Watch 116 examples of worship of skulls, corpses and body parts in Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches all over the World.
Clink on the link. Please share these articles in social media:
1. Bowing before the Catholic skulls of Chrysanthus and Daria
2. Jesuits made Vietnamese bow and kiss a skull
3. Worshiping the corpse of Santa Lucia
4. Parading “holy skull” in Spanish Galicia
5. Pope Benedict kneel and pray to skull
6. Armenian skull returned to Church in Naples
7. Parading a Catholic skull in Bari in Italy
8. Parading the skull of the grandmother of Jesus
9. The Italians worship skull of Luke
10. The skull and bones of a dressed-up Pope
11.The Holy Catholic skull of Austria
12. Honor false “holy skull” of Pope Lucius
13. Pope blessed skulls in Mexico
14. The two Catholic corpses of Kentucky, USA
15. The Catholic corpse of Sevilla
16. 6.000 Roman Catholics bow before a piece of flesh
17. Pope prayed to the cut out heart of Padre Pio
18. Catholics dress a corpse for the feast
19. The Bishops of Dagon display skulls
20. Four versions: Skulls of John Chrysostom
21. Skull of “blessed Gerard” kept by Order of Malta
22. Drama around skull and bones of Thomas Aquinas
23. Roman Catholic nuns fought and got half of saints boiled skull
24. Headless Mary Magdalene hailed in Catholic Church in France
25.The skull of Catholic “Santa” has a boken nose
26. The claimed skull of John the Baptist
27. Rome returned stolen skull of St. Irene
28. Roman Catholics parade a boneless skull in France
29. Pulling water through skull for healing
30. Touching the skull of Catholic Martin
31. Baltimore skull and bones to become “saint”
32. “Saint” Aloysius got his skull on display in Italy
33. The Holy skull of Adalbert
34. Priests rejoice over skull
35. Catholics in Bolivia celebrate “Day of the skulls”
36. Pope calls Catholics to venerate 1600 year old skull
37. Holy Catholic skulls watch over Madonna and child
38. Santa Eufemia with flowers on her skull
39.The skull and bone “monastery” in Sinai desert
40. Orthodox Greeks worship skulls and bones in the Holy Land
41. Parading the “holy” skull on Czech statehood day
42. The Bishop of Macau got his skull cut off
43. Skull of controversial priest kept inside altar in Hungary
44. Skull of Timothy to travel from Italy to Russia
45. Skull of claimed Italian saint auctioned for 5000 USD
46. Catholic priests worship corpse of Saint Ubaldo
47. Exhumed “saint” honored with Catholic mass
48. Parading the corpse of Saint Dionysios
49. Parading their “holy corpse” in Greece
50. The “holy” head of Corfu
51. Corpse of saint Valentine kept inside altar in Missouri US
52. The adorable corpse of Goa
53. Skull release blood of saint for Pope
54. The skull of Saint Ignatius
55. Skull of “holy” Pacificus
56. The skull of saint John Cassian
57. Skull of “Holy” Rose of Lima
58. Church in Milan with skulls and headless Chris
59. Worshipping the corpse of the Bishop of Milan
60. Italian Catholic corpse taken for a stroll
The list conitues after a brief comment:
It is not by the words a man speak, you can identify a follower of Jesus. But by his following, his fruits.
Matthew 7: 15-20:
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognise them. Do people pick grapes from thorn-bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognise them.
The book of Revelation warns us about a spiritual whore who will face stern judgment, and command all followers of Jesus the Messiah to come out of her.
Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: ‘“Come out of her, my people,” so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.
If you love your Christian congregation or fellowship: Please warn our pastors and leaders of the conseequences of accepting this whore as a part of our family of believers in the Messiah. Do not participate in the evils of these death cults who defame God of the Bible in the name of “Christ”.
61. Saint Theodors disputed skull and bones
62. Catholics in Ireland worship a “holy head”
63, The “holy” skull of Saint Yves
64: Roman Catholics pray in front of a “holy bone”
65: Catholics and Lutherans fight over bones of saint
66. Pope devoted to bones and 1600 years old woman
67. Shinbone of “Mary Magdalene” toured the US
68. Taking the leg bone of Oliver out for a stroll
69. The Pope tried to avert Iraq war with bones of Therese
70. “Holy” shinbone of Saint Mary Magdalene
71. The “holy sternum bone” of Francis Seelos
72. Kissing the remains and bones of Bartholomew I
73. The Pope keeps bones of “The holy Grandmother of god”
74. Tough Minister lady denies the Pope two bones of Danish king
75. US: Catholics worship a tooth and call for miracles
76.UK venerates 750 years old Catholic tongue
77.Dressing corpses for their Christ
78.Corpse of bishop with red gloves
79 Catholic skull got blue eyes and dental treatment
80. Pope offers incense to claimed bones of Peter
81. Rome pray to corpse of “Saint Zita”
82. Pope prays in front of skeleton dressed up as a nun
83. Venerable “Holy jaw” and teeth of Saint Anthony
84. The Catholic saint for all with toothache
85. Pope: Escape Purgatory by prayer in front of corpse of Bosco.
86. Catholics in Poland parade a “holy finger”
87. Holy tooth and two fingers of Galileo
88. Catholics adore skeleton and “feast of its tongue”
89. The roof came down on Church with corpse of Pope Celestine V
90. Parading a “holy arm” in France
91. They worship skulls and the spirit of death.
92. Catholics wants to develop skull tourism.
93. Catholics in Sicily offer money to skull
94. Pope pray to skull of apostle Andrew
95. Worshiping skull of Peter the inquisitor
96.Catholic cult in Naples honored skull of Lucia
97. 1200 skulls in the Bone House of Hallstatt in Austria
98. Saint from Malta kept both mummified and in wax
99. Rotten man and child in chains in “Holy chapel”
100: Pope presents quartered “saint” as model for Church
101: The heartless Catholic treatment of “St. Clair”
102: Chapel with 24.000 skulls and skeletons
103:4.000 skeletons in crypt in Roman Catholic Church in Rome
104: Parading the skull of Vincent Ferrer
105: Copts take corpse of “holy Bishay” for a stroll
106: Worshipping the corpse of Saint Camilla
107: Parading the skull of Prospero Martyr
108: “Holy cotton” from Italian Catholic skull
109: Spanish king parade military Catholic skull
110: Catholics adore the skull of “holy Helena”
111: Spaniards parade a Catholic skull in Arjona
112: Spanish Catholics use skull to bless wine
113: An angel put a finger into the brain of “Holy Aubert”
114: The Catholic skull in Champagne
115: Pope Paul VI returned a stolen skull
116: The hunt for the skull and bones of Holy Roman emperor
Published by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
God bless you, Ivar! Today I reblogged this article published at Richard Bennett’s Berean Beacon:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/new-blog/2015/11/16/the-practice-of-idolatry-within-the-church
It doesn’t deal with the issue of the worship of death but with what evangelicals and protestants are doing in our private lives and churches, books and films.
Thank you for gathering so much information on this one page. The evidence is weighty in judgment against her.
Maria
There is a saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. That this “bishop” is staring at the well dressed corpse in a prayerful position is evidence that he has gone off the deep end. True Christianity does not include dressing up dead bodies in fancy religious garbs and then praying to or in front of them This man is an idolater and heretic and is bringing curses upon himself, and possibly others by his example, as a supposed “learned” prelate. How really awful and a true disgrace. No wonder non believers laugh at what they believe represents “Christianity”.
Dear Scarlett.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
By exposing the Roman Catholic priesthood, I pray for two effects on millions of people.
1. The Roman Catholics will understand that their spiritual leaders are decivers.
2. Non-Believers will stop claiming Roman Catholics represent Jesus the Messiah, but rather embrace truth.
It is a cause worth figthing for. It is a matter of eternal life inside the Kingdom of Heaven or eternal pain and agony in the flames of Hell.
May Jesus the Messiah have mercy on all deceived souls, and strenghten His people who stand up for truth.
With all due respect, Scarlett, you do not know what you are talking about. You had better do your homework before denouncing the Church which the Lord Jesus Christ himself instituted. It has been my experience that even good people tend to mock what they do not understand.
Just one question. Do you believe these things about the Roman Catholic Church because of what someone else told you the Church teaches, or after you’ve thoroughly and objectively investigated the *official* teachings of the Church for yourself?
Here’s a recent book by the former director of Catholic Answers, Jimmy Akin. Why not learn what he and other knowledgeable Catholics, such as myself, have to say about the topics you raise? I would welcome an opportunity to dialogue with you.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you!
https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Salvation-Rescues-Delivers-Eternal/dp/1941663125
So you don’t have a problem with fellow Roman Catholics praying, venerating and generally worshiping corpses? Where does God’s word we’re supposed to do such? I understand you, Akin and many others might not do this but it’s unbelievably clear many do, such as your leaders. Do their need to be 116 pictures with the list of the 116?
Dear Matt.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Thanks for this comment. The 116 stories can not be ignored, and branded “fake news”. The photo’s display a damnable veneration of the dead. Skulls, bones, and corpses. The Roman Catholic preisthood is truly a priesthood of pagens, who defame the true Messianic faith, by branding their paganizm as “Christianity”. Such people needs to be rebuked in the most stern way, and a warning against them issued to the full human race.
The ancient Christian practice of venerating the relics of saints, especially martyrs, can be abused in a superstitious way by some who misunderstand the purpose of relics, it is not itself in any way superstitious.
A relic is an object, such as a piece of clothing or, more commonly, a piece of bone from a saint’s body, which has spiritual value because it belonged to one of God’s saints. The Bible records many accounts of the value of relics and even episodes of miraculous events connected with them.
“People brought to [Jesus] all who were sick and begged him that they might only touch the tassel on his cloak, and as many as touched it were healed” (Mt 14:35-36; cf. Mk 6:56; Lk 8:43-44).
It was not uncommon for ordinary objects, like the tassel on the Lord’s cloak, to have miraculous characteristics. Look also at Acts 5:15, where even Peter’s shadow could cause miraculous healings.
Regarding the relics of saints, especially martyrs (about whom the Bible says, “Precious in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his holy ones” [Ps 116:15])
2 Kings 13:21:
Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet.
Hi Ivar. I have tweeted a link to this article.
It does say ‘click on the link’ which I thought meant there was a live link which would take the reader to a more detailed description of each of the 52.
Makes you wonder what is going through their minds while doing those things. My guess is imagination running wild, like they were on drugs. Probably why some people say religion is the drug of the masses, but it should say false religion is the drug of the masses. What Jesus meant by “Drunk on the wine of their fornication”.
Reblogged this on "SNIFFING OUT THE LIES OF THE PARASITIC ELITE AND DIGGING UP BONES ON THE NEW WORLD ORDER" NEGDOG.COM.
Thank you Ivar. Didn’t grow up catholic but I am hearing the orthodox and Catholics arguing more and more thanks to blogs on Internet. I was confused since orthodox say they have nothing to do with pope.
Dear Andrea
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
There will be two main isses, that will separate the Christians from anti-Christians. The main one, if our branding of the Pope. He can not be both a Christian leader, and an antichrist. All men will have to choose. Many mainline Churches, let them be Othodox or Luherans, fall into the pit. Even Pentecostals.
Matthew 15:14
Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.’
The second issue, is the city of Jerusalem. This city can not both be liberated and occupied. If you claim Jerusalem is under occupation, you support the Catholic-Islamic narrative to history, based on lies and deception. The Pope in Rome claim Jerusalem is occupied, in particular the east side of the capital of Israel. But if you set up a wall in the city, you will basically destroy the capital. Like the super powers did in Berlin.
Shared this article with a group I am in as well.
Dear Andrea
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Thanks for sharing. I hope and pray thousands will do the same. Blessings.
Thank you Ivar for your reply and a lot of others did share the article. Not used to saying Shalom lol but used to the love of Jesus. Slowly learning the ecunemimenical movement and preachers getting in line with it. Never paid attention to the pope and the role he puts himself in but I am learning from people such as yourself. I thank you for allowing yourself to be used by God to help me and others see this serious issue.
Reblogged this on Christian Spook >> KJV Only / AV 1611.
Thanks for this article brethren. May God Almighty continue to bless you for this.
Dear Frederick Ochieng.
Shalom and praise Jesus.
It is a duty of all true followers of Jesus the Messiah to expose the fake Christianity. There are many cults, the Roman Catholic cult the biggest of them all. To adore, venerate and pray too skuls, bones and corpses is the most morbid form of religiousity. It brings shame to the true faith. Hundreds of millions of people take a stand against the true Messiah, and walk away. I will contine to expose the evils of religious people, and bring some light to this important topic.
In chapter 18 of the Martyrdom of Polycarp which was written in 155 A.D.:
“Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.”
Venerating the relics of a Saint and celebrating what amounts to an annual feast day for that dead Saint? Do you do this in your church? The only reason I ask is because Catholics do venerate relics as well as celebrate feast days of Saints…just like the first Christians did.
Tertullian writing in 211 A.D., in the 3rd Chapter of The Crown, said:
“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honors.”
Offerings for the dead? Do you make offerings for the dead at your church like the very first Christians did? Catholics still to this day do, why don’t you?
St. Cyprian writing in 250 A.D., in his Epistle to the Clergy and the People, said:
“Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration.”
Offering sacrifices for the dead? do you offer any type of sacrifice for the dead at your church like the very first Christians did? Catholics offer the perpetual sacrifice of the Mass for our departed brothers and sisters in Christ, I’ll ask again, why don’t you?
St. John Chrysostom, writing in the late fourth century said:
“When you are before the altar where Christ reposes, you ought no longer to think that you are amongst men; but believe that there are troops of angels and archangels standing by you, and trembling with respect before the sovereign Master of Heaven and earth. Therefore, when you are in church, be there in silence, fear, and veneration.”
Veneration? At an altar? WTF? Sounds distinctly Catholic if you ask me. To my Protestant friends, do you guys repose and venerate at your altar? Does your church even have an altar, if so, what sacrifice do you make, represent or re-present on it?
St. Jerome, a.k.a. the guy who translated the Bible to Latin (the Vulgate), from which every copy of the Bible is derived from, wrote a letter in 404 to a man named Riparius who was writing to Jerome because another man named Vigilantius was causing a lot of trouble for the Christians who were venerating the relics of the martyrs. So, did St. Jerome condemn Riparius for his iconoclastic belief? This is what St. Jerome wrote:
“You tell me that Vigilantius (whose very name “Wakeful” is a contradiction: he ought rather to be described as “Sleepy”) has again opened his fetid lips and is pouring forth a torrent of filthy venom upon the relics of the holy martyrs; and that he calls us who cherish them ashmongers and idolaters who pay homage to dead men’s bones. Unhappy wretch!…Still we honour the relics of the martyrs, that we may adore Him whose martyrs they are. We honour the servants that their honour may be reflected upon their Lord…I ask Vigilantius, “Are the relics of Peter and of Paul unclean? Was the body of Moses unclean, of which we are told (according to the correct Hebrew text, [Deut. xxxiv. 6]) that it was buried by the Lord Himself?
He concludes by saying,
“I will go farther still and ask a question which will make this theory recoil upon the head of its inventor and which will either kill or cure that frenzied brain of his, so that simple souls shall be no more subverted by his sacrilegious reasonings. Let him answer me this: Was the Lord’s body unclean when it was placed in the sepulchre? And did the angels clothed in white raiment merely watch over a corpse dead and defiled, that ages afterwards this sleepy fellow might indulge in dreams and vomit forth his filthy surfeit, so as, like the persecutor Julian, either to destroy the basilicas of the saints or to convert them into heathen temples?”
Or, how about St. Gregory of Nyssa in his 4th century Sermon on the Blessed Theodore the Martyr when he said:
“…drawing near to (the martyr’s) tomb which we believe to be both a sanctification and blessing. If anyone takes dust from the martyr’s resting place, it is a gift and a deserving treasure. Should a person have both the good fortune and permission to touch the relics, this experience is a highly valued prize and seems like a dream both to those who were cured and whose wish was fulfilled….one implores the martyr who intercedes on our behalf and is an attendant of God for imparting those favors and blessings which people seek.”
The fact of the matter is that venerating the dead and their relics, especially those of the saints, IS A HISTORICALLY CHRISTIAN THING TO DO. Hence the reason why the only historical Christian Church, the Roman Catholic Church, still does it to this day. Why doesn’t your church do what the early Christians did and believed?
Yes, it appears that while the author of this article defaming the Catholic Church delights in making accusations based on personal interpretation of Scripture with no authority & ignorance of any Church history, absurdity rules.
Apparently the church fell into disarray rather quickly. There is nothing in scripture that rationalizes this as a practice.
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
I’m pretty sure that all Bibles didn’t come from the Vulgate which is why it is so miraculous because of the textual purity of the earliest manuscripts. There is no book like it.
Please look at prounafides’ post above (dated Jan 4, 2016). It presents the historical basis for the practice from the Early Church Fathers, who were Catholic by the way.
And I would disagree: the bodies of our saints are temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19). They are therefore holy. They treat their bodies with reverence. They bury their dead with reverence to await the Second Coming of Our Lord & the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ. In all of this, the faithful are treated reverently because of their communion with Christ. Does your church do as much for its own?
Regarding the Catholic Bible, it is based on the Septuagint, so it is very old – among the earliest manuscripts. The Vulgate was written around the 4th century AD. You can read more about it here on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate
The Catholic Cult is so demonic and so full of Blasphemy I can hardly read this stuff. yet, everyday I pray for all will wake up to truth. so many brainwashed at a early age. there is no forgiveness for blasphemy. there should be more Watchmen on the walls to warnm and if we don’t tell them their blood will be on our hands.. There are so many who have believed the lie. But I pray anyways..and never want to stand in front of thed and have Him ask me why not..stay in the word and when someone you something, go to the word and see if it is truth
Please provide evidence of any demonic activity or blasphemy. I agree with the comment of brainwashing – but not on the Catholics’ part. On that same note, Catholics in the US are the main opponents to Satanists who regularly seem to want to perform Black Masses (these are a mockery of the Catholic mass) in public – usually by somehow obtaining a consecrated host (the bread which has been consecrated) to desecrate. If you can’t tell the difference, then I would seriously question your ability to properly discern truth from falsehood.
I would respectfully suggest that you do your research of history of the Early Church to see who in fact is promoting spurious information.
Catholics are in the Word – the Word made flesh, Who is Jesus Christ, Our Lord, God the Son – the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity. If you doubt, research it for yourself.
Jesus was decried because he dared declare Himself truth. Same will happen to His church. No other Church is being prosecuted for the last 2000 years than the Catholic Church.
Prosecution from outside and inside the Church will fail because Jesus Christ promised He will be with the Church He founded forever. The last 2000 years is proof of that.
Google Saint Polycarp: A Witness to Relics.
The veneration of saints and their relics is deeply bound up with a proper doctrine of the Church as the Body of Christ. If one believes that through baptism we are incorporated into Christ, and really become, in some mystical manner, a part of His Body, then we are thereby also bound to everyone else that is ‘in’ Christ.
(155 AD) Polycarp writes: “In it we see already the tradition of celebrating the day of martyrdom as a ‘birthday’ – i.e.; the feast day of the saint – and we have (what, in the account is presented as a commonplace activity) the gathering of relics from the saint – ‘more precious to us than jewels’ “
Dear Armorrcc
Shalom, and love in Jeuss.
Your defense for the Pope and his worship of relics, is again based on on the opinions of men. I never met Polycarp, but I know the scriptures.
1. Men shall not worship created items. But only the creator.
2. Men shall not make images of created beings, not bow before them them and use them in acts of worship.
3. God will punish those who act like lawless beings, and treat His commandments with contempt.
If you need scriture references, please read Exodus 20: 1-4 all over again. Romans 1: 25 will also be usefull. Pray that truth will be reveled to you, and and that you will escape the fire of Hell. May Jesus of the Bible have mercy on your soul. Amen.
Dear Armorcc
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Jesus was decried because he dared declare Himself truth. Same will happen to His church. No other Church is being prosecuted for the last 2000 years than the Catholic Church.
My comment:
What kind of logic is this? You are basically saying that “Jesus is truth. The Church is truth”. No were in the scriptures, the Church is labeled as truth.
The second half of your comment, is about persecution, and the claim that the Catholic Church is 2000 years old. The logic implemented in your comment, is that the Catholic Church is being persecuted because she is truth (or at least tell the truth). This is wrong. The Catholic Church is correctly being labeled as a non-Evangelical Church, because the RCC do not stand for truth.
That Catholic priests are being burtchered by Islamic foces, is truly sad and regrettable. But no proof that the priest stood for truth. The Islamic forces do not know the differences between truth and lies. Satan has no objection, to his own people are being butchered. Satan is evil.
That the Catholic Church claims to be 2.000 years old, is another pack of lies. When you write “No other Church” means that only the Catholic Church is being persecuted for the last 2.000 years. Another lie. The Coptic Church in Egypt and the Thomas Church in India are both older than the RCC. Both claims to have an apostle as their founder, both persecuted and martyred. Both of these not Roman Catholic Churhces exist today.
I have dozens of time rebuked you on this issue, and tried in vain to correct you. I wonder how I have patience enough to let you continue commenting on this blog.
How can anyone with a name like Polycarp be wrong. He twists the scripture to justify kissing dead rotten flesh and bone. Polycarp must have been blind to anything spiritual, he seems to barely grasp the concept of anything that can’t be dug up.
The “mystical” manner of the body of Christ is that it’s not dead flesh. It is a spiritual body.
1 cor. 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
Edward, please research Polycarp. The Apostle John discipled him and he was a martyr. Check Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.
Dear Maria.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
I have no complaints about Polycarp. What I know, is that any man, for whatever he has said, must be tested against scriptures. Also what “Church father Ivar” might have said.
The second issue is of being misquoted. The only vald source for truth, reated to the Christian faith, is the infallible Bible.
The third aspect, is the RCC stealing “saints”. Polycarp lived 150 years before the formation of the RCC. He followed the Jewish Biblical challender, and not he challender of the Emperor of Rome.
I have done an indebt study of the life and legacy of a later “saint”, whom the RCC in Ireland has stolen from the Celtic Church. The Baptist Sabbath keeper Columkille, a sixt centry follower of the Messiah. The RCC has tarnished his legacy, by making the Irish apostle into “saint Columba”.
Ex 13:19 “the Israelites took Josephs bones when they departed Egypt”
Relics are in scripture
Dear armorrcc
Shalom and love in Jesus.
Exodus 13:19. To carry bones to their final destination in a tomb, is not the same as Roman Catholic worship of skulls. The Jews never bowed before the dead, nor prayed to them.
We have been through this debate many times. You do not want to listen, nor correct your ways. Please, now: Keep your earlier promises, and leave News That Matters. So I do not have to spam you.
When St. Polycarp was Bishop of Smyrna, around 110 A.D., St. Ignatius of Antioch was under guard being taken to Rome where he was to be martyred. On his way there, he wrote seven letters, one being addressed to the Christians at Smyrna (where Polycarp was bishop). In this letter he writes,
“Wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the earliest use of the term “Catholic” that we have in ancient writings.
It is interesting that it is a man of Antioch who first writes the term Catholic Church. This is because it was also at Antioch that the followers of Jesus were for the first time called “Christians.” (Acts 11:26)
It seems you are saying the Christian martyrdom of the disciples of Apostle Saint John was for nothing.
You sure? He’s quoting a Polycarp from 155 AD. Relics are not scriptural at all. A saints belongings being like “jewels” is a lie, and I only need to read scripture to know that. Foxe’s book probably claims the Pope is a successor to Peter too…
The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life. 2 Kings 13:20 – 21
This is a perfect example of TWISTING words to suit your purpose.
I said:
the gathering of relics from the saint – ‘more precious to us than jewels’ “
You replied:
A saints belongings being like “jewels” is a lie,
You added the word “like”. This makes a huge difference.
And this is how the Catholic Church has been attacked by writers and journalists for centuries now.
You said: No were in the scriptures, the Church is labeled as truth.
Catholics know because it is the Catholic Church which is the “Pillar and the Foundation of the Truth”, not the Bible, as shown in 1Timothy 3:15. Not one non-Catholic church can make that claim, as not one of them even existed until almost 1500 years after 1Timothy was written
Ivar.
You said:
Your defense for the Pope and his worship of relics, is again based on on the opinions of men.
My reply:
Show me any Church document where it says we worship relics. You have added your own meaning of venerating and honour.
Veneration and honour does NOT mean worship.
Edward
Jesus Christ prayed we would all be one.
Jesus Christ established one church…but we are all made free.
You have to look at what the Church was at its beginning.
If you look to Bible alone, you will find a tremendous gap of documented history and how faith was lived out the first 400 years……..tradition.
I think I have answered all that has been thrown at me and my Catholic Church.
Dear Armorrcc.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
And since you seem to be satisfied with your own work, have a nice journey onwards. I hope and pray that one day, you might be able to stand for truth. So that your soul will not have to spend eternity in Hell. May Jesus the Messiah have mercy on your soul, and on my soul too. Amen.
What should I have said Armorrcc? The saints belonging are literally jewels? Polycarp used a metaphor since the rotting bones and belongings of the saints are not literally jewels.
I’m sure the Catholic church would like you to believe nothing was written down for 400 years. That way they can write down anything they want and claim to be the pillar of Christianity. But I believe the Bible, God is not against writing things down, Since we see that He had Moses write things down, John was kept alive to write things down. John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
Dear Edward
Shalom and love in Jesus.
Armorrcc has been told to honor his earlier promises, of leaving News That Matters and not return. Please do not entertain his last comments. Editor.
Amorcc, I didn’t say Christian Martyrdom was for nothing, It seems martyrdom of the Christians by the Romans was so that the Roman Catholic church could write whatever it wanted in their place. Why Jesus destined for them to be Martyred is another story, perhaps to justify their murderers to eternal life in hell. Polycarp was obviously a Judas proclaiming the Catholic church through dead men who could not protest.
Dear Edward.
Shalom and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
Polycarp was obviously a Judas proclaiming the Catholic church through dead men who could not protest.
My reply:
Did you read my comment, explaining why Policarp was never assosiated with the Catholic Church?
Polycarp is regarded as a saint and Church Father in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran churches.
His feast day is on February 23.
Dear Armorrcc….
This was your last comment. Now, please honor your word, and exit gracefully. Editor.
Matt 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Christ is the church Father. Matt 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Polycarp is not my Father
Edward, please learn to be discerning. No one is asking you to call Polycarp “father” – he and all the children of God have only on Father – the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Polycarp is our brother in the Lord. Please read Ivar’s comments – he knows and honors God’s Holy Word, the Bible.
Amen Edward.
This is an excellent expose on the morbidity of the Roman Catholic Church. It really is disgusting when you think about it.
It is good Ivar that you have presented this evidence for anyone to view.
However, even if you had not done so, God has scrupulously kept all evidence against the truth in many ways. And just as our Lord Jesus said – Luke 19:40 “And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.”
God is able to make even stones to cry out and yes, animals, even to speak with a man’s voice – such as Balaam’s donkey.
In Exodus 20:5 God says “you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them” LITV
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” KJV
Untold millions of poor souls have and still are being told that they should bow down to and serve idols made with hands, and to reverence and honour dead bones, and they do so in God’s Holy name.
In Exodus 20:5 there are two verbs – actions that God had forbidden. “Bow down” and “serve”
Bow down is from the Hebrew – shâchâh. It is a “primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): – bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.” (note it includes OBEISANCE AND REVERENCE).
Reverence means – a feeling or attitude of PROFOUND RESPECT, usually reserved for the sacred or divine; devoted VENERATION; an outward sign of this feeling, especially a bow or act of OBEISANCE. The state of being revered or commanding profound respect.
To serve comes from the Hebrew word ‛âbad. I means – “to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: – X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.
To serve also means to dress. Isn’t that what Rome does with its dead popes in order to display them inordinantly. And by doing so they enslave millions in this filthy act. And it is filthy because it is going against the intent and purposes of God. Sin is filthy and it defiles the soul because it is all about death.
Jesus said – Let the dead bury their dead.
The angels said to the disciple at the empty tomb – Why do you seek the living among the dead?
Even if these popes and ‘saints’ were truly God’s saints, why do hundreds of millions, why would their leaders seek for the living among the dead?
It is because they are pre- occupied with death and not with life.
The bones are dead and so are those who honour them.
Bury the dead, and look to Jesus Christ who is raised from the dead. and He will give you light.
This command in Exodus 20 verse 5, speaks of man made images and statutes, by whatever name they may be called. And such are but stone or plastic or plaster or stone or metal or wood, or some other material. They have eyes but cannot see. Ears but cannot hear. Feet but cannot walk. Mouths that cannot speak or eat. Hands that cannot work.
And such are the bones of the dead. The soul has departed and has appeared before God for judgment. And the bones can do nothing, and are of no use to the living. The bones cannot eat, speak, hear, talk, walk or work.
This is nothing better than what the ignorant do in witchcraft and black magic with their dead.
Many use the incident of Elisha’s bones causing a dead person being buried come to life to promote the Catholic veneration of dead bones; – it’s foolishness.
Elisha’s soul was not present in those bones, but rather was in that other place prepared for the sainst of old that had died in the Lord.
The incident was an accident – not planned by any man. It was purely a display of God’s power of raising the dead, in order to testify to the living that Elisha was a man of God when he was alive. And God was alive and still working in Israel.
And that account is still testimony to that which God has promised that all the dead will be raised; some to life and some to everlasting shame.
It is enough that we respect the bones of the dead by burying them out of sight. This is what God instructed His people to do.
To put them on display permanently as if they ought to be revered is idolize them, and is total disrespect to that thing which was made in the image of God.
God never commands His people to venerate dead bones of men. He condemns it.
Abraham’s body, Isaac’s body, Jacob’s body, Joseph’s body were all buried – put out of sight. God buried Moses’ body. David’s body was buried.
Jesus’ own dead body was put out of sight. And in His mortal corpse being raised from the dead it was raised in immortality. We must not chase dead bones. That is what dogs do.
Those who justify themselves in such actions do so vainly. God will not justify such disobedience. Repent of it if you are the Lord’s. Heed the words of our Lord Jesus in lLuke 16, who said of the rich man who died and was buried, That in hell he lifted up his eyes being in great torment, pleading for a drop of water from a poor saint he refused to nourish. Abraham said ” And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
THERE IS NO PURGATORY. Only eternal shame or eternal glory. Nothing in between.
Dear catholic people, your dead popes have passed on to their appointed place. Those who did not repent from their dead works, are now in eternal torment, lamenting that they could tell you to stop your idolatry and worship only God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.
Now they would be willing to preach the true gospel. But it too late for them.
It’s not too late for you.
But if you will still do it ,…do it.
“In Exodus 20:5 God says “you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them” LITV
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” KJV”
But yet God commanded the images of cherubim to be placed atop of the Ark of the Covenant, which was so holy that it was placed for a time in the Holy of Holies – & the people did bow before it;
God commanded that a staff with a serpent be created for those who had been bitten by seraphs in the desert to look at & live;
God approved of the images of cherubim, bulls, pomegranates, and trees to adorn the Temple of Jerusalem.
Why do you think He did this?
“Untold millions of poor souls have and still are being told that they should bow down to and serve idols made with hands, and to reverence and honour dead bones, and they do so in God’s Holy name.
In Exodus 20:5 there are two verbs – actions that God had forbidden. “Bow down” and “serve””
For the record, no one is commanded to do any of what you claim. An idol is an object used for worship. To Catholics, icons, paintings, mosaics, statues, & other forms of art help us in focusing on the heavenly. It is no different than focusing on a picture of a loved one – except that the saints are members of the household of God: that is Scriptural. Their bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, & in that note, they are held as sacred & treated with the proper reverence because they are united to Christ. Even if they die, the Scriptures tell us that we will live forever. Our bodies may be in the ground or in ashes, but our souls live in His Presence upon our earthly death. That, too, is Scriptural.
To serve also means to dress. Isn’t that what Rome does with its dead popes in order to display them inordinantly.
No. That is your own opinion. As stated above, they are reverenced because they are united to Christ the Vine as branches, they cannot die because they abide in Him, & their bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit.
And by doing so they enslave millions in this filthy act. And it is filthy because it is going against the intent and purposes of God.
Oh, you speak for God now? How did you arrive at this understanding? There was a radio minister who did this some years back. None of his prophecies of the 2nd Coming ever came true, & he died in the end having bilked his followers of untold amounts of money.
“Sin is filthy and it defiles the soul because it is all about death.”
I would say yes, sin is filthy. It leads to death.
Jesus said – Let the dead bury their dead.
Context, please:
From Luke 9:
59
And to another he said, “Follow me.” But he replied, “[Lord,] let me go first and bury my father.”
60
But he answered him, “Let the dead bury their dead.* But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
61
e And another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but first let me say farewell to my family at home.”
62
[To him] Jesus said, “No one who sets a hand to the plow and looks to what was left behind is fit for the kingdom of God.”
From the Commentary following the text:
* [9:57–62] In these sayings Jesus speaks of the severity and the unconditional nature of Christian discipleship. Even family ties and filial obligations, such as burying one’s parents, cannot distract one no matter how briefly from proclaiming the kingdom of God. The first two sayings are paralleled in Mt 8:19–22; see also notes there.
* [9:60] Let the dead bury their dead: i.e., let the spiritually dead (those who do not follow) bury their physically dead. See also note on Mt 8:22.
The key word here is spiritually dead.
The angels said to the disciple at the empty tomb – Why do you seek the living among the dead?
This doesn’t apply. The people in the Scriptures had come to view the Body of Our Lord in the tomb.
Even if these popes and ‘saints’ were truly God’s saints, why do hundreds of millions, why would their leaders seek for the living among the dead?
They don’t. They come to show reverence for those whom God has sanctified because they, too, share in His glory: that is Scriptural.
“It is because they are pre-occupied with death and not with life. The bones are dead and so are those who honour them.”
No, that is your incorrect assumption. Had you actually known history & Scripture, you would not make such a statement.
“Bury the dead, and look to Jesus Christ who is raised from the dead. and He will give you light.”
We do bury our dead with honor because of the One Who makes them holy.
And such are the bones of the dead. The soul has departed and has appeared before God for judgment. And the bones can do nothing, and are of no use to the living. The bones cannot eat, speak, hear, talk, walk or work.
This is nothing better than what the ignorant do in witchcraft and black magic with their dead.
“Many use the incident of Elisha’s bones causing a dead person being buried come to life to promote the Catholic veneration of dead bones; – it’s foolishness.”
Actually, no, it’s not. It demonstrates that God can use the most unlikely things to show His power.
“Elisha’s soul was not present in those bones, but rather was in that other place prepared for the sainst of old that had died in the Lord.
The incident was an accident – not planned by any man. It was purely a display of God’s power of raising the dead, in order to testify to the living that Elisha was a man of God when he was alive. And God was alive and still working in Israel.
And that account is still testimony to that which God has promised that all the dead will be raised; some to life and some to everlasting shame.”
It may not have been planned by man, but God used that opportunity to show His power through the bones of Elisha. On this we can agree.
“To put them on display permanently as if they ought to be revered is idolize them, and is total disrespect to that thing which was made in the image of God.”
Did you even read what you just read? The very reason they are reverenced is because the person was created in the image of God – their body is a temple of the Holy Spirit – they are still connected to Jesus Christ, the Vine, & therefore, have life because He lives. They now partake of the Divine nature as Scripture says in 2 Peter 1:3-4.
“God never commands His people to venerate dead bones of men. He condemns it.”
Please cite Scripture – Book, Chapter, & Verse. I want to see where He explicit says so as you claim.
“THERE IS NO PURGATORY. Only eternal shame or eternal glory. Nothing in between.”
Purgatory is only for believers in Christ who will undergo purification before heaven. Christ’s sacrifice brings forgiveness of our sins and salvation from death, but it does not remove the temporal or spiritual consequences of our sins that we commit. It is not a 2nd chance to get out of hell. Hell is for those who choose to be there by their actions & wills who deny God.
When Jesus spoke about those who spoke against the Holy Spirit who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), why do you think He stated that? If there is only this life & a transition to the next, why would the possibility to be forgiven in the age to come be mentioned? He is therefore suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins.
How about the man who was put in prison in Matthew 18?
23“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of goldh was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28“But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.iHe grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29“His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30“But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32“Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
If we just go to heaven when our time to settle our accounts with the Lord comes, why was this man sent to prison to pay his debt to God? Yes, to pay his debt to Him.
What happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15)
Hebrews 12:4: Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Leave your idolatry and worship God in spirit and in truth. You are a totally misguided and lost person, and you twist the scripture to your own destruction. Only a spiritually blind person can twist the scripture and write the things you do. Worshiping/venerating/adoring corpses couched as relics and praying to dead ‘saints’ is witchcraft, and it proves that the catholic church is a haunt of demons.
It is good Ivar that you have presented this evidence for anyone to view.
However, if if you had not done so, God has scrupulously kept all evidence against the truth in many ways. And just as our Lord Jesus said – Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
God is able to make even stones to cry out and yes, animals, even to speak with a man’s voice – Balaam’s donkey.
In Exodus 20:5 God says “you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them” LITV
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them” KJV
Untold millions of poor souls have and still are being told that they should bow down to and serve idols made with hands, and to reverence and honour dead bones.
In Exodus 20:5 there are two verbs – actions that God had forbidden.
“Bow down” and “serve”
Bow down is from the Hebrew – shâchâh. It is a “primitive root; to depress, that is, prostrate (especially reflexively in homage to royalty or God): – bow (self) down, crouch, fall down (flat), humbly beseech, do (make) obeisance, do reverence, make to stoop, worship.” (note it includes reverence).
Reverence means – a feeling or attitude of profound respect, usually reserved for the sacred or divine; devoted veneration; an outward sign of this feeling, especially a bow or act of obeisance. The state of being revered or commanding profound respect.
To serve comes from the Hebrew word ‛âbad. I means – “to work (in any sense); by implication to serve, till, (causatively) enslave, etc.: – X be, keep in bondage, be bondmen, bond-service, compel, do, dress, ear, execute, + husbandman, keep, labour (-ing man), bring to pass, (cause to, make to) serve (-ing, self), (be, become) servant (-s), do (use) service, till (-er), transgress [from margin], (set a) work, be wrought, worshipper.
To serve also means to dress. Isn’t that what Rome does with its dead popes in order to display them inordinantly. And by doing so they enslave millions in this filthy act. And it is filthy because it is going against the intent and purposes of God. Sin is filthy and it defiles the soul because it is all about death.
Jesus said – Let the dead bury their dead.
The angels said to the disciple at the empty tomb – why do you seek the living among the dead. Even if these popes and ‘saints’ were truly God’s saints, why do millions, why would their leaders seek for the living among the dead?
It is because they are pre- occupied with death and not with life.
The bones are dead and so are those who honour them.
“Bury the dead, and look to Jesus Christ who is raised from the dead.”
This command in Exodus 20 verse 5, speaks of man made images and statutes, by whatever name they may be called. But such are but stone or plastic or plaster or stone or metal or wood, or some other material. They have eyes but cannot see. Ears but cannot hear. Feet but cannot walk. Mouths that cannot speak or eat. Hands that cannot work.
And such are the bones of the dead. The soul has departed and has appeared before God for judgment. And the bones can do nothing, and are of no use to the living. The bones cannot eat, speak, hear, talk, walk or work.
This is nothing better than what the ignorant do in witchcraft and black magic with their dead.
Many use the incident of Elisha’s bones causing a dead person being buried come to life to promote the Catholic veneration of dead bones; – it’s foolishness.
Elisha’s soul was not present in those bones, but rather was in that other place prepared for the sainst of old that had died in the Lord.
The incident was an accident – not planned by any man. It was purely a display of God’s power of raising the dead, in order to testify to the living that Elisha was a man of God when he was alive. And God was alive and still working in Israel.
And that account is still testimony to that which God has promised that all the dead will be raised; some to life and some to everlasting shame.
It is enough that we respect the bones of the dead by burying them out of sight. This is what God instructed His people to do.
To put them on display permanently as if they ought to be revered is idolize them, and is total disrespect to that thing which was made in the image of God.
God never commands His people to venerate dead bones of men. He condemns it.
Abraham’s body, Isaac’s body, Jacob’s body, Joseph’s body were all buried – put out of sight. God buried Moses’ body. David’s body was buried.
Jesus’ own dead body was put out of sight. And in His mortal corpse being raised from the dead it was raised in immortality. We must not chase dead bones. That is what dogs do.
Those who justify themselves in such actions do so vainly. God will not justify such disobedience. Repent of it if you are the Lord’s.
Dear Catholic people, Heed the the voice of Jesus in His message about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.
The rich man ignored the poor man, but could have helped him immensely so that he would be no longer poor. Both men died. The rich man went to hell and the poor man went to Abraham’s place of rest. The rich man could see beyond his own eternally damned place and cried out to Abraham that he send the poor man to give him some water off the end of his finger – one tiny drop would have been a treasure.
But Abraham told him it was not possible – ever! “And beside all this, between you and me there is a great gulf fixed; so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
Your dead popes are not in their dead bones and if they did not repent from all their sins at the end are in that same place as the rich man is. They would give anything for five minutes to tell you that you must do what they taught, or practiced. They would tell you that you must have faith in Jesus Christ alone for He alone can save you.
But it is too late for them. Their judgment has been set.
But it is not too late for you.
But if you will still do these thig, then do them. You will reap what you sow.
Ivar,
All I see here is that you enjoy the praise from those that share your views and attack who don’t. I was following everything and found it an interesting debate when Armorrcc joined in, but you seemed bitter about his points. Either he’s saying the truth or not, you have not in any convincing way countered his points which he backed up by past writings, not just hearsays, but you rather threatened him to report him as spam.
You enjoy attacking Catholic Church but angry at being questioned.
Dear Flanchich. Shalom and love in Jesus. Its mot easy to be a moderator. There has to be some rules. 1. Jew-hate and antisemitism is not permitted. 2. Promotion of violence is banned. 3. Filthy language will not be tolerated. I always warn people. It they do not change their ways, that are spamed.
“It they do not change their ways, that are spamed.”
Uh, I think you mean banned – not spammed.
@Duolos August 13, 2018 at 1:57 pm
In response to your comments:
“Leave your idolatry and worship God in spirit and in truth. Only a spiritually blind person can twist the scripture and write the things you do.”
1. Was it idolatry that God had commanded with the fashioning of the cherubim that went atop of the Ark of the Covenant?
2. Was it idolatry that God had commanded with the fashioning of the staff with the serpent when the people were to look at after being bitten by seraphs in the desert?
3. Was it idolatry that God had commanded when He approved of cherubim, trees, bulls, & pomegranates to adorn the Temple of Jerusalem?
Please justify your answer. Please demonstrate where your assertions are Biblical & historical where the Early Church goes.
“You are a totally misguided and lost person, and you twist the scripture to your own destruction. Only a spiritually blind person can twist the scripture and write the things you do.”
This is your unauthoritative interpretation, sir, because you hold to no authority but your own, which is subjective & has no recourse to any Church standard historically. And it is a diversion at that because you have no Biblical argument to support your claims. Quite the opposite.
“Worshiping/venerating/adoring corpses couched as relics and praying to dead ‘saints’ is witchcraft, and it proves that the catholic church is a haunt of demons.”
Based on what? Your unauthoritative subjective opinion? Your calling it “witchcraft” & other insults does not make it so.
Please provide proof historically of the Early Church & Biblically. Please cite book, chapter, & verse where what you claim is explicitly stated in the Scriptures specifically naming the Catholic Church as you state. This is a reasonable request, & your adding insults for sensationalistic effect throwing in words such as “a haunt of demons” & “witchcraft” does not lend credibility to your arguments.