Hand of St James the Great is venerated at St James’s church in Reading.
Onw of Christianity’s most ancient holy relics made a historical journey back to Reading.
Hundreds of worshippers gathered at St James’ Catholic Church, Forbury Road, to glimpse the legendary Hand of St James at the weekend.
The mummified hand, stored in a glass box normally kept at St Peter’s Church in Marlow, is believed to be of the Apostle James, one of Jesus’ closest disciples, who was martyred in AD44 by King Herod.
It was delivered on Friday [22] by the Confraternity of St James – a charity made up of enthusiasts for the pilgrimage of Santiago de Compostela to his shrine in Spain – and loaned to the church for three days to mark the Feast of St James.
The first Records of the hand being stored, is by Bishop of Torcello in Venice in 640 A.D
Source: Catholic Herald
My comment:
There are many aspects around this piece of rather rotten bones.
One is the the obvious risk is the spreading of viruses and deceases from this Church. The bones look to have not been cleansed, and so not look incorruptible at all.
The second issue is the trouble of identifying this bones, to be on the Apostle James. There is surly not DNA available from this time just after the death of resurrection of Jesus.
The first historical records of anyone claiming these bones are from 640 A.D. That leaves us with about 20 generations of uncertainty to both it whereabouts, and its origin.
The third aspects in liked to what the Bible says about people who adore, venerate or worship bones. Dead items. Remains of a created being. This is pure wickedness. A result of mans rebellion against the Word of God, who demand worship of the Creator Only.
Matthew 23:27
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.
The Creator God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The forth aspect is what to do with Churches and priests that are involved in fraud. Give them the booth.
If you want to live. renounce this kind of religious stuff as fraud. Ran out of such Churches, and join a group of people who are faithful to Jesus our Lord.
The Roman Catholic faith is so vile and wicked, that it is almost impossible to renounce it as falsehood. Catholic’s who end up in Hell, will surely have been given multiple chances to escape this place, by simply submit to the truth.
Written by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
::sigh:: I would not be a bit surprised to see Snow in Hell, when these ‘Id-gits’ ”Canonize a thousand Foreskins and call it the Philistines foreskins the Israelis took….!! ” this is should be on the Front Pages and the 5 and 11 clock News of all the antics these people pull to drag more into the caves and fires of hell!
What is the Likelihood one would cut off the hand of a friend who had Recently been killed… PERHAPS YOU WOULD IF GOD TOLD YOU TO… Perhaps it was already cut off by those who hated him… Elisha’s bones RAISED THE DEAD… One would think only those far from the time would come up with this; or a fanatic–people were being healed by handkerchiefs and shadows. <3+WENDY
….or a fanatic–people were being healed by handkerchiefs and shadows….”Be careful there, you weigh too much to be mocking the works of The Holy Spirit…”
Don’t judge the entire Catholic Church by the behavior of a few. The Church itself has taken no authoritative position on the authenticity of this relic or any other.
The real test to distinguish between prayer and idolatry is this: Does it bring you closer to Christ? If looking at the beauty of the moon at night brings your heart closer to Christ, then it is a form of prayer. If you worship the moon, it is idolatry. Same goes for relics, stataues, etc.
Ivar I suggest you do some prayer and reflection about your attitude towards fellow Christians who happen to belong to the Catholic tradition.
Mike You say…Don’t judge the entire Catholic Church by the behavior of a few. ….Well I DO judge the entire Catholic Church, it is NOT Scriptural nor uplifting anyone to Christ..it’s Demonic, Defiler of the Flesh, Pawn and Spawn of Satan, and all who refuse to Flee from this Immoral, Idolatrous, Unclean spirits breeders of Children of Darkness and Kidnappers of all who try to seek Truth, :::time and space limits further ‘Judgement of this Enemy of The Cross of JESUS CHRIST…blasphemer of Mary and Twister & Defiler of The Holy Word of God, adulterous Denominations with all the enemies of The Lord Jesus Christ and Israel. ..”as one says to any long-tailed-cat in a room full of rocking chairs”…if you don’t like the Truth…Turn around and Repent and Believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ !!
Andrea,
You are in for a big surprise when you get to heaven. You will be standing before Christ in the company of millions of faithful Catholics who love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ within their own Christian tradition, just as you do.
It is time to recognize who the real threat is. The man in the White House is working overtime to attack Christians from every direction.
Your perception of the Catholic church is prejudiced and flat wrong. Us Catholics do have our share of ignorant, unevangelized, confused people… But we have many more that love and serve the Lord every day in every way.
Time to circle the wagons and focus on the real adversary… Don’t waste your energy attacking other Christians who don’t happen to express their worship of Christ as you do.
Sweetheart I don’t attack anybody! What I do is ‘tell the truth’. If that is a problem with you or anyone, then ‘it is your problem’ not mine. The Word of God expressly says …
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Galatians1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
YOU Mike have heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ and have been told many times, yet you persist to defy The Truth. As for anyone you speak of as ‘loving The Lord Jesus’ and still remain in Catholicism is a Traitor to their selves and to The Lord of Glory. For they also have heard and been told the truth. If a person (which God says they can) can discern the Truth between two in a church, By God they also can discern also the truth whether the Pope is a pawn of Satan and that denomination is also! The ONLY reason you and others stay in that demonic hello-whole is you love your religion more than you Love Jesus and HE says…
Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
And I say also..again…FLEE from that Idolatrous Death Trap of a Religion! Time is too short to discuss and baby people who refuse the Truth. Those who have a sincere heart seeking the Truth, will an abundance of Christians to help them over come that lie they have been entangled in, but those who refuse and harden their hearts will have stones to cry out for Jesus Christ instead of their own voice to rejoice and praise The Lord of Glory! I truly with all my heart Pity you and all who persist in the lies from Hell for any religion. As long as you and they have breath in your bodies, and Jesus has not come yet, yall have a chance for Eternal Life with Jesus and His Eternal forgiveness and Mercy…but after He returns there is NO HOPE for anyone who has rejected HIS TRUTH!
Andrea, You said: “there is NO HOPE for anyone who has rejected HIS TRUTH”, I don’t argue with that statement, but I do have to ask you to state what “His Truth” is exactly. Where in the Bible does it say the Pope is a “pawn of Satan”? Or where does it say the Catholic Church is preaching “another gospel”?
The Catholic Church has been around since Pentecost. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Exactly when did the Catholic Church turn into this “pawn of Satan”? Was it when the Catholic Church defined the contents of the New Testament? Was it when the Church formally defined seven Sacraments? Was it when the Catholic Church emerged from the Roman persecution and developed the Nicene Creed to clarify the faith in the face of the Arian heretics?
You have your version of Christianity and as a Catholic I have mine. We both have our traditions and different ways of worshiping our Lord Jesus Christ at Church on Sunday and living out the Gospel seven days a week.
I just caution you not to be so quick to judge your brothers and sisters in Christ. We need to pray for each other. We need to pray for Christian unity and recognize that what unites us (the cross of Christ) is much greater than what divides us. God Bless.
Dear Mike.
Shalom.
You wrote:
The Catholic Church has been around since Pentecost. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church.
My comment:
The first believers in Yeshua were all Jews. They believed in Judaism, just like Jesus and His Jewish family. The Jews did not even have a single Catholic dogma presented to them.
What you write is wrong. It is lies presented as truth, based on a falsification of Church history. But even if lies are told a million times, and many people believe in them, they are still a pack of lies.
The Roman Catholic Church came into existence 300 years after the fist Jews accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. In 315. A.D when the Roman Emperor Constantine claimed to have been converted to “Christianity”. He merged the pagan Roman religion with Christianity, and set a pope on top of a structure that is Babylonian.
ivarfjeld, You said: “The Roman Catholic Church came into existence 300 years after the first Jews accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. In 315. A.D when the Roman Emperor Constantine claimed to have been converted to “Christianity”.
Your version of history and mine disagree. The Roman Catholic Church did not just spring into existence in 315 A.D. as a creation of Constantine. This claim has no basis in history. You can read the writings of the early church fathers (during the persecutions) and it will be clear to you that the roots of Catholic practices and tradition go back to the earliest days. The truth is for 300 years the Church was under persecution. The Church leadership was underground (literally). Bishops could not travel and meet with other Bishops. Doctrines could not be discussed in councils (like Nicea) until the persecutions ended. The foundational Nicene Creed (most all of which I suspect you agree with) was the product of Catholic church leadership meeting in council after the persecutions ended.
The Roman Catholic and Byzantine rite (Orthodox) Churches were the only Christian Churches for 1500 years – until the Protestant reformation. Not every Catholic priest or bishop or pope followed Christ during that time – there were “wolves in sheeps clothing” but the bad actors were in the minority. Most Christians were Catholics and most perservered in the faith in spite of attacks from Mongol barbarians, Moslems, Vikings, etc. The church survived and grew as Jesus said it would.
It may suprise you that the Catholic Church today does not consider you to be a heratic or a traitor. Your Christian faith is to be respected and you and other protestants are called our “separated brothers and sisters in Christ” by this Pope and the men who have preceeed him. Your baptisms and marriages are considered valid Christian sacraments. Protestants who have already been baptized or married do not need to be re-baptized or re-married if they decide to formally join the Catholic tradition.
The fact that the Catholic Church today is a friend rather than a foe is becoming increasingly clear to most American evangelicals – The Catholic Church has come out strongly against the “obamanation” of gay marriage, has always fought for life and an end to abortion, and currently has filed over 40 lawsuits across the country in an effort to protect your religious freedom and mine in the face of attacks from the Obama administration.
Christians from every traditionally conservative denomination and no denomination are under attack today. I think the devil knows his time is about up and he is trying his best to sow division amoung believers – divide and conquer.
You and Andrea have a choice. You can either play into the devil’s trap and continue to attack the Catholic church as “babylon” or you can recognize that the Holy Spirit is moving in the hearts of many Catholics – including our Bishops and Pope – and build bridges rather than throw bombs.
I ask your prayers for continued renewal in the Catholic Church, and please pray for heart-felt conversion for those Catholics who are just going through the motions and have not yet given their hearts to Christ. God Bless.
Dear Mike.
Shalom.
You wrote:
The Roman Catholic and Byzantine rite (Orthodox) Churches were the only Christian Churches for 1500 years – until the Protestant reformation.
My comment:
As I said: A lie is lie, even if it has been told a million times.
1. The Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian Church, and have nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. It represent a perversion of the Gospel, and teach blasphemy, a mix of religious stuff and paganism.
2. The Thomas Church in India was formed around 52 A.D It had absolutely nothing to do with Rome, nor the Churches in Byzantine.
3, This Church was formed by a Jewish Apostle: Thomas. Please study not biased history, and stop distributing lies presented by Roman Catholic bishops and their pope.
4. The Thomas Church in India was a baptist Church. Messianic Jews and Indian believers baptized believers in Yeshua with full immersion. They upheld the Sabbath on Friday evening, just like every true Jew would do.
5. The Roman Catholics are not baptized. The Baptist Church has been around since the Apostolic age, and the gates of Rome and Hell shall not pervail against it.
These are facts.
Now you have a choice. You can continue to base your life on the web of lies catholic priests have spun around you neck. You need to leave all the Roman Catholic falsehood behind. If you do not repent, you will perish.
Ohh Beloved of The Lord God, How sad, you can’t see….how sad….Sweetheart ‘you’re not stupid’ you know how to count …Read your paragraph to me, and then read mine to you…Tell me Whom the Lord cherishes so much he shed his blood to redeem. How many times did you lift up, defend The Catholic Church, (your beliefs)…how many times did you lift up Our Blessed Saviour Oh God that you would see …it’s the little foxes that spoil the vines. I recently got kicked out of a Baptist Church (was’t the first of any denomination, nor will it be the last by no means) But I never (nor have you) ever get kicked out of a Church because you defended their beliefs. There is only one Name under and above Heaven that can cause men to do that cruelty or any cruelty.. Before you get your haunch’s up at me again, Let me ask you one question…Mike, If you were told what you believe is a lie, would you really want the Truth? Let me make it more simple…If you were told The Catholic Church is a Lie from the pit of Hell, would you really want the Truth about Jesus Christ? Would you lay in the sin of doubt and unbelief or run to the fastest path to get all of the Truth about Jesus? You see dear it’s all about Jesus it’s not all about Catholicism nor is it all about what YOU believe about your denomination….it’s about Jesus Christ and OUR choice by Grace to follow Him all the way! Now, I will answer your questions ”after” you respond to this ..Okie-dokie…(smile)..Your Sister in Christ Jesus, no one else!! No clan, No one!! yes I know you are born again…you see A Father knows His children…and he reveals His Truth, to His children. But you are and have been kidnapped to follow another and not your Father.
Andrea,
You said: “You see dear it’s all about Jesus it’s not all about Catholicism nor is it all about what YOU believe about your denomination….it’s about Jesus Christ and OUR choice by Grace to follow Him all the way!”
I agree 100% that the gospel is focused on Jesus, and that is where our hearts should be. The Catholic church teaches people (by the millions) about Jesus every day, and Catholics worship our Lord at Catholic Masses, Bible studies, and prayer meetings around the world. Catholics are not told to worship the Pope, or any saint. Not even Mary, the Mother of God, is an object of worship according to Catholic teaching. If I ask a saint (living or dead) to pray for me, is that idolatry? Of course not. Catholics do venerate and respect the saints – our spiritual elders, but worship is reserved for the Triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
You may see the Catholic rituals and Sacraments as distractions to the faith – I see them as a form of prayer – bringing me closer to Christ. When it comes to forms of worship – To each his own. As long as our focus is Christ, we are good to go. Whether we pray on our feet, our knees, or laying down in bed at night it makes no difference.
You said: “Before you get your haunch’s up at me again, Let me ask you one question…Mike, If you were told what you believe is a lie, would you really want the Truth?” My answer to that question is yes. I have been a truth-seeker all my life. I have considered the claims of just about every denomination, read the claims and teachings of cults and atheists, and still remain a Christian of the Catholic tradition… not out of ignorance but as the result of my search for the truth and my love for Christ.
In my church, I hear the name of Jesus spoken in love all the time. That, amoung other things, tells me I am in the right place. When I hear someone speaking the name of my Lord Jesus in love, my heart jumps for joy.
On the other hand, when I hear the name of Jesus used in vein in the secular world, I must admit it gets my Irish up. If I am in a grocery line and I hear the name of Christ used in anger, that person will hear from me. When my kids were little, I simply would not tolerate bad languge and especially not the taking of the name of my Lord in vein in front of them. I tell you this as a brother in Christ tells his sister – because I believe we share the love of Christ in common. The sheep know the voice of their shepherd and follow Him.
All that said, I wish I could convince you there are many millions of Catholics who, like me, love Jesus and seek to do His will within the Catholic Church. Believe me, the fields are ripe for harvest.
….Mike, If you were told what you believe is a lie, would you really want the Truth?” My answer to that question is yes….Case closed…for I can tell you list by list all the ‘things’ you list or others on why they believe they are Catholics. When the ‘things’ is the very core…Honey…I’ve met the Master, and no one, no thing or things, can ever have or get me to say I am a ‘Denomination or defend any Denomination..though I love all the brethren whether blinded or deaf to the truth…for Jesus ‘is Truth’…You asked me to tell you ‘what is truth’….First Read 1Corinthians 15# the entire Chapter. Also we are told not to talk to the Dead…bow to no one but to Jesus the Lord of Glory. Facts of History are great, interesting and I really enjoy reading about them. But until you meet the ONE who ‘is the Lord of Glory for a personal relationship.. all your faith and religion is a quicksand of emptiness only to grab at the ankles like demons from hell to pull you back to the mire…before you get the Truth. Many Denominational Christians switched over to Muslims & Catholicism in the 1970’s like a mass exodus, they were tired of the ‘organized religion’…then the Flood of Pentecostalism swept many away from all denomination not long about the same time…How sad how sad, these who think they were on the right path found they too had just switched to another sinking ship… that offered the Brass Ring…Mike, I beseech you to look again at your post to me…YOU dear still ‘The Catholic Church’ so much out of your mouth like a propaganda puppet…Look to Jesus get real with HIM..till you know without a doubt it is all about Jesus! Oh My God I know you can do it if you ‘really want Jesus’ but if you only want to try to convince me that ‘The Catholic Church is this or that, all you’re doing is making me want to puke and cry for your lost soul you sold for a lie you also were deceived so much your heart is hardened to the truth of Jesus Christ, by all who try to tell you. Please Mike, Drop what you believe and pick up your Bible and pray, ask The Father (God Almighty in Jesus Name to let you know His Truth’…John 14, 15, 16. Also dear, Jesus already made us ‘Saints’…The Pope can’t do that..and we are NOT to talk to or pray to the ones who are dead!
…I wish I could convince you there are many millions of Catholics who, like me, love Jesus and seek to do His will within the Catholic Church. Believe me, the fields are ripe for harvest….. Sweetheart, when you are born again, you are HIS, you don’t ‘Hawk a Religion’ you Shout Praises either in Glorious shouting or in mournful praise for His Great Love for saving you..you cry alot, for the lost, for the denominational chains of the brethren, who lead them how to follow Jesus. Yet NO Christian once they meet Him, ‘never ‘but this but that’ they are no longer Goats ‘butting every Truth presented to them’…You Mike are in my prayers deeply! The Spirit loves you more than we all can and do, HE calls whom HE wills to The Truth. I pray you don’t harden your heart. Many love Jesus everywhere, yet until they are ready to ‘lay down their childish toys (things that they use to keep them happy)..they remain like the soldiers at the Cross, ‘shooting dice’ for the garment of Jesus…’another thing’…What the Sam Hill would a hand (claimed to be Brother James) have to do with The LORD GOD??? What Craziness…the blood of Pharaoh Regan…Only the Blood of Jesus Christ is of any importance…I’m sure some fool will try to ‘hawk’ that also!! Like the Mary squirting milk from a picture of a naked breast to a priest..What Blasphemy…Come on Mike you’re not that Stupid…(or are you?)
Andrea, I certainly understand why you would consider the curiosity around saint relics (bones, hands, etc.) to be off-track. Same goes with the many so-called “apparitions” of Mary (in the form of a piece of toast, for example). All I can say is that is not the way 99% of practicing Catholics express their spirituality. Of course, it makes a good headline, and the media is always happy to bash Catholics at every opportunity (too bad some Cathoics invite that criticism).
We see this kind of thing crop up in the protestant world too. Snake handlers are one example I can think of where a rather bizzare religous practice gets a lot of media attention. I don’t lump most protestants into the “snake handler” category. Please don’t lump most catholics in the “Mary-on-rye” category.
As a Catholic, I am not bound to believe in the authenticity of any of these forms of artifacts. The Catholic Church does not formally declare these relics to be geniune or an article of faith. The Church does teach that miracles can happen… so it doesn’t contradict these local expressions of faith unless they explicitly contradict the bible or church teaching (e.g. an image of Jesus turning wine into water, for example).
There are a few relics, though, that I believe do draw people closer to Christ. One I can think of is the Shroud of Turin. The Church has not proclaimed it officially to be the burial cloth of Christ, but it ‘s image and the story it tells about our Lord’s suffering birngs millions of people closer to Christ. I have no doubt about that.
Yes, Catholics and Protestants have very different forms of worship and organizational structure, yet together we are the spiritual bride of Christ !!!
If you have the opportunity to share your faith with any Catholics, I pray your love of Christ kindles or rekindles a fire in their hearts. Don’t judge your success by whether or not they leave their Catholic tradition. If they go back to Mass on Sunday with a new zeal and love for Christ … it is to God’s glory.
Dear Mike.
Shalom.
As the editor of this site, I must find a good reason to let you continue on this site. You seem to be a not polite person, who do not reply to the comments you get. You jump questions you do not like, and rather continue to promote lies and falsehood.
Please reply, or find your self another website.
1. Is the Pope the “Holy Father”?
2. Is the Pope infallible in matters of moral and how to understand the scripture?
3. Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?
4. Is Mary “ever virgin”?
5. Did Mary have other children than Jesus?
Please answer with yes or no. These are very simple questions.
ivarfjeld, I did not reply to your earlier post (the one talking about the Thomas church in India) because it was more of a statement and did not invite a response. You said: “The Roman Catholic Church is not a Christian Church, and have nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. It represent a perversion of the Gospel, and teach blasphemy, a mix of religious stuff and paganism.”
Sounds like you believe that only a tiny outpost in all of Christianity carries on the true gospel, and 99.9% of all people who consider themselves baptized are actually unsaved, unbaptized, and headed for hell.
You are free to believe that, and I won’t judge you for it. You don’t need to acknowledge my status as a Christian or acknowlege the Catholic lineage in the Christian family to be a Christian.
I would just ask that you open your mind and heart to the possibility that the Holy Spirit is moving and saving souls in any number of Christian denominations – including the Catholic Church.
As far as answers to your last post (the 5 questions): Pope means ‘Pappa” and is a term of endearment and respect, just as you or I may call our own fathers Pappa or dad.
The Pope can speak “ex Cathedra” which makes such a teaching authoritiative for Catholics, but it is rare. It has not been done once in my lifetime (over 50 years).
Catholics do believe Mary was a virgin throughout her lifetime, having conceived only one son (Jesus our Savior) through the power of the Holy Spirit.
We can call Mary ” Queen of Heaven” due to the unique role she played as the mother of Christ and this is consistent with our interpretation of Revelation 12 vs 1&2 which say: “And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.”
Catholics interpret this as a direct reference to Mary, and that is where the term “Queen of Heaven” comes from.
DId I pass the test?
Dear Mike
Shalom.
This is not about passing the test. Is about you giving a false statement, and than not being willing to acknowledge the correction.
It is the Catholics who claim the Roman Catholic Church to be the mother Church, the oldest Church, etc.
This is simply a lie. And even if this lie is told a million times, it is still a lie. The size of the Messianic Baptist Thomas Church is not important. But I can assure you that the people of India is not small in numbers. Neither today, nor in the past.
Since the Roman Catholic Church was not the first Church, it is time for you to stop distributing such lies. The first Church were all gathering of Jews. Home in Israel, and Jews living in the diaspora. Jesus told his student to preach to the Jews first. They knew no idols, and no Pope. No Bishop in Rome. They had Judaism as their religion, and like their Messiah they upheld the Sabbath as the Law of Moses demands.
The first Messianic Jews were all saved by grace. But They were not lawbreakers, and did not change the Jewish faith of Jesus.
In regards to the Queen of Heaven, I guess you are aware of the ban of using this name in the book of Jeremiah?
I will later comment on the woman with the 12 starts, found in the book of Revelation.
Dear Mike
Shalom.
Please read this link about the two women in the book of revelation. Than let me know what you think.
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/bible-lesson-12-the-two-women-in-the-book-of-revelation/
Brother you are so full of ‘Bull’….still you have not lifted up JESUS …still you lift up and defend the Catholic Church, the Catholic traditions, the Catholic way..don’t you get it yet…are your eyes so blinded Brother that not even a ‘piec\e of cloth or unraveled piece of toilet paper claimed to be used by anyone near or of Jesus can ‘get you closer’ to Jesus….Nothing…we are told not even to think of one another in the flesh, even we are told not to think of Jesus in the flesh…but ONLY in the Spirit…Don’t you understand can’t you comprehend yet, are you so far gone over to hawking and pimping a demon ruled religion that you’d not only sell your own soul but also anothers to get your false peace that you are right…NO ONE IS RIGHT BUT JESUS…if we follow Him, we are right if we do not we are most miserably wrong and not only headed to the Gates of Hell but hell-bent on taking others with us to soften the blow of ‘Depart from ME I never knew you’ Mike whether it is one Catholic or 99% of Catholics…it is ‘Catholic’…not Christian…Not one time have you heard me ‘hawk or pimp’ a denomination…Only lift up Jesus…Jesus..Jesus..as for Jesus caring for ‘the heart of a Catholic’…he went to the Cross for ALL children of darkness, Sinners..me included…as well as you..but it is not the and don’t mistake it for one minute…that being a Catholic and loving Jesus will get you any Browning points…it won’t..it will only get you ‘HELL’ permanately….you see it was, is, always will be ‘JESUS’…many will say to him, I love you…but did they love HIM enough to leave their denominational beliefs that seared their hearts and conscience to harden their hearts to His Truth..NO..neither did/do some of the Protestants/Pentecostals want to give up their toys…a special pew, special cover for the Bible, favorite Book of the Bible, (what the Word of God is less because someone prefers another…are we God that we choose what is best or not of His Word)…Oh Sweetie there are so many Toys, and many of them (yours included) will Escort you to Hell! So the next time you answer me, answer me ‘as a real believer and lover of Jesus Christ or don’t bother with your hype. I do pray you’ll get serious…one thing for sure if you love your family the way you profess to love Jesus The Lord of Glory…there’s an empty hole in each heart and it’s the place your heart should be full of The Love of God the Father to share with your family and all HE shed His Bloood for! Since you came to me with another Gospel and fully believe that Lie, I can’t even say ..God speed …that saddens me…
..forgot one that is important to publicly mention…Grave-diggers and Body snatchers from Coffins, Hawkers of Dead Body Parts!
You say…My perception of the Catholic church is prejudiced and flat wrong. Us Catholics do have our share of ignorant, un-evangelized, confused people…
Sweetheart, The Household of Faith, in/of Jesus Christ ‘has NO prejudiced, ignorant, evangelized confused people..(No Gays, perverts of any kind, drunkards, abusers of themselves, heady high-minded, dogs, and sorcerers, and whore-mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. lustful, thieves, liars,) God’s family only has Babes, growing in Grace, Mercy, Love for the brethren, Long-suffering, Patience and many other attributes of His Nature” nor do they lift up any Church or Denomination, they Always lift up Jesus Christ, first and foremost and forever for they know in whom they believe and were saved by …The Only Begotten Son of God…not a prophet, not a pope, not a woman who they claim is His mother, not someone to twist The Holy Word of God to suit their sexual lusts as ‘believing they’ll get to have sex with 72 virgins in heaven, not a tree hugger, not a fat bald-headed cross-legged god of stone..not ones who rejected His Word for gold stones sent to any man. Many more I could name, but I won’t …know this There is ONLY ONE WAY FOR SALVATION…and that is by The Shed Blood of our Savior Jesus Christ, for there is No other way but thru the Blood of Jesus Christ, with repentance and faith in what HE did, said, ‘is’…No one else!
Hi Mike,
I think the problem that we have is not with any individual Catholic. If he or she is following the Biblical faith, (which I believe some number of Catholics do) then they are a brother or sister in the Lord. Our problem is with the Roman Catholic Church (and its hierarchy) and many of its un-Biblical teachings and practices. We have real concern for those who are following its leading. In speaking to many Catholics (and former Catholics) I have drawn the impression that parishioners within the RCC are either unsaved and superstitious followers of a religion or, if they read the Bible, are saved and are following “leaders” who are unworthy of the name. My husband was saved while hearing and reading the Bible even though he remained in the RCC for a time. When I asked him why he remained there even though he understood that the RCC has many teachings and practices that are at odds with the Bible, he said that he didn’t know what else to do as he figured Protestant churches were as bad or worse. We attend a wonderful evangelical church now and he said that he wishes that he could have attended a church like ours all his life.
Ellen, Sorry for not replying to you earlier. Didn’t see your post.
I am glad you recognize the Lord can work in the hearts of Catholics. I also understand that some RCC teaching and practices seem foreign if you look at the Bible only.
Catholics and other Orthodox Christians rely on both Scripture and the tradition we believe was handed down from the Apostles and their successors. After all, for the first few decades after the resurrection of Christ, there was no New Testament, and for centuries thereafter, some congregations only had fragments of written scripture. What did they rely on? Tradition handed down and the teaching of their spiritual elders in authority (deacons, bishops).
Every Sunday Catholics receive the Word Of God in Scripture. Chapters of the Old Testament and New Testament are read to the congregation. I just wish more Catholics paid attention to Scripture and the teachings of their own church…. if that were the case, we wouldn’t have so many bad examples out there.
….I also understand that some RCC teaching and practices seem foreign if you look at the Bible only…..What the Sam Hill book are Mankind supposed to ‘only’ look at but The Bible…hmm?? Donald Duck Comic or I’d say Playboy but the Priest already have that one cornered…geesh…! ‘if you look at the Bible only’…look around Mike, the Angel that was assigned to you is out on the highway thumbing a ride to get away from the ‘Target of Lightening’..!! (prabably not but you really are pushing away from the scripture in Ecclesiastes to the limit! Fear God and obey HIS Commandments)
Forgive me, Mike but the reason why Catholics don’t pay attention to the Scriptures is because it is not encouraged by the RCC hierarchy (historically, the RCC clergy’s position is that the laity cannot be TRUSTED with the Bible). Prior to the Reformation, the Catholic laity were not even PERMITTED to have the Scriptures in their own language. William Tyndale was executed by Catholics for translating the Bible into English. Martin Luther narrowly missed being executed for his “crimes” (one of which was that he translated the Bible into German). Without the protection of Frederick the Elector, Luther would have, no doubt, suffered the same fate as Tyndale. The Scriptures ARE dangerous it seems. When people read the word of God, they start asking uncomfortable questions about much that goes on in the RCC hierarchy.
Even many Catholics are convinced that the Vatican is utterly and hopelessly corrupt. In speaking with my Catholic cousin about the problem, I asked her why she stayed in the RCC. She loves the word of God and her knowledge of it would put many evangelicals to shame. Her answer was that all of the institutions of men are corrupt in proportion to their worldly power and that I might as well ask her why she stays in the U.S. when there are other, (maybe better) nations to which she could emigrate. I said that at least if she went to “the little brown church in the vale” (a Protestant standard before the mega-churches grabbed all the attention) she had a much greater probability of avoiding being stained by the corruption of the RCC. While I believe my cousin to be saved, I believe that the vast majority of Catholics are not—they are being led, as lambs to the slaughter, by their leadership who are “blind guides”. They do not have the “words that give eternal life” (see John 6:68-69) and they do not lead Catholics to knowing and believing them. Jesus is the living word of God who, on the night before He died, prayed earnestly for the sanctification of His Church THROUGH THE WORD OF GOD (John 17:17). This is at odds with the (self-serving?) RCC teaching that insists that the “sacraments” are the means of sanctification. In the original “ethnic cleansing,” when the RCC turned their backs on Jewish Christians and on the word that the Holy Spirit inspired, they lost any hold on the “scarlet thread of redemption” for all but a few who actually understood the importance and the primacy of the WHOLE of Scripture. It is simply inadequate to come up with a list of teachings, grab pieces of Scripture to support them and ignore the rest of the Bible. The word of God is a love letter written in blood—the blood of prophets and saints, to be sure, but much more than that, the very blood of God. We ignore it to our peril. I could never be part of a “church” that did not hold to the supremacy of Scripture in the life of the believer.
To illustrate my point, just look at what we discussed the other day. You put up a list of Scriptures that supposedly backed RCC doctrinal positions, but you failed to account for the lines of Scripture that contradicted those doctrines. Therefore, it must be concluded that the doctrines are wrong. Catholics do not, for the most part, question erroneous doctrines and that is the same problem that Jesus was attacking in His challenge to the religious leaders of His day—calling them “blind guides”(Matthew 23:16)—turning a follower into “twice the son of hell as you yourselves are”. (Matthew 23:15).
Ellen, something you said I have not heard before – ” In the original “ethnic cleansing,” when the RCC turned their backs on Jewish Christians and on the word that the Holy Spirit inspired, they lost any hold on the “scarlet thread of redemption”
Can you explain this statement for me? When did the RCC turn their backs on Jewish Christians”? What is the “scarlet thread of redemption” you refer to?
As far as the translations of the scriptures are concerned, I thank God for the Catholic clergy members who faithfully preserved scripture over the centuries – in spite of barbaric invasions and persecutions. The first 1500 years of Christianity were no cake walk. 99% of the population was illiterate. The churches illustrated the Gospel through stained glass and other visual means so people could understand the faith and be reminded of it. What is wrong with that?
When you say the church is teaching errors, then I would ask if you have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to actually understand their position on the interpretation of a particular scripture? When Jesus said: ‘This is my body” when He broke the bread at the Passover, was he speaking literally or was it some sort of symbolism? This is a point where Catholics and Protestants tend to disagree, but the Scriptures bear out the Catholic point of view on this matter. It seems clear cut to me.
Safe to say that we both have very different understandings of Christian history, biblical interpretation, and Christian practice. Although we don’t agree on much, I don’t doubt that you are a Christian. I pray our common denominator, our love for Christ , will move us toward greater harmony and greater unity. The body of Christ (in all its denominational and non-denominational manifestations) needs to become one as Jesus prayed In John 17:21, God Bless.
{..I pray our common denominator, our love for Christ , will move us toward greater harmony and greater unity.}… Hey apply for a job with Pharaoh Obama, Muslim Leaders, Tony Blair and lets not forget Ole Faithful Rick Warren ..they’ll love to have you Mike…just let us get along in ‘unity’….hahaha…God has no unity with Devils!!!
If I had to dig up a dead body cut off it’s limbs and/or any Church leader do that and expect me to make me feel closer to Jesus…follow them for my Eternal Salvation…I’d flat tell them ‘you’re flippin Nuts’….If ‘anyone told me that is the way to get closer to Jesus….I’d find another Jesus…!! Just liken when I was healed many years ago of something a believer came to me and said, ‘Andrea, you better be careful now Satan will come after you…I (new in this walk with Jesus) told her, Satan has his chance with me and he blew it..Jesus healed me…(smile)…No one in their right mind would follow and defend Catholicism at all…if people want to go to hell that bad, drink Arsnic…but stop this lunacy but it won’t stop…the Pope is too much into this ‘Unity thing with the othr devils followers I already mentioned and the “Wanna-be Pharaoh, Pharaoh Obama, Muslim Leaders, Tony Blair and lets not forget Ole Faithful Rick Warren, lets not forget Shculler also!
……The first 1500 years of Christianity were no cake walk. 99% of the population was illiterate….How dare you be so arrogant…99% of the population was illiterate…what about the ‘thousands who heard The Lord and His Disciples who believed…The Catholic church denied people to access to read the Word of God…just like the arrogant devils denied women to read, black people to read, re-wrote their own Bibles…and still doing it today…writing their own Bibles..and brain-dead, zombies lead astray countless seekers..who know in their hearts at the New Birth it is all about JESUS they know in their hearts right from wrong..The Leading of The Holy Spirit tells them but they get around Satan pawns and follow them till their own hearts are hardened to the Truth…just like you…
Hi Mike,
You said: “Ellen, something you said I have not heard before – ‘In the original “ethnic cleansing,” when the RCC turned their backs on Jewish Christians and on the word that the Holy Spirit inspired, they lost any hold on the “scarlet thread of redemption” ‘ Can you explain this statement for me? When did the RCC turn their backs on Jewish Christians? What is the ‘scarlet thread of redemption’ you refer to?”
The RCC under Emperor Constantine refused admission of the 18 Jewish-Christian bishops of Asia Minor to the Council of Nicea. That began the “ethnic cleansing” of Jewish-Christians from the Roman Church. From there, the understanding of the Old Testament and its vital backdrop for the Christian faith was greatly impaired. The long history of Israel was made “null and void” to most Christians in the West and a grasp of the “scarlet thread of redemption” (redemption history) was nearly lost until the Reformation. The “scarlet thread of redemption” is a way of speaking of God’s salvific work in His dealings with mankind. That scarlet thread runs through the whole of Scripture from Genesis through Revelation.
You said: “As far as the translations of the scriptures are concerned, I thank God for the Catholic clergy members who faithfully preserved scripture over the centuries – in spite of barbaric invasions and persecutions. The first 1500 years of Christianity were no cake walk. 99% of the population was illiterate.”
And whose fault was that? The RCC made the decision early on to cooperate with those who would keep the masses ignorant. (Illiterate people are much easier to control.) One of the main driving forces of modern mass education was to enable the masses to read the Bible for themselves—and that was begun by Protestants! For 1000 years, the RCC kept the people in ignorance because it suited their purposes. It would have produced “uncomfortable questions for the RCC clergy if the people had started reading the Bible. The RCC, with its wealth and power, could have supplied the whole world with Bibles and taught the peoples of the earth to read it. The tragedy of all the ages is that they did not.
You said: “The churches illustrated the Gospel through stained glass and other visual means so people could understand the faith and be reminded of it. What is wrong with that?”
Would you think you had done an adequate job of rendering Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony if you played it for people on a harmonica? Pictograms simply do NOT convey the majesty of God or His passionate love for His people. They do not convey His desire for relationship with those made in His image. For that, we must read His word. Do you think Jesus was speaking idle words in the Garden of Gethsemane when He asked the Father to sanctify His followers in the word? (John 17:17)
You said: “When you say the church is teaching errors, then I would ask if you have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to actually understand their position on the interpretation of a particular scripture? When Jesus said: ‘This is my body’ when He broke the bread at the Passover, was he speaking literally or was it some sort of symbolism?”
It is obvious that He was speaking symbolically and of a spiritual truth, just as when He spoke of Himself as a “door” or the “Bread of Heaven”. The prohibition against drinking blood was given as a strong teaching by God in the Old Testament. You have already had this explained to you. Would God then reverse Himself and say that it was quite alright to drink the literal blood of Jesus? It is incredibly carnal to expect that our Savior could be reduced to a cracker and then eaten! Jesus said in John 6:63, “It is the Spirit who gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”
You said: “This is a point where Catholics and Protestants tend to disagree, but the Scriptures bear out the Catholic point of view on this matter. It seems clear cut to me.”
What seems “clear cut” to you and what actually is the truth are apparently two different matters, in this case. Have you read the entire 6th chapter of John? In 6:27 Jesus says, “But you shouldn’t be so concerned about perishable things like food. Spend your energy seeking the eternal life that I, the Son of Man, can give you…” What about Jesus statement in Matthew 4:4 (which is His quote from Deuteronomy 8:3) “Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” That is exactly what I mean when I say that the proper understanding of the words of Christ was destroyed when the RCC made the decision to disregard the Old Testament backdrop for Jesus’ redemptive work. What about Jeremiah 15:16, “Thy words were found and I ate them, and Thy words became for me a joy and the delight of my heart; For I have been called by Thy name, O Lord God of hosts.” Do you really believe that Jeremiah literally ate a Torah scroll?
You said: “Safe to say that we both have very different understandings of Christian history, biblical interpretation, and Christian practice. Although we don’t agree on much, I don’t doubt that you are a Christian. I pray our common denominator, our love for Christ , will move us toward greater harmony and greater unity. The body of Christ (in all its denominational and non-denominational manifestations) needs to become one as Jesus prayed In John 17:21.”
The New Testament tells us repeatedly to avoid having anything to do with false teachers. 1 Cor. 5:11 tells us to avoid those who claim to be Christians and yet worship idols (among other sins)—to not even eat with them. Ivar has, over and over, put up evidence of the RCC practice of idol worship. There can be no unity between Christ’s people and idol worshipers. I truly hope that you don’t kneel before pictures of John Paul II (where he holds a Satanic “bent cross”) or kiss a reliquary holding his blood, Mike. I pray that you will be inspired by God’s Holy Spirit to really truly get into God’s word instead of the pre-digested scraps fed to you by the RCC. The time is short.
Sister, you’re in my prayers…this one is also…I’ve about heard enough of that ‘garbled hype from hell’ as I can take…no where does he lift up Jesus and everywhere he tries to get people into a Historical Debate…which in and of it self is nothing less than
“pure-adulterated-idolatry-adultry and a fishing line to reel in any unsuspecting viewer who may find his termonology interesting”..Another trick of Satan..Keep your Spiritual mouth shut sweetie, he’s got the bait and so far continuiously tries to reel in any ‘Fish of Christ’ to his side under the guise of deceit just to keep the Saint busy responding ..Criminals do the same thing just to get your presence from leaving them…they’ll (some) play games and that’s when my heart turns to stone to them and lift them up to Jesus yet if one just one Inmate shows the slightest remorse and/or allowing the Truth to continue flowing they will always have my attention for their time is as short as this man or ‘woman’ whatever it may be Mike…There was another one not long ago that had this same tactic…I see Ivar called it at the get-go..and yet our Lord continues to put them in the many paths of those He grants compassion on and on and on till ‘He too gives to them the same message as He did to another woman, He gave her space to repent.
Yes, I agree, Andrea—many Catholics like Mike seem to be pretty well sold on the RCC. He refuses to acknowledge or address the many points that have been made against his positions. But other Catholics lurk here and I hope that they will be persuaded to investigate the matter for themselves, in the word of God, rather than merely accepting what the apostate RCC tells them. The RCC manages, with early conditioning, to seal up the minds and hearts of Catholics to the truth of God’s word. In that, they do the devil’s work. The devil truly hates the word and the Word of God. I pray that the Holy Spirit will do a work among Catholics to get them to read and understand God’s word and to save them apart from the RCC. Amen?
They like the homosexuals/lesbians have a ‘hatred spirit’ that has no bounds…it’s seen when they feel threatened that the ‘host body’ is about to listen with their hearts even in the slightest bit, you can see their ugly head rise up and if they could kill you they would, Jesus mentioned this spirit many times…the Muslims have it also, so do the Mormans anyone…that has given their selves over to the lies of the devil’s control..that demon does not want to relinquish control…when it is cast out, and if that person does not ‘feed on His Word’ ,…that demon will go get 7 more worse ”WORSE” than he is and Jesus said ‘he’ ..and they will come and indwell in that body that one that had a 1,000 demons in it shows us that many times that person had ‘many people try to win that one back from the life it had been living’….But when Jesus set him free, those demons could not come back because they knew (smile) their ‘time’ was not up but could not re-enter that body but could in the pigs ..You are right the ‘Catholic Church’ brain-washes these till they have no clue they even are led around by a Demon! All of them hate Jesus!! and anyone who Loves and Lifts up Jesus..ticks them off Royally!!
Dear Andrea,
Your sweeping generalizations about all Catholics and all homosexuals, dished out in coarse southern colloquialisms are becoming offensive and are of no value to the cause of Christ. We are admonished to give glory to God as we spread the Gospel in truth and in love.
Jesus commands us to love our neighbors and to show them that love in both word and deed. By example, Jesus showed us His love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Did Jesus bash you over the head with harsh words, Andrea, while you were yet a sinner or did he patiently allow you to grow in Him by giving you kind, loving and supportive teachers and mentors until your heart was open to receive Him?
Ezekiel 16 gives an image of an infant who was despised and abandoned in an open field and given no regard to its very life. “On the day you were born your cord was not cut, nor were you washed with water to make you clean, nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths. No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you. Rather, you were thrown out into the open field, for on the day you were born you were despised.”
BUT… Jesus saw the helpless child and said:
“Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, ‘Live!’ I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare. Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.”
I love this passage in Ezekiel, Andrea, because it speaks to my childhood and how the Lord found me in my distress. Although the commentaries say this passage is about Israel’s helplessness and her struggles, it certainly can have a dual interpretation and apply to all of us who in our struggles, once were abandoned and left to die, but were rescued unto eternal life by a merciful God. How wide, how long, how high, and how deep is His love for us — a God who had always watched over us, never leaving or forsaking us, even in our sin and unbelief. The passage shows us that when God saw us in our weakness, He never bashed us with harsh words and said, “I’ll come back to you when you get your act straightened out”.
Your harsh “over-the-top” technique of ministering, Andrea, will not catch a single fish in the net you cast because you have hidden in the strings murderous and hungry sharks. We wrestle not with people but with principalities and powers, spiritual wickedness in high places. So be kind to others, Andrea, lest your own words condemn you. (This advice is also for myself.)
I think Sueliz said this to you once before but you almost had to be dragged away kicking and screaming. And please don’t try to form cliques and alliances on the board and gang up on others as you attempted to on the other thread when I had a comment directed to “Ellen” — not to you. This ganging up is a popular dysfunctional group dynamic that happens on internet forums and is toxic.
You need to tone your ministry style down. There is nothing wrong with contending for the faith and speaking truth, but please do find a better technique before you send people running further from God rather than towards Him. ” She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue” (Proverbs 31:25) “Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience” (Colossians 3:12).
God Bless.
Are you done?
JM,
You said: “And please don’t try to form cliques and alliances on the board and gang up on others as you attempted to on the other thread when I had a comment directed to “Ellen” — not to you. This ganging up is a popular dysfunctional group dynamic that happens on internet forums and is toxic.”
I’m not sure who you think assigned you to going about “correcting” others here, but this accusation that you directed at Andrea is very unfair and uses psychological mumbo jumbo to justify what is, in reality, just you being a bit of a busybody—please forgive me for being so blunt. I personally enjoy most of Andrea’s piquant observations and am grateful for her passionate defense of orthodoxy. Even if she can be a little rough around the edges, I know that her motive is one of love for the lost. There are many parts of Christ’s Body and we need to have loving tolerance for them all, no matter what their personal style is—“judge, but judge rightly”. Do you really think you will be more effective in your ministry by going about attacking and discouraging other Christians? I suggest that you practice what you preached to Andrea. Romans 12:45—“For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.”
Dear JM and Ellen
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I feel you are having a very fruitless debate. Few of us are interested in this kind of stuff.
Why do you not send emails to each other, or meet for a cup of tea somewhere?
Sister thank you very much for your kind words. I had to see the ‘Hand again’ up top as I scrolled to this part…”that is one ugly hand” The Lord must give Ivar a special Anointing to unearth these things and stomach them to reveal them to us as well as the lost who also needs to see the depth these have traveled with Satan!
You’re very welcome, Andrea. Yes, “the hand” is possibly the worst yet. Satan no doubt delights in the dead-body-parts fetish of some in the RCC.
I reckon it fits…a Gospel to the Dead, of the Dead, from the Dead with this I will probably get a lot of the ‘voices ”of” the Dead!! these are those who lift up the World of The Dead and it’s Leaders/Followers of Satan ..