The scriptures tell me that there was at least one Messianic Jew, who lead a whole synagogue-congregation of believers. And that this synagogue leader was persecuted and beaten. Just like Jesus has explained, all true believers in Him will be.
We see a Messianic congreation in the book of Acts 18. For the first 200 years of Christanity, it was Messianic Judaism they believed in. They gathered in synagogues, till the day they were thrown out. Just as Jesus had explained would happen.
John 9:22
His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue.
John 16:2
They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.
In 320 A.D, the Pope of Rome came and replaced the truth, with his blasphemy and not-Biblical dogmas. Synagogues, wherever there were believing Jews to be found inside the Roman Empire, were converted into Roman Catholic shrines. Jews, both belivers and non-belivers were persecuted by the Roman Emperor and his popes, if they did not live in submission.
John 18:20
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
I believe in Messianic judaism. I identify my self with this movement. There have always existed a remnant of failtful Jews, and gentiles who have been grafted into the Jewish faith, believing every word of the Jewish Bible. This Messianic movement has returned back to their home. Being badly persecuted, they floruish inside the state of Israel.
Since, I am a gentile, I am not called back home to Israel. But I am called to defend her among the heaten. And to lift up the name of Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah, my Lord and God.
Written by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
Amen!
I have not been grafted into Jewish flesh. My flesh was crucified with Christ. I have not been grafted into Old Covenant faith. I have been baptized into Christ.
I have not been born of the Jerusalem from below. I have been born from New Jerusalem from above.
Why would I turn to those beggarly elements? I won’t.
God save Christians from Judaizing and call them to think of the things above not below… returning to Jesus whose Kingdom is not from the Israel that can be seen but the Kingdom of Heaven above: the true Israel of God.
Dear laura
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Why would I turn to those beggarly elements? I won’t.
My comment:
What you say between the lines, is that it was correct to flog this Messianic leader in Acts 18. He was according to you, “a judaizer”.
Dear Laura,
If you are a New Covenant believer, you might want to look it up and see who it is with and what it will do.
If you are grafted in, you might want to see who you are grafted into.
And, the beggarly elements you speak of are not what you think.
It is time to open your Bible and ask for truth, not traditions of men.
Scriptures do say that the gentiles are a “grafted branch” on the tree of Israel. But the tree of Israel is a family tree. Only through Christ did Isreal become adopted sons of God. Romans 9:4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
But the gentiles became adopted sons also through Christ, without any of the other trappings. Because all power is given to Christ and He adopts whomever He wants to adopt.
Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will–
So your both right, sort of. Laura doesn’t have to do everything the Jews do and the Jews don’t have to stop doing everything Laura doesn’t do.
But I do believe that it’s what the Jews did that the gentiles are not required to do, and everything the Pope has people d,o is here nor there, absolute BS. “Beggarly” since before Christ the Jews were considered to be slaves in what they do, slaves of God. The Pope in imitating Jews, with priests and rituals of his own, tries to make the Sons of God into the slaves of the Pope.
Dear Ed.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Scriptures do say that the gentiles are a “grafted branch” on the tree of Israel. But the tree of Israel is a family tree. Only through Christ did Isreal become adopted sons of God.
My comment:
This is a strange and quite funny form of Replacement Theology, that has absolutely nothing to do with Biblical truth.
Ed: Have you read through the Old Testament?
If so: Can you please quote some 5-6 scriptures from the Hebrew Bible, where the Jews are called God’s chosen people?
I have read the old testament. I didnt say Chosen people, I said “adopted into Sonship” through Christ. Straight from scripture, “adopted into Sonship” . Galations first clued me into this. Gal 4:5 “to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.” Romans 8:14 “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.”
Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
But I’ll see if I can find anything in the old testament. Nope, Not much there, peculiarly silent on calling anyone “adopted into sonship”, but it seems to be related to the promise to Abraham about being heirs.
Dear Ed.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You find this truth in the New testament. THEIRS is the adoption. Since the convenants also are theirs, you can not replace, steal, or upsurp this. But you can try to twist the truth. Or you can eventually understand that you are a wild plant, that can be grafted into this faith by the Messiah.
Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.
(end of New Testament)
Paul can write this, becasue He know the promises and the Law. He is not a lawless being, like many claimed to be Christians.
Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
(end of scriptures).
I do not know what it will take for you to understand this. Jesus said that some people can simply not understand what they read.
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Rom.9:5-8
even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.'” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.'” Rom. 9:24,25
Paul could say these things because he knew the scriptures.
Sonship comes through adoption. Adoption is an act of grace and mercy from God. He chooses to adopt based on
The believing faith of the one he adopts. John wrote that
He came to his own (Israelites) but his own did not receive him. (Generally speaking) but as many of them that did,(some did obviously) to them he gave power to be the sons of God. Until they received him they were not sons and if not sons; not heirs according to the promise.
If the branch from the wild olive tree is grafted to the cultivated tree it becomes part of the culitvated tree called Israel. You yourself are a gentile Ivarjfeld, so why is that so disturbing to you?
Acts 15:18 – 20 SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.…
Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
You pushed me a bit and I think I’ve got what they are saying. Do not use the grace of God as an excuse to commit sins of the flesh, Use the grace of God so not to call others unclean who are not as cultivated as yourself. And don’t be a hypocrite by teaching people not to do things you yourself do.
Dear Ed.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Lets go back in time. Lets start before Jesus came in flesh:
1. Who were chosen to be God’s people? The Jews.
2. To whom do the adotion of sonship belong. To the Jews.
3. Whom has God of the Bible promised to love with an eternal love? The Jews.
4. Who raised the Messiah, who are his brethren? The Jews.
5. Who was punished, and exiled to all the nations? The Jews.
5. Who has returned to their promised land, more than six million of them? The Jews.
6. To which people will Jesus return, litterally landing in Jerusalem? The Jews.
Can I be a parttaker of all of this?
Absolutely. Through the blood of the Messiah. As long as I do not appear arrogant, and upsurp the promises given to the Jewish people, and start claiming these promises belong to the Church only. The gentile believers in Yeshua have enlarged Israel. We are parttakers in the commonwelth of Israel, and are called the new Israel of God.
Ed, why did you stop quoting Acts 15 at verse 20?
v21: For Moses has in every city from ancient generations those who preach him (Torah) since he is read in the synagogue every Sabbath.
There, gentile believers, coming to faith in Yeshua were expected by James to learn Moses/Torah in the synagogue on the Sabbath!
God has one unchanging standard of righteousness that we are called to pursue, whether Jew or Gentile.
Hi Ivar,
I don’t think we are called the “New Israel of God” but
“The Israel of God”.This Israel of God has always been.
It was restored or made new when Yeshua established a new covenant with those who received him. The Israel of God are the sons of God. Are Gentiles not adopted into the family? Are they only grafted into the tree and not sons as well
Dear Todd.
Shalom,and love in Jesus.
You are right. But the new Israel of God, has to embrace the New Covenant. It is a New Convenant with the people of Judah….!!!. The tribe and people of Judah is not the Church.
It is a Jewish tribe and a Jewish kingdom that pre-dates the Church by more than 1.000 years. A promise spoken by a Jewish prophet to the Jewish people.
Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
Galatians 6: 15-16
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts the new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.
(end of Scriptures).
The Jews always had to stand before their God with circumzised hearts. I can give you scriptures, if you have not read them.
If the Church claim the New Covenant was given to her, she is lying. She can only parttake.
Where does that leave Abraham since he was before the law, and he never really saw Israel as a Jewish state, he lived somewhere near Lot , who lived in Sodom.
Dear Ed.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Please read Matthew 1. And than explain to me the bloodline from Abraham to Jesus.
Right, Abraham was part of the family tree of Israel. Jesus is also part of the family tree of Isreal. The branch from the wild olive tree grafted to the culitivated olive tree is also part of the tree of Israel. Abraham was before the law so he can’t be saved by the law, Abraham is saved by the promise to be heirs with Christ. Abraham never had the law and didn’t live in the Jewish state of Isreal. So how can Abraham be saved if that is a requirement?
But if even the Jews are adopted sons then geneolgy doesn’t matter except to fulfill the promise of the Messiah Jesus coming from that geneolgy.
Ivar, may I encourage you that as a Torah-observant disciple of Y’shua (one who ‘has the testimony of Y’shua AND keep the commandments – Rev 12:17, etc), you are indeed part of Israel!! You have been grafted in (Rom 11:17) and made part of the ‘household of God.” (Eph 2:19) As such, you are one of those that YHVH has promised to ‘gather out of the nations’ and bring back home. I invite you to read about and pray for the First Ephraimite/Northern Israel National Congress, to be held in Israel in May of this year. Our purpose is to discuss and lay the groundwork for building communication and support amongst the scattered messianic believers in this world, permitting us to become a true family, ready for the return of our Big Brother, Messiah Y’shua. You can read about the Congress here: https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/2015/02/09/it-is-my-brothers-who-i-am-seeking-the-lost-sheep-of-the-house-of-israel-are-returning-home/
Blessings, brother!!! Stand firm, and rejoice that you are more than a conqueror!
Dear Sue in NC
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I have for the five years done a deep study in the Inquisition of Goa. I have released a book in Goa, “The Jewish maryrs of Old Goa”. I have concluded that the Roman Catholic inquisition in this place, was a war on Biblical Faith. Many of the Jewish maranos, or “New Christians” had indeed turned true belivers in Yeshua. Thay kept on telling their persecutors and butchers, that is was wrong to honor the Queen of Heaven. They kept on defending them selves up to the time of martyrdom, repeating that only God of Israel is the living God. We shall only worship Him. They refused to recant, and submit to the doctrines of Rome.
Nothing has changed. If you stand for the truth, you will be persecuted.
Yes, absolutely true. When we stand firm in the truth of scripture, including Torah, the enemy will do everything in his power (and that’s a LOT) to shut us up and get us out of the way. But if Messiah was willing to go through it for my sake, I am willing to go through it for His sake. Obviously you feel the same way.
I would love to learn more about the Goa believers, if you could direct me to some books to read.
See you in Israel!! 🙂
Hi Sue,
I was reading about The First Ephraimite/Northern Israel National Congress and have a few questions.
You said, “…ready for the return of our Big Brother, Messiah Y’shua.”
I’m a little confused as to why you referred to Jesus as our “Big Brother?” I have heard Mormons refer to Jesus in error as their “elder brother” – believing that Jesus is a literal brother who they preexisted with in spirit form as children of Elohim and “god the mother” in eternity past.
Who is Jesus to you? Is Jesus God? You said about yourself, “has the testimony of Y’shua AND keep the commandments.”
Do you think you have to help Jesus out and “work” with human effort to obtain salvation by keeping all 613 commandments? Was Jesus’ sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection enough to save you?
Regarding keeping the commandments, do you have a backyard or a garden where you live? Have you ceased from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) which we are currently in (September 2014 – September 2015). If not, you are guilty of breaking commandment 211.
Have you had chicken fettuccini alfredo? Oops, if you did you just broke commandment 188, “do not eat meat with milk” (Ex 32:26).
The Bible says if you break one commandment you have broken them all. “For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws” (James 2:10).
Paul makes it clear that salvation is available only through the sacrifice of Jesus alone. Period. Nothing more. That’s why a lot of these Hebrew Root movements have gotten way off track and some have crossed the line into cults. Not saying yours has, but just had a few questions.
Blessings!
Hi, Jason! Wow, that’s a lot of questions! Thank you for asking them. I believe I hear in them a genuine desire to minister to me, and I appreciate that very much.
Ivar, I hope you will forgive me for taking the space to reply to Jason here, but he seems to be a genuine and caring person, and deserving of an answer. Please forgive me if I am overstepping my bounds by making my response here. If you want to delete our conversation, please do so, and ask Jason to repost his questions at my blog, https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/
* * * * * *
Jason, I think I can best answer your questions in this way:
1. First I would like to invite you to read some of my articles at my blog, The Lambs Servant. I think they will answer a great many of your questions. https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/
2. You were puzzled by my reference to Y’shua as our “Big Brother” and wondered if I see Him as God. Yes, I believe that Y’shua is God in the Flesh. Please see my article, The Deity of Y’shua, at https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/the-deity-of-yshua/.
I referred to Y’shua as our “Big Brother” because His favorite title for Himself was “The Son of Man,” to emphasize that He is the ‘Firstborn’ of God – a legal term indicating that He is the only One entitled to represent the Father’s human family. As Firstborn, He is the representative of those of us who serve the Father. Y’shua Himself said, ““Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (Matt 12:47-50) That said, thank you for reminding me of the connotations certain words can bring to folks’ minds – I need to be more cognizant of that and perhaps more selective in my phraseology.
2. You asked: “Do you think you have to help Jesus out and ‘work’ with human effort to obtain salvation by keeping all 613 commandments? Was Jesus’ sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection enough to save you?”
No, Jason; I hope you will be relieved to learn that I do not believe that anything I do can earn me a place in the Kingdom. I am by nature unfit for that honor. It is only by YHVH’s Grace that He even consents to accept my repentance, and it is only by His incredible Love and Mercy that He has given His own Son to pay the price of my rebellion.
The only possible response I can make is to gladly and gratefully do my best to live in accordance with His desires and commands! I try to express this concept in several of my articles. You might take a look at my article, What Does It Mean to be ‘Righteous’?, which you can access at https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/2014/12/10/what-does-it-mean-to-be-righteous/
3. You asked: “Regarding keeping the commandments, do you have a backyard or a garden where you live? Have you ceased from tilling the land in the Sabbatical year (Ex. 23:11) which we are currently in (September 2014 – September 2015). If not, you are guilty of breaking commandment 211.”
No, I don’t have a garden. However, the sh’mitah commands do not apply to family truck gardens. They have to do with the crops that are grown for SALE and TRADE, not for personal use. (This was still a challenge from YHVH to trust Him, because many village and city people did not have truck gardens. They had to rely on ‘wild grown’ food brought in from the unharvested fields.) The sh’mitah laws also apply only to the Land of Israel, which is the only land Holy to YHVH. The purpose of the sh’mitah is to recognize Israel as the ‘set apart’ property of YHVH, the land in which His government is headquartered.
4. You asked: “Have you had chicken fettuccini alfredo? Oops, if you did you just broke commandment 188, ‘do not eat meat with milk’ (Ex 32:26).”
I am not sure how Ex 32:26 applies to your question. It says, “Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD’S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.”
Did you perhaps mean Ex 23:19 – “The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk.”
If it is the Exodus passage to which you are referring, the answer is simple. As you seem to be aware, a central RABBINIC tradition is that meat and dairy cannot be prepared using the same utensils, and that they cannot be eaten at the same meal. In fact, according to this regulation, if you eat a cheese pizza, you must wait a prescribed amount of time before eating a steak, or you risk mixing meat and dairy in your stomach! This rabbinic regulation is based on Ex 23:19b: Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk. (Just to be nit-picky , you can see that even this verse doesn’t forbid eating the kid’s meat with milk.)
Notice that this verse is actually part of the instruction about the Firstfruits offering brought to YHVH. The Hebrews of this verse’s time period were notorious for mixing pagan practices with their worship of YHVH. The true intent of this passage may have been to warn the Israelites against including a pagan ritual as part of their Firstfruits worship to YHVH. Another possibility is that it may have been a symbolic way of expressing the idea of not taking what was meant to be life-giving and a blessing, and using it for harm instead.
In either case, this passage had nothing to do with what Israelites were permitted to eat in their daily diet. In fact, in Gen 18:8, we are told that righteous Abraham “… took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them [the angels of YHVH!]; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.” Had this been offensive to YHVH, the angels would certainly have instructed Abraham that they could not eat these things simultaneously. Abraham was certainly unaware of such a Torah regulation, and we are told in Gen 26:5 that Abraham did indeed KNOW Torah: “Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (torah).”
5. And your last question and comment: “The Bible says if you break one commandment you have broken them all. ‘For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws’ (James 2:10). Paul makes it clear that salvation is available only through the sacrifice of Jesus alone. Period. Nothing more. That’s why a lot of these Hebrew Root movements have gotten way off track and some have crossed the line into cults. Not saying yours has, but just had a few questions.”
My response: James has a LOT to say about obedience to Torah, and all of it is supportive of such obedience. Remember that when Y’shua and James referred to ‘The Word,’ they were speaking of what we call the Old Testament – the NT had not yet been written when Y’shua taught, nor canonized when James wrote.
“But be ye DOERS of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
Reminds me of Y’shua’s teaching: “My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and DO it.” (Luke 8:21) and “Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and KEEP it.”( Luke 11:28.)
As you mentioned, James said, “But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
Please note that in this passage, James warns us that if we are ‘respecter of persons’ (i.e., ascribing value based on wealth), then we ‘commit SIN.’ We forget that without Torah, sin does not exist. It is Torah that identifies and defines sin. As John wrote, “…sin is the transgression of the Law.” (1John 3:4) As Paul said, “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom 7:7)
Paul talks a LOT about our need to be obedient to Torah throughout the Book of Romans. One of Paul’s trains of thought that I basically ignored for many years was: “For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (Rom 7:14) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law [Torah] of God, neither indeed can be.” (Rom 8:6-7)
I agree 100% with Paul that salvation is by faith and that the penalty for our sin has been borne by God Himself in the Person of His Son. I have done nothing, nor can I ever do anything to deserve such Grace. However, I CAN DO SOMETHING TO SHOW MY GRATITUDE. I can be obedient to my Father’s commands, just as my Savior was and is. Y’shua taught us:
John 12:50 “And I know that his commandment [ἐντολή (entolē)] is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.” (The Greek word used here is the word that speaks of the mitzvot, not the Ten Commandments.)
Psa 40:7 “Then said I [Messiah], Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy Torah is within my heart.”
Matthew 19:17 – “… But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
There is SO much more that could be said, but I hope you will take a look at some of my articles. I finish here with prophecy concerning Messiah:
“Behold my Servant [Messiah] whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his Torah…. YHWH is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; HE WILL MAGNIFY THE TORAH AND MAKE IT HONORABLE.” Isa 42:1
Sue,
As you continue to push and emphasize your obedience to the Law, you have put yourself under God’s judgement.
What you promote is legalism and a false gospel.
The Bible says that “when we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags.” Sadly, you have used this blog to promote your website’s “rags” at least 5 times.
——————–
“In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judiazers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.”
“The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”
“A Judiazer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. The doctrine of the Judiazers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.
“At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.
“Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”
“The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.”
(From Got Questions/Judaizers)
Dear Ivar,
There is a lot to more to uncover here regarding Sue’s posts than just the error of the Hebrew Roots movement.
Sue is promoting an unbiblical movement called the “Ephraimite Movement” where she and her “group” believes that Christians are the lost tribes of Israel and they seek to usurp the true Israelites by returning to Israel .
This is a form of replacement theology called “Two House Doctrine.”
Their ultimate goal is to return in mass to Israel and restore the nation unto themselves. They have even designed their own flag!
These people obviously no nothing about Bible prophecy and what is going to happen in the last days (which we are in).
They must not involve themselves in what is happening politically in Israel right now or have a clue what is about to go down militarily based on Bible prophecy.
It’s as though they are a group of clueless narcissists who have spiritually gone off the deep end only thinking of themselves in a grandiose spiritually deluded way and are blind to the reality at hand.
Also, Hebrew Roots Movement is one of the latest trends in Christian apostasy. A lot of Rick Warren and Joel Osteen types are capitalizing on end-time deception and attempting to start up “churches” like wildfire for $$$.
I don’t know about you, but a Gentile man dressed up as a Rabbi and butchering the pronunciation of Hebrew Words and pretending to be a from the tribe of Levi – giving the Aaronic Blessing – is insulting.
I have no problem with a true Messianic Jew from the Tribe of Levi giving the blessing, in fact I love to hear this – but some gentile imposter surely brings up RED FLAGS!
Her group is already begging for money world-wide so that they can take over their “rightful place” in Jerusalem.
Sounds sort of like what the Pope is trying to do, doesn’t it?
dear Jonah
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
There is a lot to more to uncover here regarding Sue’s posts than just the error of the Hebrew Roots movement.
My reply:
I am not the author of her comments, and will have to await her futher reply to your post. If she desire to continue this debate, I will urge you to explain your case based on scriptures. I have made my case, and it is based on merits. The Word of God in the hightest authority, alone.
Hi Sue,
I had another comment.
You said, “you are indeed part of Israel!! You have been grafted in (Rom 11:17) and made part of the ‘household of God.” (Eph 2:19) As such, you are one of those that YHVH has promised to ‘gather out of the nations’ and bring back home.”
You are mixing up two different groups and misinterpreting Scripture.
There is a huge difference between Messianic Jews and the Torah Observant movement or sometimes referred to as “Messianic Christians.” From your post, it appears that you are part of the latter.
I take it you were not born Jewish since you said you were “Torah Observant” so you are not a Messianic Jew (which is what this article is referring to). Messianic Judaism are committed Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah of Israel.
The Torah Observant movement, on the other hand, is made up of gentiles (and gentile men who call themselves Rabbis).
This group is not grafted into Judaism of the Mosaic Covenant, nor is this group Jewish or a part of Israel. You have blended things together on high-speed in error.
The Scripture you quoted about being “gather out of the nations” has been quoted in error. The Scripture says, “And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country” (Ex. 34:13).
This Scripture references the restoration of Jews only, not gentiles. (The Gentiles will have their own restoration in a different way that I won’t get into here.) This scripture has already been partially fulfilled as we see the restoration of Israel and the return of Jewish people form all over the world. It’s also been fulfilled partially in God’s protection of His people throughout history. But we will see a complete fulfillment towards the end of the tribulation when Jews will be returned to their land and embrace the true Messiah of Israel and be saved.
When you speak of keeping the law you insinuate that you are walking a “higher path” than other true believers who do not keep the law. According to the website hebrews4christians, “nowhere is the Bible do we find Gentiles instructed to follow Levitical law or Jewish customs. In fact the opposite is taught in Romans 7:6, “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Christ, in keeping perfectly every ordinance of the Mosaic Law, completely fulfilled it. Just as making the final payment on a home fulfills that contract and ends one’s obligation to it, so also Christ has made the final payment and has fulfilled the law, bringing it to an end for us all.
“Christians are in no way obligated to follow the laws of rabbinical Judaism, especially in attempt to acquire spiritual merit that defines personal sanctity or holiness. Our righteousness and sanctification are imputed – by faith – through God in the Messiah Yeshua “whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. (1 Cor 1:30)
“The true Temple of God is his body offered up upon the cross at Moriah. Indeed, in every aspect of the written law’s requirement we see the surpassing glory of God in Yeshua.”
Hi, Jonah – first I want to apologize for referring to you as “Jason” in the last post.
Secondly, I hesitate to use Ivar’s blog as the place for our discussion, which I would very much like to continue. Would you do me the favor of posting your questions at my blog? (You can use the ‘Intro’ page if you like.) My blog is called “The Lamb’s Servant” and the URL is: https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/
Thank you so much!
Hi Sue,
I see one reply to me and none to “Jason”?
Since you posted comments about your “group” on this site, I am debating with you on this site only and have no desire to go to the link you posted.
You can check with Ivar and see if he objects to you answering my questions on this blog. If he doesn’t, I invite you to do so unless you are unable to support your beliefs and behavior with Scripture.
As I get older, I can quote the Scripture, “for zeal for your house consumes me, and the insults of those who insult you fall on me” (Psalm 69:9).
Hi, Jonah – First allow me to apologize for calling you ‘Jason’ in my post above.
Second, I very much desire to continue our discussion, but I hesitate to use Ivar’s blog. I feel like I am intruding and sidetracking his topic. May I ask you to re-post your last message at my blog, The Lamb’s Servant? You could use the ‘Intro’ page. The URL is: https://lambsservant.wordpress.com/
Thank you so much!
Hi Jonah – I posted a very long reply to your comments, but I don’t see it here. Perhaps Ivar has not yet approved my message? But since you would like to continue the discussion here, let’s shout out to Ivar and make sure it’s okay with him.
Ivar, do we have your permission to continue our discussion on your blog?
Thanks!
Dear Sue in NC
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Long messages automatically ends up in my spam filter. Please make short comments, but be free to write plenty of messages.
I agree with Jonah, that there is a difference between the gospel of grace, and the movement that demand Torah observance. I do celebrate the Sabbath, but I am not a Sabbath observant Christian. I can take a day of rest and make it Holy, any day. But I need to rest, and I need to focus on the grace given by God of the Hebrews.
The problem of Torah observance is that all the Laws must be kept. It is the Old Covenant, that God Him self had to change for a better one.
If I point my fingers towards others, I become a hypocrite. Since I am not able to follow all the laws. If I try, I will place my self back under a curse. Because not a single human being can become righteous, by observing the Law.
We are in need ot the blood of the Lamb of God, and his abundant mercy and grace. Amen.
Thank you very much, Ivar, for allowing us to carry on our discussion at your blog. It is very kind of you.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that Torah observance can never earn us a place in the Kingdom; and we certainly can’t point fingers at one another, since every one of us is guilty of sin.
Praise God that salvation has ALWAYS been through faith – that’s why David reminded us that “The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.” (Ps 51:17) That’s why Abraham’s faithfulness was acknowledged as righteousness.
We can never keep the law perfectly, which is why God built into Torah a sacrificial system by which we could demonstrate our contrite hearts. It is because of that sacrificial system that Y’shua’s death and resurrection are effective in our behalf.
We should remember that it is Torah which identifies and defines sin. Without Torah, there is no sin. (“…sin is the transgression of Torah.” 1John 3:4) If Torah has indeed been ‘done away with,’ then Y’shua’s incredible sacrifice is useless to us. The system of sacrificial atonement (as graciously ordained in Torah) would be no longer in existence and therefore ineffective, not least because sin itself would not exist.
But sin does still exist, and we ARE “in need of the blood of the Lamb of God, and his abundant mercy and Grace. AMEN!!” I praise God that His Truth is eternal, that what pleased Him yesterday will please Him today and tomorrow, and that my precious Savior’s sacrifice and His work as my High Priest will remain eternally effective and will be forever acceptable in my behalf and yours! I am so glad that we share that joy and gratitude!!
Blessings in Y’shua,
Sue
Dear Sue in NC
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
But sin does still exist, and we ARE “in need of the blood of the Lamb of God, and his abundant mercy and Grace. AMEN!!
My reply:
The debate about the relationship between the law and grace, is a 2.000 year old debate. It is a never ending story. I have learned that I am a lawbreaker, a sinner. And I plead to the judge, that He must look towards Jesus before I get what I deserve. My advocate has all powers in Heaven and on Earth. By grace I am found innocent and accuitted every day, as long as I do not take His grace for granted.
A good reply, Ivar – thank you and blessings, Brother
Ah, I just found my original reply – it follows your original comments.
Dear Jonah
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
“Christians are in no way obligated to follow the laws of rabbinical Judaism, especially in attempt to acquire spiritual merit that defines personal sanctity or holiness.
My reply:
I agree. We often critizise the Roman Catholic Church, for calling their priests “father”. But what about claimed to be Messianic Jews, who call their leaders for “rabbi”? Can we take one part of the words of Yeshua and delete it? And still claim to be Torah-observant, and a follower of Yehsua?
My answer is no. I am not going to call any religious Jew for “rabbi”. I have only one. Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah.
Sue,
I am so glad Ivar deleted your two billion word manifesto that you copied and pasted onto this site. The migraine I had yesterday would have been way worse had I been exposed to that mumbo-jumbo.
And even after all those words, you still have not answered one single question I posed to you such as, “Is Jesus God?” “Were you born Jewish? “Why do you think that you have become Israel just because you are able to purchase airline tickets and parade around in prayer shawls as though you are the chosen people?
I’m personally not fooled by the intentional trickery of your writing style. In your post you claim to follow the commandments. In the next sentence you say it’s all about grace. Then in the next sentence you claim it’s all about keeping the Torah.
Your reasoning is along the same lines as the Roman Catholic “Answer Man”. Someone will ask the Answer Man, “the Bible tells us to call no man “Father” (Matt. 32:9).
The Answer Man says, “”One must first understand the use of the word “father” in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word “father.”
I write this example to show you how your defense of the Hebrew Roots movement sounds. You spin questions like a dreidel at Hanukkah. Those without discernment could be easily tricked because what you say verses what you actually do are two different things.
The following is from “fortheloveofhistruth” website which sums it all up:
“The Torah and Old Covenant made with Israel did not lead the Jewish people into all truth, because it was weak and unable to save their souls – all it was able to do, was push their sins forward year after year. But when Jesus came, he brought to man what the Old Covenant could never bring. He wrote the Law upon our hearts (not the ordinances of the OT,) but the moral laws of God. Those things that the Jews could never do, because sin lived within them he gave us power to do.
“Hebrew Roots movement is seeking to cast doubt on the faith once delivered to the church by challenging the very Scriptures we have been given by the Lord. They claim Christians can’t fully understand the Scripture until we understand the Torah. But the opposite is true. You will not understand the OT (or the Torah) until you have true revelation of the NT. And if you have true revelation of the NT, you will not allow yourself to fall back under the weak system of the Old Covenant, because you will know the liberty you have found in Christ fulfills all.
“The Old Testament (or Torah) is not the greater revelation, nor does the OT shine light on the NT, the NT opens and reveals the OT and shows what the symbols and shadows really meant. The DEEPER things of God are found in the NT, not the OT, because Christ is revealed in all of his glory in the NT. We are rooted, all of us, in CHRIST and while the OT is filled with the glory of the Lord, the NT opens up and reveals His glory in splendor and shows us that intimacy with Christ comes through his sacrifice which surpasses all that went before. Emphasis on the Torah over the NT is emphasizing that which could not save. The Holy Spirit given to all those who are in Christ Jesus, gives us understanding and leads us into all truth, not the Torah.
“Jesus instituted a New and Better Covenant with those who believed on him. To give greater credence to the Torah attempts to alter that Blood-bought covenant by adding back to it the lesser system of the Old Covenant, which was totally fulfilled in Christ.”
————————
I’m done with the debate.
dear Jonah
Shalom and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I’m done with the debate.
My reply:
But you have not debated with anybody. Just explained why you seems to hate the Hebrew Rooths movement.
From my persecptive, the law and grace live in close relationship. Jesus the Messiah is the Master of them both. And there is a balancing line, from where we fall into two different kind of ditches. We can take grace for granted. Many do not mind, and are not even aware that they mock the 10 commandments. That is called “cheep grace”, a deception that leads to judgment.
Many Christians seems to treat the instructions of God as thin air. The air they jump up and down in, claiming they do praise and worship.
Others turn them selv back under the law, in the sense trying to gain righteousness by obeserving and doing the law. Both are wrong. The law convince us all that we are sinners. Post, present and future. As long as we are in our mortal flesh. ALL of us.
Grace, and only grace is sufficient for salvation. It has always been like this. From Abraham, through King David to the New Testament believers in God of the Hebrews.
BUT, there is a but. As long as we respect the law and fear God enough to avoid breaking the law purpusly. Only the convenant of blood has changed for a better one. Jesus has also fulfilled the demands on us, written in the moral code and codex. In the sense that we, the lawbreakers are forgiven by His death and ressurection. But the Law is still valid, and good for instructions of all who are called into holiness by His sanctification. That is why we can say that idol worship is a grave sin, likewise homosexuality (Sodomi). We have to repent. This is written in the Law, but seems not to have entered the heart of many claimed to be believers.
Jonah. There is nothing wrong in celebrating the Sabbath, and joining Jews when having a party on Jewish festivals. But you do not have to. By not participating, you do not loose your salvation. Neither do believers in Yeshua loose their salvation by celebrating the Sabbath and Jewish festivals. As long as they do not include such observance and celebrations as a demand for salvation. If so, they will be Judaizing the Church, and have become a cult.
And not to forget. Only if we respect the Law, we will respect and support the state of Israel. If we do not believe in Moses and the prophets, we will not be convinced even if a man is raised from the dead. Just read Luke 16:31.
Dear Ivar,
You said: “Many Christians seems to treat the instructions of God as thin air. The air they jump up and down in, claiming they do praise and worship. Others turn them selves back under the law, in the sense trying to gain righteousness by observing and doing the law. Both are wrong.”
I agree 100 percent and you are absolutely correct. I attempted to make this point but maybe it didn’t come across.
I reacted to the hypocrisy in her posts. For example she said, “Paul talks a LOT about our need to be obedient to Torah throughout the Book of Romans.” Then in the next sentence says, ” I agree 100% with Paul that salvation is by faith and that the penalty for our sin has been borne by God Himself in the Person of His Son.”
Which is it? What does she believe? She says one thing and the next sentence she negates it. Then she adds that she feels that she is happy that since she keeps the Law she, ” CAN DO SOMETHING TO SHOW MY GRATITUDE.”
To add anything to the work that Christ did for our salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law.
“I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).
We don’t show Yeshua our gratitude toward His exceedingly, glorious sacrifice for our sins by going back to the Law and following dietary guidelines or whatever else she does.
Our sacrifice is a broken and contrite heart. It is loving God with all our hearts, soul, and might and loving our neighbor as ourselves and participating in a personal, intimate love relationship with Jesus. Since we have a personal relationship, we know His laws and what he expects for us and we follow it not in legalism but in love.
It is not about going to Israel and pretending we are “true Jews” and dancing to Israeli music or making sure we avoid bacon at the brunch at the five star Hotel. She has it all backwards. She is not able to keep the law, even if she only sins in her thoughts, as the Bible says in Matthew that anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. “But I say, if you are even angry in your thoughts with someone, you are subject to judgment!” She and anyone else can never keep the law, yet she boasts about the fine job she was doing, in fact, it is what most defines her walk with the Lord. The first thing she said was that she was “Torah Observant”.
Turth is she most likely lives a life of luxury, probably upper middle class, has a home, doesn’t have to support herself, etc. and seems out of touch with what Yeshua finds pleasing in His children.
What would she say about a homeless person living on the street who loves the Lord but due to circumstance is starving and can eat only a hand-out he is given. He eats whatever he can get because he is hungry and doesn’t have the privilege like she does to go to the Jewish butcher and get a Kosher cut of prime rib or a salmon steak.
Will Yeshua judge this man because he ate a bologna sandwich with pork in it and failed at the Law, yet will he turn around and bless her and be pleased with her behavior, as she stated, because she doesn’t eat pork and has kept the dietary law? She seems to think so.
She also said that you, “are indeed part of Israel!! You have been grafted in (Rom 11:17) and made part of the ‘household of God.” (Eph 2:19) As such, you are one of those that YHVH has promised to ‘gather out of the nations’ and bring back home.”
I already explained why she has not rightly divided the Word here as this is totally unscriptural and shows that she has a lot of studying to do.
The teachings of her group diminishes the finished work of Christ on the Cross making Him a liar.
Hebrew Roots is a heretical cult.
Dear Jonah.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I reacted to the hypocrisy in her posts. For example she said, “Paul talks a LOT about our need to be obedient to Torah throughout the Book of Romans.” Then in the next sentence says, ” I agree 100% with Paul that salvation is by faith and that the penalty for our sin has been borne by God Himself in the Person of His Son.”
My reply:
I do not have to agree with all Sue from NC writes. That is why it is possible to have a debate.
I surely have serious disagreements with the Hebrew roots movements. And believe me. They have serious disagreements among them selves. Like: What parts of the law is less important?
My possition is slightly different. I will claim that the relationship betwen Law and grace is a fine balancing line. Yes, I am saved, and I am saved by grace alone. Still I can not take my salvation for granted, by treating the law with contempt. The law will continue to convince me about my shortcommings and my mistakes, things that needs to be changed by a process of sanctification. (Holiness). The Holy Spirit will keep on remining me. And Jesus will be permitted to change me.
Ivar, everything you teach is pure bible truth. If the churches would just read romans eight, nine, ten and eliven where it says we owe the Jews for the Messiah, diciples, scripture and that Salvation came thru the Jews and we owe them a debt, to suport them, love them and help and pray for them as Romans tells us we are grafted into Israel..but the replacement chruches say that G-d forgot the Jews and that we are the new Israel and the church. But reading this we should see that G-d blinded the Jews to who HE was so that us heathen would have the power to become sons of G-d, and even from the beginning HE tells us in Genesis 12:3 that those who do not love , pray and help the Jews and like Romans says to take the gospel to the JEWS FIRST..are acursed , even those who do not care one way or the other are acursed. we know G-d does not lie and that HE means what HE says and that there is NO Shadow of turning..HE means what HE SAYS and HIS Word is forever. The churches need to read all the bible instead of taking what they like and throwing out the ones they don’t want to believe or to throw out the OLD T and only go by the New T..and they need to know the old T reveals the new and the new is concealed in the old T…False prophets started even back then and are blown all over in our age. the last days are here. They need to realize that HE is coming with Redemption for the Jews as it is written and when HE stands on the Mt of Olive, brings up the dead that the Jews will mourn like for a first son and HE says HE will be their G-d, take away their sin and give them a new pure heart and concluded with and ALL Israel will be saved. How these churches think that they replaced Israel is saying G-d is a liar. and where is the fact that we hear from thousands of churches that we are to go into all the world and preach the gospel , but when do they read the whole scripture that says TO THE JEW FRIST…that is why too that they think they replaaced Israel..doesn’t matter what they think but I would say they need to know that G-d said when they add too or take away from HIS Word that they are cursed. they must think that G-d blinded the Jews and now will throw them into hell..we know that there will be no peace till HE comes but a Everlasting Covenant is just that EVERLASTING Covenant..and this is going to go on till HE comes and maybe the church needs to reread the scripture and help the Jews get home if they want HIM to come..people can sit around and listen to false teaching but G-d says they will have NO excuse and if they read the world themselves they could pickout the false teachers..I read that a poll was over 70 call themselves Christians , but they are not..if they were they would learn the fear of the L-rd which is the beginning of Wisdom..the demons fear and trimble but the most part of the church dont seem to fear enought to Change their believe to G-d’s word. It is not like G-d did not tell us in the first part of Rev what churches would teach and the last one we see now is the Apostasy of Lodicean church which is great apostasy who are not either hot or cold but are lukewarm which HE says he will sprew them out of HIS Mouth..I pray they wake up and start being G-d rather than man as G-d said that too. G-d loves u s and wishes no one would be lost but they have a choice , it is either what G-d says or men and they will get double punishment.. I read what the pope says and calling himself the HOLY Father the only name for our Father in Heaven. that is blasphemy. who says those who do not believe in G-d just have to do good works , that dogs go to heaven and that Jesus will die at the end of the age. on and on and on and praying to the pope for forgiveness..only the bible says we get forgiveness only thru Christ our L-rd ..not to mention how the catholic have people praying to their self appoined saiints and Mary the mother of Jesus..we are to pray to no one but G-d who is Jesus and only HE can forgive..then they say that G-d did not say HE created the earth in days and Jesus will die at the end of this age..I can hardly stand it, but keep on praying and I will forever stand with the Jews and Israel forever as G-d is too..when reading the word I look for words like…UNTIL , Forever, Covenant etc. If the churches think they replaced Israel and the Jew, may be they should worry about their Covenant of Salvation..if they think G-d is a Covenant breaker..Shalom also Israel will win the last wars as well, and when Putin brings all the nations against HER , G-d will roar thru Zion and destroy all the enemies of Israel
Dear mama bear
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Please do not make so lomg comments. Few if any reads them. Rather make short comments, and ask people questions. Than wait for a reply. Than the debate will be on.
I second Ivar, mama bear–I love your enthusiasm but when confronted with a “wall of words” most will not read. Separating thoughts using paragraphs is also a good idea. Hope you are not offended by my suggestions. 🙂
Hi Ivar
Your enviously cited Jer.31:31
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
I believe this is a covenant to two peoples, the house of Israel
And the house of Judah . I interpret the latter( house of Judah)
As those who are in Christ because Yeshua is from the tribe of Judah. Who is a descendent of Abraham. Those who are in Christ a fully and truly Israel. All who are in Christ definitely
Make up the church. Unless I have wrongly understood.
Also Ivar even though it have not commented for a long time
I continue to read your blog and tell others to read as well
Thank you for your diligent work
Dear Todd.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I believe this is a covenant to two peoples, the house of Israel
And the house of Judah . I interpret the latter (house of Judah)
My comment:
Jeremiah was a Jewish prophet who lived during the prelude to the exile of the people of Israel in 600 B.C. You have to twist the scripture to make it fit into the Church. Because in the days of Jeremiah, there were two kingdoms. The Kingdom of Israel and the the Kingdom of Judah. Both houses were sent into exile.
The New Covenant was made for the Jewish people. Both the Houses. You can reject this, or try to live in ignorance. You can also falcify the Scripture, like the Pope has done. And try to convince the whole world, that is not so. The Pope and his flock say the New Covenant is for the Church, because the Jews rejected the Messiah. Well, they are partly correct. Because the first Church was of Messianic Jews only. Slowly gentile believers were added, grafted.
For the first 200 years of Christianity, the Church was a gathering of the Israel of God in Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem. And this Church went into Babylonian captivity in 320 A.D, when people fell into the traps of replacement theology. The doctrines of the Pope is still preached on this site, by claimed to be protestants. But they do no longer protest against the papacy, but rather against the author of the Bible.
Sorry Ivar,
I did not mean enviously but obviously.