The law is our school teacher to show us what is wrong..and all that is said in many post above, my heart grieves as the church did not listen to Paul in Romans and take the gospel to the JEW first..

  47. Phil,

    You didn’t answer my last post where it was shown by Scripture that we are not under the law and we no longer try to keep the feast days, nor is it possible to keep the Sabbath. “Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.” Exodus 35:2. Did you light a fire, turn on the stove, or flip the electricity on the Sabbath? When was the last time you went to Jerusalem for the Day of Atonement? Go ahead a keep the law Phil and make sure you don’t fail in the least part, or you fail in all. Don’t worry if you don’t keep track because the Lord has a perfect recordkeeping system for those that are under the law and think they can keep it. AMEN

    1. I did answer you. I said “More or less what I said. So what’s your problem?”

      I think you have become confused. Your questions should be directed toward Denise.

    2. Dear Gordon.

      Shalom.

      It is true that we are lo longer under the law, but under grace. But it can never be wrong to keep the Law. We are not lawbreakers, but understand that it is impossible to become righteous by keeping 600-700 laws. But we upheld the Law, and enjoy celebrating the feasts.

      1. Ivar,

        Of course we are saved by grace and then the Holy Spirit leads us in living a holy life. Just wanted to make it clear that keeping the law doesn’t make us righteous, otherwise we could boast. When saved by grace we praise the Lord for helping us live to complete the works the LORD has provided a path for us to do. Surely the LORD Jesus Christ celebrated the Feasts and He is the one that celebrates them perfectly. We are free from the law by grace, but not free to kill or hate our neighbor. The law is important to show we are sinners and need Jesus Christ to save us. Of course this is what the Holy Spirit shows us and I am just trying to witness as I seek His direction. We are not lawless rebels thanks be to God. AMEN

      2. James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

        Exodus 35:1-2 “Moses assembled the whole Israelite community and said to them, “These are the things the Lord has commanded you to do: 2For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of Sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death. 3Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”

        I hope you law keepers didn’t get too cold this winter 🙂

      3. Hi Ivar, We have always been under grace.  “And Noah found grace in the eyes of God.”  Man has never been saved by anything but, God’s grace.  Grace is not a new thing.  The precious blood of Yeshua paid the price for our sins.  Our part is faith in God’s promises, and obedience to His law.  It is true that there are times when we don’t keep the law perfectly, which is why we have as our advocate, before the Father,  Yeshua, who kept the law perfectly, and became the perfect sacrificial Lamb, the one without spot or blemish, to be the payment for our sins.  

  48. We obey the law because we want to, it obviously does not stop us from sinning, hence Jesus sacrifice on the cross, because the law was deemed insufficient to obtain right-standing with God. We are not redeemed by keeping the commandments, only through Christ.

  49. Hi Ivar. Blessings back to you brother.

    You said: “Dear Phil.

    Shalom, and love in Jesus.

    You wrote:

    THAT COVENANT FINISHED WITH JOHN THE BAPTIST.

    My reply.

    This is a gross error, and leads you into the worship of a false Messiah. Yeshua said that not a single letter of the Law would be abolished, nor would it disappear. The Law stills convince us of sins, and the fallen nature of man. The Messiah fulfilled the law by shedding His own blood for us, so we do not have to cut chicken and rams to do get redemption at the altar.

    If the Law is “finished”, than the 10 commandments are gone. So are all the eternal promises that God of the Bible (Father, Son and Spirit) have given to the Jewish people. This is the base for anti-Semitism, damnable, and a sure way to the fire of Hell.

    Repent, or perish.” (end quote)

    My reply: Don’t blame me, I wasn’t the first to say it…

    Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.”

    Luke is speaking of the old covenant (the law and the prophets). The one given to Moses, as being of the past (until John).

    Hebrews 9:15 “For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Did you get that? “A NEW COVENANT”. You can’t have two covenants in operation at the same time. This one pays for our transgressions committed under the first covenant.

    Romans 7:6 – “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been “””released from the law””” so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

    Oh! So we are “RELEASED FROM THE LAW”. Why then do you insist on being bound by it?

    That new covenant also applies to the Jewish people. The law and the prophets are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And those who will receive him will receive those eternal promises through him, because he is the promise.

    Incidentally, although I despise anti-Semitism, and all other forms of racism for that matter, it isn’t a sure way to the fire of hell. Only the rejection of Jesus Christ’s free offer of salvation is a sure way to that place. Although, having said that, I do question which Jesus is being followed by people who call themselves Christians whilst holding those views!

    So the question is: are you living under the old covenant, or under the new one?

    Repent or perish? Nah…Chill out dude. We’ve been given eternal life in Christ. Perishing isn’t part of the deal 🙂

    1. Dear Phil.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Lets take a fresh look:

      Luke 16:16

      Amplified Bible (AMP)

      16 Until John came, there were the Law and the Prophets; since then the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone strives violently to go in [would force his [a]own way rather than God’s way into it].

      (end of scripture).

      The is absolutely nothing here that claims to be the end of the Law. Jesus is appearing in flesh, inline with the Law and the Prophetic Word. Now, the good news is Jesus fulfilling the Law. Not abolishing it, setting it a side, or canceling the Law.

      The Messiah is launching a NEW (better) deal with mankind. In stead of atoning for our sins with blood of animals, and we having to do this on a regular basis, He offers His OWN BLOOD, once and for all, as atonement for sins.

      This is the basis for the better deal, the mercy and grace we have received by faith in the Messiah.

      Please read Jeremiah 31 all over again. God has for His own sake, decided to IMPROVE the Law that requires our atonement for sins, with the blood of the Lamb of God. The new deal, is first and foremost a deal with Israel, the Jewish people. But also covers the pagans, that have left paganism behind, and enlarged Israel, and become Children of the God of Israel.

      1. Hi Ivar, I gave you more than one scripture to prove my point. All you have done is placed your own interpretation on Luke 16:16 in isolation to those other scriptures.

        How about looking at that scripture again through the lens of Romans 7:6 – “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been “””released from the law””” so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

        Luke 16:16 now means The law was until John, but we have been released from it.

        And that interpretation isn’t affected by a person who [would force his [a]own way rather than God’s way into it] If that is a correct way to interpret what is said.

  50. Ivar,

    Again, we uphold God’s Law and man’s law, as long as it doesn’t deny Jesus Christ. We are not under the law and the first covenant has been replaced by the second and is removed. We live by faith and thus love God and our neighbor as ourselves. Not one jot or tittle has been erased but it applies to sinners not the saints. Jesus both starts and finishes our faith. So stop thinking Jesus starts it and then we finish it by following the law. It ain’t faith that way, but works, and no man will be saved by works or following the law. AMEN.

    1. In other words, we follow Christ and not the Law. If you think there is no difference then it was not necessary for Jesus Christ to come and save us. Perish the thought! AMEN

  51. Hi Ivar,
    Someone stated that “we serve Christ and not the law.” My reply is this: Yeshua said that He is the Word made flesh.” Does the word of GOD not contain the Law?

    1. Dear deniseandros

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      The concept of “Replacement theology” leads us into an ideology where the “Messiah” has replaced the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

      Since the true Jesus of the Bible IS the Word of God, the false Messiah ca not only be the author of the New Testament. We are told by false teachers that the Old Testament has passed away.

      It is sad that so many “Christians” have been deceived. And when we try to correct them, the spirit that control them refuse to lead them into repentance. Some pagans will listen, and become proselytes to Judaism, like Ruth. She embraced the true Jewish faith. The true Judaism becomes complete, when the Messiah is revealed and understood.

      We are all in need of the Law as our guide, but do no longer need to do what the law requires in regards to personal sacrifices of blood for our sins. And the death penalty for sins are abolished for all who believe in the Messiah, since He took the penalty on Him self. The Spirit of God use the Law to convince us of sins. In this way, the Law is written on our heart.

      When I read the Torah and the Tanakh, I can see grace from A to Z. Man have always been saved by mercy and grace. The Law was given to educate the Jewish people, and make them convicted about sin.

      Let me give you an example:

      We only comes to know that sex with an animal is sin, by reading and obeying the Law. If the law is made null and void, man will quickly return back to paganism. We all can see this. Those who live in darkness, goes from bad to worse. Their deeds of darkness is even done in the name of “Jesus”.

      1. You know what Ivar? No matter how hard you try to be a Jew, you will always be a Gentile that was grafted into the vine that is Christ (He is The Commonwealth of Israel). And you will always have the apostle Paul telling you there is no need for you to be circumcised in the flesh. So you are going to have a lot of explaining to do, as to why you didn’t imitate the man, who through the Holy spirit, said IMITATE ME!

      2. Dear Phil.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        So you are going to have a lot of explaining to do, as to why you didn’t imitate the man, who through the Holy spirit, said IMITATE ME!

        My reply:

        Well and good. Lets take a look at the life of the Messiah, and Do as He did!….Jesus was presented in the Temple. He celebrated Sabbath on Friday evenings, was raised in a Jewish family. He preached in the Synagogues, and read from the Old Testament, and said: – – All that is written here, is about me!. He eat the Passover dinner with his students……

        Do you want me to continue?….

      3. Shalom Ivar,
        Are you getting ready for Purim? Passover is right around the corner as well. I know that you have heard about the blood red moons, i.e., Tetrads that are occurring on the Lords Feast days. If you haven’t just go to youtube Mark Biltz, tetrads. Very interesting stuff.

        I find that as the day of the Lord approaches that more and more Christians are turning against Israel. This trend is a bit unsettling. I also noticed that Catholics are becoming more supportive of the Pope and the Catholic Church. This is just weird, considering all of the signs of the Messiah’s return. You would think that they would be being drawn in the opposite direction.

        I’m at work so I have to go. Sorry to be so abrupt.
        Denise

      4. Dear deniseandros

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        I have been in Israel this week, and have just celebrated Sabbath with a mixed group of secular and religious Jews. They all respected me as a “Meshianim”, and listen to my viewpoint on why I feel Yeshua is the Messiah. All of us looking forward for Purim. It is a grand opportunity for all Evangelical Christians to stay united with the Jewish people.

      5. Gal.4:8
        Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain. Paul was talking specifically here to Jewish believers in Galatia.
        Look at preceding verses. 4 but when the fullness of time had come God sent forth his son, born of woman under the law to redeem those under the law (Jews) so that we ( Paul and those whom he is speaking to) might receive adoption as sons
        And because you are sons,God has sent his spirit into our hearts, crying Abba !
        Father!. So you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir through God.
        No question he is speaking to Jewish believers at Galatia.
        In chapter four Paul gives an illustration of Hagar and Sarah. He says these women are two covenants, or represent two covenants those being obviously the old covenant
        And the new covenant Sarah being the old covenant is Mt sinai. she corresponds to the present Jerusalem for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free and she is our mother
        Now you brothers( Jewish believers and gentile believers) like Issac are children of promise. But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh (Ishmael)
        Persecuted him (Issac) who was born according to the spirit, so also it is now(at the time of this writing)
        But what does the scripture say? Cast out the slave woman(old covenant) and her son
        For the son of the slave woman (old covenant) will not inherit with the son of the free woman(new covenant). So brothers ( believing Jews mostly at the time and believing Gentiles) we are not the children of the slave woman (old covenant) but of the free
        Woman(new covenant) an excellent allegory by the apostle Paul who understood that
        The old covenant is no longer in effect for those who are sons by adoption and children of the free woman. Those who hold on to old covenant ways are not children
        Of the free woman nor are they adopted as sons. The difference between the old covenant and the new is not that a blood sacrifice from an animal is no longer needed to forgive sins but more. If anyone (Jew or Gentile) is in Christ he is a new creation.
        The OLD has passed away; behold the NEW has come. To hold onto the old covenant is to shrink back. If one does this the writer of Hebrews says their is nothing left for you. Live in the spirit. Gal.5:18 but if you are led by the spirit you are not under the law.

  52. A fire that is started prior to the Sabbath, can continue to burn. Second, I don’t look to the law for my salvation, I look to Yeshua, alone. If I were to try to attain righteousness by obedience to the law, then I would be judged by the law, and found guilty. Thankfully, I won’t have to do that.
    You said; “I hope all of you law keepers will keep warm this winter.” Why do you mock your brothers and sisters who believe that GOD’s commandments are still in effect?

    1. It’s not mockery Denise, it’s called harmless banter. It’s a tongue in cheek way of saying, ‘which one of you wouldn’t light a fire on the Sabbath if you came home with the kids, to a cold house in the middle of an Alaskan winter?’ – It’s a similar question to that Jesus asked about rescuing a sheep on the Sabbath.

      But back to the serious stuff. Throughout the writings of the apostle Paul, there is a message that tells us we are released from the law that could only condemn us, never save us! And once again I suggest you study his teachings. If you don’t, you are turning your back on the details of the new covenant. Because Paul was to the new covenant, what Moses was to the old.

  53. Denise You said:

    I neglected to comment on your proof text, of Romans 7:6, “But now we have been delivered from the law,” This is where you stopped. Continue reading….”having died to what we were held by, (sin) so that we should serve in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” If you continue to read on in Romans, the scriptures go on to explain in detail, about sin and the law.

    My reply, with a lot of help from Paul 🙂

    NIV – Romans 7:1-9
    Released From the Law, Bound to Christ

    1Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is “”released from the law”” that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is “”released from that law”” and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

    4So, my brothers and sisters, “”you also died to the law through the body of Christ””, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5For when we were in the realm of the flesh, “”the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us””, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by “”dying to what once bound us””,

    (WHAT BINDS US? GO BACK AND READ WHAT BINDS THE WOMAN TO HER HUSBAND)

    “”we have been released from the law”” so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

    The Law and Sin

    7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet. 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. “”For apart from the law, sin was dead””. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

  54. Ivar! Shalom and love IN JESUS!! I just fell upon your website and I am thrilled that you are a brother in Christ! I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, but I have to tell you that I differ with you on the subject of the rapture. Lets look at 1Thes 4:17 “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” In the rapture, Jesus doesn’t touch earth…we meet Him in the clouds! This is certainly a different event as the 2nd coming of the Lord, when He touches earth and reigns.

    Now lets look at John 14:1-3 “Do not let you hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house there are many rooms; if it were not so, i would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

    One more, Rev 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My REWARD is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”

    Now, Jesus raptures the believers to take back to be with Him, as He states in John 14. When Jesus returns, His 2nd coming, in Rev 22, His reward is with Him. Who is His reward? Ivar, that is you and me! We had to have been raptured in order to return with Him!

    So, Jesus returns in the clouds, never touches ground. Rapture. He takes us back to Heaven with Him as He promised He would in John 14. Then, at the end of the tribulation, Jesus returns, the 2nd coming, with His reward, and touches down on the mount of olives. this is good news! This is the “mystery” that Paul explained to the Corinthians in 1Cor 15:51

    Now, for those Christians beheaded and died during the tribulation are the ones that actually surrender to God! Those that get converted during the tribulation. Those that got left behind after the rapture. Those that heard the Truth but chose not to believe the Truth. I believe that there will be some that knew the truth, but will quickly realize that they got left behind and will get converted during the tribulation. There are many “so called Christians” out there in name only. Their life does not reflect Christ at all. Those are the ones that will get saved, I hope.

    Lastly, Gods wrath is certainly in the tribulation! The tribulation IS God’s wrath! Look at Rev 16:1 “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, ‘Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” Friend, God did not intend for His beautifully dressed bride to be dragged through this muck! This is hell on earth and we are NOT appointed unto wrath. He will save His bride from this horror of His wrath He will unleash on earth. Tribulation and wrath are not 2 separate events. His wrath is also for hell. To finalize, His wrath is in the tribulation and in hell.

    By the meekness and gentleness of Christ, I appeal to you – Ivar, you have a wonderful ministry, but do be careful handling God’s Word. It is alive and powerful. This is not my opinion, it all came from the Word.

    As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit throughout the bond of peace.

    Ivar, I will see you IN the clouds, brother!

  55. I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins. I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. Only because God had mercy our souls, through faith do we believe, not of ourselves. If I was not born-again, why did I not return to my old sinful ways? I know that I am however a sinner still. Why do I want to know more and more about the Lord? Why do I read the bible and it is not foolishness to me. I am lead by Him everyday, to hate sin and obey Him and pray for His church, to do what He has me do. I have surrendered to Him my life and I do not love this world. I cannot return to my old ways because He indwells me. So we are going to hell, because we are premillennialists and believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. No one can ever suffer as our Lord Jesus did. He gave Jews, and all peoples, His election from before the beginning He knew us. I also love the Jewish people and know that there is no replacement theology. The Lord keeps me humble because I know without Him I would suffer forever in the lake of fire. I do not think I am better than anyone else. I was lost until He had mercy on my soul. I was lost like so many still are, but will come to Jesus, because God draws them. We should not condemn anyone for their differences about the rapture. I know I am going to heaven. I confess with mouth and my All my Heart that Jesus died for sinners. So tell me I am condemned to Hell. Should I tell my brother also a christian brother who is dying of pancreatic cancer now he is going to hell.

    1. Shabbat Shalom Peaceinheaven,
      I know that this post was to Ivar, but I would to say something. No one is going to hell for believing in a pre-trib rapture. In fact, part of me would like to think that you are right. Many people like yourself hold to this view. However, if you are wrong, many people will be unprepared when extreme persecution comes upon the Western Church.

      If you look around it is obvious that great persecution has already begun for many believers around the globe. And in a way I envy them. Those who are suffering for the name of Jesus must experience the presence of GOD in a much more powerful way.

      Personally, I think that Satan has purposefully left the Western alone. We are the rich, pampered, and groggy church, and he has let us sleep. Can you imagine the spiritual force that we could be if we were fully engaged in the fight, and drenched in the Holy Spirit?

      Imagine if all the church leadership, like the Mega Church Pastors, and TV evangelist, were to kick off their Bruno Maglis and their Jimmy Choo’s and become the Shepherds that they are supposed to be. Organizing and instructing the sheep, tell them to act up, and speak out. What about Israel? Where are all of the voices? Sure there are some, but no where near the amount that there should be considering how many there are? “For Zion’s sake, cry out in the streets and do not let your voice be silent!”

      The belief that they will never suffer for their faith, whether they are right or wrong, has rendered them almost useless. The urgency has been removed and a goodly portion of the Church has been neutered.

      1. Hi Denise.

        Your conclusions ignore historical examples, of which there are plenty. The early Church suffered terrible persecution, whilst expecting Jesus to return at any moment. Read what Paul was saying during the early years of his ministry. Did their expectation cause them to be unprepared? Did there expectation cause them to be cowards, as Gordon Stamper likes to accuse pre-tribs of being?

        No. The fact is, the post-tribulation view hasn’t been proved in this thread. Neither can it be proved, because it doesn’t have scriptural support. The pre-tribulation Rapture view, on the other-hand, does have strong scriptural support, and has been proved to be correct.

  56. I believe Jesus Christ died for my sins. I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. Only because God had mercy our souls, through faith do we believe, not of ourselves. If I was not born-again, why did I not return to my old sinful ways? I know that I am however a sinner still. Why do I want to know more and more about the Lord? Why do I read the bible and it is not foolishness to me. I am lead by Him everyday, to hate sin and obey Him and pray for His church, to do what He has me do. I have surrendered to Him my life and I do not love this world. I cannot return to my old ways because He indwells me. So we are going to hell, because we are premillennialists and believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. No one can ever suffer as our Lord Jesus did. He gave Jews, and all peoples, His election from before the beginning He knew us. I also love the Jewish people and know that there is no replacement theology. The Lord keeps me humble because I know without Him I would suffer forever in the lake of fire. I do not think I am better than anyone else. I was lost until He had mercy on my soul. I was lost like so many still are, but will come to Jesus, because God draws them. We should not condemn anyone for their differences about the rapture. I know I am going to heaven. I confess with mouth and my All my Heart that Jesus died for sinners. So tell me I am condemned to Hell. Should I tell my brother also a christian brother who is dying of pancreatic cancer now he is going to hell.

    1. Not sure where you got the idea that a Christian said you were going to hell because of your concept of the rapture or premillennial ideas? Who so ever calls on Jesus Christ will be saved. That said, there are baby Christians still on milk that can’t eat meat. Plus, everybody needs to grow in wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. Personally, I doubt there is any single Christian that can say they know it all or there is no need for advancement.

      My fear is that those who have been taught about a pre-tribulation rapture might fall away if they suddenly find themselves in the Great Tribulation and forsake their faith because they were taught wrong. My way of thinking is those that want to be raptured are not prepared to really acknowledge Jesus Christ if they come under pressure because they are weak and fear tribulation.

      I think I could write a book and pre-trib folks still won’t listen because they feel they must be right and so they will never change their minds. They are stuck on “milk” and refuse to grow and consider further Scriptures on the matter. AMEN.

      1. If you really belong to the Lord. No one can snatch you from His hands.If I go through the Tribulation so be it. He gives us what we need to sustain us through it all. If you fall away you were never His to begin with. Ivar says if you believe in pre-trib you are condemned.

      2. Dear peaceinheaven

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        Ivar says if you believe in pre-trib you are condemned.

        My reply:

        Not at all. I just feel this is a false Prophecy. When the rapture eventually takes place, there is nothing we can do about it. I does not matter if I am wrong about the timing. My concern is that many Christians are not ready for persecution, and even martyrdom. Because they feel they will escape the gross trouble ahead.

      3. Dear Gordon.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        The rapture is surely not only for those who believe in the rapture, and in particular those who are able to sequence it correctly. There are many young and caring Christians, who have never heard about this strange word. They will off course be saved by Jesus.

        Again: My concern with the pre-trib doctine are:
        1. No need to identify the antichrist, and being concerned about the mark of the beast.
        2. Why should the true witness be taken away, and Israel be left behind?
        3. There are martyrs dying in their thousands today. Those who do not witness, will face no trouble anyhow.

  57. Hi Ivar, you said:

    Again: My concern with the pre-trib doctine are:

    1. No need to identify the antichrist, and being concerned about the mark of the beast.

    My reply: Absolutely not true. Most books written on the subject are written by pre-Tribulationists. Read mine for example 🙂

    2. Why should the true witness be taken away, and Israel be left behind?

    My reply: Because being an Israeli doesn’t mean they accept Jesus Christ as their saviour!

    3. There are martyrs dying in their thousands today. Those who do not witness, will face no trouble anyhow.

    My reply: You don’t know how many of those martyrs are pre-Tribulationists. The apostle Paul was, and he died as a martyr!

  58. Everybody,

    I will try once more to show there is not such thing as a ‘rapture’ which is a total misnomer. Yes, when Jesus Christ returns those that are alive will be caught up to be with the Lord for evermore. However, this is not the so-called “Day of Rapture” that so many misinformed and uneducated baby Christians believe about. If you read the Scriptures with the skill of a fifth grader you will see the subject matter is totally about the “Resurrection of the Dead”. Note that dead bodies come out of their graves FIRST on the last day at the last trumpet call. We know its the last day because Jesus Christ told us four time He would raise those that God has given Him and that believe in Him that He would raise them on the “last day.” See John Chapter 6.

    Further, there is no such thing as a 1.000 year reign of Jesus Christ on this old stinking earth that will melt and disappear at His coming. See II Peter.

    If you study the first resurrection closely you will see it is not Christ that reigns for a 1,000 years but the saints that went through the tribulation, that didn’t take the mark of the beast, nor worship the Antichrist that reign with Christ 1,000 years (not to be taken as a literal 1,000 hears just like we don’t take Jesus Christ has having 7 eyes). Jesus Christ reigns at the right hand of the Father for eternity, not just a 1,000 years. John saw these saints “in heaven” and they were “souls” only, so it had to be before the resurrection of the dead which all saints on heaven and earth are so patiently waiting to happen!

    Therefore be ready for tribulation and know that God will bring you through with flying colors but unless you die first there will be no escape for Christians that will surely undergo their heads being chopped off by the Antichrist for not bowing their heads to the false Christ.

    AMEN

    1. Hi gordon,
      I think that the word rapture has become a part of our christian lexicon. I agree with everything that you have said, as I too am convinced that we will go through the tribulation. The tribulation has already begun, just look at what is happening to christians and jews through out the rest of the globe. The catching away, or the word rapture, doesn’t really matter all that much. In Isaiah 60:8, this verse I think alludes to the catching away. What do you think?

  59. Hi deniseandros,

    Isaiah 60:8 could apply to the gathering of the saints. Jesus said, “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matt. 24:31. Another similar way this is described is in the explanation Jesus gave about the harvest of the wheat and tares, which reads, “the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels, Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear (THIS APPLIES TO YOU PHIL MAYO) let him hear! Matt. 13:39-43.

    Hi Phil Mayo,

    You are a joke because “my ideas” are not what I am quoting, but rather the very WORD OF GOD, which you claim has been debunked by solid properly interpreted scripture debate. God must be laughing at such a stupid statement. The facts have been revealed by God and they are as follows, in a very short summary format:

    1. The harvest is at the end of the age.
    2. The dead will be raised together both bad and good.
    3. Those that are alive when Christ comes will not precede those that have died but will be changed AFTER the dead are raised.
    4. The wheat (the saints) will remain with God forever and ever.
    5. The tares (the lost whose names are not in the book of life) will go to the everlasting lake of fire (HELL).
    6. The earth and the heavens melt at Christ’s return and there is no such thing as a carnal earthly millennium kingdom.
    7, There will be a new earth and new heaven but no sun, as Jesus Christ will be the Light of the World.

    AMEN

  60. Gordon Stamper.

    You have already demonstrated your blindness when it comes to understanding scripture, with that racist rant you made earlier in this thread. Why should anyone take you seriously? Or more to the point. Why should anyone accept your input, when we are told to shun such hypocrites?

    1. Phil.

      Shalom.

      Please stop this. No need to write this kind of messages again, and again. You have made your point clear.

  61. Phil,

    Your attacks do not bother me, but why don’t you take the Word of God at face value and let the words mean what they say? Certainly the Holy Spirit uses words we understand and Jesus clearly said He would raise the dead at the end of the age on the last day. Show me in any verse where you think there is a ‘rapture’ and I will show you dead bodies coming out of the ground, first, which then must be considered the resurrection of the dead, as the primary subject matter. Read the whole Chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians, not just one verse, and let us know the subject matter? In fact, does anyone really think something other than the resurrection of the dead is the subject matter? Please chime in. AMEN

  62. Ivar.

    The only reason I have repeated my point is because Stamper continues to make insulting remarks toward anyone who disagrees with him. Demonstrating the fruit of a man whose biblical views are not to be trusted.
    I quote him:
    “However, this is not the so-called “Day of Rapture” that so many “”misinformed and uneducated baby Christians”” believe about.” (end quote)

    Ivar, you set the tone of debate when you accused me, and any other Christians who hold my view of being “false prophets”. You shouldn’t start getting self-righteously indignant if I follow your belligerent example.

    We all know that you agree with him regarding his views on the Rapture. But you have twice intervened in support of him when I’ve criticized his racist views, and the way he perversely interprets scripture to support those views. Is my criticism a bad witness, and your “false prophet” accusation, a good one? Or are we to assume by your interventions that you also support his interpretation of scripture, as referring to black people as animals?

    Now, the last time I confronted you about this you didn’t reply. How about letting us all know where you stand on the issue this time, instead of just telling me to be silent, and allowing evil to win the day?

  63. Phil Mayo,

    You continue to misrepresent my testimony regarding our Savior and Lord Jesus the Christ, may he rebuke you. There is only one “race” the human race. You’re still all hyped up because I called you out on your unsupported idea that the Antichrist is half angel and half man. It’s remarkable you skip over the Scriptures yet claim to be a Christian. However, this is in huge doubt because you have still not written and told us the Jesus Christ is LORD of your life. You talk a good story but don’t walk in the love of Christ. Evil is not winning the day but you keep digging yourself deeper in darkness. AMEN

  64. God chose Noah for his faith not for his ethnicity.The same goes for Abraham, the descendent of Noah. Sons of Abraham (by faith not by blood- blood shall go to dust, faith is eternal) are those who have faith in The Lord and keep His commandments in the pure form that Jesus Christ preached them to his Apostles, who passed the knowledge unaltered to their disciples/called bishops-that is the Orthodox Church (named The New Jerusalem in the spiritual realm, containing people from any nation). (search for apostolic succession ) http://orthod…..cecored. Editor. uccession The Holy Spirit dwelled in The Apostles, who, by placing their hands appointed the bishops, thus becoming themselves chosen vessels of The Holy Spirit. Many of them became saints (Holy Fathers of The Orthodox Church) and wrote books also inspired by The Holy Spirit.In their books they (actually God through them) explained the spiritual meaning of The Scriptures.
    ” You would agree with Paul that we are children of Abraham, not by natural generation but by virtue of our faith (see also Gal. 3:25-29). Surely you also agree that the children of Israel are the children of Abraham, or to use a mathematical formula, Israel = the children of Abraham, through Jacob who was named Israel. Now these children of Israel are addressed by Paul in Romans 1:1-7 as the Church, which consists of both Jewish believers (natural descendants of Abraham) and Gentile believers. Thus, we may say Israel = the Children of Abraham by faith = the Church. This is why Paul refers to the Church in Galatians 6:16 as the “Israel of God.” In other words, the official statement of the significance of modern day Israel is found in Scripture which gives the name of Israel now to believers in Jesus, Christians, rather than any geographical-political entity.” http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=480
    “The Old Testament Sacrifices ceased and were replaced by the Eucharist. The former were pre-announcements and prefigurations according to the observations of StAugustine.Before the coming of Christ, the Flesh and Blood of His Sacrifice was announced and prefigured. At the sufferings of Christ, this Truth was proclaimed. After Christ’ s Ascension the Mystery of remembrance is performed.When those Sacrifices ceased “…the power of worship was in shadows and types…” and through the replacement of these by the Sacrifice of the Eucharist, “…the nature of the thing was moved to the greater.” It remains “…unconceivable, the liturgy of God. For the elders of
    the Holy Churches approach God and offer to Him the Sacrifice without the shedding of blood.” For this reason, “…at the time of Passover the Lord officiated this Divine Mystery, so that you would learn all that in the Old Testament these were pre-figured.” Whereas the Lord in the New Testament “…placed the truth.” As the Passover was celebrated by the Jews “…in remembrance of the miracles in Egypt…” likewise, the Divine Eucharist, which replaces the Judaic Passover according to the assurance of St Paul, “…for indeed Christ, our Passover, was Sacrificed for us.”We officiate in
    remembrance of the Lord. The blood of the sacrificed lamb in Egypt“…
    was shed for the salvation of the firstborns…” whereas the Blood of the Lamb of God was shed “…for the forgiveness of sins of the entire world.For this is My Blood, He said, which is shed for the forgiveness of sins.” http://www.or..Cencored.editor..tan-of-antinoteries/04%20THE%20MYSTERY….T.pdf

  65. Ivar,

    You made many astute points with which I agree.

    However I discern that there is a significant difference between a false prophet and a Christian teacher who errors on a point of doctrine. We in the flock who have studied scripture diligently have largely been ignored by the majority of pastors who have been too proud and wealthy to recognize that the teaching they learned in their teens and taught others, now for over a generation, was ultimately found to be errant.

    Great tribulation is happening today against the church in Syria, Iraq, and North Africa. In fact these modern day saints (aka Christians) are experiencing the same difficulties that Jesus predicted in Revelation. Consider that actual world events are unfolding contrary to what pre-tribulation pastors have espoused, sold, and harassed the flock with since 1830. It is now time to gently wake up a multitude of Christians and help them understand that there is a better and more consistent interpretation that aligns with all scripture.

    Truth: The one true church endures a time of great tribulation and martyrdom (fifth seal). Afterwards this same church, consisting of all Christians everywhere, will be collectively taken up to heaven at the same instant (sixth seal). The rapture frees up the entire earth to face the wrath of God and the Lamb (seven trumpets). The Jewish people will remain on the earth in the land of Israel, the same inheritance the Lord gave to them, until Jesus returns to Jerusalem (seventh seal).

    Truth: Daniel’s final one-seven is divided equally where the first half represents the 3 1/2 year earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the second half represents the 3 1/2 year period of Great Tribulation at the end of this age. The “middle of the seven” separates the two halves and conceals the Church age beginning from Pentecost until the present day (Dan 9:26-27).
    http://www.4164bc.info/year_of_creation.html

    The truth from above can be taught with clarity and simplicity and it will always glorify Jesus Christ.

  66. Hi youngearth,

    Thanks for your post and you have raised a number of good points. The only problem with what you have presented is that ALL of the judgments come from God (see Revelation chapter 6–it makes clear that the judgments are coming from God the Father and the Lamb). And since the true Church (the Bride of Christ) “is not appointed to wrath” (see 1 Thess. 5:9) how is it that you see the Church staying here through the Tribulation (also known as the “time of Jacob’s trouble”)?

    When you look at Church history, it quickly becomes apparent that the true Church has ALWAYS had tribulation down through the Church age and some of it has come at the hands of those who professed to be Christians (the RCC)–a betrayal not unlike that of the betrayal of Jesus by Judas. We, in the Western democracies, have, for some period of time, enjoyed a respite from the persecutions of the past but that does not mean that the true Church has ever ceased to be persecuted somewhere in the world during the last 2,000 years. Jesus, indeed observed that if they persecuted Him that the unbelievers would persecute us as well. But we are not appointed to the time of God’s wrath. God has NEVER poured His wrath out on obedient believers. He poured out His wrath on Jesus for our sake. We are, by our fallen nature, lawbreakers but He has given us a new heart and a new nature by the power of His Spirit. He can spare us from the wrath to come, and I believe He will, but even if He does not, we must never bend the knee to the Antichrist nor take his mark.

  67. Yup, that pre-tribulational rapture sure is wacky. The only thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionable correct.

    1. Dear Planck’s Constant

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      Yup, that pre-tribulational rapture sure is wacky. The only thing it has going for it is that it is unquestionable correct.

      My comment:

      There are many problems with the pre-trib doctrine. The most serious, is that this doctrine is not a biblical docrine. It is a set of Bible verses set together, in a bid to prove what is not written.

      This is excately what the Roman Catholic Church tries to do with its “Petrine theology”. Many protestant have been decieved, and have fallen into the same ditch.

      Out of many serious sides, the lack of ability to identify the last and final antichrist. A church who is uanble to do so, do serve the last and final antichrist.

      The secound issue, is the uplifting of the state of Israel as the very tool that shall fight the last and final antichrist. With a third temple in Jerusalem, where “god” has called the Jews to nulify the blood of Jesus, and restart offerings of blood of animals.

      Those who present this kind of stuff as truth, are not Christians. They have rejected and treated with contempt, the blood of the lamb of God.

      1. The gospel is the tool that shall defeat the antichrist. This tool is the infallible Word of God. Nothing in His creation can defeat the last man of lawlessness.

      2. Those who believe (trust, obey and relay on) the Word of God will be able to identify him, resist him and rebuke him. As they await to be resqued by the second comming of the Messiah. He will kill the last man of lawlessness.

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