“The face was apparently too decomposed to show when the body was exhumed”.
This was recorded by the press, when Italian “saint” Padre Pio was exhumed from the grave.
His face was reconstructed with a lifelike silicone mask of the type used in wax museums because it was apparently too decomposed to show when the body was exhumed.
“He seems like he is sleeping. Even if they had to re-do the face, its better remembering him this way than looking at a slab of cold marble,” said Domenico Masone, deputy mayor of Pietralcina, the town where Padre Pio was born.
Source: The Times of Malta
My comment:
To take corpses out of the grave, is not R.I.P.
So this kind of a sign on Roman Catholic grave yard’s makes no sense, regardless of what you think about the whereabouts of the departed souls.
But the flesh goes back to dust.
Padre Pio’s face was also about to return to dust, when the Catholic priests came and removed his corpse.
To have to look on a decomposed “holy face” would be scary for the Children. So the clergy found some “make up” in the city, and made the skeleton look like the “bride of Christ”.
Strangely enough the Pope came to see the corpse, to kneel down and pray in front of if.
This must be an excellent example of the dead, not only burying the dead: They bring the dead back into the Church, and starts to worship their hidden decomposed faces.
Written by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
The Roman Catholic Religious System, run by apostate heretics, never ceases to amaze me.
you dont know what you are talking about
To: Fake Rev. Michael A. Albert
You are an IDIOT!
You call yourself a Rev. but knows nothing.
Whoever must have ordained u as a Rev must be a very BIG FOOL!
Dear Master N.
Shalom
You wrote:
Whoever must have ordained u as a Rev must be a very BIG FOOL!
My warning.
This is a site with freedom of expression. But there are limits. Filthy language will not be tolerated:
Jesus Him self used the word “blind fool”. But as His students, we are called to be very careful using this kind of word, in particular towards people who are brothers and sisters of us.
Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
(end of scripture)
To use words like “fool” is useless, it your good motives was to to start a serious debate. There are other words that are more suitable. If not, Jesus warns us about the danger of Hell.
Wow!!! This site is really a Joke!!!! LOL!!! Its all here say in this site!!
You guys never research well or you only believe hear say!! Thinking that we Catholics practice praying to the dead, and believing that’s Necromancy. Saints cannot hear your prayers they’re dead! Or the most popular one, “Catholics worship Mary and dead saints.” So what about it? Do WE really have a case?
The answer is an emphatic NO!!!
The problem with Protestant Reformers and Fundamentalists like you guys on this site!!……… is the very foundation of their belief system which is Sola Scriptura. I will only briefly touch on Sola Scriptura because it is paramount for you to understand so that you may comprehend the seriously flawed presupposition and foundation that you have. Sola Scriptura is a Latin phrase first coined by the Father of the Reformation Martin Luther. It means “Only by the Scriptures” and how it is understood today is the very pillar on which all of Fundamentalist / Evangelical / Reformers base their entire theological system. Sola Scriptura is the Protestant presupposition that all spiritual truth, Christian doctrine, and Divine Revelation is only revealed to humanity exclusively through the 39 books of the Hebrew canon and the 27 books of the New Testament which makes up the totality of the Protestant Canon.
It is further understood and believed by these sects of Christendom that the Bible is self interpreting and therefore anyone picking up a Bible who sincerely seeks God through careful study of the Scriptures alone will arrive at doctrinal truth. The fact that there are thousands of Protestant denominations and sects is indicative of the fact that the very foundation of this belief system is flawed as well as unscriptural. Therefore, any time a Fundamentalist or a Reformer makes a case against what the Catholic Church teaches they should come under sharp scrutiny and intensive examination to see whether or not they have a case.
Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive (“for to him all [in heaven] are alive”) ! Let us further examine the words of Jesus on the matter:
JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18 Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19 and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
JN 11:21 “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
JN 11:24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Jesus himself spoke with both Moses and Elijah even though Moses was dead and buried for over a thousand years and Elijah was taken up into heaven (for you “Left Behind” fans: he was “raptured”) nearly a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus is our very example of Christian living and here we have Jesus talking with a so-called “dead saint” while we read in the Scriptures:
1JN 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Therefore, if Jesus spoke with departed Saints and the Bible commands us to walk as Jesus did there is no reason why we can’t speak with Saints who have overcome the world and have been perfected and glorified. So how is it that Catholics are violating some divine precept supposedly forbidden by Scripture? How is it that Catholics are disobeying the teachings of Jesus and the Scriptures when Jesus himself set the example? Some might argue and say, “Hey Dave, Jesus was God and can speak to anyone he wants.” Never in the Scriptures do we see Jesus breaking any Commandment. Jesus was not free to violate any of the commandments because if he did his sacrifice at Calvary would have been nullified by sin.
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!
Dear Liam.
Shalom, and welcome to this site.
Please do not write long booklets. This is a comment field, so make one point at the time.
Jesus said: Let the dead go a bury their own dead. Who are these walking dead’s?
Please enlighten us, in regards to Catholic worship of skull, bones and corpses.
Dear Liam.
Shalom.
You wrote:
Therefore, if Jesus spoke with departed Saints and the Bible commands us to walk as Jesus did there is no reason why we can’t speak with Saints who have overcome the world and have been perfected and glorified.
My comment:
This might be your private opinion. And the Pope might agree with your. But this not the authority that Jesus have given any man in the Bible.
There is ONLY one mediator between man and God, and that is Christ Jesus. Do you read my lips: ONE.
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
In the wedding in Cana, Miriam the mother of Jesus did not permit people to ask her for help to perform a miracle. She told them. GO to JESUS directly.
The Bible proclaims that man shall not worship, not use created things as mediums. The Catholic Church have thousands of such mediums, and makes a mockery of the Word of God.
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”
Fundamentalists will go on to conclude that because the Bible says there is only One mediator between God and man that excludes all spiritual mediation. But even a simple examination of the Scriptures will show that interpretation doesn’t make sense. The Scriptures tell us repeatedly to pray for one another and to make intercession in prayer. Intercessory prayer is mediation and that is exactly the role of the saints in heaven. If 1 Timothy 2:5 excludes all mediation then the Bible would not tell us to pray for one another, we would be required only to pray directly to God and not petition anyone for prayer. The heavenly Saints themselves being made perfect and glorified by God can go to the very throne of God on our behalf to make intercessory prayer for our specific needs and prayer request.
Consider once again to see what the Scriptures say; let us start with the Old Testament:
JOB 33:21 His flesh wastes away to nothing, and his bones, once hidden, now stick out. JOB 33:22 His soul draws near to the pit, and his life to the messengers of death. JOB 33:23 “Yet if there is an angel on his side as a mediator, one out of a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, JOB 33:24 to be gracious to him and say, Spare him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for him’– JOB 33:25 then his flesh is renewed like a child’s; it is restored as in the days of his youth . JOB 33:26 He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God’s face and shouts for joy, he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Here we have an example of an Angel acting as a mediator for a man who is about to die from sickness and sin and yet by the Angels mediation the man is restored to his health and his righteous state. By virtue of the Angels persuading intercessory prayer to God to have mercy on the man, the man was spared death. Contrast this to Jeremiah:
JER 15:1 Then the LORD said to me: “Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!
In Matthew 22 where Jesus said at the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven….
Jesus said glorified Saints will be like the Angels in Heaven and Angels are ministering spirits to those of us on earth!
HEB 1:14 “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
Jesus said that those who die in Christ are transformed and will be like the Angels in heaven and that implies glorified and perfected heavenly Saints (the “spirits of just men made perfect” Hebrews 12:22-24) will like Angels be ministering spirits to the people of God on earth struggling in this life. The difference between Angels and glorified Saints is that the Saints in Heaven lived out their earthly lives through all the trials and tribulations, having their faith tested as gold is tested and purified by fire (1 Peter 1:6-9; 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Dear Liam
Shalom.
Roman Catholic are simply not able to understand. You are yet another example.
You wrote:
If 1 Timothy 2:5 excludes all mediation then the Bible would not tell us to pray for one another, we would be required only to pray directly to God and not petition anyone for prayer.
My reply:
Dearest. Christians do not pray to departed souls. We simply can not be sure where they are. In Heaven or in Hell.
Since we do not have to pray in any other name than Jesus, why make a mockery out of His name, by praying to anyone else?
If you are praying in the name of a departed hell-bound hypocrite, a demon will at best come and entertain your prayers.
I am sometimes puzzled with what it would take, to make a Roman Catholic understand this simple ABC about Christianity.
You do not want to be saved, so what to do.
The Pope is elevated by the RCC to the seat of “god”. Because He claims that he knows for sure, where people have ended up after they are dead. He can bring back the “saints” from the dead, ex-human them, beautify them, and declare them to be alive, and performing miracles for people who pray to them.
This kind of religious rituals are a complete morbid perversion of true Christianity. This kind of religious people manifest the spirit that reign within them, in the most grotesque ways. Like bowing down and praying to skulls, bones, and dead mans flesh.
How can anyone still wounder why Catholic priests rape young boys?
Will they ever repent?
Probably not.
They hide their wickedness and sins, and starts to believe in their own lies. God has put a dilution on them. It is a huge spiritual tragedy. Up from their idol worship, raises a death cult that holds a billion souls in bondage.
One of them is you. Repent, or face eternity in Hell.
Liam, Shalom, where to start?
As you correctly point out that Jesus did confirm that God the Father is the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. What He was talking about was, first God recognised Abraham and called him out of Chaldea, God passed on the birthright blessings to Isaac and then to Jacob/Israel. As each generation passes, God becomes God of the ‘living’ generation. Each predecessor having gone to spiritual sleep.
You also point out correctly that Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah in person in the kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus told the disciples that before their generation passed away some of them would see Him in heaven. A couple of days later I believe if I am correct He took Peter Andrew and James with Him and He was transfigured and Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Those disciples saw Him as He is in Heaven. This was a fulfillment of His recent prophecy.
All saints however are asleep under Gods throne, see Revelation. Under the authority of God, He chooses to allow them to stir and appear to His servants, without His authority, they sleep.
In the Old Testament, Saul went to see a diviner/medium, she called up the spirit of Samuel. She was a fraud but…..God authorised Samuel to appear to her, if you read the text you will find that she was absolutely terrified because she had not experienced such a thing before.
You quote
1JN 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
It says ‘we know we have come to know him if we obey his commands’.
The Catholic church does not ‘remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy’. They teach Sunday is the Christian Sabbath.
Christ Himself is Lord of the Seventh day Sabbath, He said He didn’t come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it.
The Catholic encyclopedia tells us that the church does not have the authority to change it to Sunday but it did anyway.
Using the verses you quote we can easily deduce that all who wholeheartedly support Catholicism do not know God.
They say they know Him but they do not keep His commandments, the verses tells us ‘the truth is not in him’.
However, the Bible teaches that to those who are given a little, a little is expected of them, and to those who are given a lot, a lot is expected of them.
Many people attend all of the denominational churches believeing that what they are doing is right in the eyes of God because the well dressed man at the front tells them so.
It is these wolves in sheeps clothing that Jesus warns us about that we need to identify and avoid, but, individual sheep who have been deceived need our love and support as they come to know the truth.
The truth being, that there is no truth in the Catholic doctrine.
Wow, you missed a serious point when Jesus said I AM. Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, He IS the God of Abraham, because Jesus still IS, not because Abraham still is.
Hey godsfingers…read the account of the Transfiguration of Christ on Mt. Tabor before the eyes of Peter, James and John. Okay…after that, explain to me who Christ was speaking with. Okay…now, how is that possible if Moses and Elijah have died…and the dead do not live. It is through Christ, of course, The Way, The Truth and The Life, that these people live, but the dead clearly are not “dead”. Ok…now read the book of Revelation and then explain to me the cloud of witnesses….I’ll wait…
~~~>This must be an excellent example of the dead,<~~~ Perfect example of what this Pope is all about!
Its a perfect example you don’t know and who does not do any objective research!!
I am sorry.but this is a real fake, I think he is made of wax or something like that.A real real joke,all Catholic Churches are lyers,only The Orthodox Church is the real and the truth one.Not one who who think that pope is bigger and greater than God.
This is Catolic Church.lyers.please forgive me
Dear Daniel.
Shalom.
You wrote:
The Orthodox Church is the real and the truth one.
My reply:
This is how people in a sect have been told to think. You are equally lost as Roman Catholics, who also have been told they belong to the “only true Holy Church”.
IVAR,
I am slightly confused by this. I treasure the prayers said on my behalf by my fellow Christian friends.
For example, If my sister-in-faith (she has professed her faith in Jesus) alive prays for me today,
but then she dies tomorrow – why can I not continue to ask her to
pray for my intentions? I am not praying TO her ( which is what Catholics do ), I am asking her to pray for me to Jesus?
Dear Key.
Shalom.
You asked:
For example, If my sister-in-faith (she has professed her faith in Jesus) alive prays for me today,
but then she dies tomorrow – why can I not continue to ask her to pray for my intentions?
My comment:
The Bible explains that people who are alive, are the living saints. We know who they are, and they do not pray in any other name than Jesus.
When a soul is departed, we must leave them to Jesus the Messiah. Now, if you pray to them, you make them a departed medium.
Why would you run the risk, of praying to someone who are not in Heaven?
You do not fully know, who the hypocrites are. Jesus knows them all.
Why not pray only to the living God, whom you have direct access to?
I sometimes refuse to pray for people. I tell them: Why is God not listening to your payers? Is it because you refuse to obey? Why do you want me to bless your life in sin? Will you use me as an excuse, if my intersession for you “does not work”?
Ivar,
Thank you. I have much to ‘shed’ & relearn. But I do not despair.
Proverbs gives warning to those who follow ‘Folly’ (who mimics Wisdom)”But little do they know
that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of the
grave. (Proverbs 9:18 NIV84). I do see now it is best to Let the dead bury the dead.
Rv 6:9 When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
Is 56:4 For thus says the Lord: To the eunuchs who observe my sabbaths and choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant, I will give, in my house and within my walls, a monument and a name* Better than sons and daughters; an eternal, imperishable name will I give them.
Hi friends peace to u all, God bless!
please understand the real meaning of FAITH, HOPE and LOVE, through the wisdom of god than u people able to understand, whether departed soul (saints) supported us to pray.
Please do not blame the churches. Founder of catholic church, christ himself. Jesus himself give authority to the first pope (Saint Peter). So please do not argue. May the lord Jesus christ with u all.
Capital letters for several words…yet GOD was spelled ‘god’ ..??? Jesus is not the founder of any Cult..whether it be Catholicism or any other such depraved religion or tree huggers!…FACT! It’s easier to follow a lie than to follow Jesus Christ, because HIS WORD don’t change…all others ‘fit the bill at hand, or the pocket to be lined, or the political religious murdering, raping, destructive, degenerates, or the sick-o religious leaders who say it’s OK to to kill, you’ll get 72 virgins in heaven to rape..but before you die, you get “Bow to the knees to your leaders, by the current Pharaoh!” Whoopee, more demons to rejoice at sheer ignorance, and all it took to turn people from Jesus was a Lust to rape little boys, little girls, (age don’t matter,..do the math, Japan raped little babies out of their Mother’s arms..History lesson Free!)…so if you want to talk peace..about Catholics, don’t leave out the rest of the Demonic ruled World of spiritual seeking, I love Jesus Unity Dung…or the “What Would Jesus Do”…Well Sweetheart, JESUS already did what HE would do..he did it at Calvary..and all these Circus Clowns, Carnival Hawkers dressed up in jewels, finery, are out for your Money….
your …Soul..with Reservations with your name on it in HELL “IF” you don’t repent and turn to JESUS..That is wisdom…(smile). In case some don’t know..It’s against the law to dig up any grave ..that’s a GRAVE DIGGERS…YET..(smile) another “tid-bit” of History 101 for the False Religion Folks, Have you noticed it is ”OKAY around the World for the Catholics” to dig up graves, and cause the people to worship dressed up skeletons, statues of stone..and the to allow a transfer of rapists to other Churches..(it’s a double standard, to put rapists in prison, and give a FREE PASS to rape more children in another town, year after year after year. “Ya think there’s something wrong with this picture????? and even how DUMB it is to agree, defend and try to justify this practice from the pit of hell, or vote for anyone who is a part of and/or supports it ??? up to and including Rick Warren to be chosen to swear in a (another Pharaoh) Leader of a Nation…but since it’s approved world wide…it explains why this so many like what is ‘approve’ ..as Jesus said, “They don’t come to me because they love their sins more than ME!” No wonder Brother John The Baptist got his head cut off…he spoke the Truth! and didn’t water it down to suit the demonic satanic spawned brats.
My dear, you are dead wrong. 100% dead wrong.
As for evil people in the church, there always HAVE been some, and there are always GOING to be. Child rape is horrendously evil. Those who did this (especially because they have the GRACES God gives especially to the Ordained FOR THE FULFILLMENT OF THEIR MINISTRY, are ESPECIALLY guilty) are not going to get away with it, even if they do in this life. You MUST repent, and if they don’t, it would be better for them if a Giant Millstone were hung about their necks and they were thrown into the Sea, and Christ said so himself.
The Catholic FAITH, however, is another matter, and you are dead wrong about it.
I was raised, thoroughly brainwashed, in a fiercely anti-Catholic Cult. Everything you have said, I ALSO used to say, and a hell of a lot MORE than you said, as well.
I learned, after reading the early church writes, those men who were taught DIRECTLY BY the apostles and their personally-trained Evangelists, who taught all the churches in the first two centuries after Christ, all over the ancient Roman empire, reading them, I learned, to my SHOCK, that these LONG
BEFORE Constantine people believed, ALL OF THEM BELIEVED, **exactly** what the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches believe today.
OUTSIDE of this historic, early, ILLEGAL Christian church, were other groups, called Gnostics, who believed horrible things, did stupid things like drink each other’s pee (yes, I’m serious, they did those things) and worship each other, too. They hated the apostle Paul and called him “Apostate,” and most of them accepted only the Gospel of LUKE, and only PARTS of that. Yes, outside of that early apostolic Church, which taught CATHOLIC and ORTHODOX doctrine, all of them, 100% of them,– outside of that early church were nobody but those nutty gnostics. There were no ancient “fundamentalists” or “evangelicals” anywhere, which proves that protestantism, in any form, IS NOT the original Faith. Christ promised that his Church and Faith would never disappear (Matthew 16:18 et all), never would the gates of hell at any time prevail against it. So, if your set of views were not the views of the church of the 1st 2 centuries after Christ’s resurrection, then they are MISTAKEN, no matter how sincerely and prayerfully you devoutly believe these mistaken views. They are still mistakes.
I did not go to the 1st or 2nd Century Church’s History to base my belief upon the Lord Jesus Christ. History is interesting to say the least, but to put as much zeal in it as you seem to do, is very dangerous, it too can and will be a tool to choke the very Word in you and thereby bringing no effect on you or anyone else. If you read The Word you’ll see in it is the Only Life, Only Truth, all else is ”outside” …(smile) …even up to and including ‘intent of heart is a weighty matter in what you do and say.
This antiCatholic site is idiotic. A few points will suffice. The Apostles lived on for up to 70 years after Christs resurrection. For 70 years, from one end of the empire to the other, they preached sermons after sermons, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after freaking year, for several decades in all the churches. The second century a.d. church is THE church taught directly by the apostles AND by those directly taught BY the apostles to carry on their work. That is indisputable. It cannot be honestly refuted. It cannot. And ALL the second century Christians believed in
1) aposolic succession, with bishops and presbyters who held ministerial PRIESTLY offices, not elders in the protestant sense AT ALL.
2) Believed that Mary was the New Eve, the Second Eve.
3) Believed in 7 Sacraments
4) Believed that the Eucharist, communion, was the REAL, ACTUAL, risen body and blood soul and divinity of the Risen Heavenly Christ made present on our altars.
4) Believed in confession of sins to the presbyters.
5) Believed in ANOINTING OF THE SICK as a sacrament.
6) Believed that because of Peter (and Paul helping hm) found it, the Roman Church was THE Queen and ruler of the other churches and it’s bishop held the place in the Episcopate that Peter held among the apostles (this is the papacy, folks, no ifs ands or buts).
7) Bekueved that if you sinned seriously after baptism and did not repent and confess, you would LOSE YOUR SALVATION.
FOLKS, this is CATHOLIC teaching, all of it. And it was UNIVERSAL in the ENTIRE early Christian Church by 100 A.D. The only groups who disagreed were Gnostics so FREAKISH that no protestant would associate his name with them. The apostolic faith is the Catholic faith, and to call that faith “heretical,” or “false” or “apostate,” is tantamount to Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, no matter how sincerely you think that you are right. If you are doing these things, you had better repent and FAST. God will forgive your ignorance, but not your undermining of his authentic Catholic faith. Stop it. Those decades of sermons by the apostles all over the empire, explained for all time what they MEANT by what they WROTE in our VERY THIN New Testament, and NO amount of exegesis, lexicons, or any other stuff can make protestantism or evangelicalism the true Christian faith. You have parts of it, but a lot of 16th century blasphemous heriesies mixed in with what truth you do have. REPENT.
2)
Wow, and the incontrovertible evidence concerning your seven points is what? If you study the Greek, Jesus called Peter “Petros” or little stone, then referring to Himself He says “Petra” or Rock. Jesus made the distinction at that point the HE is the Rock that the church is built on, NOT Petros, or the little stone.
Also, in Hebrews 6 it is very clear that the only way to lose your salvation is to turn your back after having experienced the fullness of Gods grace, Holy Spirit and giftings. The Roman Catholic took the giftings away and sequestered them so that the parishioner can not approach that point.
Your last point, and the most obvious error is that, yes, catholic with a little “C” means universal but you can’t have a Roman universal Christian church. The word catholic only came into use around the 15th century. Before that it was the Roman church or Roman Orthodox or the empire of Rome, what ever you prefer.
And don’t even go near Maryology. Jesus said quite clearly to John, John 19″26,7 “26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. Jesus clearly assigned Mary to be earthbound.
I have never understood how people, who call themselves Christians rarely ever practice the teachings of Christ. It’s as if everyone is so bent and twisted on getting other people to believe what they believe that they lose sight of the real purpose. Christ didn’t want us to bicker and argue about who is right and who is wrong. He wanted us to love each other and accept each other. We may not have to be best friends with everyone, but he wanted us to accept each other for who we are. I highly doubt Christ would have turned his nose up at a Buddhist or a Muslim just because they thought differently. How can any one religion be wrong if we all want the same thing? If the Catholics want to stick a mask on a corpse, who cares? It’s not hurting anyone….it’s weird but it isn’t hurting anyone.
First of all, if you believe that it’s all just a matter of “thinking differently” then how can you know WHAT were the authentic teachings of Christ?
This modern proliferation of sects and cults, some very destructive ((I know this from experience, I was raised in and extremely anti-Catholic modern cult)) is very confusing. Christ did not leave behind merely some general exhortation to “be nice to each other,” though that IS CERTAINLY a valid command. No, he would never turn up his nose at a Buddhist “merely” because they were a Buddhist, or a Jew, or a Muslim, What he does not like, is INdifference to Truth, as if truth and accuracy do not matter. None of us tolerates such indifference in any other arena ((try telling a cop that “it doesn’t matter” whether you believe the speed limit is 25 mph or 60 mph, as long as we are “nice to each other,” and see how far you get with him with that statement, LOL )). Christ knows that we are going to err in many things. But to WILLFULLY err, to not care what his actual teachings were, that is very insulting to him. He told the apostles to go to every nation and TEACH THEM EVERYTHING, WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. That’s no small matter. It’s far more than a matter of “being nice to each other.” He meant every word of that command. The apostles obeyed it. What they actually taught, is what the ENTIRE church, in every country and language, believed in the first two centuries, since it was they, and their personally-trained associates, who thoroughly indoctrinated those churches. And what those churches believed, and ANY honest person can verify this thru a little research even for free on the internet, is exactly what is taught by the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches today, including all 7 sacraments, asking the Saints for their intercession in heaven for us, veneration (NOT worship) of Mary as the New Eve, our mother in the order of Grace and election, etc. These were the earliest doctrines. They have never changed or been reversed. People REBELLED against them in the 16th century and afterwards, but in doing so, they made a grave, grave error. Those born into these systems of (some degree of doctrinal) error, are not at all to be blamed for that. What IS blameworthy, is to REFUSE to check things out to verify which interpretations were, in fact, the early apostolic (and hence authentic and correct) ones. Error does not bring glory to God. He forgives it, but it does NOT bring glory to him.
As for the fake face on Saint Padre Pio,
I myself AM a Catholic, an adult convert. I venerate Padre Pio and respect him immensely. I love the Catholic Faith, too. I criticize the use of a silicone mask on his face precisely because I **DO** believe in Incorruptibility, and a silicone mask can CAUSE people, who are otherwise open to learning more about Catholicism, to be SCANDALIZED and confused and think that Catholics are out to DECEIVE the world. The mask was made for respect’s sake, but it’s still confusing. There are PLENTY of other Saints, fully incorrupt, WITHOUT a fake silicone mask replacing a decomposed face. Saint Silvan (or Sylvan) from the 3rd century, looks like a handsome young man taking a nap, for example. Saint Imelda is as beautiful as she was 800 years ago when she died. Bernadette is still beautiful. St. Catherine Laboure is laying in her casket, incorrupt, with her sky-blue eyes (still intact) wide open, though she has been gone 130 years or more. You don’t NEED to “help God along” regarding incorruptible saints, by providing a silicone mask.
Donald Ramsey
Shalom, and welcome to this site.
You wrote:
St. Catherine Laboure is laying in her casket, incorrupt, with her sky-blue eyes (still intact) wide open, though she has been gone 130 years or more.
My reply:
Why do you look for the living among the dead?
If you put enough chemicals inside a dying snake, you will preserve him. Even the eye bowls. Likewise with a dying human.
The Catholic Church is a movement of grave looters. The loot graves, and cut the head of corpses. They clean the off cut head with chemicals of different kinds, and display the skulls in their churches.
The rest of the skeletons are boiled in lye, is a bid to separate the meat from the bones. The dead meat is reburied, but the dry and washed bones are cut into pieces and sold as relics.
Fraud, fraud and utter religious insanity. Shame on all people who support this kind of grave looting, theft and money making in the name of “god”.
Wehn people don’t want the truth, don’t want to come to the Truth of Jesus Christ that their sins will be forgiven, they will be a god unto themselves and try to take as many people as they can to the hell that is prepared for Satan and the demons. and fallen angels! This kind of belief is a ‘Fair Hair Child’ favorite of Rick Warren…in short..he’d love to have you on his team, you’d believe all his lies, you have quoted most of them already.
There is no fraud. You gravely misunderstand our veneration of relics. We are not “grave looters.” The veneration of the bodies (not worship!!) of God’s holy people stems from an incident in the Tanakh, or Jewish “Old Testament”, wherein a dead man, in the heat of battle, was hastily thrown, accidentally, into the tomb of the Prophet Elisha. The body touched the bones of Elisha the Prophet, and IMMEDIATELY sprung to Life. Now, we all know that a mere BONE has now power in and of itself. None. Zero. Zilch. NADA. BUT, God has frequently glorified his holy people, the Saints and Prophets of Israel, by miracles associated with the use of their relics. If you don’t understand these things, that is your lack of understanding. You mock and blaspheme what you do not understand. That is sacrilegious. It is not I who will punish you for sacrilegious remarks. God will do so. If the remarks are sincere and made in ignorance, then no matter how sacrilegious they are, God will forgive the remarks IF you repent of them at some point. The bodies of the Incorruptibles are NOT EMBALMED AT ALL, which is precisely the point. Pope John the 23rd, however, is another matter. He was embalmed, and though some admirers might like to think so, his still preserved body CANNOT be used as a true example of incorruption, for this very reason.
Although, it must be said, that ORDINARILY, even EMBALMED corpses of men and women who died in 1963, as he did, would have rotted away to nothing by now. But still, that is not proof in his case, for he WAS embalmed. The Church is not a movement of grave robbers, for pete’s sake. Every Catholic knows from the beginning, that the bodies are often exhumed, years later, usually not for the purpose of possible canonization, but at the family’s request, for the purpose of a ceremonial “wake” or other remembrance. It is often during THESE exhumations, NOT ordered by the Church! — that incorruption is discovered, to the surprise of the family or religious order, who then report the phenomenon to church authorities. RELICS and the use of them ALSO stem, in the church, from the FACT that, as recorded in ACTS, cloths, napkins, and other items that the Apostles had touched or worn, were touched to the bodies of the sick, and they were INSTANTLY healed. There is no power, inherently, in cloths, clothing, or other such items, either, but God is pleased, even to this day, to USE these relics as vehicles of his Grace and to vindicate the holiness and accuracy of the Catholic Faith which these Saints clearly and emphatically taught. The use of relics is not some pagan superstitious grave-robbing practice,and it is libellous of ANYONE to say such things. The use of relics does not come from “papal tradition,” either. As I have demonstrated irrefutably, the use of relics comes DIRECTLY from the Old Testament (the Tanakh) and from the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES.
The Catholic faith is beautiful, it’s philosophy deeply rooted in Christ, and it’s theologians are so very deep and brilliant, that seriously, they make their critics actually look like less than Dilletantes by comparison.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
The body touched the bones of Elisha the Prophet, and IMMEDIATELY sprung to Life.
My comment:
This is correct. But where in the scriptures, is it stated that the Jews removed the body of Elijah out of the tomb?
Where is it stated that the Jews cut off his head, and boiled the skeleton in lye?
Where is it written that the Jews took the skeleton with them home, and displayed them in their synagogues?
Do you know a single synagogue who have kept such bones?
Please answer my questions, and do not reply by a long Roman Catholic booklet.
Sir (I think), the questions are irrelevant.
The Jews were, and are, afraid of desecrating bodies. That is all well and good.
Catholics do not remove bodies with the intent to desecrate them. Nor do we practice boiling skulls in lye. It doesn’t matter that the Jews didn’t remove Elisha’s bones. ALSO, this miracle was known to the INSPIRED writer of that Scriptural account, it was NOT necessarily known at the time to the broader Israelite community. It happened during a pitched battle, after all. It doesn’t matter that Jews don’t venerate their dead exactly the same way that Catholics venerate Saints. They still do venerate their bodies. In Hebron, Israel, today, is the TOMB of Abraham. His BODY is inside. For that reason, thousands of Jews, weekly, visit the Tomb of Abraham to PRAY THERE. They are not worshipping him by doing so, either, nor are they being superstitious. Also, do not try to tell me “how” to reply. I do not write “roman catholic booklets,” and your use of that sarcastic remark reveals your underlying hatred, bigotry and sarcastic personality. I did not talk that way to you about yourself. I do not care if you “LIKE” my Catholic Faith, not one whit. I am not here to win YOURS, or ANYONE ELSE’s, respect. I don’t care WHAT you think of me. But I WILL defend the Catholic Faith, whether you like it or not. With no shame, for there is no shame in defending what is, in fact, the Truth. I was raised to HATE IT with a PASSION, far worse than even you do. Whatever you say against it, I also used to say and, I guarantee you, a heck of a lot MORE, too, and for a very long time, three decades to be exact. I am not new to this. There is no objection to my FAITH that you can throw at me that I have not heard before, that I have not, often, myself, MADE before. You cannot teach a FORMER antiCatholic like me, anything I don’t already know about sinners in the church, bad popes, bad bishops, fake relics in the middle ages, you name it. I give a thorough reply. I don’t care if the Jews didn’t venerate the relics. Back in their times, they DID keep a relic of the staff with the snake on it, that God used to heal them from the poisonous snake attacks. HE had Moses mount it on a pole, and told the Israelites to look at it, and they would be healed. And they were. ((Which AGAIN vindicates Catholic use of material objects as vehicles of Divine mercy and gifts)). BUT, after a while (centuries) the Israelites, rather than a respectful veneration, actually began to out and out WORSHIP this object, this HOLY, God-ordained Object, as an IDOL. At that point, God had his holy people take it and destroy it. They were now using it for a wrong reason: worshiping IT, instead of the God, YHWH, who had given it His power to work Miracles.
I suspect that may have been part of the reason Elisha’s bones were not venerated publicly: because, as scripture repeatedly records, the Israelites were surrounded by pagans and had a PENCHANT for CONTINUOUSLY falling into Idolatry and not repenting (which is why the LORD allowed Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Jerusalem and it’s holy Temple in 587/586 B.C.).
The questions you posed are irrelevant to whether it is legit for Christians to venerate relics. They did so in the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES, and these relics HEALED THEM by the power of God. THAT is the issue.
To COURT,
Friend, do you see the comments and claims from ANDREA, posted at least two times above??
And the comments from IVARFJELD?
These two people are OBVIOUSLY sincere,
but they are making claims, of SUBSTANCE, against the Catholic FAITH. That we “don’t want forgiveness”, that we are practicing religious “fraud,” or superstition, or grave-robbing. Good Lord, look at those accusations!!
THAT, dear Court, is WHY truth and correctness matters. If those two WOULD DO the historical research, they would SEE where the truth and accuracy lie, and would stop these ridiculous claims, which are LIBELS against Christ’s Faith Community, the historic, bona-fide, doctrinally-accurate Faith Community. THAT is why TRUTH matters. It is not a mere matter of patting each other on the back, and together operating a soup kitchen for the needy (as good as that is).
They are making horrible accusations, believing the false accusations to be true.
Why does this matter?
For one thing because God commands that we MUST NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST OUR NEIGHBORS. That is not a small sin, that’s a BIG one, because it is a direct violation of the 10 Commandments to LIBEL another person, group, church, or whatever, but especially is it a grave offense to Libel the Church of Christ with false accusations. It is the sin of blasphemy as well, because the church, the Body of Christ, is being libelled in such false accusations.
THAT is why learning the truth, really DOES matter.
Being nice to each other will only take us so far.
Eventually, our erroneous beliefs about each other, and the accusations such erroneous beliefs CAUSE, are GOING TO BE spouted. Knowing the truth helps to greatly prevent and correct that. Thanks, Court.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You did utter some words of disappointments, but did not answer my questions:
You claim to speak to the COURT, but you seems by have no case. The JUDGE will give you a fair verdict based on the SCRIPTURES.
to Donald Ramsey..I speak what I know. I know what I am taught by The Holy Spirit of Truth. Also when I walk into a church and see coffins with a glass over the skeleton that is worshipped, venerated as something which it is not, A Major Red Flag goes up..When I hear
someone like you and or anyone who defends a corrupt ‘religion’ that has not only corrupted millions for centuries, Another Major Red Flag goes up…When I see and hear so many accuse the ‘ones representing this corrrupt religion of child, and yes Nun abuse, casting off the pregnancies etc, A nother Red Flag goes up..When I see people like you accuse ‘The Truth’ spoken by those who have ears to hear and eyes to see thru The Holy Spirit, again a Major Red Flag goes up. It does not surprise me that anyone who does not discipline their spirit, soul and body in submission to The Lord Jesus Christ is going to accuse His people of lying and blasphemy..HE said they would…So I say to you Thank you ! In this you only hurt yourself, in believing a lie yet that very determination to accuse us and not seek the Lord Jesus Christ’s veneration instead of a world approved hell bent religon that can be manipulated by any demon with the corruption that fills up the hearts and minds of the itching ears that are so well heard around the globe today..Make no mistake, this lie is not just in one relgion it’s also in the denominations that run ramphantly aldo for approval while the back doors of these are filled with the sins of the leaders who walk in the front door using The Name of Christ to justify their deeds as well as the Catholic Church they just don’t dig up physical graves, these offer the opportunity to ‘fill those graves’…! Shame on all of you who follow these lies! Your greed does not exceed the Catholic Church, rather yall are sellers of mercandise and the merchandise are people!
ANDREA, now you are libelling me PERSONALLY. If I find out your name and address, I may well file suit against you for this. And believe me, I will win. Why? Because the historical facts are all, ALL, on the side of what I’ve said here. You yourself can find out what the true apostolic faith is. It is right at your fingertips, for free. If you do not want to bother to find out if what you believe is REALLY from the Holy Spirit, that is your problem. I DID check things out, and I and my 30 years of ferocious anti-Catholicism, was and were dead wrong. As are you.
So you “believe” that the Holy Spirit inspires your antiCatholic beliefs. How do you KNOW? Feelings? Good feelings?? Feelings of Conviction??? I assure you that Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons have the same absolute, powerful, inner convictions from what they THINK, sincerely, is the Holy Spirit bearing witness to them. Yet you, surely, do not agree with THIER doctrines. But they read the scriptures, too, even if you think they DON’T: they DO. Daily. And they ask God, in Jesus’s name, to confirm His truth to them when reading scripture, too. And STILL their views, we both know, are mistaken. Yet something, powerful, IS bearing witness to them that their views are CORRECT. I know it is, because it bore witness to ME, when I was a Cultist (JW) years ago. And, it makes you feel good inside and all over. And it HELPS you avoid adultery and fornication and many other sins. But still, the interpretations, we both know this, of the JWs and Mormons, on MAJOR issues, are WRONG. DEAD WRONG. Despite that powerful spiritual witness that they DO receive and which DOES make them feel good, kind and pure.
You and I both know that Jesus Christ IS the LORD GOD. JWs and Mormons, despite DAILY scripture reading and constant prayer, do NOT believe this and CANNOT even see it. Despite their sincerity, they are WRONG about this.
Despite YOUR sincerity, you are WRONG about the Catholic Faith.
And don’t you DARE accuse me ever again of trafficking in merchandise or human souls.
I am poor and do not traffic in ANYTHING.
When you call the original apostolic faith, LIES, as you so boldly do, even though the awareness of your error is available to you, at your fingertips, at the click of a mouse, then you, Andrea, are coming very close to
Blaspheming that Holy Spirit whom you say you love and worship.
This is no joke, Andrea.
Be careful.
>>>ANDREA, now you are libelling me PERSONALLY. If I find out your name and address, I may well file suit against you for this. And believe me, I will win<<< In this World of Corruption you would most definitely win (smile)…Corruption begets corruption.,.The World loves their own….(smile)…You would not be the first to take a Christian before a judge, to court, nor would I be the first Christian 'taken and threatened to be taken" to court for what I said. So bottom line Sweetums, for both of us…The Word of God has the last say…and if you don't agree with HIM you are libel before HIM..no matter how many dead bones you bow down to or defend their rich clothed leaders! But you are and will continue to be ensnared by the doctrines of the cult that has you bound..sad but true! If you repent and call upon Jesus Christ and turn from your wicked way you too can come to and learn the Real Truth and have Eternal Life. Many Church's all over the world will and have been corrupt in one form or another, they can't save you…Only Jesus Christ can…remember dear a little leven will leven the whole lump! Silver & Gold I have none, but what I do have you too can have…Repentence is Sweet!
I don’t speak to THE Court. There is a poster, above, whose screen name here is COURT.
I **did** answer your questions. You don’t accept the answers, which are accurate and irrefutable.
The SCRIPTURES ALSO vindicate my answers, 100%.
Also, God will not judge me on “the scriptures,” but on the scriptures CORRECTLY INTERPRETED and by those with the AUTHORITY to interpret them. That would be, first of all, the apostles, who DID, in fact, interpret them, correctly, to ALL the ancient churches, all over the ancient 1st century Roman Empire, along with their trained associates (such as Timothy and hundreds of others), who taught these things to the NEXT generation. This is the apostolic church. The CORRECT interpretations WERE TAUGHT to them. The New Testament is only about a quarter inch thick or slightly more. The apostles interpeted this “new testament” and it’s true meaning, for 50 to 70 years in sermon after sermon after sermon, every day, for 5 to 7 decades, thoroughly indoctinating, CORRECTLY, ALL of the ancient churches. What THEY believed, in ALL the Churches, IS the correct faith, therefore, and the CORRECT interpretation of th New Testament. NOTE: what things they UNIVERSALLY believed, in ALL those churches, is the correct faith. Where there were disagreements, those things had to be settled later, in councils. But what WAS UNIVERSAL, was:
(1) baptismal regeneration by WATER **and** the Spirit.
(2) Seven sacraments, not two, not three, not five.
(3) That the Presbyters had a PRIESTLY ministry and were NOT elders in the protestant sense of that term.
(4) That Mary is the New Eve, all-holy, and our
God given mother in the order of Grace and Election.
(5) that the Bishop of Rome fulfilled the office among the bishops, that Peter filled among the apostles, i.e., what we now call by the term, “papacy.”
(6) That the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, though
three in “person”, are one in BEING ((which is
now called by the word, “Trinity.”))
(7) That if, after your adult conversion and baptism, you take up the unrepented practice of deliberate and gravely serious sins, you WILL lose your salvation ((NO once saved, always saved teaching, ever existed ANYWHERE in the early church, ever, never, at any time, until Luther and Calvin came up with the idea in the 16th century, which means, 100% certain, that the apostles NEVER TAUGHT such an interpretation of their writings to the ancient churches)).
(7) In holy communion, you receive, actually and literally, the risen, glorified, literal body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, not a symbolic remembrance of him, but HIM HIMSELF.
With the exception of Lutherans, who do accept point (1), point (6) and point (7), these teachings are today DENIED by ALL protestant groups of every persuasion. High-Church Anglicans also accept these points, all of them, but they are all coming back to the apostolic churches nowadays, since the Church of England is now ordaining women, openly avowed practicing homosexuals, condoning abortion, and all kinds of other crazy things.
And of course, these 7 points are also denied by Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and nearly all fundamentalist protestant groups (except, for the fundamentalists, for point(6), the Trinity).
The Truth is easy to verify. It is not my opinion.
Anti-Catholicism is NOT based on fact, it is based on personal whim and personal interpretation of scripture. Do not try to tell me that the Holy Spirit gives individuals the ability and right to personally, privately interpret the scriptures correctly, because if THAT were true, there would BE NO DENOMINATIONS. The Lutherans, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Baptists, fundamentalists, and others would therefore, if being taught by the Holy Spirit, all agree on all the major doctrines, which they don’t. They do agree on the Trinity, the Soul, and Hell being eternal (as do we) but on almost nothing else. These contradictory private interpretations therefore CANNOT be from the Holy Spirit, who does NOT cause such confusion among believers. This is NOT His doing.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
I can read a lot of religious stuff in your reply. Are you a Roman Catholic priest by the way?
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
(7) In holy communion, you receive, actually and literally, the risen, glorified, literal body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, not a symbolic remembrance of him, but HIM HIMSELF.
My comment:
I am glad you wrote this. Because it underlines that we do not worship the same Jesus.
While “Jesus of Rome” is consumed physically, Jesus of the Bible points towards the copy of the passover blood, a cup with wine. The Messiah do not drink His own blood. Neither does He permit others to break the Law, and drink blood.
The blood that saves were shed at Calvary Hill in Jerusalem. If flows from the cross. Not to be consumed, but to be remembered.
Did you ever come across the scriptures, that condemn the drinking of blood as a sin?
Have you seen ‘The Hell’ posting…on this sight? It’s very interesting..I suggest you check it out…in fact, I hope you do, especially since you seem to know ‘who’ will judge you.
Andrea, when you have done your homework (as I HAVE) on these matters, and provide me with EVIDENCE of the correctness of your positions, instead of crassly threatening me with burning in Hell, then and only then will I entertain your views. You simply make accusations and threats. Andrea, to put it bluntly, you and your threats do not frighten me one smidgeon. Not one iota. Not one bit. You are in error. I have presented reasons as to WHY. Instead of refuting what I have said with facts (which, by the way, cannot be done, the facts are all on the side of what I’ve been asserting here), you keep threatening me with Hellfire. Please.
I believe in Hell and the Judgement.
God may well judge me adversely, but IF He does, it will be for things that are REALLY wrong, NOT what ANDREA THINKS are wrong.
And my Faith is NOT WRONG. And by the way, Andrea, since I believe in Jesus Christ for salvation and that his blood poured out on the tree atoned for my sins, which blood I and all Catholics place ourselves under, do you SERIOUSLY believe that I can be lost?
Aren’t you one of those evangelical/fundamentalists who believe that someone whose faith is in Jesus Christ for salvation can never, ever LOSE that salvation no matter what he or she does?? Most fundies DO believe that, so no matter how wrong you may think I am on OTHER points, logically, you cannot threaten me, a believer in the LORD JESUS CRUCIFIED AND RISEN, as my Savior, with Hellfire, even if I were wrong on other docrinal points.
You come across as a fanatic: you don’t defend your beliefs with any evidence to back up your broad-brush accusations, you just threaten people with Hellfire over and over, as if that establishes the correctness and accuracy of assertions.
Andrea, I have been around the block. Verse-slinging and threats of hellfire do not scare me into thinking that I have to adopt the views of the protestant fundamentalists. I agree with you on some points (the Trinity, the blood of Jesus paying for our sins, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the reality of hell and judgment) but on other issues, you hold views that conflict with the apostolic church and therefore, to put it simply, on those points you are mistaken. It’s really as simple as that. It really is.
And no amount of your anger and threats of hellfire and damnation are going to change that fact.
Donald Ramsey, I don’t know you, nor have I known you since you started with your effgy for all to hear. I personally do not base my salvation, faith, or my eternal destination on any denomination or any church…none of them went to the Cross for me. Only Jesus Christ
did that, Only His Blood. Now as for strangers, which you are to me, it saddens me that so many who I “do” know their spirit that has talked to you, have given you time and space to rant, your doctrinal beliefs….to me that is much patience bestowed upon a Child of Darkness. As for your belief that Jesus is Lord and His Blood saves, that’s no great surprise…The Demons belief that too and they “are marked for hell’s firey lake” …but it’s their job to deceive, and argue, contrary to a Believer it is not your job unless you have chosen to believe the lies they give you. Which in all your remarkis you do believe it except one…you said that you don’t believe all of what the Catholic Church says…my my my Dear you don’t fully believe anyone do you? That’s not even faithful to the cult you are bound in… All of the Believers in Christ Jesus ‘believe all..ALL of what HE says ..(smile) ..we submitted to His Word not ours, being born again we believe our Heavenly Father…so in short, you too can find peace in giveing all you have and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word. It’s so simple after that ..(His burdens are light…His Word has the last say…(smile).
ivar,
it doesn’t matter how many verses you quote from the OT against drinking blood.
Christ, in John 6, told HIS DISCIPLES, note: his disciples, who were by this time USED to hearing him speak, both literally and metaphorically,
that they would have to receive and eat his body and drink his blood and that if they REFUSED to do so, they would have no Life in themselves. He said this boldly. They were shocked. Taking him literally, they asked, How CAN this man give us HIS FLESH to EAT??? And Jesus (who knows all things and KNEW that they were taking him literally) again re-iterated his remark: You must eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man.
Again the disciples were appalled. KNOWING THAT THEY WERE TAKING HIM LITERALLY, he KEPT re-iterating that they must one day do this very thing.
He LOVED those disciples, very much. But they, taking him literally, were grossly offended by what he said ((and you are offended that I take him literally)). But guess what?? If they were wrong, Jesus refused to tell them so. So they turned away and started to leave. Yet Jesus, who loved these people and would NEVER lie to them or deliberately let them be misled, and leave him on the basis of a misunderstanding of what he meant, and knowing they were leaving BECAUSE he offended them BECAUSE they took his words literally, KNOWING ALL THIS, this Jesus, who loved these disciples and their souls, WOULD NOT and DID NOT, say to them, CHILDREN, YOU are MISunderstanding my words, I am not speaking of my actual body and blood!! Do not leave, but learn that I am speaking symbolically!! NOPE. Not one WORD of that, not even a HINT of anything like that. He LET THEM LEAVE and NEVER follow him again, to their loss. BECAUSE they REFUSED to entertain ANY command, even from HIM, to eat flesh and drink blood. And again, he NEVER made the slightest attempt to tell them they were wrong for taking him literally. He never softened his command in the slightest and NEVER told them he was speaking metaphorically or symbolically. He let them leave and risk eternal Loss.
Jesus would NEVER mislead his disciples like that.
NEVER.
When people understood him correctly, even if they were grossly offended, that was just too bad.
In the temple, he said to the Jewish leaders,
“Amen, Amen, I say to Thee:
Before Abraham ever came into existence, I AM.
And the took up stones to stone him (for this), but he left and made his way out of the temple” – John chapter 8 including vs. 58, et al.
Here, too, the people took him literally.
By calling himself I AM, which he did, he invoked as
his OWN Name, the Divine Name of God almighty, thereby calling himself, GOD ALMIGHTY. The Jewish leaders were infuriated, they believed he was blaspheming (a mere man cannot be God, and the bible says so, and frankly, so does Saint Paul in the NT, yet we know that Jesus IS God, this is a mystery).
Jesus DID NOT CORRECT these men’s understanding of what he said. Why not? Simple, because just like the people, his DISCIPLES, in John 6, these leaders understood his meaning CORRECTLY. He meant what he said HERE, literally, and he meant what he said in John 6 literally, and he was not about to deny the truth by backing down.
Name me ONE PERSON in the entire Apostolically-taught Early church who denied what I believe.
Just One. Name ONE. Just ONE.
You won’t find anyone. What I believe is what they ALL believed, and they were taught BY the Apostles, who KNEW, 100% accurately, what the True Underestanding was, and IS, on this matter of communion. The entire, ENTIRE, early Christian church, including ALL the people who were thrown to the lions, believed what I believe, NOT what you believe. The Old Testament also forbade the eating of animal fat, under penalty of death. Yet Christians today eat animal fat.
Christians, today, also eat blood, including protestant Christians in Latin America and Spain where blood sausages and blood puddings are commonly served, with no qualms of conscience.
Jesus, literally but mystically, literally gives us himself, risen, to eat, as our “communion” with him in body and soul and spirit, whether antiCatholis like it or not.
There are many things in the MOSAIC law which were never meant to be eternal prohibitions. The Church tells you which were permanently intended, and which were not. Eating blood was forbidden, so was eating any animal fat, under the most severe penalties. Do you eat fat? Ever? Are you sinning? The Law of Moses forbade it.
Jesus, the AUTHOR of the Law, has the right to MODIFY or even ABOLISH the Law or a portion thereof. He did so with regard to many things after he had “FULFILLED” them all via his ministry and death on the Cross and bodily resurrection.
The entire early Church, except the sick gnostic cults, believed in Communion as literal. All of them, 100% of them. Not 99%, but 100%.
Do you then dare assert that the Holy Spirit allowed the ENTIRE early Christian church to be in such GRAVE error on such an important, WEEKLY (and it was weekly and even daily, even back then) Practice as the Eucharist/Holy Communion???? Especially when Christ promised – note, promised – that the gates of hell would never, ever, not ever, prevail against the Church that he was ACTIVELY GOING TO BE BUILDING via the Spirit after his ascension into heaven??
To even assert such a thing, is to Insult the Holy Spirit and accuse him of not correcting even 2% of God’s Church on this matter.
Even LUTHER believed in the Real Presence til the day he died.
Dear Donald,
Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father in His glorified body. There is ONE incarnation. To say He is in a million hosts on earth contradicts scripture: To say there is a million Jesus’ on earth deletes the one incarnation.
Acts 1:11
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
The angels could’ve said: don’t worry about it, you can contain Him in a piece of bread and put him in a tabernacle and then he is with you.”
No, they made it clear that THIS SAME JESUS (note that he is referring to this specific man because there would be many false Jesus’ to come) would come back the same way He went. They did not say His body would be still here on earth. To the utter opposite, He would be in heaven.
Jesus Himself said He would leave earth so He could send the Holy Spirit in His physical absence. But the pope says He takes His place on earth.
Scripture says the men that were following him after the feeding of the five thousand were interested in filling their bellies and wanted a free meal.
John6:26
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
He was encouraging the men to follow Him not for His gifts, but for HIM. He equates coming to him and believing in him with eating him and drinking him.
That is not true, that he was equating mere belief in him with eating and drinking him. He who knows all things KNEW that his DISCIPLES were taking him literally and were offended, and he, who loved them, did NOT correct them, if, as you assert, they misunderstood. Instead, he let these people, whom he was going to die for, turn away from him, all due to a misunderstanding that he could have corrected to them with one short sentence, if your view is true. He did not do so. A million hosts dilutes the incarnation? That is ridiculous. He fed that crowd with FIVE LOAVES and TWO FISHES, not 5,000 loaves and 5,000 fishes. Scripture affirms, even after the miracle is over, that the disciples gathered up the fragments of the FIVE loaves. He, God incarnate, miraculously “extended” those five loaves. You folks don’t get that. He “extends” the reality of this glorified body for all of us to imbibe it united to his Divinity. That is a mystery, but he meant it, and let people he loved leave him by the thousands, to their perdition, rather than deny or soften it one whit, much less tell them he was only speaking symbolically and that they misunderstood. They did not misunderstand. They got it, didn’t like it, were horrified by it, and Jesus would not back down, he would not deny the truth of what he said, even to keep his disciples. What you assert implies that he callously let his own followers apostasize from him due to a sincere misunderstanding that he could have corrected quickly with one short remark. All the early christians, all of them, 1st, 2nd century, taught by the Apostles, believed in the literal, real presence of the risen Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity, in the communion. Not one of them denied it and all of them asserted it, and NO pope of Rome ever invented this doctrine, it was universal in Christianity from the beginning.
Dear Donald Ramsey,
You said:
>ANDREA, now you are libelling me PERSONALLY. If I find out your name and address, I may well file suit against you for this. And believe me, I will win<<<
My reply:
You have just exposed yourself as a non-Christian. Christians don't sue each other for having a debate, in which, may I remind you, you instigated? No one dragged you to this site and forced you write comments.
I myself was a Catholic, through and through, just like you. The Lord pulled me out and showed me the true gospel of salvation which is not in a church, but in Him.
I'm afraid you have jumped from the pan to the fire. From JW to Roman Catholicism. You are still in bondage and you are not showing fruits of the Spirit in your speech, barking out insults and threats.
You come on this blog, yelling in CAPS and trying to convert people to a false gospel.
Rethink your delivery and your attitude. Your 'testimony' bears no love whatsoever. Only animosity and pride and the desire to quarrel.
I have compassion on you because I too was like a pharisee. I reach out to you with a sincere heart, wanting to share the love of Jesus the Messiah with you.
Dear Sueliz,
I said what I said to Andrea because what she has said goes way beyond having a dialog.
Your righteous indignation is very selective indeed. She libelled me as trafficking in human souls as merchandise.
You are libelling me, and the true church, from which, frankly, you have defected.
I am sure you did so in innocence and sincerity. But you are still in error.
I am not behaving like a Pharisee.
And how dare you declare me a non-Christian. It is okay to feel that I may be being somewhat rude, but rudeness, even if I were, is not evidence of being a nonChristian, especially in a debate. No one told me to come here? I as a child of God have a right to go anywhere I please as long as GOD doesn’t forbid it.
Refusing to back down when telling the truth is not the behavior of a pharisee, nor of a nonChristian. It is refusal to accept libels against the holy Faith. If you show me evidence that I have spoken a falsehood, verifiable evidence, about the early Christians and their apostolically-taught faith, which was universal, I will back down. Gladly. I have not jumped out of any frying pan into any fire. I was a JW til around age 30. After that, I was an evangelical of the Calvinist persuasion. It was the reading of the early Christians who were taught by the apostles, which shocked me. It made me realize what a horrific lie has been foisted on the protestant and evangelical people. For nearly 500 years.
The early church was NOT originally a doctrinally-evanglical church which gradually apostasized into Catholicism under Constantine the Emperor. It was Catholic, doctrinally and sacramentally, from day One. THAT is the Truth, and it is factually and historically verifiable by anyone who wishes to know the truth. It is not my, or any one else’s, mere opinion. It is truth, fact. As a cultist burned by the JWs and badly damaged by cults and their OPINIt is not pharisaical to defend the truth. The only thing that makes me angry, is Libel especially against doctrinal truths given by the holy Spirt thru the apostles. THAT bothers ME, and it SHOULD bother YOU. Peace to you.
Apologies, in my posted reply to Sueliz, things got garbled near the end. I meant to say:
As a cultist burned by the JWs and badly damaged by such cults and their OPINIONS, I no longer care about personal opinions or private interpretations. I cannot risk going by personal opinions or private interpretations of people whose beliefs popped up out of nowhere in the 16th century and later. I have to have verifiable facts. I will settle now for nothing less, and you shouldn’t either. Otherwise, you will end up getting doctrinally burned. Badly.
As for CAPS, I am not yelling. Please, get over it. I use caps occasionally for emphasis, not to “yell,” because I have found repeatedly that many people today (with out currently quality of lack thereof of public education) cannot grasp why a person uses italics (emphasis) or bolding (emphasis). They can’t even grasp it when reading out loud. That has been my experience over and over and over again. So I do use some CAPS. Never meant to “yell”. And again, my Faith is not a false gospel It is the original. Whether you, or anyone else, agrees or not. If you can show me that this is NOT the faith the apostles left behind in all the ancient churches, then I will back down. But I warn you, there is no histroical evidence whatsoever to support your claim in this regard. I know, I looked for it. For years. Peace to you.
Dear Donald,
Shalom.
It is obvious to me you have many axes to grind. You are rude, boastful and now accusing me of libel? I’m afraid your time is up on this blog. If you keep accusing people of libel you will be spammed.
There is nothing on this earth that will make me bow before bones and idols again. Nor pray to the Queen of Heaven. My “church father” is Paul and Timothy. Luke and John. I don’t need writings a hundred years later to look at, that are not inspired or divine. I live by the Word and not a church ‘father.’
I will not follow a church that locked Jews behind a wall for over 300 years and burned countless Christians at the stake. I will not follow a church that sold indulgences and accepts money for “mass.” as a “gift for the priest.” I will not follow a church that calls for world government and a new world order, a church that has called for a world bank and international climate change laws that would make the constitution obsolete.
I will not follow a church entrenched in covering up the sexual abuse of children worldwide. I will not follow a church that supports the United Nations claiming they should head up the world govt. to come.
If you want back up to these claims, click on my name and on my blog you will find all the facts. Almost all from reputiple catholic news sources.
Donald you have some research to do. You may want to start with the news from catholic web sites
And again, Sueliz, “I” came on here, barking and making threats? Defending the truth with historical facts, is not “barking.” I made no threats, other than a possible lawsuit for libelling me by accusing me, personally, of being greedy and trafficking in human souls as merchandise, That accusation against me is horrendous and false to the core. To the earlier questionier, NO, I am not a Catholic Priest. I would not dare to want to become one. I am not worthy of such a ministry.
But the one making the threats, continually, was Andrea, who keeps threatiening me with burning in Hell, but providing no evidence, at all for the correctness of her position. And it is not Christian nor the fruit of the Spirit, to LIBEL any one, Christian or not, ever, at any time. Libel is a violation, directly, of the ten commandments and all of the teachings of Christ. It is infinitely more serious than all other forms of lying, because it stabs right at the heart of another’s good.
You said…Andrea, who keeps threatiening me with burning in Hell,”…Sweetheart I never threatened you with going to hell…I don’t have that power…don’t want it…Satan wanted it and is still ticked off he can Never be GOD who has ‘all the Power’..(smile)..I do see that if
you are so concerned with what I say and/or concerning Hell…you’d (find prayerfully) some wisdom in what Ivars’ Picture and Remarks on Hell very beneficial…A picture of a Man in a Lake of Fire..I sitll pray you’ll go there and read it.. Pray about it ask Jesus, not Mary. Ask The Father in Jesus Name, ie, Ask Jesus to show you the Truth of that site.. One thing for sure that never changes, when anyone comes to “The Truth” they have a choice the same choice all have had since Time began, Believe God or Not…those who do, will never be the same again..If you notice these are the people who always Lift up Jesus, and try to give you the same truth they received…Freedom, you were in bondage but now you too have that Choice…you did not come to this sight by mistake, either to mock or to debate, ?? If you are a Christian it will always be ”to share” Jesus.. His Truth..a love that transends this anomosity that cones with defending a lost and dying religion of cults!
Donald,
If you are going to debate you need to grow a thicker skin and quit getting bent out of shape over a comment not directed at you personally. You did not address any of the points in my last post.Waiting for your answers.
Sueliz, I never libeled you. Libel is stating a falsehood. Criticizing any political activities of Catholic bishops is NOT the same as criticizing true doctrine. The church does not uncritically support the U.N. I too am no fan at all of the U.N. but it was my church leading the charge, along with the help of Bev LaHaye of Concerned Women for America, for example, that torpedoed the U.N.’s 1995 resolutions in Beijing that would have radically altered the legal relationships between women and men, fatally so. Please, if yu want to talk about church sins, the protestant leaders had each otheer’s folowers massacred. Luther called for the annihilation of Zwingli and all his followers. Calvin hated the Lutehrans with a passion and persecuted them whwereerhe could find them. They ALL persecuted the Jews. Don’t hand me this garbage that those sins wre unique to Catholics. I KNOW better. If you want a colleaggue to rein-in the U.N., I will gladly join you. as will C-FAM, the Catholic Family and Human Rights institute. You may google them. We are currently trying, very hard, to bring about the failure of the very dangerous RIO + 20 conference that is soon to take place in Brazil, and we need all the help we can get, because it will destroy your freedom, all of it, if it succeeds, all in the name of an extreme version of GREEN politics and priorities. It will require, among other things, mandatory abortions and sterilizations of women in all third world countries. We do NOT support such U.N. activities, and we have the pope’s full support in this opposition. The idea of the U.N. as a global forum is a good idea. In practice, it has become very, very dangerous. The popes are not at all uncritical of the U.N. They are the ones having and urging Catholics to gather grassroots support against dangerous U.N. initiatives and urging us to HELP other, non-Catholic activists to oppose these things, too, with our time and our talents and, if we can, our cash. I have been a supporter of Beverly LaHaye and Concerned Women for America for over 20 years, even though I and her hubby, Tim LaHaye, most certainly have many differences when it comes to doctrine. I, and millions of Catholics, also support the Christian Coaltion, the American Family Association, the American Bible Society, Women for Faith and Family, the Conservative caucus, you name it. And millions of us, with the full blessing of our pastors and bishops and the bishop of Rome, are full, emphatic supporters of the State of Israel, too.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
There seems to be some kind of unwillingness to quote scriptures, and to accept some central Christian dogmas. I will try to help you to become a Christian.
Just say:
I believe that man is saved by faith, alone.
I believe that man is saved by the blood of Jesus, alone.
I believe that man is saved by the mercy of Jesus, alone
I believe that the Bible is the highest authority in matters of faith, alone.
Kindly let me know if you are a Christian.
And please, if we are going to talk about Church sins, the protestant churches in the USA through and until the late 1960s, were HAVENS of KKK activity. The relationship of evangelicals and the KKK was so close in the 1930s and 40s that hundreds of real photos exist of evangelical churches full of congregants standing shoulder to shoulder with murderous KKK members in full robed, hooded regalia, with posters behind them, under the cross, bragging of the Unity for the cause of Christ!!! (the KKK!!). Need I remind you that the KKK hates JEWS, too, not only blacks and Catholics?? The protestant churches were FULL of KKK members for decades.
Millions of evangelicals BELONGED to the KKK and participated in their bloody lynchings of innocent black people, torching their homes, their churches, attacking even synagogues, and burning crosses. These men all felt themselves to be good, solid, born-again Christians. Even recently, in Alabama, one of our priests had offered the Mass for the repentant catholic inmates. As the priest finished blessing the congregation, the anticatholic Fundy guard PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED him and started beating him. Russell Ford and other Catholic inmates stepped in and kept this guard from being killed by the hot-tempered inmate for daring to assault a man of the cloth with violence. The massacres by the millions of even the NONviolent American indian tribes, were carried out mainly by members of Protestant religions. Evangelical support of Israel, across the board, is a fairly recent development. In Germany, they say Pope Pius XII did very little to “STOP” Hitler. Well, the German Protestant CHURCHES did basically nothing. In fact, they went further and openly went along with his programme. Very few had the guts and decency of Dietrich Bonhoeffer to stand up against Hitler. I can’t claim that I would have, either. Standing up against a murderous tyrant is very frightening. Those who did, evangelical pastors, Catholic bishops, priests and nuns, all found themselves in the Concentration Camps with the Jews and Gypsies and others the Nazis targeted. Thousands of our priests, and even more of our nuns, were gassed or otherwise murdered in those camps. In the Netherlands, occupied by the Nazis, the Nation’s Catholic Bishops OPENLY denounced Nazi abuse of the Jews there, and what happened? As SOON as they did the open denouncing, the Nazis arrested ALL the Jews of the Netherlands and sent them to Auschwitz.
I am not debating “my religion is better than yours.” I do not defend sinful man’s actions. I want you to see the RCC as an organization is not all sweetness and light as you think it is. This is not the church of the apostles. Luke and John would never murder, wear hats of gold and rule from a golden throne. They were Jewish. Constantine added paganism into the mix and poisoned Christianity. He remained a sun worshiper until death.
The pope is for the green agenda Donald.
http://catholicclimatecovenant.org/resources/suggested-prayers/
The Vatican is against Israel, supports the PLO and wants Israel divided:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4203818,00.html
The Vatican calling for world govt.
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/vatican-the-un-can-head-up-world-government/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/10/25/the-vatican-calls-for-world-government/
Yes, Luther, Calvin and the rest did some wicked things. But I don’t follow man, I follow the Word. The few individuals does not compare to the massive deaths caused by the Vatican for over 600 years with the popes dreaming up the tortures.
I am indeed a Christian, a disciple of our LORD Jesus Christ, and through his blood and cross, a worshiper of His Father.
Your personal definition of what makees a Christian, which you gave above, was not believed by any Christians, anywhere in the early church at any time, not ever. This ALONE, that ALONE, the other ALONE. I will agree that it is solely the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Jesus which atones for our sins and makes possible our salvation in Christ. Nothing else can save. But the early church was taught by the apostles, ALONE. How dare anyone negate their testimony??? Again, the new testament scriptures are very few and very thin and do NOT contain a detailed explanation nor list of Christian doctrines. It is indisputable that the apostles THOROUGHLY indoctinated the entire early church, all over the ancient empire. It is also indisputable that Christ, who cannot lie nor make a false promise nor a false prediction, promised that he would actively BUILD his church, from heaven, and that the gates of hell would never, ever prevail against it. If that church ever taught as dogma, Errors dangerous to your soul, then the devil had indeed prevailed against the Church, in direct violation of Christ’s own prophecy and promise. There is no way around that. Moreover, the early church could NOT have conspired to, in every country and language, have the EXACT same doctrines and EXACT same 7 sacraments. There were no phones, no faxes, no internet, no automobiles, no U.S. Mail or anything like that, to be able to accomplish a conspiracy that successfully created an empire-wide church that, despite different countries and cultures, all believed the EXACT SAME doctrinal things. That is humanly impossible. Only the Holy Spirit could accomplish that.
And if the original beliefs were the ones you listed above, then,
in light of Christ’s (who cannot err, lie, nor prophesy falsely) prophecy and promise in Matt 16,
then WHERE WERE YOUR PEOPLE for 1500 years?
Where were all the Christians who believed in
(1) non-priestly Elders
(2) once-saved, always-saved
(3) scripture ALONE, no church, no authorized
teachers,
(4) a symbolic-only Communion
(5) that Mary had over a half-dozen other children
Good lord, they hadn’t even settled on the Canon of the New Testament until the 5th century, at the council of Chalcedon, although many local dioceses already had basically the entire New Testament, in scroll form. But there was no formal declaration of WHICH of the hundreds of books circulating, ACTUALLY belonged to the New Testament, until the Catholic Bishops at this Council definitively decided on the 27 books and letters that we now use.
Donald,
It amazes me that you come from JW, a man made religion and then follow men from writings that are not inspired. You believe that the Pope is the Shepard of all Christians . According to the RCC:
From Lumen Gentium/ 1964
This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and sincere assent be given to decisions made by him, conformably with his manifest mind and intention, which is made known principally either by the character of the documents in question, or by the frequency with which a certain doctrine is proposed, or by the manner in which the doctrine is formulated.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/lg25.html
To submit your will and intellect to a man is to follow a cult leader. The Vatican tells all Catholics they must submit their highest facuties to them. These faculties should only be submitted to Jesus.
Sir, even if I agreed with these interpretations of the Vatican’s political activities, which I don’t, except that they do, mistakenly, believe that there should be a concurrent Palestinian state for the Arabs, that would still not, one whit, change the status of the truths of Catholic doctrines.
That would just mean that, politically, the Vatican is being an idiot. Politics and dogma are two different things. for 600 years committed tortures dreamed up by the popes? Thepopes did not dream up these practices. They wre in common use since the days of Roman law (not cathlic law). The church did not rise to the level of it’s own creed, that’s all. But it’s CREED, it’s dogmas, were STILL the same ones the early church believed. Moreover, for the 1st 1,000 years of Catholicism, nobody, not even the wickedest, Christ-denying heretics and apostates, was ever killed or burned at the stake. That they later were, is why the Church and State being TOO CLOSELY allied, is a dangerous thing all around.
Catholic doctrines, not one single one of them, did not originate in the late middle ages, so these things are NO evidence, at all, against the truth of Catholicism.
The evangelical, antiCatholic doctrines ORIGINATED in the MINDS of those violent reformers, whose brutality, awfully foul and filthy language (esp in the case of Mr. Luther), whose burning hatred of Jews personally, and whose burning hatred of each other and each other’s followers, is not talked about in protestant Sunday Schools. It is hushed up, swept totally under the rug. I had **never** known about this until I started reading some of Luther’s and Calvin’s works and the writings and letters of those who knew these men and were horrified by their behavior (and I’m talking about men like Melanchthon and other early protestants, not Catholic critics of them).
The protestant interpretations of scripture ORIGINATED in these violent men’s minds. That is very significant. As is the fact that these belief systems never, ever existed in Christianity for over 1400 years. Which means either,
(a) those new, historic doctrine denouncing belief
are ERRONEOUS ***OR***
(b) the Holy Spirit never saw to it that God’s Truths
were kept alive, and for over 1400 years,
allowed all of Christianity to be utterly false,
shot through with falsehood from top to bottom.
One, or the other, either (a) or (b) is inevitably
the truth. And as for (b), I don’t know about you, brother,
but I wouldn’t dare make an assertion like that about the Holy Spirit.
If the evangelicals are right and the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are wrong, then there was NO true Christian community, at all, anywhere in the world, for well over 1,400 years and all Christians, worldwide, believed nothing but a web of lies.
That, to me, is perilously close to blaspeming the Holy Spirit, for “the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it.” Well, if the evangelicals and antiCatholic fundamentalists are correct,
then Jesus was wrong for over 1,400 years and prophesied falsely. I won’t dare accept THAT possibility, either. HE is omniscient, he SAW the future. Yes, the Spirit says that in later times some will fall away from the Faith, saith saint Paul. And yes, some did, all throughout Christian history, but they never taught the doctrines of evangelicalism when they did. They became apostates altogether, usually, or gnostics, or other freaky things, but they never, the defectors, held the things you hold as doctrines. And in our times, in my own Catholic church, you have priests (!!) who condone abortion, unrepentant sodomy, unrepentant fornication, and some (less than 2% of them) even raped and molested little children, which is an abomination. And, today, there are some modernist “Catholics” who deny the virgin birth of Jesus, deny the resurrection of his body, deny the eucharist, deny that he will come again. They too, are fulfilling the Holy Spirit’s warning thru Paul that in later times some WILL fall away from the Faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and to the Doctrines of Demons. That, too, was prophesied, and it is occuring just as prophesied.
But be clear: political ineptitude on the part of the Vatican or any local bishop or bishops, is not the same as doctrinal error nor as apostasy.
I too will write the Vatican (as I have) and urge them to stay away from the U.N. except to observe it and to try to guide it away from dangerous decisions. I too, support 100% an unpartitioned Israel, 100%, as do MILLIONS of other Catholics, and we too DISagree with the Vatican’s political views on this issue, but on dogma? The dogmas are the same TODAY as they were in 150 A.D. when Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp the Martyr, who was taught by Saint John the Apostle, wrote his first and second “apologies” to explain Christian dogma to the Roman pagans, who were accusing us of Eating BABIES at our Sunday Masses, as well as his famous DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO the Jew. Our Faith remains the same. Political stupidity or ineptitude, do not equal doctrinal error, not at all.
Donald,
First off I am a woman.
When did the church become a political nation state? Is the church a fellowship of believers or a political empire. Jesus was not a politician.
Now, lets back up.. So you will willingly submit your full will and intellect to the pope?
So then, those who submitted their wills and intellects to the doctrinal decisions of the apostles themselves, were then following cult leaders, for the apostles, too, were MERE MEN.
There is no way around that. The apostles also TOLD their personally-taught disciples to teach and ORDAIN other men to carry on the teaching of the truth after they were gone. It’s right in the New Testament. The NT bears witness to the reality of this. Be serious. There was nobdoy who had a pesonal copy of the New Testamenbt back inthose days. The scrolls were HUGE. Nobody could do private interpreting of scripture. Do you REALLY believe this wicked teaching that to submit your intellect to those ordained by God to teach, is to follow a cult leader? Then that would make the early Christians free to disobey even the teachings of the Apostles, inspired or not, because they too were mere men. Do you REALLY believe that the Holy Spirit let all of Christianity apostasize for over 1400 years until Calvin came along? That, sir, is insane. It is also sacrilegious, given Christ’s NT-verifiable promises regarding the perpetuity of the Church on earth, to believe that the Spirit allowed that to happen. And IF evangelicalism’s doctrines are correct, and ours the Error, then that is EXACTLY what happened.
Sorry, no way. Christ KEPT his promise.
Sola Scriptura is a man made creed, and IT **was** invented in the mind of one man: Luther. Who, by the way, did believe in the Right to privately interpret the scriptures: HIS right to do so, sir,
NOT yours. You do not hold to Lutheran beliefs. I can tell by the things you have said. If, holding your beliefs, you had lived in Germany in Luther’s time, and had proclaimed them, he would have ordered you to be arrested. He, unlike you, believed still in the literal body and blood of the risen Christ in communion. It was HIS “private interpretation,” and God help you if YOU disagreed with it and said so. The same went for disagreeing, in Geneva, with ANY personal interpretation of John Calvin’s. You would be publicly beaten and even executed, if you did. Some WERE. With Calvin personally watching and approving. And on his authority, Michael Servetus was not burned at the stake, but roasted alive on the stake for several hours, in Geneva. For disagreeing with Calvin, even though BOTH disagreed with Rome.
The “Church” is not a nation state. Vatican City is considered a nation-state, not the Church itself. There are 23 Liturgical rites, east and west, in the Church. Do not confuse the Vatican’s political views with doctrine. Those are the views of a nation-state. This happened in 1929. The church agreed to it, the Lateran Treaty, to keep the Italian government from telling the Church what to do. As a nation-state, although under 280 acres in size, it now has more freedom than it ever did before. If the pope ever disagreed or reversed a DOGMA that had been held for the past 2000 years, then NO, I would not follow him. No pope, even the worst sinner among them, ever HAS. And if one does, he will thereby, by that very deed, FALL from the papal office as a heretic.
Total malarkey. The pope is immune from the law because of his role as leader of a nation state. You speak total falsehood.
I speak no falsehood whatsoever.
The pope may be immune from **Political** law as head of a nation-state, but he is **not** immune from church law, which clearly and unequivocally teaches that any pope who contradicts, denies, or reverses a previously-solemnly-defined Dogma, has thereby become a heretic, has thereby FALLEN from the Catholic faith and by that very deed, has lost the office of the papacy, and all Cathoics are thereby freed from all allegiance to him as holder of that office.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
The pope may be immune from **Political** law as head of a nation-state, but he is **not** immune from church law, which clearly and unequivocally teaches that any pope who contradicts, denies, or reverses a previously-solemnly-defined Dogma.
My reply:
Since the Pope is the head of the dogmas. Can the Pope speak against him self?
I’m not a sir.
The apostles, especially Peter, did not ask ANYONE to submit their full will and intellect to them. They pointed to the Word, the Torah. Jewish believers have existed since apostles. they were not catholic. The were Messianic Jews leading others to the Messiah. Constantine did away with everything Jewish, especially the practice of celebrating Passover and forbid it during the council of Nicea.
Remember the Bereans? They were praised for not believing the apostles at their word, but to check EVERYTHING they said with scripture. We need to follow their example.
Actually, it was Saint Paul, in his letter to the Galatians, who blisteringly condemned the Galatian church for keeping as necessary, the Jewish festivals and feasts as well as circumsision, too. Constantine didn’t do away with anything. The council of Nicea was decided by Bishops. Constantine was an honored Guest as he provided the venue. He, himself, decided nothing, as he was not a theologian. The Council was chaired by Bishop Hosius of Cordova, who was there as the official Representative of the Pope of Rome, whom some of you would have us believe didin’t even exist at this time, LOL.
By the way, I apologize for mistaking you for a guy. Mea maxima culpa !! I’ll come back later, I have to walk to church for evening services now. God love all of you. I may vehemently disagree with you, but as long as you believe in Jesus, you are still part of my CATHOLIC family, even if ya don’t think so.
Peace.
Donald,
Your endless rant has convinced nobody. All true Christians filled with the Holy Spirit discern who you are. Satan is a liar and I don’t care if you use three million words to disguise satan’s agenda, pretending to be some Biblical scholar who has all truth.
Time is short for those followers of satan, and I discern in my spirit through your words the absolute desperate attempt to deceive. I see you as a ravenous, drooling, deceptive wolf. In fact, your words makes me shudder inside and they conjure up visions of a black, hot, eternal hell where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You legalistic trip to the “evening Roman church service” tonight amounts to nothing more than a black magic occult ceremony. You don’t worship Jesus Christ in spirt and in truth. You are a follower of darkness and deceit. Further, YOU ARE NOT PART OF MY CHRISTIAN FAMILY so don’t include me in yours (or anyone else here who has objected to your blowing hot air in a frenzied pace). You seem utterly desperate to take as many souls with you to hell as possible with your false doctrine. But guess what — YOU NOR ANY OF YOUR KIND WILL BE ABLE TO TAKE EVEN ONE OF US WHO BELONG TO JESUS CHRIST OUT OF HIS HAND. PERIOD. So give it a rest. You spew nothing but lies. And Jesus admonishes HIS OWN to have no fellowship with the works of darkness, for which you are apart.
You can huff and puff like the big bad wolf did in the children’s story, “The Three Little Pigs.” But your lies will not prevail against those who have built their house of the truth of God’s word (as opposed to the blasphemous lies of Rome, mary worship and the worship of blood from a dead pope, among other horrors.)
If you remember the children’s story correctly, Donald, the wolf wanted to devour the three little pigs, just like you want to devour and deceive God’s elect. The vile wolf was unfortunately able to blow down the first pig’s house made of straw. He was unfortunately able to blow down the second house made of sticks. But when he attempted to blow down the brick house — a metaphor of those who have built their foundation on the LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE and NOT THE LIES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH — he was unable to penetrate it because it sat on a firm foundation and could not be swayed by false doctrines or lying agents of satan (who follow the pope).
So, what did the ravenous Roman Catholic Big Bad Wolf do now? He was desperate to get to the brick house because he knew his time was running out. Thinking with his pea-sized serpentine brain, he reasoned and plotted and decided to go down the chimney of the house made of bricks. “Yeah, that’s the ticket”, he thought, as he licked his chops. But little did he know that when he climbed upon the roof and headed down the chimney — his eyes covered with snake-like scales — that the Holy Spirit filled “little pigs” had built roaring fire in the fireplace and placed on it a large kettle of water. When the demonic wolf slid down the chimney he landed in the pot and boiled to death — a metaphor for the lake of fire for which satan and all his demons will be cast into.
PRAISE THE LORD FOREVERMORE! HIS TRUTH WILL PREVAIL! THANK YOU JESUS! WE ARE NOT DECEIVED!
You have gone to far, “Donald.” You blaspheme the name of Jesus Christ and worship satan. This is not a matter of opinion, as your own words and doctrins condemn you. Your list of enemies is a long one. You are not filled with the Holy Spirit.
Woe to you, as judgment day comes soon. You will get what you deserve for following “another Gospel”. Your arrogance and lies are not welcome here.
“The Catholic church resisted the mounting heresies with regard to the Person of Christ, and…Protestants would continue to affirm Catholic Christology.” Again, terribly false! Catholicism’s Christology is heretical. It denies Christ’s exclusive role as mediator between God and man, making Mary “co-mediatrix”; it denies the exclusivity of His redemptive work, making Mary “co-redemptrix” (Vatican II credits Mary with a perpetual “salvific role; she continues to obtain by her constant intercession the graces we need for eternal salvation”); and it denies the sufficiency of His redemptive work, declaring that the redeemed must, in addition to Christ’s suffering for them upon the cross, suffer for their own sins here and/or in purgatory, etc. A great deal more heresy is involved in Catholic Christology, such as presenting Him as perpetually an infant or child subject to His mother, perpetually on the cross, but lack of space prevents further detail. The “Christ” of Roman Catholicism is just as false as its “Mary”—as much “another Jesus” as that of Mormonism or any other cult. Let’s admit it!
“Several times in Agony it is stated that Protestants and Catholics embrace the same apostolic creeds. This is a partially true but seriously misleading statement. The implication is that the creeds are an all-encompassing statement of biblical Christianity, which they are not. Furthermore, there is a vast difference between the meaning Catholics and Protestants attach to what the creeds say. For example, while affirming that Christ “suffered under Pontius Pilate,” Catholicism teaches that His suffering was insufficient. In addition to Christ’s suffering, we must each suffer for our sins in order to be saved. We can even suffer for the salvation of others. (The Apostolic Constitution of Jan. 1, 1967, Indulgentarium Doctrina, #1687, urges Catholics to carry “each one his own cross in expiation of their sins and of the sins of others…assist[ing] their brothers to obtain salvation from God”). This is rank heresy to Protestants. Yet Agony implies that Catholics mean the same thing as Protestants by the creeds—an inexcusable and deadly error in a book by eminent Christian scholars written to point out errors within the church! Though this and the other books cited above contain much that commends them, their approval of Catholicism is tragically misleading.
“The false portrait of Roman Catholicism persists in Agony. On page 244, after correctly condemning the sale of indulgences which led Martin Luther to nail his 95 theses to the chapel door at Wittenberg’s castle, the editor/compiler of Agony, Michael Horton, writes, “It would not be fair, of course, to interpret the entire history and character of Roman Catholicism by this tragic fund-raising scheme….” The implication is that Rome has changed for the better, which is false. Though not sold as blatantly now, indulgences are still an important part of Catholicism’s salvation.
“The deviation by Catholicism from biblical Christianity goes to the heart of the faith, to salvation itself, and thus affects the eternal destiny of those who are deceived thereby. Roman Catholicism rejects salvation by faith and preaches a false gospel of works that cannot save. Salvation is not in Christ but in the Church through submission to its edicts and sacraments. The Basic Catechism of Christian Doctrine calls the sacraments “the chief means of our salvation.”
“The first of the seven sacraments is baptism, which is performed upon 98 percent of Catholics as infants. It is declared in Canon 849 to be the means “by which men and women are freed from their sins, are reborn as children of God….” The Basic Catechism declares that baptism “is necessary for salvation …cleanses us from original sin, makes us Christians….” Another sacrament is the Mass, which the Catechism declares to be “one and the same Sacrifice with that of the Cross, inasmuch as Christ…continues to offer himself…on the altar, through the
ministry of his priests.” Canon 904 states that “the work of redemption is continually accomplished in the mystery of the Eucharistic Sacrifice,” thus denying Christ’s triumphant “It is finished!”
“Let me remind you of Hugh Latimer’s last words, spoken through the flames to his companion who was bound to the same stake “Be of good courage, master Ridley…for we shall by God’s grace this day light such a `candle’ in England as I pray shall never go out!” Tragically, the “candle” lit by hundreds of thousands of faithful martyrs burned at the stake, if not already out, is barely flickering and in danger of being snuffed completely. Paul Crouch, head of the largest Christian TV worldwide network, demeans the martyrs by calling the issues they died for mere semantics; and he makes a mockery of the Reformers by declaring orthodox the heresies that sparked the Reformation.
“Those who believe Rome’s lies and follow her gospel of works for salvation are lost. Failing to recognize this fact, many evangelical leaders and cult experts have themselves been deceived by Rome and need to be confronted and informed. How tragic to assume that Catholics are Christians who merely have some peripheral beliefs and practices which seem peculiar to Protestants but which will not prevent them from being saved. A false gospel is a false gospel, and it damns those who believe it, whether preached by Mormonism or Catholicism. A cult is a cult. Roman Catholics, like the members of other cults, need to be treated with compassion, warned of cultic lies, and presented with the true gospel which alone can save them.”
http://www.reachingcatholics.org/cult-cult.html
Dear JM, no, saying the things you say, you are one of those who are NOT part of my Christian family. To say that my worship of Jesus Christ is legalistic, is insulting. To me. It is also bearing false witness against YOUR neighbor, a direct craven violation of God’s law. I have said nothing deceptive to anyone here, at any time, and everything I have said has ALL historical fact to back it up. Even unbelievers are, though reluctantly, forced to acknowledge when confronted with the facts, that these facts cannot be refuted and that the catholic/orthodox doctrines ARE the original Christian faith believed in by all the martyrs murdered by the pagan Romans.
Your calling my church’s reverent, Spirit-filled service last night LEGALISTIC is a crass personal insult to me. But I don’t care, I’m just a creature. But when you call the Original Faith a black magic, occult service, you are going way too far. You are calling the Holy Spirit, the author of that Faith, EVIL, by saying such things. A person filled with the REAL Holy Spirit would be RESTRAINED by Him from making such horrific remarks. In fact, MOST evangelicals are filled with the Spirit of the LORD and would never say what you have said in this thread, for He restrains them.
My religious Faith is not false, not pagan, not apostate, not demonic, not black magic.
I am not “desperate” at all.
And now, because of the blasphemous hearts I see manifested by the horrific words posted in these (some of them) replies, I am going to obey the apostolic command, right now, and shake the dust off my feet and move on.
Do not think that you have won or that God will let you get away with such libel and slander. You haven’t, and, unless you truly do DO NOT REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE DOING and SAYING, you won’t get away with it at God’s hands either. Believe all the private interpretations you want, and ignore the facts. That is reprehensible. Ignorance is not reprehensible, but willful ignorance,coupled with blasphemous libels, IS culpable. Some of you are exhibiting THAT.
So, in those cases, I will obey the words of Jesus and STOP CASTING PEARLS BEFORE SWINE who will (and here are) TRAMPLE THEM INTO THE MUD.
I don’t care what you claim to discern in your spirit. Mormons claim to discern that my church is false in THEIR spirits too, as do the JWs. Their spirits, and yours, are subjective opinions. I don’t go by opinions, I go by verifiable facts.
I warn you: Restrain the things you libellously say. Call me any name you want. Call the Faith given through the Holy Spirit sinful, diabolical, and black magic, and you are on the precipice of the Unforgivable Sin.
It is very real.
And libelling your neighbor, as a practicer of black magic, as you have libelled me here, and all my people, is a deadly sin that the LORD will punish with the utmost severity, especially if you realize you are slandering OR if you have the opportunity, and you all do since you all have the Internet and access to GOOGLE, to FIND OUT if you are lying by saying these things.
I am shaking the dust off my feet.
I am no longer going to cast pearls before swine, as Jesus Christ told us not to do.
One of you threatened to start spamming me.
I warn you: THAT is ILLLEGAL.
If you start spamming my inbox, I will report this to the FBI as well as all branches of the government which deal with such matters.
Do you really want this Leftwing government to receive any complaints along with your email addresses and proof that you are illegally spamming? That threat had better not be carried out. It is illegal to spam people. Doubly so if the target warns you to leave him or her alone regarding their email inbox. This statement here, constitutes my doing just that. It is official, and it is legally-binding.
Donald,
You said: “Do you REALLY believe this wicked teaching that to submit your intellect to those ordained by God to teach, is to follow a cult leader?”
I think that’s begging the question isn’t it? We are saying that RCC clergy are NOT ordained by God to teach. The RCC long ago forfeited any legitimate claim to teaching authority when they demoted the Scriptures in relation to the “traditions of men”.
You said: “Then that would make the early Christians free to disobey even the teachings of the Apostles, inspired or not, because they too were mere men.”
We obey God, not men. We have always had the inspired words of Scripture from WAAAAAY before the Roman church became the RCC.
You said: “Do you REALLY believe that the Holy Spirit let all of Christianity apostasize for over 1400 years until Calvin came along? That, sir, is insane. It is also sacrilegious, given Christ’s NT-verifiable promises regarding the perpetuity of the Church on earth, to believe that the Spirit allowed that to happen. And IF evangelicalism’s doctrines are correct, and ours the Error, then that is EXACTLY what happened.”
No, we believe that God has always had a remnant who were sanctified in the Truth of His word. The Waldensians (whom the RCC slaughtered) had the Scriptures and diligently studied them. Others did as well. Martin Luther was a learned Bible student. So even the RCC contained those who highly valued the Bible. When Luther put the Bible that he had recently translated into German into the hands of Frederick the Elector, Frederick wept. But even then, we do NOT call ourselves “Lutherans” or “Calvinists” because both men were deeply flawed. You raise the point of Calvin lending his approval to the execution of Michael Servetus. That is why it is inconceivable to me that any Christian who pays attention to the New Testament (and I hesitate to call anyone a Christian who does not hold the Bible in MUCH higher esteem than any group of believers) would ever call himself/herself a “Calvinist”. Where in the New Testament does it ever tell us to murder anyone for their beliefs??? The blood of many, many Christians is on the collective hands of the RCC clergy. How dare they insist that their murderous whoredom is the true Church of Christ and that salvation is found nowhere else??? The true Bride of Christ is all those who are devoted followers of the Truth. Jesus, in His High Priestly prayer asked the Father to “Sanctify them in the truth—your word is truth.” (John 17:17)
My Faith is a “murderous whoredom”??? You are blaspheming. I warn you: you better stop it. Not for my sake. It only ticks me off. But I am a mere human. I can’t judge your soul. I ***hope*** you are unaware of the magnitude of what you are saying. If you **aren’t**, then that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Period. To call the Faith handed down by the apostles, “murderous whoredom” is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. No matter HOW saved you think you are.
The Waldensians, followers of Peter Waldo, were rejectors of papal authority, it is true. They also “read” the scriptures frequently. Some were very nice people. I do not condone the way church leaders handled their error and heresy. But the church never did just hear of an error and go out and kill it’s leaders and adherents. They were first counselled and warned, from scripture and tradition**
that they were in error. Repeatedly warned. In the middle ages, serious heresy was regarded as more deadly than even homicide, because heresy was (and is) poisonous to one’s soul. But you don’t kill people for it. Christians would never condone killing people? Please. God killed Ananias and Sapphira for ONE lie, deliberately told, on their parts. St. Peter pronounced the sentence of God on them, individually, and they both dropped dead, and Peter did not shed one tear. They were not teachers of DOCTRINAL errors, either, they just lied, in the presence of the Holy Spirit, about how much money they were donating to the church from the sale of their property. And God struck them dead for it. The apostles pronounced out and out curses on people who turned away from the Faith (and hence, from Christ). You say you follow no men. Bunk. The doctrines you believe orginated, these interpretations of scripture, in the minds of violent, brutal, anti-Semitic men. I don’t care if Frederick the Elector wept at a German translation of Scripture. EVERYONE in the middle ages who COULD read (most were farmers who worked 12 to 16 hours a day or day laborers, all of whom worked too long hours to learn to read), all who COULD read, COULD read Latin, because Latin was taught to ALL in ALL schools. The “masses” of Germans could not even read Luther’s bible. As for that bible, Luther himself dared to declare himself the authority on WHICH books belonged in the Bible, him and him alone. Thus, in HIS Bible, the Spirit inspired Letter of James, 1st and 2nd Peter, Esther, the Letter of Jude, and Revelation, were declared by him to be non-inspired (on whose authority, pray tell???)and placed in an appendix. They, he declared, were not scripture, not inspired of God. THIS is the founder of the basic doctrines at variance with Catholicism that you protestants all embrace. Very flawed men to say the least.
As for our religion rejecting scripture in favor of the mere “traditions of men,” this is also slander, a slander not only against modern Catholics, but against all the martyrs who were thrown to the lions for their faith in Christ. They would be horrified and appalled at what you assert in this thread. THEY were martyrs. Their teachings were taught them,for decades, by the apostles themselves and by the men whom the apostles PERSONALLY TRAINED to be their “successors” in the episcopate AND in their teaching ministry, to hand on the FULL Faith to future generations. Because ***your*** mere private interpretations are at variance with thier, early, Univeral, church-wide, apostolic beliefs, which are catholic and (eastern) orthodox, you dare declare theese Apostolic interpretations the mere “traditions of men.” We have not one single dogma nor sacrament in our Catholic and Orthodox churches which are mere “traditions of men”. They are “tradition” only in the sense that that word means, handed-down. Jesus NEVER condemned ALL tradition, only those made-up by the pharisees, such as their teaching that if you said to your elderly folks, “Everything that I could help you with is instead dedicated to God, then you didn’t have to help your parents, nor honor your father and mother.” These were man-made, wicked traditions, which these men taught as DOGMA. You will never find such a teaching among our dogmas. Not one of our teachings was ever made up by any one man nor little group of men. They were Universal, in all the ancient churches, LONG before Constantine was even born, when it was Deadly-Illegal to even BE a Christian. It is those apostolic teachings, and the holy martyrs who taught them, full of the living Spirit of God, whom you are mocking and ridiculing, when you call this faith a “Whoredom” and mere “traditions of men,” in the most appalling and easily-provable as slanderous, slanders.
Don’t hand me any nonsense about some invisible remnant for 1400 years. The followers of Peter Waldo were a fluke. No-one believing their beliefs existed in the Church for well over a millenium. An invisible church is NOT a church that can obey Christ’s command to witness and teach all nations, because the MINUTE you bear PUBLIC witness to the Faith, you thereby **become** **visible.** So, for well over a millenium after the resurrenction, where were even SMALL groups of people who held to your antiCatholic private interpretations?? A group of Waldensians, in one small area, is not the church. By definition, it cannot be. As for the Cathars, or Albigensians, they could at times write BEAUTIFUL things, but they were a revival of gnosticism, believed in two Equally-Powerful Gods, one good (who created the invisible world) and one EVIL, who created the Visible world (including flowers, trees, your bodies, water, whatever is visible, if it’s made of “matter” it was evil and created by the Evil One.) This was, indeed, a revival of ancient gnosticism dressed in Christian language. The Albigensian sacrament, for the “pure ones,” the highest-ranking members of the sect, it’s most honorable deed, was to voluntarily commit suicide by having another pure one smother you to death with a pillow. Despite what some liars like the late Mr. Chick would claim, the Albigensians were NOT primitive evangelical bible-believers, for pete’s sake they didn’t even believe in the Trinity and believed that matter was evil. Thus, they did not believe, either, that the Good God actually became a man,the man Jesus, because bodies are matter and thus INHERENTLY evil. They, to spread their heresy, attacked our priests and deacons, killed some of them, and occupied OUR churches. Not ALL of them were violent, but quite a few were, and their violence against our ministers was what provoked the very first EVER “Inquisition.”
Some antiCatholics claim that 90 MILLION (Christians) people were killed by the Inquisition in the middle ages. Poppycock. There weren’t even 90 million people in all of Western Europe Combined back in the middle ages. Even secular, anti-Catholic documentarians have produced thoroughly researched programs on the Disovery, History, and other secular channels, debunking these myths. Yes, people were killed for heresy, but never without a long trial after first being exhorted, warned over and over again, with many proofs that they were in grave error and by spreading that error, were endangering the souls of their fellow citizens. They would not stop ((they didn’t usually believe your evangelical doctrines, by the way, either, so they WEREN”T you guys, most of them)). But even the SECULAR, antiCatholic media has, with many proofs, debunked the hysterical anti-Catholic propaganda about the Inquisition. In the entire over 300 year period when it was most active, a total of about 3000 to 4000 people, all in all, in all the countries, were executed. Good lord, 20 times that many have been put to death, at least, by the death penalty, for crimes NOT limited to murder, in the United States alone. Catholic Europe was not some mass-murdering Hellhole for innocent people. And your antiCatholic doctrines, private interpretations all of them, come from men who, themselves, ordered people killed for THEIR private interpretations. No way is the Holy Spirit responsible for this. Were there bad Catholic leaders, esp in the middle ages?? Oh YES. But not ONE SINGLE Catholic doctrine EVER originated in the minds of those men. Not ONE. No Pope of Rome has, either, EVER, invented any, not one, of our Catholic Dogmas.
Not a single Catholic doctrine is or ever has been the purely private conclusion or interpreation of any Catholic pope or popes. Even the Assumption of Mary, declared in 1950 by Pius XII, was declared at the request of MILLIONS of clergy and laity, who were begging him to declare as dogma what all catholics and eastern orthodox Christians had always, always believed about Jesus’s mother.
BUT! some will say, the Assumption only began to be believed in the FIFTH Century. WRONG. A “Feast” or special church Observance, first began to be celebrated in honor of it, widespread, in the Fifth Century. Everybody always believed it. That’s WHY there are NO “relics” of Mary, like there are of other Saints and martyrs going back to the FIRST century. Nobody would ever DARE claim to have a relic of the body of Mary, because all knew that Mary’s body had not been buried away and rotted, but that Christ had glorified the body that had carried the Divine Word, God himself, within it personally, by reuniting it to her soul when her soul left this earth. Churches everywhere were being named after Mary, or after the Assumption, even before the Nicene Council, when Christianity was still a death-penalty offense Religion and your baptism into the church was a death sentence.
The Roman Church never “became” the Roman Catholic Church. It always was, and those of us who have done our homework, and are honest about these things, all admit and acknowledge that, for it is cold, hard, irrefutable fact. You can deny it,
you can howl and call it whoredom, you can mock it, ridicule it, rage against it, but refute it? With facts? THAT neither you, nor anyone else, can sucessfully do. Mock it? Yes you can. Deny it? Yes, you can. But refute it factually??
No, you cannot. Nobody can.
I will pray to the LORD for you, and for all who believe this nonsense you have unfortunately imbibed.
It is pure, selfrighteous, hate-filled bigotry, and full, full to the brim of historical falsehoods and private interpretions of scripture, put forth as dogmas, when in reality, it is THESE private interpretations, and not OUR doctrines, which are, indeed, the (relatively-new) mere “traditions” of “mere” men.
You said:
“That’s WHY there are NO “relics” of Mary, like there are of other Saints and martyrs going back to the FIRST century. Nobody would ever DARE claim to have a relic of the body of Mary, because all knew that Mary’s body had not been buried away and rotted, but that Christ had glorified the body that had carried the Divine Word, God himself, within it personally, by reuniting it to her soul when her soul left this earth. Churches everywhere were being named after Mary, or after the Assumption, even before the Nicene Council, when Christianity was still a death-penalty offense Religion and your baptism into the church was a death sentence.”
What a bunch of Roman Catholic propaganda and lies. It grows old refuting the same old banal cliches over and over and over. There was NO assumption of “mary”. Your counterfiet version of mary is nothing more than the deception of satan himself and he will use “it” in a mighty way to deceive many during the tribualtion.
“Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm.” (Jeremiah 17:5)
Re: The Catholic Confessional
There is not a more demonic or unbiblical practice than the Catholic confessional. The idea that a sinful man can forgive someone’s sins is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. 1st Timothy 2:5 couldn’t be clearer … “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Jesus NEVER gave His Apostles the power to forgive people’s sins. According to Catholic.org
“The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation is a Sacrament in which we are sorry for our sins, confess them to a priest, receive forgiveness for them and are reconciled with God and the Church.” -SOURCE
What a bunch of lies! No priest can forgive anyone’s sins. He can’t even forgive his own sins! Come to think of it, who does forgive the priests sins? Does he go to confession too? If the priest goes directly to God, then why can’t you? Even the corrupt religious leaders of Jesus’ time knew that only God can forgive sin, “…who can forgive sins but God only?” (Mark 2:7).
Re: Sacraments are Unbiblical
The word “Sacrament” is NOT even found in the Word of God, nor is it found in the Douay version (the Catholic Bible). The definition of “Sacrament” is: “A formal religious act conferring a specific grace on those who receive it.” The teaching is that there is a “power” to the Sacraments. This false teaching is NOT taught in the Bible. The Seven Sacraments of the Catholic religion were first affirmed in 1439 A.D. There is NO power conferred through being water baptized, going to confession, partaking of Holy Communion, et cetera. The Lord only instituted the ordinances of water baptism and the Lord’s Supper; BUT, they do not bestow any grace, or any effect, upon the believer. When you get baptized, you are getting wet. Too many religions today have baptism on the brain, and have perverted the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ by sinfully requiring baptism for salvation. You do NOT have to be water baptized to go to Heaven.
Re: The Eucharist
The Catholics worship the Eucharist more than Christ Himself. The Bible could be clearer in Luke 22:19, “And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.” The Lord’s Supper (Eucharist) was simply something which Jesus wanted believers to do to REMEMBER Him … no more. The Catholic religion has perverted the Lord’s Supper into a monstrosity with three heads, tens eyes, and sharp venomous fangs. It’s called “transubstantiation.” Some even call the Catholic practice of Mass, cannibalism, since Catholics believe they are literally digesting Jesus’ flesh and blood. The belief is that the flesh and blood of Christ digest into the human body; thus, giving it’s recipient spiritual strength and renewal. The logical conclusion then must be that one passes Jesus out in their feces as well. What blasphemy!!!
How ridiculous and absurd! There is NO such teaching in the Bible. Jesus simply told us to remember Him. How in the world did some nut come up with the idea that we are literally eating our Savior? Some may submit that Jesus claimed to be the “Bread of Life” in John 6:35; BUT, Jesus also claimed to be the “Door” in John 10:9. Was Jesus a literal door? A literal loaf of bread? It is obvious in John 4:10 that Jesus wasn’t offering the Samaritan woman actual water, but living water, the Holy Spirit. The Catholic religion has no right to pervert the plain teachings of the Word of God; but they do horrible and sinfully. Our spiritual life is nourished by the Word of God (1st Peter 2:2). It is the Holy Spirit of God that empowers and strengthens believers (Ephesians 3:16).
The crazy idea that the Catholic mass has some special power to it is absurd, and unbiblical. The catholic religion is dangerous, teaching people false religion, leading one billion souls into the lake of Fire. The Bible repeatedly condemns self-righteousness (Romans 10:3-4; Mark 7:6-13; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5-6; Romans 3:19-20; Matthew 7:21-23 and John 6:40). Study all of these Scriptures in the King James Bible and you will find that I am telling you the Gospel truth.
Re: The Pope
The Pope is a liar, who claimed in 2005 that a person doesn’t even need Biblical faith to enter into Heaven. The entire concept of Catholic salvation is corrupt, very similar to the hellish teaching of Lordship Salvation being propagated in unsuspecting, carnal, ecumenical and apostate churches today!!! It is evil and a road to Hell.
Re: The Power to Forgive Sins
It is Blasphemy for Priests to Claim the Power to Forgive Sin
According to Catholic.org …
“Jesus Christ, the Son of God, gave the Church the power to forgive sins when he breathed on the Apostles and said: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven.’ (John 20 22:23)” —SOURCE
Please notice this subtle deception of Satan. The above quote made by a Catholic religious teacher didn’t FULLY quote John 20:23 which states, “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”
If what the Catholic Church teaches is true (i.e., that priests have been given the power to forgive sins), then it must also be true that they have been given the power to REFUSE to forgive your sins. If this is true, then it creates a serious doctrinal contradiction in the teachings of Christ, who said in Matthew 6:15, “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Clearly, we have a discrepancy here. If priests did have the power to forgive your sins, but refused to do so, then it would be a sin. So what did Jesus mean in John 20:23? To understand John 20:23, you need to consider Romans 1:16, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth…” The Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is the POWER which opens the gates of Heaven to those who obey it; BUT, it is also the POWER which will send them to Hell forever if they do not obey it (2nd Thessalonians 1:8). Jesus simply explained to the Apostles that by preaching the GOSPEL, they held the keys to Heaven and Hell. Those who believed the Gospel were forgiven; those who didn’t weren’t. The Gospel is the key to Heaven or Hell, depending on whether you obey it or not.
Re: Blasphemy
To claim that Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sin is blasphemy. We’ve already learned that there is only ONE MEDIATOR between God the Father and men, the man Christ Jesus (1st Timothy 2:5). We’ve also read in Mathew 6:15 that God requires us to forgive others who seek our forgiveness, it’s not an option.
In addition, not one mention is made anywhere in the New Testament of an Apostle ever forgiving someone’s sins. This FACT alone speaks volumes against the Catholic religion. Out of all the sermons recorded in the New Testament by the Apostles, not one mention is ever made of an Apostle having the power to forgive someone’s sins. When Stephen preached the Gospel in Acts 7, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Peter preached the Gospel on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, he never offered to forgive anyone’s sins. When Paul witnessed to King Agrippa in Acts 26, he didn’t offer to forgive the king’s sins.
Notice what Peter said to Simon, the former sorcerer, when Simon tried to buy God’s power … “Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.” The Apostle Peter told Simon to pray to GOD for forgiveness! Peter didn’t claim the power to forgive Simon’s sins, nor did Peter tell him to go find a confessional booth. In all the letters (Epistles) which the Apostle Paul wrote to the New Testament churches, he never mentioned or taught anything about the power to forgive another’s sins. Clearly, the Catholic Church is lying!
To whom should we confess our sins? 1st John 1:9 states, “If we confess our sins, he (Jesus Christ) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…” A sinner cannot forgive a sinner on behalf of God. You need Jesus Christ, God Almighty, to forgive your sins and save your soul. Only Jesus has the nail-scared hands and feet; thus, only Jesus has the power and right to forgive your sins. We read in Luke 18:13 that a Publican (a non-religious person) went up to the temple to pray and said, “…God be merciful to me a sinner.” Carefully notice that the man didn’t ask the Pharisee to forgive him, nor did he go to the priest for forgiveness. No, the publican went to GOD ALONE!
Re: Cursed Be the Man that Trusteth in Man
We read in Jeremiah 17:5, “Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.” I marvel at the willingness of the victims of false religion, to follow the traditions of men, instead of the teachings of the Word of God (Mark 7:6-13). The problem is that people continue to believe the excuses and lies of their sinister ministers. If a soulwinning Christian tries to share the Word of God with a lost Catholic, that Catholic often counters with something their priest taught them. The priest’s advice might be total heresy; BUT, the victim will believe it, simply because the priest said it. The reason is because most people are trusting in MAN instead of GOD. Psalm 118:8 states, “It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.”
Re: The Rosary
As an example, some Catholics try to justify vain repetitious prayers with Scriptures such as Matthew 26:44, “And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.” But, asking God three times for the same thing, is very different than mumbling the same dead words (the Rosary) over and over for a lifetime. Furthermore, this was not the norm when Jesus prayed. There are times in our life where we will want to keep asking God for something; but, that is certainly not the same as mumbling the same WRITTEN, dead, repetitious, religious, words over and over. A Catholic repeats 52 “Hail Mary” in each DAILY Rosary prayer.
Jesus clearly stated that the “heathen” pray with useless repetitions. Since Catholics claim that their repetitious Rosary prayers are not “vain repetitions”; then I ask, who was Jesus speaking about? Do you realize that a faithful Catholic who prayers the Rosary every day, will in a lifetime say “Hail Mary” well over 1,000,000 times!!! Think about it. And yet, not one mention is made of the name of Jesus Christ in the Rosary.
Like it or not, the Word of God condemns formalized religion. It is abundantly clear that the nuns who are chanting the Rosary are praying with VAIN REPETITIONS. This is just one example of a manmade tradition, not taught anywhere in the Bible. The Rosary was invented in 1090 A.D. If you trust in man, you WILL be greatly disappointed at The Great White Throne of Judgment one day. If you trust upon Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, Jesus will not fail you (Romans 10:11). I plead with you as a loving friend, forsake the Great Whore of Catholicism, and turn to Jesus Christ alone! Follow the Word of God; not the religion of men, who make a living off of victims like you.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/confession.htm
Oh lord, these comments are so stupid. Not the commentors, but the comments themselves. So very, very stupid. And so darned FAMILIAR. I know. Because I used to make them, all of them. Babylon this, the Great harlot that, Rome is the antiChrist, The papacy is the antiChrist, Catholicism’s Mary is the PAGAN “Queen of Heaven” same as in Jeremiah’s writings, Papal Inventions this, the Inquisition that. You guys are saying anything that I haven’t already heard, and used to say myself, over and over again, for three decades. I have looked into these things. They are bull. So I no longer make thee claims, rather I expose them for the demon-injspired libels that they most certainly are.
But now I am chuckling, because I can’t really get angry at you folks, because I used to say all these things and a lot worse, myself, for 30 years. I could give YOU GUYS pointers, even. I have been to jesus-is-savior.com many times. I laugh at what I read there. what pure, unadulterated, paranoid, misrepresentations of my faith. I won’t dignify this stuff any longer with any futher omments. May the LORD bring you into his full doctrinal truth.
And sueliz, “defending” the Inquisition(s) was not my point, the point is, what went on has been grossly exaggerated, and the “Reformers,” themselves vicious men, were the ones who first spread those agross exaggerations. It’s called “propaganda.”
It works. Nice people believe propaganda. You guys are proof of that. Vicious persecutors, men like Luther and Calvin, condemning religious persecution. Such hypocrites, condemn in others what they themselves were doing. Jesus be with you all. Peace. Good night.
Donald,
Don’t you have some blood of a dead pope to bow down to and worship and kiss somewhere? Or are you saving your “adoration” for Peter the Roman?
Your twisted convoluted cut and paste job won’t defend your own stupidity, arrogance and lack of discerment when you will stand before the King of Kings at the Great White Throne Judgement 1,000 years from now.
We’ll see how far your roman propoganda gets you, your mocking tone, and your utter failure to address valid points about the cult you are part because you have no answers.
I’ve debated plenty of your kind and it’s the same song and dance — calling out names as if you have a superiour intellect and all the while you have been check-mated with a truth you can’t defend. You lost. Deal with it.
When you find yourself pleading your case at the final judgement and are pronouced GUILTY AS CHARGED – and we’re not talking merely “purgatory” but a sentence of eternal damnation don’t expect “mary” to come to bale you out. Don’t expect some “saint” that you called upon during your bouts of necromancy to will arrive to help. Don’t expect a rosary bead will make God change Him mind. Don’t count on the blasphemous blood of a sinful dead man that you once worshiped while you were alive will redeem you. There will be no “get out of hell free card” for you Donald, and no amout of money or “mass” said in your behalf will set you free from the fate you have chosen for yourself.
O’ “scholarly”, pride-filled man who claims to know more than God! Woe to you. Enjoy the show while you can, trecherous wolf. Judgement day is almost upon you.
Donald,
You said: “As for the Cathars, or Albigensians, they could at times write BEAUTIFUL things, but they were a revival of
gnosticism, believed in two Equally-Powerful Gods, one good
(who created the invisible world) and one EVIL, who created the Visible world (including flowers, trees, your bodies, water, whatever is visible, if it’s made of “matter” it was evil and created by the Evil One.) This was, indeed, a revival of ancient gnosticism dressed in Christian language. The Albigensian sacrament, for the “pure ones,” the highest-ranking members of the sect, it’s most honorable deed, was to voluntarily commit suicide by having another pure one smother you to death with a pillow. Despite what some liars like the late Mr. Chick would claim, the Albigensians were NOT primitive evangelical bible-believers, for pete’s sake they didn’t even believe in the Trinity and believed that matter was evil. Thus, they did not believe, either, that the Good God actually became a man,the man Jesus, because bodies are matter and thus INHERENTLY evil. They, to spread their heresy, attacked our priests and deacons, killed some of them, and occupied OUR churches. Not ALL of them were violent, but quite a few were, and their violence against our ministers was what provoked the very first EVER ‘Inquisition.’ ”
I agree that the Albigensians had a number of heretical beliefs but for that, the RCC felt entitled to murder them??! Your white-washed version of the account notwithstanding, not ONE of them should have been murdered for their errant beliefs. And yet thousands were cruelly slaughtered by one of the Pope’s generals.
JM…you are wrong on so many levels. You ahve a fundamental lack of understanding of Catholicism, theology, dogma, doctrine….and even the words of Christ. There are many Bible verses which contradict what you have said about Mary, about prayer, about confession of sins, and the Eucharist especially.
The Eucharist IS the New Testament..it IS the New Covenant…Christ himself says so. The books we call the “New Testament” are the books OF the New Testament, or covenant. The Eucharist is Christ’s sacrificial atonement for our sins, yours and mine. This new and final sacrifice replaces the old Covenant, the old sacrifices,the holocaust of animal blood, is ended forever by God Himself. The Eucharist is the fulfillment of Passover. We don’t need eat the flesh of the lamb in the Passover meal. Christ, the Paschal Sacrifice, is the Lamb of God. He is THE sacrifice, and we consume His Body and drink His Blood. Sound crazy? Read the 6th chapter of the Gospel of John. Christ tells us if we do not do this, we have NO LIFE IN US. He commands that we must do this. Then at the Last Supper he states, “This IS my Body…” as he institutes the New Testament. It is impossible to say otherwise in truth in the light of these texts and Paul’s statements on eating the body as well.
To say Catholicism is a cult is to say Christ founded a cult. Ridiculous. The Catholic Church did not spring up from some guy with an idea for a church, some madman, some delusional wrong-headed fool…it was born with Christ and has continued ever since. Seriously, you need to read the early Church Fathers, those of the first and second centuries, pre-Nicene Concil, and see the true formation of the Christian faith in all its Catholic glory. The Christian world was Catholic for 1500 + years before the heresies of the Protestants. Christ founded the Catholic Church, it is a matter of history, not of faith. Read the writings of Justin Martyr in the second century, it will open your eyes to the truth and turn you from your hatred for Christ’s Church.
To say formalized church is wrong is to go counter to the words of Christ who stated he was building a church on the foundation of Peter (the Catholic Church). In fact, the Gospels are the first use of the word “church” ever. Church without authority (Christ gave His authority to the Apostles, who passed in down through the ages) is a recipe for the Protestant madness the world is suffering through.
Donald.
Stop writing huge long booklets. It’s too hard to read. Break it up in smaller posts.
Keep defending the Inquisition Donald. How very sad.
again, “defending” the Inquisitions was not the point. The point was, it has been proven that the wrongs of the Inquisition have been grossly, monumentally, gargantuanly, distorted by the antiCatholic camp. The distortions, the lies by liars, began with and were spread by, the Reformers, who themselves were vicious persecutors of other PROTESTANTS who didn’t agree with THEM and their private interpretations. Luther hated Calvin, and wanted to kill Zwingli and all of his followers, Zwingli loathed and abominated Luther and called him every name in the book, wishing death and hell on him and vice-versa, Calvin hated EVERYBODY else outside his camp, Henry VIII, who brought the Reformation to England, was a whoremonger and a wife-murderer and an apostate from the truth as well, King James, of the KVJ fame, was a notorious practicing sodomite, all these people supposedly were God’s instrument to restore the church to it’s long lost truths? Come on. When, any time in the Old Tetament, did God raise up NASTY men to restore his truths to the people? I can’t name one. The Reform could not have been of the Holy Spirit, because while the ReformERs all believed that Rome was “WRONG” on many points, they themselves could not agree, although allegedly all raised up by the Holy Ghost to restore the truth, could not agree what that Truth that needed to be restored WAS. They disagreed majorly, not just on minor points. Baptismal regeneration? TRUE, said Luther. Demonic Falsehood!! said Calvin, but BOTH believed in baptizing babies. Other reformers said that this was an Evil practice. The anabaptists were hated by ALL the earlier reformers, and themselves were violent rioters against their fellow protestants, who believed that the anabaptists should all be killed (and many were, by their fellow protestants). If you were a presbyterian, and set foot in Germany proclaiming Presbyterianism, Luther would have had you strung up. These men hated each other and each other’s followers, with a passion, yet we are to believe that they were “raised up by God” as we were told, to do this very thing. They hated each other fiercely, yet today in Geneva, there is a set of statues of ALL the (mutually-loathing) Reformers, standing next to each other like they were all good friends united in a common, loving, noble cause. Good lord, if they had stood that close to each other in real life, they would have slit each other’s throats, it was that intense. And I am to give up the historic faith for the interpretations of THESE men??? Christianity, true Christianity, did not begin in mideval Europe in the 16th century, NOR was it “resurrected,” much less “restored” there, by those guys.
“We only follow the Bible!!!” Please, EVERY heretic says THAT. The JWs say that. The Mormons are the only heretics who don’t say it. What folks follow, is their private INTERPRETATION of the bible, given them by the Holy Spirit, who, it is claimed, gives the exact opposite interpretation to Joe Blow down the street at HIS evangelical/fundy church. Nobody follows “only the bible,” even if they WANT to and even if they THINK they do. NOBODY does. The Bible does not contain a list of inspired, correct interpretations. It is not written in the form of a thorough catechism. Especially not the New Testament. NOR IS THERE, in the New Testament, ANY “LIST” of Inspired Books that belong in the New Testament. Like it or not, it was the Catholic Council of Chalcedon which defined, for all time, which books and letters belonged in the New Testament. And it was the 27 we all have now. Make no mistake, folks, CATHOLIC BISHOPS determined which books would be in the New Testament. The 27 you now venerate and study, were decided upon by the CATHOLIC BISHOPS whom you cal “WHORES.”
ANd now, I am going to pray for the happy repose of a very gentle and loving Christian soul, a catholic bishop, my auxiliary bishop of Miami, Mr. Agustin Roman, originally from Cuba, and devout lover of Jesus Christ and His people, and a gentle and generous shepherd, who died suddenly tonight of a heart attack at age 83. Some of you might mockingly announce that he is probably in Hell. Yeah. He would have taken a BULLET for YOU.
Dear JM and Donald.
Shalom.
Both of your posts are too long
. This so called debate is pretty pointless
Donald. You come here with your boxing gloves on looking for a fight. Did you find it?
When debaters start insulting and name calling the debate is over.
Unless you can debate keeping your head on straight without losing your cool it’s better to wish each other well and move on.
Please find another site to debate. If commenters can’t season their speech with grace it’s best to not comment at all.
May the Lord have mercy on us all.
In Him
Sue
Dear JM and Donald.
Shalom
Please listen to the moderators:
1. There is no debate when people write long comments.
2. People do not read each other points, and the writings jumps around in a pointless manner.
Please write short messages. Highlight one points at the time.
I have over the years noticed the spirit that runs inside Roman Catholics. It is a jumping jack. You ask one simple question, and get a copy of history of the Roman Catholic Church in return.
It is like talking to a wind mill.
The history of the Roman Catholic Church?
It goes back, verifiably, to 300 years before Christianity was even LEGALIZED. To the time of Christ.
Of course we will reference that.
Your faith and doctrines go back, oh, only about 500 years. Way too late to be the truth against which the Gates of Hell would never prevail, as Christ promised. If we say or imply that his promise failed, we call Him a liar.
Dear Donald
Shalom.
Thanks for writing short messages, so we can take one point at a time.
There was no Roman Catholic Church before 315 A.D. And no pope, or an “infallible bishop of Rome”, a “Holy father:”.
In India, the Apostle Thomas established a Church in Kerala in 52 A.D. It had nothing to do with the Roman Empire, who were brutal pagan occupiers of Jerusalem.
What kind of Church was this?
It was a baptist church, who did as the Apostles. They baptized people who:
1. First confessed faith in Jesus.
2. Next: Promised to obey His commands.
Since this Church was not under Rome, they did not banish everything Jewish. They kept up holding the Sabbath from 6 PM Friday night to 6 PM Saturday night.
I did not come here to fight with evangelicals. If you’ll note, I was ON THE SIDE of those who criticized Catholics for making an ARTIFICIAL face mask for St. Padre Pio’s body. I did not like that, and I still don’t. But fundies, not me, came on here and started attacking my Catholic faith as soon as they found out who I was and that I was Catholic. THEY started attacking, I did NOT.
One last thing,
about the threats to start spamming me,
I have, above, told anyone and every one who is planning to start spamming my inbox, NOT to do so. It is Illegal. Especially when you have been told not to do so. I again reiterate, do NOT do that to me.
Now that I have said so, twice, right here in the thread, let me warn you that henceforth, all such spamming is legally, not only “spamming,” but deliberate harassment using the email. THAT, good people, is a Felony. Also, since it is done using internet mail, it is a FEDERAL offense.
I do not, have never, and will never, spam anyone’s inbox.
So again, do not spam my inbox.
May the LORD JESUS lead you into all Truth.
Peace, and goodbye.
Donald, a couple adopted a child in the war torn country of England during the 2nd World War. The child brought to America was given much food, warmth of home and soon friends. Yet the couple still had a horrible time with the child every day in the early
and late afternoon. They took the child to the Dr, they did some research. The child would hide under furniture and in closets screaming when brought out. It turned out, that where the child lived with his parents, was an apartment building that was blown up and the planes flew in the early morning and late after noon all needed to hide. Many people are seeking what ‘I and others have’..Jesus Christ…by His Grace we believed and accepted His Salvation. but those who have fallen for so many ‘other voices’ find themselves like this little boy, hiding when ‘certain words, phrases’ spoken…to an Saint or Sinner God’s Wrath is horrific, but to His Children our fear of His Wrath is not for us, it is for those who have done to you and many others like you (us too) the lies and deceptions, these if they don’t repent and turn to the One who is there to help them and cover them with His amazing love…these will be held in Contempt of His Majesty. This is the reason we all are ‘crying out’ ..Stop with all the rhetoric of history of Church’s, cults or any thing else, Stop and be a Teachable Spirit and ask..Lord Jesus am I mistaken am I following a false religion?
Father in Jesus Name please help my unbelief, open my heart to receive YOUR Truth… I do want to know the Truth. In Jesus Name I pray. Prasy to Him as if your very Eternal Destiny depends on it…For it does! It really does. But if you decide to believe so quickly to deny what we ‘re all trying to tell you..then Sweetheart, the only sad ones will be us for we don’t want you to perish knowing we tried so hard to share the Glorious Truth you are seeking and chose to believe Catholiscism … Ask your Priest if The Pope and the Catholic Church will sell all they have and give to the poor, to help you etc??? I think not…but our Saviour gave HIS Life for YOU for us all.
Suzi…thanks for the reminder…of the length of the posts..
Donald.
To be spammed means we will block you from posting on this site. It does not mean we will send you messages to your email inbox.this is blogger lingo. No one from NTM would EVER send unwanted emails to anyone.
Donald,
You said: “My Faith is a “murderous whoredom”??? You are blaspheming. I warn you: you better stop it. Not for my sake. It only
ticks me off. But I am a mere human. I can’t judge your soul. I ***hope*** you are unaware of the magnitude of what you are saying. If you **aren’t**, then that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Period. To call the Faith handed down by the apostles, “murderous whoredom” is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. No matter HOW saved you think you are.”
I don’t think you really understand what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is. If it was what you say it was, the risen Christ would be guilty of it as well, when He criticized the seven churches of Asia Minor. Tell me, did the Holy Spirit lead the Inquisition? Did it lead monks to create the “iron maiden” and the “rack” to torture the poor unfortunates who managed to come into their grips for the “sin” of daring to defy the cruel oppression of the RCC? You would like us to dismiss those examples of murderous conduct? Okay, then let’s skip ahead to modern times. Did the Holy Spirit lead a fairly large proportion of priests (the estimates run as high as 40%) into homosexuality? And the greatest outrage of all—did the Holy Spirit lead a significant number of priests into sexually violating children? Were the Roman hierarchy led by the Holy Spirit when they sought to cover it up? The Pope’s own brother was involved in covering up the violation of children. 150,000 children in Ireland alone have been sexually violated. Did the Holy Spirit lead priests in the Netherlands into the diabolical action of castrating young boys that they had sexually violated? You sir, are presumptuous in questioning my salvation for standing up against what should NEVER have occurred in an institution that claims to represent Christ on the earth! Do you not think the Lord Himself is outraged over such things. Do you think that we who belong to Him should keep silent? There has been too much silence for too long.
No Catholic condones the abuse of children by priests, or anyone else. The number who did so is verifiable, less than 2%, by even antiCatholic secular sources. Your ministers also do it, but the press doesn’t go after YOU, you aren’t BIG enough. The JWs, who also mock us, their “ministers” ALSO do that, many more than ours ever did ((which is why one of my best friends renounced the JWs and because a n evangelical Christian— his own wife’s uncle had been having full inercourse with his own DAUGHTER since she was nine years old, and the “authorities” instead of excommunicating him, which they brag that tthey always do, actually promoted him and ever even prublicly rebuked him even in a generic way. I’m through with you people. You are liars and bigots, full of nothing but opinions and broad brush attacks and generalizations based upon the sins of a very proportionaltely few. “Monks” did not create the rack. That practice was hundreds of years old. You believe a grotesque exxageration of what went on. I am finished with all of you. May God enlighten you. As for me, I will have nothing more to do with you. You loove your selfrighteous hastred more than you love an objective examination of all verifiable historical truth. You CANNOT REFUTE the Catholic faith. you can only accuse and attack it. Mary worship, indeed, you deliberate liars. Bone worship, indeded, you deliberate liars. May God have mercy on you. Until then, get lost. Take your 16th century, manmade fundy paranoid nonsense and tell it to the goldfish. Those of us, burned by falsehood for 30 years, and who have done our homework to PREVENT that deceit from EVER happening to us again, are not fooled with your foaming-at-the-mouth,but utterly unsubstantiated attacks, against the doctrines of our Faith. Talk about some of the sins of some our members all you want. Heck, I’ll agree with you on much of that. I fight those B***TARDS too. But the doctrines of the Faith? Calling THEM whoredom? Idolatry? Mary Worship? Bone worship? BLACK MAGIC?!?!?! No, you are doing EXACTLY what the Pharisees did when they accused Christ and the apostles of working great wonders through nothing other than Satanic power. And they, like you, claimed to be thoroughly versed in Scripture itself, which is what made their willful blasphemies Unforgivable. Tell it to the Oak Trees.
Nobody, nobody INFORMED, that is, falls for this hate filled pure CRAP you are spouting, in God’s name.
My, my—talk about “foaming at the mouth” Donald? Your little emotional diatribe does nothing to change the fact that there is a pervasive element of perversity and the occult in the RCC. An attempt at deflecting criticism of the RCC by citing the Jehovah’s Witnesses is like saying, “Well, at least we’re not as bad as ___.” (fill in the blank).
You said: “But the doctrines of the Faith? Calling THEM whoredom? Idolatry? Mary Worship? Bone worship? BLACK
MAGIC?!?!?! No, you are doing EXACTLY what the Pharisees did when they accused Christ and the apostles of working great wonders through nothing other than Satanic power.”
Not at all. My husband was actually saved in the RCC through hearing the Gospel readings on Sunday mornings. The Biblical doctrines of the faith (doctrine should NEVER be anything but a distillation of what the Bible teaches) do exist in some Catholic teaching—but it comes with a lot of additional junk from men (often dreamed up by the RCC hierarchy for political purposes). Your Pope is busy going about seeking to find “common elements” between the RCC with other religions (there was just an article here telling of his visit with Buddhists yesterday, I believe). This website is dedicated to warning not only non-Catholics, but Catholics as well, of the dangers present in belonging to the RCC. Sorry to see that you are so emotional on this subject. You will need to use your head if you are not going to be dragged into apostasy (or worse). May the Lord bless you with His Truth from His word.
Amen Ellen ..they just don’t realize that ‘anything’…”ANYTHING” other than the Lord Jesus Christ (The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob)..This GOD of the Old Testament ”IS” the Same as The New Testament.. is already on the wide path to Hell’s Suffering..in short the Wrath of God
…Oh Lord it’s horrible to realize this truth, we beg, we plead, we pray, and spend our life with each unbeliever, yet (some) truly the hearts of the unbelievers harden daily ..yet the enormity of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ (The Son of GOD) would indeed take Eternity to have the continued Wrath of God and all the Demons and all in Hell to torment just one person/and or Demon for they will mock them…for they KNOW and they have lied to these who defend the Catholic, JW, and so many more..it’s crazy…they refuse His Salvation..to suit their own pleasure, or self absorbed suffering, and knowledge of the World…We are so close to this very thing happening. ..This GOD of the Old Testament ”IS” the Same as The New Testament. HE came in the Flesh! The Blasphemy to take His Birth as a 13 year old girl holding a The little Baby Jesus and then ‘at Calvary put that Man in her lap to show her suffering and motherhood…is sheer Blasphemy!! This is The Lord of Glory..!
I am “emotional” on this subject because I have done my homework, done the historical research, and know for a fact that the early church, all of it, was Catholic. The Christians of India who have been there 2000 years, are Catholics, even those in Kerala whom you ridiculously claim were Baptsists – a sect that first came into existence in the 1600s.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
The Christians of India who have been there 2000 years, are Catholics, even those in Kerala whom you ridiculously claim were Baptsists – a sect that first came into existence in the 1600s.
My reply:
Where the Baptists in India in 52 A.D a sect?
Did they first come into the existence in the 1600s?
What about John The Baptist, who baptized a man named Jesus in the Jordan river?
Where John the Baptist also sectarian?
Just like Jesus of the Bible?
Ellen said “My husband was actually saved in the RCC through hearing the Gospel readings on Sunday mornings.” Hearing the Gospel does not save…it is a road TO Salvation, for only Christ saves…and it is a road, not a once saved always saved fallacy which is proven false by many, many Bible verses, including the words of Christ Himself. Ellen also said, ” The Biblical doctrines of the faith (doctrine should NEVER be anything but a distillation of what the Bible teaches) do exist in some Catholic teaching—but it comes with a lot of additional junk from men” …well Ellen, “additional junk from men” existed before the Bible was ever set down. Doctrine pre-dates the Bible, so your view is false and invalid. Go back in time to 45AD and ask any Christian (who would have been Catholic mind you) where they got their doctrine from…for there was no book other than the Torah. It came from men, who passed on what then men who received it from Christ had taught them. Let me ask you something, where in the Bible does it mention the Trinity? Nowhere. Yet that is a foundational doctrine of Christianity. Where in the Bible does it say to follow the Bible? Did Christ say it? No. Nowhere. We follow the teachings as passed on from Him, the Lord. Some of these were later written down to help us. The Gospels are by no means exhaustive of the truth (as the Trinity example points out), or ever signified as the only source of His truth. History, in fact, shows that the Truth existed before the written word in the mouths, hearts and minds of men, passed down in tradition. Your opinion of doctrine is just that- opinion. It has no basis inreality when viewed in context of actual Church history. The RCC rests on 3 legs…Scripture, Sacred Tradition (older than scripture), and the Magesterium (the teaching Authority given by Christ Himself, as noted in the Bible). If your husband had left the Catholic Church, the fullness of the revealed truth, for some other Church founded by someone other than Christ, than he needs to come home and turn from sin and heresy if you truly want him to be saved.
Ivarfjeld wrote: “Where the Baptists in India in 52 A.D a sect?
Did they first come into the existence in the 1600s?
What about John The Baptist, who baptized a man named Jesus in the Jordan river? ”
Ivarfjeld, There weren’t Baptists, as you know them in India in 52AD. Baptists as you know them are the 17th century invention of a man who rejected the truth in favor of his opinion. Those Christians were Catholic.
As for John the Baptist…what does the Bible later say about his baptism. After Christ, his baptism is invalid, because John did not baptize in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. That was not possible before Christ. Yes, John “baptized” Jesus, yet John was aware that with the advent of Jesus, that it was he who needed baptism, not Jesus. Jesus had no sin to be cleansed of in baptism, he was sinless from birth, the spotless lamb without blemish. John’s baptism was a precursor, an advent of the true coming baptism, a call to repentence as the Christ came into the world. John was not sectarian…he was a jew. He certainly was not a Baptist, though he was the baptist. He preached baptism by water, which the RCC affirms is absolutely necessary for salvation, as stated by Christ Himself, among others in the Bible, yet even John himself notes that Christ will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
You stated the Apostles kept the Sabbath. St. Paul mentions that they gathered on the first day of the week, the Lord’s Day, the day of His Resurrection, to pray and celebrate the supper of the Lord…the Catholic Eucharist.
Ellen.
You hit the nail on the head.
In Him.
Sue
As I said, shaking the dust off my feet.
You cannot refute anything I said here. You can deny it, you can falsely call it a lie. You cannot refute it, either historically or scripturally. ALl you can do is libel, mock, and curse. ANd throw out
out-of-context scripture snippets. Fundies are past masters at this game. I am way past that, I graduated from that School of Idiocy years ago.
No more. Dust off my feet. No more casting pearls before swine. Block by posts. From people like you, that action wuld be an honor.
I have no fear, none whatsoever, of being judged by God for my Catholic faith nor it’s doctrines. My sis? Yes, if I fail to repent. But my FAITH? NEVER. It IS the original, and I am not PRETENDING to know. I have done my homework, for years. I **DO** know, and know for 100% FACT.
That should read, My sins? Yes, if I fail to repent, and, above that:
Block my posts (not “by” posts). From people like you, that action would be an honor.
Again, I will not, nor will any Catholic, be judged adversely by God for my Catholic Faith nor for it’s doctrines, they are the original, they are 100% True. My sins? Yes. My faith? Never in ten billion years.
Donald,
You said: “Again, I will not, nor will any Catholic, be judged adversely by God for my Catholic Faith nor for it’s doctrines,
they are the original, they are 100% True. My sins? Yes. My faith? Never in ten billion years.”
Hmmm—“priestly intercession” “purgatory” “Maryology” “the veneration of dead bodies” “praying to saints”. For your “Catholic Faith”? Are you admitting that Catholicism is not the Christian faith? Not even close to “100% True” , Donald. I agree with Ivar, if we are so odious to you, why do you insist on coming here? Self-punishment? Yep—that would make you fit right into the paganism practiced among Catholics. John Paul II was said to whip himself everyday.
Seriously, if you are going to stay in the RCC, you should jettisone all the add-on junk and just adhere to the basic Biblically-based doctrines. I pray that the Lord would show you the truth from His word by the power of the Holy Spirit.
This is false it can be 100% true during biblical times they haven’t exhumed skull venerate it
Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
out-of-context scripture snippets. Fundies are past masters at this game. I am way past that, I graduated from that School of Idiocy years ago. No more. Dust off my feet. No more casting pearls before swine. Block by posts. From people like you, that action wuld be an honor.
My reply:
It is always amazing to see self proclaimed martyrs, putting them self in the painful situation of coming back to this website again, and again. Please do not wait for the spam button. You are a free man.
Unbelievable we are warn not bow down or worship idols gods just like RC doing this really satanic indeed
Sorry Tiviani. Our God is the Holy Trinity Alone, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. THAT, and that alone, is the God of the Catholic Faith. That God, ALONE, we worship. Do we Honor/venerate, others? Yes. So do you. You honor and venerate your parents. That is not worship, and you are smart enough to know that. Neither is it worship to venerate Mary, Joseph, the Archangel Michael, the apostles, or any other of God’s Friends. Nor to speak to them (pray from the French prieus, to speak with, this word is NOT synonymous with “worship.” Worship is an attitude of the heart, and we do not worship ANYONE other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Priestly intercession? Of course, the same as you intercede for your friends. Purgatory? Believed in for centuries by the pre-Christian Jews (who still believe it, only they believe it only lasts a mere 12 months, so they pray for the dead for 11 months). All the early Christian writers who wrote about the afterlife, believed in it, including Calvin’s favorite theologian, Augustine, Bishop of Hippo. These teachings are WAY Pre-Constantine, these are the original beliefs of all the aerly christian Martyrs who were thrown to the lions. Kiss a relic? Sure I will, but that is no more “worship” than is sentimentally kissing a picture of my dead grandma. Difference is, God has sometimes worked miracles through relics, that’s all.
You guys mock and curse and misrepresent what you really do not understand one whit of. That is truly sad.
Tivani, you are ignorant of the facts. Catholics worship only God, the Trinity alone. We do not worship Mary, the Saints…not especially any statue or painting. A statue of Mary is a mere representation whose intent is to focus our mind upon her. A statue of Chist is just a representation of Christ, a thing. If I pray in kneeling before it, I do not pray to the statue, but to Christ, the one representated in the statue, the Lord. The statue is to focus, to help remove the ideas of all other things and to focus in prayer with a singular eye, as Christ would say. There is a vast difference between this and idols as spoken of in the Old Testament, or in the Roman pagan gods, for they believed gods lived in the statues, that the idols had powers. Catholics do not believe any such thing. We worship only the Lord. We venerate the Saints, because we believe that in their holiness they in death have become the cloud of witnesses spoken of in Revelation, the holy ones before the throne of God. To venerate is to honor, as you are bound to honor your mother and father. It is a far, far different word than worship. God alone is worthy of worship. Satanic would be spreading lies and deceptions in place of fact to lead people away from truth, as you are doing.
Lol
Donald,
You said: “The pope may be immune from **Political** law as head of a nation-state, but he is **not** immune from church law, which clearly and unequivocally teaches that any pope who contradicts, denies, or reverses a previously-solemnly-defined Dogma, has thereby become a heretic, has thereby FALLEN from the Catholic faith and by that very deed, has lost the office of the papacy, and all Cathoics are thereby freed from all allegiance to him as holder of that office.”
To bad there’s not a “morals clause” in the popes’ contracts with the RCC. That would have tossed a fair number of them out. Twisting the Bible around to support their perverse doctrines should also have gotten many of them tossed out. A good tree is known by its good fruit.
Ellen, this is really silly. Their perverse doctrines? Not one Catholic doctrine, not one, was invented by any of the 265 Catholic Popes. Not one. And you can not accurately name one. People have tried. Many of them tossed out? You overstate the case, for sure. But even if it were many, then the number of immoral protestant preachers should, thereby by itself, prove protestantism and evangelicalism false. They believe what YOU believe, so what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander, Ellen. If papal immorality means Catholicism is false, then protestant imnmorality (such as the massacre of most of the even-peaceful North Amercian indians by the mostly protestant U.S. Army, these horrific massacres, should prove protestantism false because of the sins of those who profess IT’s doctrines. After all, all you say, A good tree is known for it’s good fruit. Ted Haggard, a hustler of male prostitutes,was HEAD of the National Association of Evangelicals. THAT no more proves that evangelicalism must be false, because of that once-powerful Reverend’s sins, than papal or episcopal sins prove Catholicism false.
More on this. If sins on the part of a religion’s clergy and other ministers, proves that the doctrines are false, as you assert, then what about the fact that in the southern USA, from the 1900s to the mid 1960s, most southern (and many Northern) American evangelical pastors were members of or closely allied with,the murderous, racist KU KLUX KLAN, which hung thousands of African Americans for no reason other than to terrorize them, which burned down their houses, which bombed their churches during worship services. These people believed in YOUR non-catholic, anti-catholic, hard-core evangelical doctrines. Does THAT mean evangelicalism is thereby false? There are hundreds, thousands even, of photos of KKK rallies, all of them in full white-sheet regalia, inside protestant churches, surrounding the podium and altar, with the pastor standing amidst them smiling sweetly and approvingly. These were not “flukes,” this was commonplace.
Donald,
You said: “If papal immorality means Catholicism is false, then protestant imnmorality (such as the massacre of most of the even-peaceful North Amercian indians by the mostly protestant
U.S. Army, these horrific massacres, should prove protestantism false because of the sins of those who profess IT’s doctrines.”
You are holding Biblical Christianity responsible for what the U.S. Army did to North American native peoples? How does that compare to papal immorality??? The fact that Ted Haggard was guilty of immorality does not compare to the well-known and gross papal immorality that was common. I can assure you that if Ted Haggard’s immorality had been known, he would not have been elected to being a janitor in any evangelical church.
Dear Donald Ramsey
Shalom.
You wrote:
Ted Haggard, a hustler of male prostitutes,was HEAD of the National Association of Evangelicals.
My comment:
The most pathetic defense of my own errors, is to justify them by pointing fingers at the errors of others.
Donald,
You said: “More on this. If sins on the part of a religion’s clergy and other ministers, proves that the doctrines are false, as you assert, then what about the fact that in the southern USA, from the 1900s to the mid 1960s, most southern (and many Northern) American evangelical pastors were members of or closely allied with,the murderous, racist KU KLUX KLAN, which hung thousands of African Americans for no reason other than to terrorize them, which burned down their houses, which bombed their churches during worship services. These people believed in YOUR non-catholic, anti-catholic, hard-core evangelical doctrines. Does THAT mean evangelicalism is thereby false? There are hundreds, thousands even, of photos of KKK rallies, all of them in full white-sheet regalia, inside protestant churches, surrounding the podium and altar, with the pastor standing amidst them smiling sweetly and approvingly. These were not ‘flukes,’ this was commonplace.”
Someone who commits murder or conspires with others to commit murder is more than likely, NOT even a Christian, let alone qualified to lead a church. The Holy Spirit does NOT lead anyone into murder. Neither does He lead anyone into gross immorality such as was common among a number of the popes. The difference between Protestants and Catholics is that if I find that a pastor is immoral or leading the sheep astray, I can quit that church and find another where the leadership reflects the standards listed in the Bible. Where does a Catholic go—and will he/she even know what goes on in Rome where the head of the RCC resides?
p.s. The early churches were LOCAL collections of believers who were accountable to each other.
The RCC is some vast cult run by a priestly hierarchy that is responsible only to itself.
Ellen, only someone unfamiliar with the earliest Christian writings can honestly assert what you asserted above. The early church, and it’s apostle-appointed leaders, were all in full commmunion with each other, held synods in Jerusalem and Antioch and Rome and other cities to decide correct doctrine. A loose collection of “LOCAL” churches is 100% Myth. And immorality among the popes was NOT commonplace. That’s why notorious men like Alexander the Sixth are so well known. You are the ones pointing the fingers at the sins of some of my church’s leaders. If you can do that, so can I, but when I do it, you don’t like it. Hypocrites.
The RCC is not a cult at all and it’s hierarchy is not responsible only to itself. They must publicly profess the 2,000 year old faith or they will be called on the carpet. Many of them have been defrocked and excommunicated for not doing so. The idea of being able to just “run to another church” if you don’t like the local pastor, is a post-16th century idea which would have horrified all the early Christians. They knew that there was ONE Body of Christ on earth, and it was never some “haphazard” aggregate of Local churches accountable only to their local pastor. That is historical falsehood.
Defending Cult won’t give you everlasting life, won’t take you any where do you think it is written in the bible to exhumed the remains and venerate it this actually pagan religion claiming to be the only true church jesus founded this is false
Donald,
You said:”…only someone unfamiliar with the earliest Christian writings can honestly assert what you asserted above. The early church, and it’s apostle-appointed leaders, were all in full commmunion with each other, held synods in Jerusalem and Antioch and Rome and other cities to decide correct doctrine. A loose collection of “LOCAL” churches is 100% Myth.”
Then why did the Lord Jesus treat the seven churches (of Asia Minor) of the Book of Revelation as separate entities? They were apparently operating all on their own and they were being held responsible for conditions in each individual church.
You said: “And immorality among the popes was NOT commonplace. That’s why notorious men like Alexander the Sixth are so well known.”
No matter how much the RCC tries to launder history, there were those who recorded the excesses of the Roman hierarchy and those writings stand as witness.
You said: “You are the ones pointing the fingers at the sins of some of my church’s leaders. If you can do that, so can I, but when I do it, you don’t like it. Hypocrites.”
I really don’t care what “Protestants” you criticize. It is doubtful that those who you criticize as hobnobbing with the KKK were even Christians so what have they to do with me?
You said: “The RCC is not a cult at all and it’s hierarchy is not responsible only to itself…The idea of being able to just “run to another church” if you don’t like the local pastor, is a post-16th century idea which would have horrified all the early Christians.”
Nonsense, when a church does not uphold the “faith once delivered to the saints” it must be discarded—just as Jesus threatened to do with churches which He found in serious error and sin. You are sadly mistaken if you think that the RCC hierarchy is responsible to anyone other than itself. Just try insisting that the priests who engaged in covering up grievous sin in the church (pedophilia and homosexuality) be dismissed. Let’s see how far you get. 🙂
You said: “They knew that there was ONE Body of Christ on earth, and it was never some “haphazard” aggregate of Local churches accountable only to their local pastor. That is historical falsehood.”
And that is RCC nonsense that they have been spouting for ages. The true Church—the Bride of Christ, has always been comprised of ALL who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit no matter where they are on earth. Just imagine a castaway on a deserted island. He has never heard of the RCC or even the name of Jesus as anything other than a curse. But one day, a Bible washes up on shore and it is written in his language. He begins to read and discovers the Lord Jesus through his reading. He immediately pledges his life to Christ. Are you really going to say that he does not belong to Christ’s Body on the earth?
You said: “…aggregate of Local churches accountable only to their local pastor.”
No Christian is “accountable only to their local pastor”! We are accountable to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is to Him that we owe our abject surrender—not some self-serving band of men who call themselves “priests”. The priesthood belongs to Israel—which one of the Apostles called himself a priest? Every believer is part of the “priesthood of ALL believers” in a metaphorical sense, that is true. But for the RCC to arrogate that authority to the Roman hierarchy is a grievous error.
You said “Nonsense, when a church does not uphold the “faith once delivered to the saints” it must be discarded”…that is nonsense. You cannot discard the Church based on your personal opinion, or your biased thoughts, or your lack of insight into a deep truth. You end up with the Protestant miasma we areinfected with today…everyone feels free to start a church…with no authority whatsoever. Perhaps, sometimes, you need someone to explain something to you that you don’t understand. The Church has never varied or deviated from the the Truth of Christ.
You said “every believer is part of the “priesthood of all believers” in a metaphorical sense. There is no “metaphorical priesthood” and you are deluding yourself. There is an ACTUAL priesthood initiated by Christ Himself through those He chose out of the world, whose line remains unbroken to this day. God has always desired a dedicated priestly line. Christ initiated a new priestly line in His twelve…their successors are still priests today. You ask which of the Apostles called himself a priest…well, you need to read some history, for they became the first bishops of the church…Peter, for example, being the first Bishop of Rome, the chair now held by Francis in direct succession. To say they were not priests is ignorance of history on your part. You should read the early Church Fathers from the late first and early second century, people taught directly by the Apostles, and see what they have to say. Clear up your ignorance with fact.
roman catholics are fools they mostly worship mary but not jesus . jesus is the way to salvation not these relics or mary will give you salvation.
i am firm in my faith Jesus is the only way to salvation and no one else will give you salvation
“i am firm in my faith Jesus is the only way to salvation and no one else will give you salvation”….yes, that is what all Catholics believe also. There is no salvation other than what Christ offers. If you think Catholics believe otherwise, you have been mislead by someone.
“roman catholics are fools they mostly worship mary but not jesus “…Catholics do not worship Mary at all. She is a creature, just like we are. BUT, Read Luke’s Gospel…Mary is a very special creature…she is “Full of Grace” which means she is without sin. And it states all generations will call her blessed, which we certainly do, she is blessed, which is why we call her the Blessed Virgin Mary…according to the Bible. We pray for Mary to pray for us, not praying to her as we do to Christ. We pray for intercession, asking her to pray to her own Son on our behalf. It is as if I were to ask you to pray for my mother because she is sick…no problem right? We ask Mary to pray because they holy dead live in the presence of God, as noted in Revelation, and she is the Mother of the Lord. The “Hail Mary” prayer…the first half is all directly from the Bible (Luke), and the second have is merely asking her to pray for us, not a prayer to her as a divine being. You should attend some Catholic Masses, your confusion about who we worship, and what worship really is, would be cleared up, and the lies you have been told would dissolve.
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Thank you for exposing the largest pedophile, homosexual, death cult mafia on the planet. The Lord God has exposed the truth about this satanic religion, and those who reject this truth have obviously been handed over by God to believe the lies. I praise the Lord Jesus Christ He saved me out of this hellish religion that is sending billions to hell. Lord bless
if that were true ask any ex satanist why they steal catholic host …they know for one that the catholic church is the only one true church…they believe in his presence in the holy Eucharist
This is utter nonsense . There are no sources we can check to back up this ridiculous claim .