The glossy beauty parlor gospel

Some teachers claim the bride of Christ will be taken away before the trouble of the Great tribulation.

The beauty parlor gospel is not the true gospel. And badly bruised and marginalized churchwill eventuelly be raptured.

The Prosperity gospel claims the Church will not suffer agony and pain, but walk in victory and always be successful. Many teachers tell us that there are new seasons coming, and everyone with perfect faith can enjoy health and wealth in the last days.

The teachers of a pre tribulation rapture of the Church, use the bride of the book of Revelation as a picture on the Church. The message is that the Church has be presented beautiful, happy and spotless when she face the Messiah coming to take her home.

There are many problem with this message.

A Christian who in 2010 become a martyr, was not necessarily a pretty site. Its easy to conclude that a beaten, bloody and headless saint must have misunderstood the gospel of “fame, perfect health and wealth”.

John 3:29
The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.

Not even priceless amount of make up could have made such a perfect bride of Christ fit into a false “beauty queen doctrine”.

Luke 21:15-17
For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. All men will hate you because of me.

In regards to focus, commitment, faithfulness to the persecuted Messiah, the martyr’s seems to have understood the Gospel. They have correctly rejected the false “beauty parlor gospel”, and become a living sacrifice for Jesus our Lord. Surely Blameless, and without spots.

What kind of worldly pleasure have the bide of Christ renounced?

Basically the bride has refused to become a “good looking prostitute”. Be aware that just before the wedding feast, the great prostitute, the Whore of Babylon will be exposed. She will surely be both rich and adored.

The exposure of both the bride of Christ and the great prostitute will take place inside the Great Tribulation, the very season of wrath from God.

Revelation 19
After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” And again they shouted:
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

The bride of Christ has not corrupted her self.

Revelation 19:6-8
Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

 For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad 
and give him glory! 
For the wedding of the Lamb has come, 
 and his bride has made herself ready. 
Fine linen, bright and clean, 
was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

(end of this scripture).

Its also worth to take notice of another bride, the New Heavenly Jerusalem:

Revelation 21:2
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Another problems with the “Bride in the sky” doctrine, is the Church being separated from Israel, who alone will suffer in the Great Tribulation.

That is a doctrine of true replacement theology. Israel alone will have to deal with the final antichrist.

The third problem with such doctrines, is that the Book of Revelation teach that there will be saints coming out of the Great Tribulation, that have been washed in the blood the Lamb. So obviously, both Israel and the Holy Spirit have been left behind when the Church was “taken away”.

The third question, is related to the need to take the bride away from the Earth. She will be separated for a wedding feast in Heaven, and later brought back to the Planet for the final judgment and separation.

If the Church is not coming back again from Heaven, Jesus has to take the goats with him to Heaven as well. This is neither in accordance with the scripture, nor is it logic. Since the separation of the righteous and the wicked will take place on Earth at the very end, the Church have to be present where the Holy Spirit has called her to be. With Him.

The doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture of a perfected and spotless bride, do require three comings of the Lord. One as the Lamb of God, one as the bridegroom, and one as the Lion of Judah.

In my Bible I can only read about two comings of the Messiah. I believe the coming of the Messiah as the bridegroom and the Lion of Judah will be one and the same.

We have to keep our oil burning, and keep enough oil. From the Apostolic age up towards our days, all Christians have been called to be ready for both a sudden coming of the Lord and a bumpy and painful ride ahead.

Lets take a deeper look, and use more scriptures from the book of Revelation. Please consider my objections based on the scripture.

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 11:3-8
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die.

To those who proclaim that the book of Revelation must be read in chronological order, it must be noticed that the rapture is not taking place at the beginning of the book of Revelation. It comes after a lot of exposure, wrath and persecution in Chapter 11.

Revelation 11:11-12.
But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

In Revelation chapter 12, the story of the people of Israel is also revealed. Many of those events explained her, is linked to the preparation of the first coming of Jesus.

In conclusion:

The doctrine of the pre Great tribulation rapture of “the Church” and her wedding fest in Heaven, while another Church is formed inside the Great Tribulation, does not make sense.

First published: 19.10.2010

Written by Ivar

85 thoughts on “The glossy beauty parlor gospel

Add yours

  1. If Christians go through bad times and are not raptured when they think…they might fall away because they don’t understand why they are being persecuted.
    It’s good that you talk about it. If they don’t believe you now, maybe they will when the time comes.

    1. Dear Victoria.

      Shalom, and thanks for ministering on this site. I am amazed that so many Pentecostal Christians, believe in this doctrine. I hope and pray that many people will read this article, and try to convince me that I have misunderstood.

      1. Why are you so obsessed with disproving the rapture? The scripture says we should avoid vain disputings. This is not edifing the body of Christ.
        Who are the redeemed in revelation chapter 5 that praise their Lord (before) he opens the seals and judges the earth?
        We need to rightly divide the word of truth and stop gendering strife in the church

      2. Dear Kip

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        What wrong is there inn a debate about the rapture?

        Where is the verse i chapter 5 in the book of Revelation, that express that the Church will be raptured?

  2. Thankyou Ivar,

    Well said Sir, what many people do not understand is that the Rapture theory originates from Roman Catholic doctrine. There is no such thing as the pre-trib rapture as you say.
    We all must be strong and pray for faith to survive what soon must take place, beleiving that we will not face hardship or that time means if we feel ‘left behind or unprepared, then those with little faith or strength will fall away, all because of a false worldy doctrine. A little discernment and knowledge of scriptures goes a long way.
    Well done Ivar.
    Elohim Barukh Atem, Shalom Alechiem!

    1. Dear Rob.


      I am convinced that there is no pre-trib-rapture. But I am open for other views. To convince me that I am wrong, teachers must use scripture. One thing for sure: When the rapture takes place, it will take place. I feel its important to be ready to face my Master Jesus every day, and also be ready for much stronger persecution. This was the calling of the Martyr’s. This is my calling.

      1. Though the church I attend does NOT preach this prosperity gospel, I do find references in the bible that lead me (along with my pastor and several others) to believe that there will be a pre-trib rapture.

        I first want to make it clear that I’ve attended this church my entire life, and we belive in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We believe that Jesus died for our sins, and through him, by accepting the blood he shed for our sins, we will be with him for eternity. And also important, I believe that we can only be happy with Jesus Christ in our lives.

        That being said: There are a few bible verses that hint at a pre-trib rapture.

        Isaiah 26:19-21 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her; she will conceal her slain no longer. *end of scripture*

        The above verse is from the old testament, and is probably the clearest (in the old testament) in God’s intentions for the church.

        Look at: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. *end of scripture*

        And look at 1 Thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. *end of scripture*

        The rooms Isaiah was talking about can be found here: John 14:2-3 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where *end of scripture*

        There is also this very telling verse: 1 Thess 4:15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.“

        I do believe Revelation 11:11-12 speaks of the two witness who will be taken up to heaven.

        Matt. 24:36-25:46 gives more information on the rapture and the tribulation.

        2 Thess. 2:6-8 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. *end of scripture*

        The restrainer is believed to be the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit,is sealed within us, you can’t take away the holy spirit without taking away the church.

        Cor. 15:51-53 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. *end of scripture*

        2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. *end of scripture*

        Who is that with the Lord? Rev. 17:14 says, “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” *end of scripture*

        It is the Church, in Heaven during the Great Tribulation, and returning with Him at its end.

        God Bless.

      2. Dear Gloria.

        Shalom, my most beloved sister.

        There are many thing we can disagree on, and still love one another. We must not mix up the different topics. The doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture is not a matter of salvation. Its a matter of end time theology.

        Let us remind all our readers about three different matters.

        1. Justification by faith, alone.
        2. Sanctification by good deeds, and a life of holiness.
        3. Various matters, like the event of the rapture.

        Dear Gloria. My concern with a doctrine of a pre-trib-rapture, is that the Church might not be prepared for persecution. The difference between a martyr”s death and the horrible wrath that will come during the Great Tribulation, might be marginal. To be tortured and killed because you refuse to renounce Jesus, is also very much what takes place for hundreds of thousands of Christians today, and surely will take place inside the Great Tribulation.

      3. Not that anyone was making a direct connection withthe two, but I’d like to state the two VERY DIFFERENT meanings of Prosperity Gospel and Pentecostal Christians.

        Prosperity gospel is a religious belief found among “tens of millions” of Christians centered on the notion that God provides material prosperity for those he favors.

        Pentecostal Christian: If I were to be classified as anything it would be as a Penetecostal Christian, and I do attend a Pentecostal Church. As I said, above I believe in Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit. And I completely believe and accept, the huge sacrifice Christ made for our sins.

        God Bless.

      4. Ivar,

        I apologize if I mixed pre-trib rapture with salvation. That was not my intention. I just wanted to point out a few bible verses that I think point to pre-trib.

        I agree with you 100% on your three points. The bible is clear: Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

        Your Comment: To be tortured and killed because you refuse to renounce Jesus, is also very much what takes place for hundreds of thousands of Christians today, and surely will take place inside the Great Tribulation

        Yes, Ivar. That is horrendous. India, Dafur so many other countries where believers of Christ are being persecuted. It breaks my heart see to this. And I believe it is only the beginning. The persecution will be more wide spread, and will get worse.

        But thank you Jesus because through him we are saved.

        You’re blessed when your commitment to God provokes persecution. The persecution drives you even deeper into God’s kingdom.” Matthew 5:10

        “It is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22.

        “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you.” John 15:18-20 NIV

        “In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.” 2 Timothy 3:12 NIV

        “Therefore, brothers, in all our distress and persecution we were encouraged about you because of your faith.” 1 Thessalonians 3:7

    2. Not taking either side but to say that the doctrine of the rapture originates in the rc church is wrong, the rc church like justification by faith did not preach such messages because it cancels out rc doctrines such as purgatory, mass, indulgences, control and money. If catholics were going to be raptured then there must be no purgatory so no need to pay priests to say massesto escape purgatory etc etc. The whole rapture teaching is anti rc so its highly unlikely that the rc church would have invented such a doctrine, there is no money or control in it for them. It could be that like justification by faith, it is another doctrine of the bible that was rediscovered as there are many references from the early church that seem to speak of such an occurence and can be googled, most notebly Ephraim the Syrian but also other curious OT verses such as Isaiah 26 for example, non the less getting off track but it is certainly not an rc doctrine.

      1. I would agree, tom. The RCC does not teach prophecy and, as far as I know, rarely (if ever) mentions the Book of Revelation— which is the primary work of prophecy in the New Testament. Because the RCC is dominionist in its leanings (and always has been), they emphasize the building of the Kingdom of God here on earth so that Christ will come again to rule it! Dominionism in the RCC was responsible for the Inquisition and the Crusades among other dastardly orgies of blood-letting.

        The Book of Revelation contradicts dominionism, as it makes clear that it is Christ Himself who will put His Kingdom in place in spite of all that Satanically-inspired men do to try to stop it. It is not surprising that the RCC ignores Revelation. They have their own prophecies concocted by various RCC clergy, (St. Malachi among the most often cited).

  3. If there is a rapture I expect people who believe in it would find it difficult to be raptured. If you heard a voice that said “come up” could anyone obey that voice if it meant leaving everything you had of the earth behind? About the same as dyin. Few could go if any.

  4. I totally agree….

    I used to believe in the rapture theory before when I was a christian..but even then I couldn’t really swallow it…it just seemed not right. I used to seek Yahweh for the truth in the Bible…and…found the answer in the book of Revelation 14…I am preparing myself in these last days to go through persecution and pray that I will not deny nor forsake my saviour Messiah Yahshua…

    Thanks for the posting…Shalom.

  5. Jesus, our returning Lord & King, could not be clearer about when He is returning & when the resurrection/rapture (a single event) will take place.

    Matthew 24:29-31 “But IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (end of scripture)

    Christ makes it clear that His return, on the clouds, with the trumpet, with the angels gathering His elect (clearly including the Church) is “AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS”. This is the same event spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15 & 1 Thessalonians 4; a resurrection/rapture. The dead in Christ are resurrected, the living in Christ are raptured. Additionally, the 2 Thessalonians passage shows clearly that Christ’s return cannot be until AFTER the man of lawlessness is revealed and the falling away takes place.

    I pray pre-trib rapturists will examine the CONTEXT of each of the scriptures they use. Anyone can bring an appealing notion to scripture and make scripture say what they want to agree with the notion. A clear & simple reading of all “pre-trib” passages IN THEIR CONTEXT, and placed together with Christ’s own words, reveals His glorious return & gathering of His saints will take place AFTER the “great tribulation”.

    We must prepare our hearts & watch–just as He said. We won’t be “taken to heaven” but will be “caught up together” with all saints “in the air and thus we shall always be with Him.” He doesn’t take us back to heaven; we join Him on His return to earth to reign with him for a thousand years! What glory He has in store for those Believers who are prepared & watching & working!

    1. Hi Jeff,

      I believe that there is more than one group of the “elect”. The Bride is one group but there are more “elect” than just the Bride. Israel is also the “elect” (which really means “Chosen Ones”). The Apostle Paul made a distinct point of speaking about the two different groups that God is saving, in the Book of Romans. Israel and the Church. While I agree that this is nothing to break fellowship over, I do believe that it is important to discuss these things. The Book of Revelation tells us that there is a blessing granted to those who study it and I think that can be generalized to the study of prophecy in total. I have always been blessed by my study of prophecy and the “Blessed Hope” (Titus 2:13) may indeed be the Rapture of the Church.

      I also believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church because we are not appointed to God’s wrath. The Church has always suffered the wrath of Satanically inspired men and will do so until “she” is taken away. I believe that Israel has also always suffered the wrath of Satanically inspired men, but God has physically protected and provided for Israel when “she” draws close to Him. He will protect them when they cry out to Him at the End—I believe that we see this with the “woman” of Revelation 12 (she is Israel and she is taken to a place of safety). Think about it. Enoch was saved from the wrath of the judgment of the Flood—Noah and his family were spared the wrath of God’s judgment in a different way—so were Lot and his daughters. I believe that those were types of the Rapture.

      The Tribulation of course contains the wrath of Satanic men (much warfare) but it also contains an abundance of the wrath of God’s judgment on unbelievers (7 terrible earthquakes, “hail and fire mixed with blood” a “mountain” being thrown into the sea that poisons the sea creatures and destroys many ships, another “star called bitterness” which causes the fresh water to become bitter and poison many people, famine, disease). I believe that the Church will be taken away either before or at some point during the Tribulation and that Israel will be protected from the God-made disasters and arrive at the Millennium unscathed. The Church has already repented and are spared forevermore from God’s wrath by the Blood of Jesus. That is why we must and have always preached repentance because the Kingdom is near at hand. The age of grace is but a mere whisper of time in God’s prophetic timetable. It is a false gospel that does not teach fearing the one who can destroy body and soul in hell and the importance of repentance—that without it justification is impossible.

      The Book of Revelation makes clear that the unbelievers refuse to repent even though they know that it is God the Father and the Lamb who are sending wrathful calamity on them. (Rev. 6:15-17) There is no mention of believers facing God’s wrath at any point. Actually, there is no mention of believers facing God’s wrathful judgment in all of Scripture. Some might point to Job but he really faced Satan’s temptation to curse God because of all the pain that Satan was inflicting on him. In any case, Maranatha! 🙂

  6. Brethren,

    What haughtiness to assume your collective individual opinion are an adequate refutation of scripture! The harpazo is concealed in the OT in the types of Enoch, Elijah, Noah, Lot, Moses’ “come up hither” on Mt. Sinai, et al. The harpazo is revealed in the NT, first through the word of our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and then more extensively through the apostles Paul (1/2 Thess 4, 1 Cor. 15) and John (Rev. 4:1).

    This is what God’s Word says: in the same way he ascended, Jesus will descend again (Acts 1:11) not to rule and reign as when he touches down on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4) but ONLY unto those who look for him will he appear a second time unto salvation (Hebrews 9:28). He has promised SPECIFICALLY to the believer that he has gone to prepare a place for us and will come again to receive THE BELIEVER unto himself (John 14:1-4), and that for those who keep the word of his patience he will keep from (literally “out of”) the hour of testing that shall come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). And the Lord Himself has instructed us to pray always that we are counted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass and to stand before him (Luke 21:36).

    Simply stated, while the post-trib on its face appears to be the most straightforward, it is fraught with inconsistencies, the greatest being that we would meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14) and then go right back down with him. He specifically says he will bring us to where HE IS, not halfway or back down to where we are.

    Study the Word from Genesis to Revelation, stop relying on the information from the world and ask God to show you the truth.

    May he bless you and keep you


    1. Dear Ian

      Shalom, and thanks for this comment.

      You wrote:

      it is fraught with inconsistencies, the greatest being that we would meet Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:14) and then go right back down with him.

      My reply:

      We are not going to go directly down to where we came from. We are all going to be gathered in the air, and will end up with Him in Jerusalem. That is quite a big difference from your statement.

      To think about millions of persecuted Christians being able to escape from their prisons and detention camps, and take the road and train to Jerusalem is quite unthinkable. But a rapture in front of our enemies, makes this kind of flight to met our Master in the air, less than fraud, and fare better than science fiction.

      1. First, it’s critical to remember that we are not saved by anything but grace alone thru faith alone in Jesus Christ alone (Eph. 2:8, John 14:6), not our eschatology and certainly not by what we call Jesus/Iesous as long as we call him Lord. Despite any differences we may have on eschatology, those of us in Christ are covered by the blood of the Lamb, and I thank God for that.

        Your biggest concern, as you stated, is that the modern church (especially in the USA) isn’t prepared for persecution. And while I get where that concern comes from, I’m sure you’ll agree that your feelings or mine have nothing to do with biblical eschatology.

        The Nat’l Day of Prayer canceled over the gospel’s “offense” to muslims. The White House covering up the cross for an Obama visit to Georgetown University. The “tolerance” for sodomites, pharmakia (drugs) and everything else but the narrow gate that is Christ. Persecution IS here and it’s only going to worsen. But that is not a valid scriptural argument against what’s called the pre-trib (really pre-70th week) harpazo.

        In all the back and forth in this debate, post-tribbers have never been able to adequately explain the Lord’s commands for us to watch and to pray and to strive to escape the most terrible time in human history. Either he meant it or he didn’t.

        “And when all these things BEGIN to come to pass, look up and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.” Luke 21:36

        Brethren, these things have begun some time ago; Jesus did not command us to look up for the antichrist draws near, or the tribulation draws near – he’s coming to redeem those whom has called from the iniquity of the flesh, a peculiar people zealous of good works.(Titus 2:14)

        Yes there are those who he will spit out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16), whom he will command to buy gold tried in the fire (Rev. 3:18); in fact, there’s sufficient evidence to suggest that not everyone who calls him Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom (Luke 6:46), much less be called to the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:9). But let us allow God to be God and lay those kinds of questions at his feet. His revelation is sufficient.

        I’ve been on all sides of this debate, and it wasn’t until I went into the prayer closet and asked the LORD to show me in His word what’s what that it all finally came together. Ultimately this question will be left in the dust of our eternity with Him, and so I just ask Lord that you bless all of us who read this article and comment thread with your wisdom and renewed zeal for your word.

        In the name of Jesus


      2. Dear Ian


        The question about the rapture exposes a “Church” that is not willing to be persecuted, and a Church that is persecuted. I am sure which of them, who is the real bride of Christ.

    2. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

      I do believe the above speaks of the rapture, but Rev. 17:14 says, “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.

      I believe that is when the Lord comes down with his faithful followers (us).

      But as Ivar stated, and I agree, justification by faith alone.

      Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

      God Bless.

  7. The passage people say describes a rapture says first the dead in christ will rise, then the living in Christ and they both meet in the air on their way to Christ. It’s written that “the dead sleep in their graves until the judgement day”. So, rapture is on the Judgement day.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15–17
    “[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”,

  8. Ed,

    As I stated above I do believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 speaks of the rapture.

    Your comment: So, rapture is on the Judgement day.

    My comment: I DO NOT believe the rapture will occur on the same day as judgment day.

    The Bible says in Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    That bible verse describes judgment day.

    1. God gets a lot done in a day. The rapture happens in the blink of an eye, clearly on the judgement day since “the dead sleep in their graves until the judgement day” Once the living in Christ are taken up and meet them in the air there is no reason to delay anything else. As described in the parable about the wheat. The farmer does not burn the chaffe for fear of damaging the wheat. So, Once the wheat is harvested all those things you describe on the judgement day can happen, the same day.

      1. Ed,

        If you do not see that the rapture, and judgment day are two seperate events (which they are) How do you explain then these two different bible verses that I listed above?

        1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


        Revelation 20:11-15

  9. Two things happening at the same time. Lets say you see him on his white throne in your minds eye, in a dream or vision. That makes sense because all eyes will see him both the living and the dead. If it was with the physical eyes the dead would have difficulties. Also on the same day things are happening in the physical world but I don’t think we will see corpses coming out of the ground.
    And I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens but I trust Jesus when he says we will like it, whatever he has in store for us.

    1. Ed,

      Those two bible verses are completely different.

      This is another bible verse on what I believed to be the rapture “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” (1 Corinthians 15:51)

      Because the bible verse uses “last” trumpet, it leads to some confusion (I think) with bible verse Rev. 11:15.

      Trumpet of God is mentioned elsewhere only in Exodus 19:13 & 19.

      Rev. 11:15 The 7th Trumpet is blown by an angel in Heaven, during the Great Tribulation, and is never called the last trumpet.

      But believers in Christ can speculate when things will happen. Such as the signs of the end times, which Jesus gave us in his word.

      Most importantly, is that we all be ready and stay ready (our hearts and spirtually) for our Lord Jesus Christ.

      God Bless.

      1. The doctrine of the pre Great tribulation rapture of “the Church” and her wedding fest in Heaven, while another Church is formed inside the Great Tribulation, does not make sense.

        I think it does make sense. Why would God keeps his flock down here to suffer. Not that I have amy problem unduring.

        Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

        Revelations 3:10

      2. Dear Richard.


        You wrote:

        Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

        Revelations 3:10

        My reply:

        Kindly explain to me, where in this verse you find evidence of a pre-trib rapture?

  10. Our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44).

    Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn’t be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring, the rapture and the second coming.

    In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a “he” that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer’s removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed.

    2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”

    The debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this “he” is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God’s Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being “taken out of the way” will only be a degree of removal.

    Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain “He” must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the “He” that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.

    In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior.Rev 19:19-21)

    When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He’s rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment.

    The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn’t fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they’ll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels.

    1. Dear Richard.


      I know the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, and I know the doctrine of a rapture further down inside the Great Tribulation.

      I have no problem to accept both the camps as my brothers and sisters in the Messiah. Even though, I have listen to fools who excommunicate people who do not agree with them on their doctrinal conviction.

      You wrote:

      The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma.

      My comment:

      If we are willing to bell the Pope as an anti-christ, there is no need for another. He just need to be invited to the “Holy land” as the “prince of peace”, by the JEWS.

      The Church do not hold back the Pope. The Church live is apostasy, and hail the Pope. Together with the UN.

      What holds back the Pope from going to Israel and set up his throne on the Temple Mount, is Zionist Jews.

      They need to be removed. When Zionist religious Jews gives up their claim to the Temple Mount, there will be only minor differences in Islam and Catholicism that needs to be sorted out, before the Pontiff can be elevated.

      Jesus explains to us, that there will be horrible times ahead. If the Church is going to be taken away in a rapture before the “mother of all troubles”, we must ask why Jesus said He would “shorted the days of horror, for the sake of the elect”.

      He do not have two groups of elects. Some pretty faces that do not want to be persecuted and beheaded, and some that will be martyred freely and gladly.

      Those who try to save their life, shall loose everything.

      1. Ivar, just waiting for my in-home nurse to come and treat myself to your site ..I usually do ..this time take heart dear brother, not even Jesus can convince some he meant Matthew 24, because their Big time Preachers has them drunk on anotber wine that feels good. .they can even quote scripture to deny wbat Jesus. said to make them appear right. .until they find out the hard way as many who defend tbeir way more ..faster than God’s Word.

      2. Dear Andrea

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Just read Matthew 24 in details today. All over again. I can not phantom how many preachers, can teach that the Church shall not be present inside the Great Tribulation. All what it take, off course, is to believe what is written.

    2. Ivar I’m glad you accept the rapture doctrine because I awoke this morning with an unsettled spirit at 2:00 am this morning. I also hope you dont discard me from your blog but if you feel it is a must so be it but I have to say the following.

      I am sorry but I have read, listened to and learned from TOO many great biblical scholars who believe in the pre tribulation rapture of the church over the past 20 years.

      Ivar I have been molded by the following men. They have kept me alive literally through the dark storms of my life.

      Men such as Dr John Walvoord, Dr David Jermemiah, Dr Mark Hitchock, Dr Billy Graham, Dr Jim Dixon, Dr Jack Van Impe, Author Joel Rosenberg, Pastor Raul Ries, Pastor Allistar Bagg, Pastor J Vernon McGee, Dr Jimmy De Young, Author John McTernan, Author Grant Jeffries, Author Hank Hangegraff, Pastor Chuck Swindoll, Coach Bill McCartney and Dr John Hagee.

      Im sure you have issues with several of these men but I have to stand by them.

      These are Spirit Filled, Christ loving men most of which who have their Phd’s who know scripture by memorization. I know nothing of your spiritual knowledge or training. Where does your knowledge come from? Are you schooled?

      Im just sorry but I dont believe that these GREAT BIBLICAL MEN are ALL Wrong.

      Lastly We both Love the same master. We just have differing opinions. I still love you though!

      Ivar I love the movie Jesus of Nazareth. I often contemplate what I will say to Jesus when I first see him. In the scene of Parable of the Prodical Son, Peter says to Jesus “Forgive Me Master I’m just a Stupid Man” I cant find scripture to back this line and I am NO PETER but I imagine those being the first words out of my mouth followed by “Can You Forgive Me I Love You So Much!”

      Lastly I hope I’m right and you are wrong because I long to be with OUR Master today!

      1. Dear Richard.


        You wrote:

        Lastly I hope I’m right and you are wrong because I long to be with OUR Master today!

        My reply:

        This was a strange comment. Because if one of us are beheaded today, we do not have to wait for the rapture.

        I do believe in the rapture. But I also believe that evangelical Christians will be badly persecuted, and many of them will be martyred.

        Through the ages, the great revivals have always come when true Christians have been willing to be martyred. Today’s Christians in the western World might not be able to give this kind of sacrifice. Because their pastors have deceived them with the false prosperity gospel, and all kind of corrupted messages.

        I also long to be with my Master today. I am willing to give the ultimate sacrifice at any moment. It will be a pleasure to depart, refusing to renounce my faith in Jesus my Lord. Let my head role. They can surely kill my body, but my soul belongs to the King of Kings. Amen.

      2. Ivar I have no problem being marytred or having my head cut off if my interpreation of scripture is in correct and if I am to go through the tribulation. In fact my prophecy friends joke at least martyrs will receive rewards in heaven according to Matthew 5:12.

        I pray about it all of the time, that God will give me strength to endure what could be coming.

        The United States has built FEMA camps and the president already has an executive order in place to start martial law today if he wanted to.

        In additions Christians according to Heomeland security are considered terrorists now.

        The US is about to pass several new laws that in my opinion are ripe for the collection of christians; Law NDAA S.1867 and a new law in the senate controlling internet free speech.

        A Martial Law advert that ran this week opposing Obama’s wholy unconstitutional NDAA S.1867 Bi compareding FEMA camps in America to Germans Killing Camps during the World Wars.

        Ivar it is my belief that there will be pre triublation rapture of the church but if I’m wrong I seek the strength to endure.

        It is also my belief that many will come to christ during the tribulation of the church.
        Millions of those christians and millions of Jews will be martyred during tribulation period.

        You are right though the christian community in general has no clue what is about to come.

        It is my opinion that “The Church” in America or American Pastors are generally NOT preaching about prophecy or the book of revelations. The majority of churches are focused on a feel good “Joel Osteen” message.

        My pastor in Denver Dr Jim Dixon of Cherry Hills Community Church does not. In fact he wrote a book on end times. I would be glad to get you a copy and send it to you.

        Dr Dixon speaks of a belief in a pre tribulation ratptor but he goes on to say that all positions could be right and that there is no guarantee of any of the positions being right so we must all put on the breastplate and be ready for what ever comes our way.


      3. Dear Richard.

        Sabbath Shalom.

        You wrote:

        Ivar it is my belief that there will be pre triublation rapture of the church, but if I’m wrong I seek the strength to endure.

        My reply:

        This was the attitude of the martyrs in the first century. And this will be the attitude of true Christians, as we approach the end of the age. Paul believed the return of Jesus was imminent. He lived as the Lord could come anytime, and was ready to depart, and forever be in the presence of His Lord. We do not know for sure what type of exit He got. But many scholars believe Paul was beheaded in Rome.

      4. Hello Richard
        Peace to you
        Sadly your theology and escatology has been shaped by
        the so called learned theologians of the day.
        My advice to you is to dispose of all their books, commentaries
        study bibles and start all over again. Resolve to learn again only from the Holy spirit. Just read the bible only and let the one who wrote the word of God speak to you. Read it over and over and over, and over… Read it slow. Read every word. Put yourself in the context. Use inflection and expression when you read it.
        You’ll be surprised at what you learn. I have heard everyone of the men you mentioned. They are all dispensationalist. They have all been trained by the same teaching.
        Do not make the same mistakes that the Israelites did by listening to their blind guides. Unbelief causes blindness. Many of these men are blind to the truth. They all can speak a very convincing message. They are sincere, but often sincerely wrong. I was taught pre trib rapture all my life and believed it. But then I read the bible. Its not their. Thats a fabrication. Read the bible only my friend. Read the bible only. One with no notes
        that are written by men. Just read the bible
        Peace my friend and brother

  11. The Church does not hold back the pope? What church are you referring to?

    So are you saying that second coming will be the first time we see christ?

    I’ll be honest I know were good friends but the rapture debate does one thing. It separates christians. The debate in my opinion is what satan wants.

    Personally I hope the rapture is today. I believe there is solid proof for it but if it doesnt come, Im fine to.

    In addition the rapture discussion does nothing to bring people to christ.

    In my opinion it also does nothing from a descernment perspective.

    I dont think God is concerned whether we believe in a pre mid or post.

    1. Dear Richard.


      When I talk about the Church hailing the “Pope”, I talk about the Global Apostate Church. There are one billion Catholics and 500 million protestants in the World Council of Churches (WCC), who see the Pope as a great Christian leader. Only a minority of Christians are willing to bell the Papacy.

      You wrote:

      So are you saying that second coming will be the first time we see christ?

      My reply:

      Not at all. I say that in the Pope we already have an anti-Christ. So we can not be taken away in a rapture, before the anti-Christ comes. He is already here.

      But we can very much start to hail and support the anti-Christ, since He is already revealed. That is a spiritual disaster.

      The false Church will not stop the Pope from being lifted into Jerusalem as a false “Prince of peace”.

      Only committed Christians and Zionist Jews do not want to surrender East Jerusalem to the forces of darkness. THEY are holding back the forces of lawlessness, and the coming of the final anti-Christ to Jerusalem.

      I hope this made my understanding of the rapture and the anti-Christ more clear.

      1. Actually you didnt make your point or answer my questions?

        There is NO Guarantee that the POPE is or within the POPE is the antichrist? What confirmation do have? NONE? Just Possibilities. The Antichrist will anounce himself and the POPE hasnt done that?

        East Jerusalem? If the war of Psalm 83 starts tomorrow we KNOW from scripture that Israel will INHERIT large amounts of LAND so whats with East Jerusalem?

      2. Dear Richard.


        You wrote:

        There is NO Guarantee that the POPE is or within the POPE is the antichrist? What confirmation do have? NONE? Just Possibilities. The Antichrist will anounce himself and the POPE hasnt done that?

        my comment:

        All the reformers of the Church, belled the pope as an anti-Christ. Today’s pastors and priests stands clueless. Many of them hail the Pope, and have put them selves up for judgment. The replacement “Holy Father” is the man of lawlessness. We do not have to wait for another.

      3. Dear Richard.


        You asked:

        The Antichrist will anounce himself and the POPE hasnt done that?

        My comment:

        1. The Antichrist will not come and say: I am the antichrist. He will claim to be “god” or like “god”.

        2. The Antichrist will be a global ruler. The Pope is already a global ruler. He has Bishops, priests and followers in all nations, and in almost every village. There are 180 ambassadors who hail the “Holy see” in the Vatican.

        3. The Antichrist will claim to be “god”. The Pope do that. His name is the name of God, “The Holy Father”. The Pope also is claimed to be like God, infallible in the matters of understanding the scripture and moral.

        4. The antichrist will say things unheard of. The Pope has made dozens of dogmas that contradict the scripture.

        I could make this list long as a nightmare.

        If you can not see the anti-Christ in the Papacy, you will never find him. Because He will not come and say, Hi guy’s I am Lucifer, come follow me”.

      4. This is typically where most rapture debates end. You have your opinion I have mine. Again I just think the rapture debate only separates the church because there is no 100% biblical proof of a pre mid or post rapture. There are valid biblical points from all persepctives.

        Do you have any blogs on your East Jersulem Theory you point me to?

        I appreciate your communication. Its always good to think.

      5. Dear Richard.


        I started the last debate with you, by calling you a brother. I do not ex-communicate people who do feel the Church will be taken a way in a rapture, before the “mother of all troubles” take place.

        East Jerusalem is the mother of all targets in the World. Because that is the location of the Temple Mount. God the Holy Spirit has ruled from this site. Both the Jewish temples stood her.

        Jesus has walked on this site.

        Islam captured this site, and claimed an Arab called Muhammad ascended into Heaven from this site.

        The Pope’s cruisader’s kicked the Muslims out from this site, and created a Roman Catholic Kingdom for 200 years. Only to be kicked out by Islam later down the bloodshed.

        The British colony captured this site in 1917, and liberated it from Islam. Only to see the Islamic forces back again in 1948.

        The Jews finally liberated the Temple Mount in 1967, only to give it back to Islam…(…..Absolutely incredible) a few days later. (The Jews blew their best chance to build the third Jewish temple).

        Now the final Anti Christ is waiting to be welcomed by Jews, Catholics and Muslims to this site. He will be invited as the “Prince of peace”, who made peace in the Middle East. He will set up his throne on the Temple Mount, and claim to be “The Holy Father”. “god in the flesh”. There will be no end to his blasphemies.

        Those who do not submit to his authority, will be branded as dangerous members of “cults”. They will be called the very enemies of peace. They will be rounded up, detained and BEHEADED. Islam has 1.300 years of experience of killing and slaughter people they disagree with. The whore of Babylon that rules in the Vatican is drunk on the blood of the Saints.

        The Messiah will return to the Temple Mount in East Jerusalem. He will make a touch down on the Mount of Olives, and kill the final anti-Chrst with the very splendor of his coming. The throne of King Messiah will be set up at the same location as the Holy Spirit reigned thousands of years back. Than, the MESSIANIC AGE has arrived.

        Those who have been BEHEADED will come back to life, and reign with Jesus for 1.000 years.

        Revelation 20:4

        I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

      6. Ivar it will take me time to digest your comments and truly think about them. Do you have any books or recommendations that I might read that endorse your opinions?

        I have longed for the rapture for years. The thought of it has truly has given me hope.

        What are your thoughts about 2nd Timothy and Crown of Righteousness?

        I didnt mean to say you werent preaching the gospel or the great commision. You have become a mentor to me and your comments devastated me. I just feel let down to be honest.









    1. Dear Richard.


      The great commission is to preach the gospel to all nations. I guess we both do that?

      To rebuke people who pervert the gospel, or preaches a different gospel, is also a part of what we are called to do. If we let the wolfs bark and bite without rebuking them, we have become comfortably numb and corrupt.

      Not on my watch.

      1. IVAR,

        Please do not stop.


        As recently as August of 2011, I came “to know the Lord” for the first time in my long devout catholic life; & Ivar’s page has
        been hugely instrumental in educating me. Those of us who are/were devout children of RCC need to see w/ our own eyes & hear w/ our own ears of how RCC is not lining up with the Word of God. It is not an easy task to leave RCC. So we must not forget those in RCC who will need these articles to judge for themselves & allow them to have the courage to come out.

        To IVAR & your editors: do not stop. Keep being that voice in the desert which calls out: “a voice of one calling in the desert,
        ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
        make straight paths for him.’ ” (Mark 1:3). Catholics do not have a straight path to the Lord. They have to jump thru hoops & climb ladders & gain access thru all kinds of man-made teachings which leads them sadly to great oppression.

        Steady. Forward. Keep posting. There are many more who will come to this site & come to know the Lord!

      2. Correct there is always a need to rebuke but there is no valid 100% biblical answer for or against the rapture. So how do you rebuke it with the feeling or knowledge that your perspective is 100% biblical or 100% from God?

        When I speak to people about christ and talk about the rapture I speak of the hope and possibility of a pre tribulation rapture.

        A more appropriate blog man have been to disguss the three positions of the rapture followed by Matthew 6. 25-34 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
        28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

        In addition to 1 Thessalonians 5:8
        But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

        and Ephesians 6:13
        Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

        Last question. So do you attribute 2nd Timothy 4:8 to the second coming only?

  13. An article by Jack Kinsella makes it clear that the Tribulation is the time of ‘Jacob’s Trouble’ – Daniel’s 70th Week. It is reserved for ISRAEL and NOT THE CHURCH.


    In the book of Daniel 9:24, Daniel was told by an angel specially that the TRIBULATION period was for Daniel’s people (JEWS) and Daniel’s holy city (JERUSALEM):

    “Seventy weeks are determined upon THY PEOPLE and upon THEY HOLY CITY to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

    In this verse we see a complete outline of Israel’s future history, broken into subdivisions of time with a six-fold purpose:

    1. First, to finish ISRAEL’S transgression – the rejection of the Messiah at the First Advent.

    2. Second, an end will be made of ISRAEL’S sins.

    3. Third, reconciliation will be made for ISRAEL’S iniquity.

    4. Forth, everlasting righteousness will be introduced to ISRAEL.

    5. Fifth, ISRAEL’S Scriptures will be vindicated by the fulfillment of all prophecy .

    6. Sixth, Christ’s returns at the conclusion of the war of Armageddon, at which time He will be anointed and will take His seat on the THRONE OF DAVID.

    This is a time of judgment against ISRAEL and the GENTILE world (Earth-Dwellers) and not the church. THE CHURCH WAS ALREADY JUDGED AT THE CROSS.

    Daniel indicates the Tribulation Period is for ISRAEL’S national redemption. That theme is picked up by Zechariah 12-14:

    “A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning ISRAEL. “I am going to make JERUSALEM a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock.”

    “And I will pour out on the HOUSE OF DAVID and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

    “On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.”

    “On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the LORD Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land.”

    Jeremiah also says that the tribulation is a time of JACOB’S TROUBLE:

    “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of JACOB’S TROUBLE, but he shall be saved out of it.” (Jeremiah 30:7)

    Clearly, since the Tribulation period is the time of JACOB’S TROUBLE, and was pronounced upon DANIEL’S PEOPLE AND DANIEL’S CITY. Its purpose is to accomplish for Daniel’s people in the last days the same thing that was accomplished for the CHURCH on the cross.


    If there is a purpose for the Church in the Tribulation Period, there is NO MENTION of that purpose in Scripture — although Scripture is clear regarding both Jews and ‘earth-dwellers’. And the ‘earth dwellers’ CAN’T BE THE CHURCH, since their names are not written in the Book of Life.

    1 Thessalonians 1:8-10, specifically at verse 10 says:

    “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME.” (The church is not appointed to wrath.)

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 says:

    “For when THEY shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon THEM, as travail upon a woman with child; and THEY shall not escape.” (Note the pronouns ‘they’ and ‘them’)

    “Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: WE are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let US not sleep, as do others; but let US watch and be sober.” (Note the change — ‘they’- ‘them’ become ‘we’- ‘us’.)

    “For THEY that sleep in the night; and THEY that be drunken are drunken in the night.”

    “But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.”

    There is clearly a distinction between Jews, ‘earth-dwellers’ and ‘us’ — the Church.

    Verse 8 references ‘the hope of salvation’. What does that mean — ‘hope’ of salvation? Salvation from what? My salvation comes with an iron-clad guarantee, signed in Blood. I don’t ‘hope’ for salvation — I am saved now.

    Clearly, taken in context, the ‘hope of salvation’ referenced by Paul can’t be salvation from hell.

    But salvation from the ‘wrath to come’ is indicated by the context and consistent with the doctrine that says “I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them from my hand.” (John 10:28)

    What did Jesus say about His coming? He said, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36).

    Clearly, He could not have been speaking of the same event (THE SECOND COMING) that could be so easily calculated. Is this a contradiction?

    According to 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4, there is a secret return of Christ, the one of which Jesus spoke.

    Paul writes, “For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    This secret Advent, in which the Lord comes for His Church in the air, is NOT THE SAME event as the one in which He puts His foot upon the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two (Zechariah 14:4).


    Paul is referring to what is commonly called the Rapture of the Church. Since this secret Advent’s timing cannot, according to Jesus, be calculated, it CANNOT be the same event as the Second Coming. That Triumphant Return can be calculated precisely when the antichrist appears. Hence, the pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church is consistent with Scripture.

  14. tribulation and wrath are not the same in the dictionary look it up, so i belive we are going to be persecuted if we still alive until the lawlessnes men is revealed.

  15. also if the last trumpet is around tribulation then that is your answer.i dont know but i thought the coming of the lord is when the lawlessnes be reveal, and that is what i care of cause after that happens i be with the lord forever. i think we need to be prepare cause when opression comes you dont want to be shock and say that you thought that christ was suppose to come already. i dont believe in pre tribulation rapture cause the antichrist need to be reveal first before that happens and from what we read in the bible that is tribulation period. i read it againg and againg but that pretty clear to me about the coming of the lord in thessalonians.

  16. Ivar,

    Please check this out!

    [video src="" /]

    God bless you Ivar!

  17. pre trib is a dangerous deception from hell!

    We hve got to warn our siblings about this heresy!

    We need to prepare our selves: there will be tribulation. Shalm from Tuovi

  18. Ivar, I love your honesty. Personally, I dont know for sure when the rapture occurs…..I was formerly pre-trib, but now, not so much.

    My latest thinking is the rapture is pre-wrath, as defined by the opening of the seventh seal. I believe the rapture occurs after the 6th seal, which sounds like a limited nuclear war, and is forecast using the same type of language in Isaiah 2. The vision of the sky splitting open like a scroll, sounds like a mushroom cloud to me, and then the leaders of the earth and men everywhere hide in caves, clefts and rocks to get away from……radiation?

    After this calamity in Rev 6, we have a pause, the 144,000 Jews are sealed, and people from every “ethnos” appear before the throne, having “come out of the Great Tribulation” as described by the heavenly elder to John. This happens during the tribulation, because they “came out” of it, but, before the great wrath which follows the opening of the 7th seal.

    The events of the 6th seal “might” be something like Israel bombing Iran, possibly leading to a limited nuclear attack, which would galvanize the nations against Israel, setting the stage for the final events, leading up to Messiah’s return before mankind completely destroys itself

  19. Dear Ivar:

    To understand the clarity of the rapture, one needs to understand the prophet Daniels 70 weeks of historical and future time foretold.
    Daniel 9:24-27

    Then after knowing this, our rapture becomes evident.

    Even more so because of this;

    May God bless you!


  20. Like it says in,

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    “the dead in Christ”

  21. I must stick to the Holy Bible and forget what man/woman who gives their interpretation of scripture..I look at the rapture this way: what ever,it’s not like we have a choice here. kinda like whatever…

    today hearing the garbage ministers are trying to spread as God’s word is sickening and collect big bucks for their misinformation ia a wee tooo much…for this one…
    I do not know why believers in Christ let this belief of pre-trib,mid-trib,post-trib get to them so much none should not allow division a foothold..

  22. How many first ressurections are there? Like it says in,

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Is there a ressurection of the dead in Christ before the “first ressurection”?

  23. Okay Dave, I’ll take a crack at it. 🙂 Is this a trick question? Jesus was, of course, the very first Resurrection. I don’t subscribe to it but I have seen some suggest that there are a total of seven resurrections.

    1.) Jesus’ Resurrection

    2.) The dead in Christ Raptured

    3.) Those who are Raptured still alive

    4.) The First of the Tribulation saints

    5. The Two Witnesses

    6.) The Last of the Tribulation saints

    7.) The Unrighteous Dead

    This seems to be unnecessary hair-splitting to me. Besides, the Second Resurrection definitely seems to be indicating the resurrection of the unrighteous dead for them to stand trial at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    1. Dear Ellen,

      I wanted to add a few more resurrections to this:


      2. Enoch

      3. Old testament saints that were resurrected with Jesus

      4. 144,000 Jewish evangelists

      1. Gee, JM–you would be upsetting to those who like their nice neat number 7s! 😀

      2. Seriously, you may be right. However, some would say that Elijah and Enoch were not resurrected because they will be brought back in their mortal bodies at some point. Not sure how they arrive at that—maybe from some Jewish teachings. A number of people believe that they will be the Two Witnesses—Elijah representing Israel, and Enoch representing Gentile believers.

        Those who were brought up out of the grave with Jesus are something of a mystery, aren’t they? Were they merely resuscitated (like most believe Lazarus was) or were they actually resurrected?

        Many feel that the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will be those who are left in their mortal bodies to receive the promised Millennial Kingdom. You’d have to point out to me where it says that they are resurrected.

        There is also the resurrection (?) of those who die during the Millennium (there will be some death—though apparently greatly reduced).

      3. Dear Ellen,

        You said:

        Seriously, you may be right. However, some would say that Elijah and Enoch were not resurrected because they will be brought back in their mortal bodies at some point. Not sure how they arrive at that—maybe from some Jewish teachings. A number of people believe that they will be the Two Witnesses—Elijah representing Israel, and Enoch representing Gentile believers.

        My reply:

        Interesting point. I’m glad you brought this up because I stand corrected. There is no record of anyone ever going bodily to Heaven into the presence of God until AFTER the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

        Elijah and Enoch were not raptured and both experienced natural death. The Bible says that Enoch died, “these all died in faith” (Heb. 11:13 ). Elijah was removed from one place to another on earth, but he was not “taken to heaven”. The whirlwind carried Elijah to some other “place”. When Jehoram began to reign after Elijah was “caught up”, Elijah later wrote him a letter — so he had to be still on earth (2 Chron. 21:12).

        Jesus said, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven. Even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13).

        In John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 it is mentioned twice. “No man hath seen God at anytime.”

        Hebrews 9:27 says, “It is appointed unto men to die.”

        Good point about Elijah representing Israel and Enoch representing Gentile believers as the Two Witnesses. The Bible says of Enoch, “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death: and was not found, because God has translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God” (Heb 11:5). (Sounds like a type of Bride to me.)

        Click to access Elijah_and_Enoch.pdf

        You said:

        Those who were brought up out of the grave with Jesus are something of a mystery, aren’t they? Were they merely resuscitated (like most believe Lazarus was) or were they actually resurrected?

        My reply:

        I can only speculate. It seems as if they were resurrected and have received their glorified bodies already, ahead of the Bride. This may be the group that is seen in Rev. 4.4. “Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.”

        You said:

        Many feel that the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will be those who are left in their mortal bodies to receive the promised Millennial Kingdom. You’d have to point out to me where it says that they are resurrected.

        My reply:

        I believe that this group will be the first to be raptured after the Bride and will be part of the Bride as it says in Rev. 14:1 “Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

        Rev. 14:4 says that these are they which were not defiled, which follow the Lamb wherever He goes, these are they which were REDEEMED from among men FROM THE EARTH (which means that Mount Zion is heavenly, as opposed to the earthly Mount Zion) and being offered as the *firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. (*Firstfruits must be the Bride.)

        You said:

        There is also the resurrection (?) of those who die during the Millennium (there will be some death—though apparently greatly reduced).

        My reply:

        I’m not positive on how many raptures there will be. Feel free to correct:

        1. Bride of Christ

        2. 144,00 and Two Witnesses (We will part of the Bride)

        3. Tribulation Martyrs

        The Tribulation Saints who survive will go into the Millennial kingdom.

        Hope you are having a great day! 🙂

  24. Hi JM,

    You said: “Elijah and Enoch were not raptured and both experienced natural death. The Bible says that Enoch died, “these all died in faith” (Heb. 11:13 ). Elijah was removed from one place to another on earth, but he was not “taken to heaven”. The whirlwind carried Elijah to some other “place”. When Jehoram began to reign after Elijah was “caught up”, Elijah later wrote him a letter — so he had to be still on earth (2 Chron. 21:12).”

    Fascinating subject. What is interesting is that the same words are used to describe what happened to both Enoch and Elijah. They mean “transported”. (By the way, it says in Hebrews 11:5 that Enoch “did not see death”). Wouldn’t it be interesting if they both were being kept somewhere on the earth, alive and well until it is time for them to enter back into human history? The Jews have always expected that Elijah would return to them before the “great and terrible day of the Lord.” as promised in Malachi 4:5. At their Passover seders, they open the front door and invite Elijah in and set a cup of wine on the table that is known as “Elijah’s Cup”. One more thing to ponder is that both Elijah and Moses came to meet with Jesus at the Transfiguration. They couldn’t have been in resurrected bodies because we know that Jesus was the first to be resurrected. Were they both in revived bodies? Another interesting clue is the youthfulness of Moses body at his death. Did God intend to preserve Moses’ mortal body after he appeared to die to his people. Is that why the Archangel Michael had to contend with Satan over the body of Moses? Interesting questions, no?

    You said: “I believe that this group will be the first to be raptured after the Bride and will be part of the Bride as it says in Rev. 14:1
    ‘Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.’ ”

    But it doesn’t say whether they are in their mortal bodies or their immortal bodies, does it?

    You said: “Rev. 14:4 says that these are they which were not defiled, which follow the Lamb wherever He goes, these are they which were REDEEMED from among men FROM THE EARTH (which means that Mount Zion is heavenly, as opposed to the earthly Mount Zion) and being offered as the *firstfruits unto God
    and to the Lamb. (*Firstfruits must be the Bride.)”

    Not sure the REDEEMED there means resurrected–but rather elected for special service. And I think it is the earthly Mount Zion that is being referred to, because in 14:2, John says that he “…heard a sound from heaven…” The scenes in chapter 14 seem to switch back and forth between the earthly Jerusalem and heaven. Starting in verse 6, John is describing the scene on earth as the angel is preaching the gospel to “…the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language and people.”

    Hope you are having a good evening!


  25. Hi JM,

    You said: “It goes against scripture to say that Enoch and Elijah did not see natural death.”

    Yet Hebrews 11:5 certainly asserts that Enoch at least, “…did not see death…”

    If Enoch didn’t die—where is he? So many questions!

    Anyway—thanks for the interesting discussion. 🙂

  26. A quick study of John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren will soon reveal the truth of where the pre-trib rapture comes from and how it spread with Scofield and the Scofield Bible. Before about 1830 there was little to no teachings on dispensationalism or pre-trib rapture. The influence it still has on the church is a shame. I cannot believe people fall for it, but it is easy to be fooled because Christians do not study the Bible, doctrin is meaningless to so many, very few really know the history of the church or even the reformation. May God show Truth to those who truly ask for wisdom.

  27. Hi Interested,

    You are correct that the formal teaching of Dispensationalism is relatively recent but the teaching of the pre-trib rapture goes way back to the early church. Irenaeus, in the 2nd century, made statements that indicated that he believed in segments of time in redemption history and also that he believed in the pre-trib rapture. Justin Martyr (in roughly the same time period) also indicated that he believed in segmented redemption history and a pre-trib rapture. They also believed that God would ultimately provide a literal, earthly Kingdom to a reborn nation of Israel.

    When the RCC began to dominate, those teachings were dropped because they worked against the RCC stand that the RCC replaced Israel in God’s sight.

    You said: “I cannot believe people fall for it, but it is easy to be fooled because Christians do not study the Bible, doctrine is meaningless to so many, very few really know the history of the church or even the reformation.”

    It is precisely because those Christians DO study the Bible that they form these teachings. Doctrine should be merely a distillation of what the Bible actually teaches—not some fabricated, self-serving pack of RCC lies. The RCC tells many lies about the Reformation—which would you like to discuss?

    1. p.s. Morgan Edwards, a Baptist preacher in the 1740s taught a pre-trib rapture based on his study of Scripture.

  28. Prewrath Rapture

    Hunt, Dave

    This is the time of year when the world publicizes the birth of our Lord—but mostly in order to make merchandise of Him. Christmas is big business, generally promoted by godless merchants whose only interest is in using the occasion to make a profit. One day they will stand before the Christ of Christmas as their Judge.

    Rather than pointing the finger at others, however, each of us ought to examine carefully his own heart. Are we, too, attempting to use Christ for our own ends? Do we embrace Him merely as an escape from hell to heaven while basically living for self? Or are we truly eager for His will to be “done on earth as in heaven,” beginning with complete submission of ourselves to Him in everything?

    Let this Christmas season be a solemn reminder that the One who was born in Bethlehem is soon to return to this earth in power and great glory to execute judgment. First, however, He will take His own to His Father’s house of “many mansions,” where “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ” (2 Cor:5:10). Then will come that heavenly marriage and honeymoon. We could be caught up at any moment to meet Him in the air. That “blessed hope” causes this earth to lose its attraction, purifies our lives and motivates us to win the lost because we believe the time is short.

    Our removal from earth to heaven in the Rapture will allow the Antichrist to be revealed to rule over the revived Roman Empire. It has been exciting to see the worldwide dimensions of that “last days” kingdom begin to take shape. We have noted that the collapse of communism opened the door for the fulfillment of a dream first voiced by Gorbachev and the Pope: a United Europe extending “from the Atlantic to the Urals.” From that base of power a “new world order” will emerge—a concept long ridiculed as Utopian nonsense but now accepted and even taken for granted. Talk of a new world order now falls naturally from the lips of President Bush and other world leaders, who seem unaware that their brave new world will be ruled by the Antichrist.

    Plans call for earth’s division into ten regions (the “ten toes” of Nebuchadnezzar’s image signifying the revived Roman Empire), each with its own security council and a strategic strike force for maintaining peace and preventing a recurrence of events similar to Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait. Thus, the stage is being set for the fulfillment of an amazing prophecy: “And in the days of these kings [represented by the ten toes] shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed…it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms” (Dan:2:44).

    Christ’s birth in Bethlehem came at the precise time God had planned (Gal:4:4) and, like His death, was initially related to the Roman Empire. Likewise the revelation of the Antichrist will be at a pre-ordained time (2 Thes:2:6) and will require the presence of the revived Roman Empire. (See TBC July 90 for details of the fascinating link between Christ, Antichrist and the Roman Empire in relation to the timing of His second coming.) It is only fitting that the evil Empire which crucified Christ should be revived so that He can destroy it at His second coming.

    We have previously given numerous reasons why the church must be raptured at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period. Once the dominant belief among evangelicals, the pretrib Rapture is falling increasingly into disfavor. The latest attack upon this belief is found in Marvin Rosenthal’s book The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church: A New Understanding of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Second Coming . This book’s novel ideas cannot be supported by Scripture, and Rosenthal’s attempts to do so create numerous contradictions. Nevertheless, we have received so many letters asking about the book from people who were swayed by it that a brief critique seems necessary.

    Rosenthal, long a confirmed pretribulationalist, has abandoned that position and “now believes that the Church will have to endure the persecution of the Antichrist.” His basic thesis is that the church will ” not escape all of the oppression of the ‘Tribulation’ period,” but “will escape the wrath of God, which will be poured out…during the second half of the ‘Tribulation’ period.”

    Numerous problems immediately arise. Since the Antichrist, according to Rosenthal, must appear first, the church is no longer watching and waiting for Christ but for Antichrist. Moreover, even after the Antichrist takes control of the earth the church cannot look for Christ until she has suffered considerably under that “Wicked” one. Yet the early church was definitely watching for her Lord, not for Antichrist: “From whence [heaven] also we look for the Saviour” (Philippians 3:20); and to wait for his Son from heaven” (1 Thes:1:10); “and unto them that look for him shall he appear” (Heb:9:28), etc. If Rosenthal is correct, then one can no longer expect Christ at any moment. Imminency has been lost, and with it the “blessed hope” that sustained believers for centuries.

    If the church must remain on earth to face Antichrist, then Christians would refuse to take his mark or worship his image. As a result, they would all be put to death. We are told,

    And it was given unto him [Antichrist] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them…and he [the false prophet] had power to…cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed…And that no man might buy or sell, save [except] he that had the mark…of the beast…(Rev:13:7;15-18).

    Clearly the church, Christ’s bride, must have been removed, for the Antichrist could not make war with and overcome her against whom our Lord said “the gates of hell shall not prevail” (Mt 16:18). Then who are these “saints”? They can only be those who have not come under the strong delusion (2 Thes:2:10-12

    ) because they previously never heard and rejected the gospel. Millions will believe in Christ during the Great Tribulation and they will pay for their newfound faith with their lives. John tells us,

    After this I beheld…[in heaven] a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues…before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes….

    These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev:7:9,14).

    A “prewrath rapture” would hardly be a “blessed hope.” In fact, it would be a non-event, for there would be few if any Christians left alive to rapture at that time. Could any Christian take Antichrist’s mark and thus survive to be raptured? Indeed not! Revelation:14:9-10

    makes it clear that those who “worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark” will be consigned to hell.

    In building his unbiblical thesis, Rosenthal falls into a number of other errors. He insists that 2 Peter:3:10-11

    “is not talking of total annihilation of the earth” because Peter earlier said that the world of Noah’s day perished, yet it was not totally annihilated. The analogy fails, for Peter includes in the future judgment the heavens , which he specifically says “shall pass away with a great noise” while the very elements of which all is composed “shall melt with fervent heat.” It certainly sounds like the destruction of the entire universe, during which “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” In its place, God will create a “new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (v 13). It is gross error to interpret specific language calling for the complete consumption by fire of the entire universe as merely a surface cleansing of the earth because that was what happened at the flood. He also suggests that this “cleansing of the earth” will take place before the Millennium, whereas Revelation 21 clearly places it at the end of the Millennium.

    Rosenthal goes to the noncanonical Book of Maccabees to try to prove that the “falling away” that Paul refers to in 2 Thessalonians:2:3 is a Jewish apostasy and has nothing to do with the church. Yet Paul is writing to Christians, not to Jews. He has already given warning many times about the coming “falling away,” as have Peter and Jude. They repeatedly refer to apostasy among professing Christians. The writer to the Hebrews deals with the same theme in Chapter 6. To suggest that because the Book of Maccabees refers to a Jewish apostasy, this is then what Paul is talking about, is insupportable. Most of those whom Paul was addressing at Thessalonica were converted Greeks who would have no reason to associate “apostasy” with an incident in Jewish history involving Antiochus Epiphanes, a story they probably didn’t even know. Moreover, Israel was already in apostasy when Paul was writing: she had rejected and crucified her Messiah and was persecuting Christians. So to suggest that Paul is declaring that some future apostasy is coming to an already apostate and unbelieving Israel is illogical.

    One error leads to another. The author asserts that signing the pact with the Antichrist “will be Israel’s great apostasy” (pp 205-207). That an already spiritually apostate Israel would be going into apostasy by signing a political/military pact with the world ruler again makes no sense. Moreover, Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thes:2:3). To avoid the obvious contradiction of having Israel sign a pact with Antichrist before he’s been revealed, Rosenthal proposes a new meaning for “revealed.” He says that it doesn’t mean when Antichrist steps from obscurity into power, but when he puts his image in the temple and Israel recognizes that he is the Antichrist. Yet Paul says that the Antichrist will be revealed not through the placing of his image in the temple, but when ” He who now letteth [hinders) [i.e., the Holy Spirit in Christians]…be taken out of the way…” (2 Thes:2:7-8


    Rosenthal’s further explanation only increases the confusion: “Speaking of that future day when the Antichrist will seek to get the Jews to bow to his image and many will refuse, the Lord said, ‘Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you; and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake’ (Mat:24:9).” How could apostate Jews who have rejected Christ be hated of all nations for Christ’s name’s sake?! It is one thing to recognize that the Antichrist is evil, and something else entirely to believe that Jesus is the Christ. That will only happen to Israel when He appears to rescue her at Armageddon (Zech:12:10).

    Rosenthal suggests that “the Antichrist is a man who lived before….He will literally be raised from the dead” (p 208). In fact, he suggests that this man ruled an ancient kingdom that impacted Israel, so he has been dead for at least 2,500 years. Marvin tries to prove this “resurrection” from the scripture which says, “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death” (Rev:13:3). Now, to recover from what seemed to John “as though it were” a mortal wound is a far cry from bringing back to life a totally decomposed 2,500-year-old corpse! He then uses the same scripture to say that this man will suffer a mortal head wound in the middle of the seven-year pact with Israel and be raised from the dead. By what rule of exegesis does one prove two contradictory theories from the same scripture? Lack of space prevents dealing with the many other errors in The Pre – Wrath Rapture.

    Christ’s repeated warnings that He would come at a time when one would least expect Him (Mat:24:44; Lk 12:40; 21:34-36) cannot be reconciled with Rosenthal’s thesis. Surely as Antichrist’s persecution and slaughter of the church proceeded, the dwindling number of surviving Christians would long for and expect the Rapture. Yet Christ depicted conditions upon earth during the last moments before the catching away of His bride as a time of such ease and boredom that “While the bridegroom tarried, they all [even the five “wise” virgins] slumbered and slept” (Mat:25:5). Either Christ was mistaken or Rosenthal is.

    Even though God’s wrath had not yet been poured out, a church that was enduring Antichrist’s wrath, involving the most vicious persecution and slaughter of Christians in history, would not be sleeping any more than a church that found itself in the midst of Armageddon! Rosenthal’s prewrath theory thus suffers from the same contradictions as a “post-trib” Rapture.
    Much of the Christmas scene promotes false concepts that will help Antichrist pretend to be “Christ.” The promise of “peace on earth” announced by the angels at the birth of Christ will not be realized until He personally reigns from David’s throne in Jerusalem, as the prophets foretold. Be not deceived by any call for a “new world order” that promises peace without the presence of the Prince of Peace. May His joy be your strength as you seek to glorify Him in your body and spirit, which are His (1 Cor:6:20). Let us maintain a pure witness until His return. He’s coming soon! TBC

    1. Dear Jeno.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Write short messages, and make one point at the time. This is not a place to publish small booklets. No one reads this kind of stuff in a comment field.

      The next long booklet, will be spammed.

  29. “the Church being separated from Israel, who alone will suffer in the Great Tribulation.”
    The Book of Revelation clearly says a multitude of GENTILES will saved along with Israel during the 7-year tribulation. Check it out in the Bible.

  30. It makes complete sense! What doesn’t make sense is a Norwegian living in Jerusalem hating on all forms or Christianity.

    1. huh???? When did Ivar move to Jerusalem? When did he hate all forms of a group he is a part of? are you on the wrong site???

  31. While my personal belief is along the lines of the pretrib snatching away of the saints (rapture), I really don’t mind when the Lord comes. My greatest concern is that I – we all are ready for when He will come suddenly to His temple – 1 Cor 6:19.
    Jesus said that when He the Bridegroom comes, five wise virgins will be ready and five foolish virgins won’t be ready – Matthew 25. Those who won’t be may have to suffer geat things on this earth.
    The Bridegroom takes his bride to His house. And there a great wedding feast will begin. Some point out that the wedding feast of ancient Jewry would take seven days.
    Biblestudy provide an interesting insight into the old Jewsih wedding.

    There appears to be some Scriptures that support the different views held on this matter of the ‘rapture’. I wonder if God has deliberately designed the Scripture that way so none can presume on the matter. Jesus plainly said no man can know the hour or the day when the Son of Man comes.
    It seems to me that if the rapture was post tibulation then we may have a very clear idea when He would come. Likewise if it were to happen half way through we may also reckon on a date.

    Those who lay down their lives for the gospel, are many, and we will never know their number this side of eternity. That they are part of the Bride is without question. That they are robed in white and are beautiful is also without question.
    But not all true followers of Jesus Christ have had to lay down their lives to the point of being a martyr for Jesus Christ. And these also are part of the bride of Christ Jesus.

    The bride of Jesus Christ are the faithful and true, the obedient and humble, the meek and the lowly who live in and for the truth of the gospel of Jesus as it is in Him, whether they have had to die for their faith or not. Let us remember that everyone who is a disciple of Jesus Christ is a martyr in the general sense of the word – witness. Jesus said that we have to take up our cross and follow Him daily. This is a death to the old life. Let us honour our brothers and sisters who lay down their lives with their blood. But let us not suppose that those who are not called to that are no less martyrs if they are following Jesus faithfully..

    Let us remember too, that Jesus said to Peter “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me” – when Peter asked Him about John’s time. John 21
    And so it is for this age and the end of days, what is it to us if Jesus requires some to give their lives and some others tarry till He comes. Let us leave these details to Jesus. And if some are left behind, then perhaps they will awake from their sleep and be willing to die for the faith of Jesus. What is it to us?
    Or even if we all have to go through that last great tribulation, let us be ready either way. Sooner or later he will come – ON TIME.

    God bless all the faithful in Jesus Christ. And God bless all the others to repent and obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  32. I have chosen not to read any of the above comments before I made my own.

    I have come from the pre-tribulation belief to what I know as the pre-wrath belief. I am still studying and reading and trying to decipher between what is “the tribulation”, “the great tribulation” and “God’s Wrath”. I understand you never used the word tribulation by itself, so maybe there is only the great tribulation concerning the Antichrist in physical form ruling and persecuting believers beyond what we see today. Then I understand that God’s Wrath will come after Jesus has delivered us from the Antichrist and locks up him, the false prophet, and the beast.

    The confusing part is whether we live on Earth for the 1000 years, then the beast is released again to turn those who thought they were saved, and finally destroy all three permanently. Not sure if I was able to convey my thoughts in a logical way. Thanks, Tifani

  33. The beast you speak of, Tifani, I am assuming you mean Satan.
    I believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus on earth. Many don’t. God knows exactly what He means.

    God’s wrath is poured out on the beast and his kingdom and on all those who take his mark, name or number – Rev 16:10

    At the beginning of the 1000 years of Christ’s reign, Satan is in the bottomless Pit chained up – that detail to me makes it very real indeed not figurative or symbolic.
    The antichrist and his false prophet are already in their final place of torment Rev 19:20.
    In Rev 20:10 we read that after the 1000 years and after his last attempt to overthrow God, satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire where those other two are already.

    At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is loosed from his prison and goes out to deceive the whole world’s population.
    It seems to me that this concerns those who have known nothing else but the righteous rulership of Christ, and who are born during that 1000 years.
    God has given each person the power to make their own choice for or against Him. This I believe is the reason why Satan is let loose upon the earth for the last time. Those born during that time may not know anything about the devil.
    .If this is so, it makes sense to me that those who had already decided to follow Jesus Christ having made a choice for Him rather than the devil need not face that time again. They would have either sealed that choice with their blood or had been ‘raptured’. God is a just God.

    Some think that the saints that have been caught up to the Lord in the air may return to reign with Jesus on the earth. If this is the case, then they would not be in a mortal body – having already passed that “time” , and thus would not be tempted again.

    God bless you in Jesus

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