It is insufficient to make Jesus a free ticket from Hell. You have to let Him make you a subject of his Lordship.
There are many people who claim Jesus the Messiah to be their savior. They understand the gospel to be like a ticket out of Hell. Their understanding of the cross is that it has abolished the law, so that a man is not bound by the lawgiver who saved them.
This is a gross error, and a deception that leads to death and destruction. The Messiah is not only a High Priest of Judaism, who has replaced the need for blood sacrificed, by using His own blood as atonement for sins. He is also the King of the Jews. A king who rule over His subjects in His eternal kingdom. Let them be both Jews and gentiles who obey Him. Trust Him and relay on Him.
A man is saved by grace, only. You can not add works to the saving grace offered by Jesus the Messiah. His death and resurrection is sufficient to stall the wrath of God.
But salvation comes with a price. You have to surrender to the King of Kings, and come under His Lordship. Faith without works, is dead faith. It is worthless, and will lead to eternal condemnation. You need to let Jesus transform you, and let him bring your into a process of holiness, which is also called a life of sanctification.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
This is not your work, based on your will, and your desires. This is kingdom work, issued by the King. Pre-planned work, that has to be executed.
Those who reject the Lordship of the Messiah, are false teachers. You can discern them by their misquotation of Paul, and their claim that this apostles has given us permission to set a side the law. Not understanding that Jesus the Messiah is the lawgiver, who demand that we follow His commands.
He took the pubishment we deserves as lawbreakers. The Messiah never set aside or abolished the law, and the need for obedience.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
That we are not able to follow all his command’s and instructions, do not gives us liberty to disobey Him without consequences. A man who originally was saved, can fool him self out of salvation. By walking into deceptions.
What kind of seed are you?
Do you have mentors or Bible teachers who have told you the truth?
Or are you a seed that has no proper rooth, no proper foundation for your faith?
Luke 8:11:12
“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
The Bible warns about men who will rejoice of salvation. But since their faith has no proper roots, they quickly falls away. When they reject the commands of God, their progress towards holiness is stalled.
John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Listen to the Word of God, and not to fools who pretend they believe, but do not follow. Do not listen to claimed to be Bible teachers, who have refused to come under the Lordship of God of Israel. Who reject that there is only only one God, God of the Hebrews. He has always demanded a surrender to His absolute Lordship. Let King Jesus reign in your life. Give Him all of you, and all the honor and glory. Amen.
Written by Ivar
Banjara Origin News 
Couldn’t agree more, Ivar.
But I do think it is important to make a distinction between salvation, which is ALWAYS by grace through faith–a free gift of God–AND sanctification which is progressive growth in obedience. I do not agree with the term, “Lordship Salvation” as though salvation is tied to obedience but it is a term that is usually employed by “Free Grace” people. The “controversy” of “Lordship Salvation” and “Free Grace” is largely a manufactured controversy from the extremes on both sides. I believe it comes from the blurring of the distinction between justification (which comes with salvation) and sanctification which Scripture tells us to “work out with fear and trembling”.
“Cheap grace” is probably a bad term as all grace is, in fact, FREE. Lordship is, in reality, discipleship and not only are we called to be true disciples but we are called to “make disciples.” (see Matthew 28:19) Some sage has summed up the relationship of salvation to sanctification as, “Salvation is free but discipleship is gonna cost ya’.” 🙂
Blessings to you and yours!
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
But I do think it is important to make a distinction between salvation, which is ALWAYS by grace through faith–a free gift of God–AND sanctification which is progressive growth in obedience. I do not agree with the term, “Lordship Salvation”.
My reply:
I have made this crystal clear in the article. Salvation is an offer from God, that no man can add into. It is a non conditional offer of unlimited grace, based on the finished work of Jesus the Messiah at the cross on Calvary. He loved us while we were still sinners.
But the salvation of each man is not un-conditional. Without letting Jesus transform you into His kingdom worker, you might be branded as a useless and wicked servant.
Let it be underlined: Billions of human beings will not be saved. Jesus warned us that only a few, would be able to make it through the narrow gate. That message should be more than suffiient to make us fear God, and force us to obey His will. And do the Fathers work. (Matthew 7: 21-23).
Hi Ivar,
I do not think the Bible teaches that salvation, once gained, can be lost. Since it is a work of God, how can we, by anything we do or don’t do, effect its removal? Not sure if that is what you are suggesting but there is an inconsistency between your first paragraph and the second paragraph, on that point.
Impermanent salvation is an odious Roman Catholic doctrine that has Catholics popping in and out of salvation, based on how recent was their time in the confessional–where a priest is responsible for interceding for them. Convenient for the RCC hierarchy–not too convenient for the person who falls to his death off the side of a skyscraper.
What the Bible does teach is that our works will gain us rewards (or, for an unsaved one, just “a few stripes” in his/her time of punishment for his/her uncovered sins) in the afterlife. When the Apostle Paul speaks of “suffering loss” in 1 Corinthians 9:27, he is speaking of a loss of heavenly reward. That is made clear in the reference to an athletic performance in the passage. An athlete looks for reward and is disappointed when his performance does not gain a reward. Paul had earlier stated (in 1 Corinthians 3:15), on the matter of works, “If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” In other words, that saved-by-grace-through-faith individual made it into heaven but none of his “good” works followed him, disqualifying him for reward, because they were done with the wrong motivation.
There are, of course, some “religious” individuals refused access to heaven altogether because they saw no need of the saving grace provided by our Messiah–by His very own Blood.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I do not think the Bible teaches that salvation, once gained, can be lost. Since it is a work of God, how can we, by anything we do or don’t do, effect its removal?
My reply:
Calvinism claims pre-destination. A person who is saved, can not loose His salvation. The Bible tells us otherwise.
Jesus explain of foolish and wise builders. They have both heared the gospel, and reponded. But some of the seeds fell along the path, and some among thornes. Only those who have build their faith on the rock, will stand the times of testing.
Pauls says we have to work for our salvation (already gained) with trembling and fear.
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
If we could not loose our salvation, there was neither a need for trembling, and no need to fear God.
So what they are saying is works are a sign, or symptom, of faith.
Jesus was/is High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek was not a Jew, but was High Priest of God. So since God gave the Jews the 10 commandments and the Law, it just works out that being High Priest of God, He is also High Priest of the Jews.
Hebrews 7:11 “If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood–and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood–why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?”
Hebrews 7:1 This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him,
Dear Ed Jones
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Regardless of the origin of a mortal man named Melchizedek, Jesus is God. Jesus is the author of the law, the fulfiller of the law, and the eternal judge.
There are amplified Bible verses that underlines that He demands obedience.
Those who love Him, OBEY His commands. The work of the Holy Spirit is to remind us about sins. Sin is transgression against the law.
1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
(end of scripture).
Among many false Churches, are those lead by pastors who claim that to sing and dance in the name of Jesus, is sufficient works. They call it “praise and worship”. That this kind of activity is sufficeint to claim obedience, is at best a joke, but rather religious foolishness. You need to be under His Kingship also outside of the congregathion where you are a member.
How do you know Melchizedek was a mortal man? It says he had no mother or father, no beginning or end.
KJV about Melchizedek:
Hebrews 7:3 “Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”
The humanist try to say it’s merely saying no record of his geneology, but I do not believe that is what they are saying. Do you?
New living translation
Hebrews 7:3 “There is no record of his father or mother or any of his ancestors–no beginning or end to his life. He remains a priest forever, resembling the Son of God.”
People just want to believe they are saved, but as Ivar wrote above, IF you love Me , keep my commands..and those who love me, hear MY voice and follow ME..Like Paul who said, I find myself doing and saying things that are wrong,, and then said, I am the chief sinner. G-d looks at our heart. as we all will sin, but hate it and need to work an stay in the word not to sin, because we love HIM..later in the warnings to the seven churches that G-d warns..and also remembe how G-d said: I will you were hot or cold, but becasue you were luke warm I will vomit you out of my mouth..HE is the Word, not the pulpits. lots of false teachers out there as G-d warned would be there. not to mention how we getting saved, are grafted into Israel, not the church. that is why we see so many nations hating Israek as they read the bible backwards. no one according to G-d will have an excuse. we all have free choice.. so many says I am saved but has no feeling of guilt as they go on sinning and think nothing of it. the word of G-d has been twisted, added to and taken away .No one has anything to boast of but Christ Crusified..and remember a friend of the world is a enemy of G-d.. Hes aid, search for ME in the word and you will find ME…but they just listen to the false teachers…You are so right Ivar..
Absolutely, and it’s been that way since the beginning it seems.
Jude 1:4 “For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”
Mr Ed Jones, great points! i have heard that he is a typology of Christ. very interesting regardless.
Ivar, great article! i saved the picture you posted with the lion/Christ! thanks!
in my observation; in the u.s., the central ‘issue’ (among our many issues) is the lack of Sabbath observance. my belief is that most do not recognize sunday as the day rome has set aside. in looking at Cain killing Able, worship was the major issue. when Christ was baptized (matt 4, luke 4), satan wanted worship. the 3 Hebrews (Daniel 1-2) were prosecuted over worship, Daniel (Ch 6) over worship.
before Christ returns a call to proper worship is what the first angel calls us to (Rev 14:6-7; read this then compare with Ex 20:11) with the Sabbath being recognized (as all the early Christians did). then Babylon (rome) is fallen, the 2nd angel says. then the 3rd tells us to not receive the ‘mark’ of rome. rome has called its ‘mark’ (again dealing with worship) the observance of sunday over the Day of the Lord, the 7th Day, the Sabbath.
while we can worship the Lord 7 days a week, but keeping His Sabbath Holy is surely a blessing for the Christian. when in doubt, do as Christ! Luke 4:16
More scripture on the subject.
Matthew 18:15″If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won him over. 16″But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.…
Good article Ivar. We are called to be ‘loving’ fruit inspectors. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth for evil fruit. very tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” Mt.7:15-20. Avoid them! I remember what I was like before I was a Christian. When the Holy Ghost who is God comes to live inside you things change. God changes us. We love God, we want to obey God. As a born again Christian I don’t want to sin and look forward to the day when I will no longer be able to. But do I sin on purpose? Certainly Not! What did Paul say? “But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.” 1 Corinthians 8:9 and “What shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Romans 6:1. Who are in the churches now? People who think it is okay for homosexuals not only to enter in and even marry, and to also become clergy. People who live together without being married, people who lie and ask others to lie for them. Pastors who plagiarize sermons, etc. Are these people Christians? Goats? I say goats. Here are the commandments that Paul and Peter specified to teach, ” Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangeled, and from blood.” Acts 15:20 What did John say? “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and so those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of the Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him and He in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.” John3:22-24. Blessings!
Dear nannette
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
God changes us. We love God, we want to obey God. As a born again Christian I don’t want to sin and look forward to the day when I will no longer be able to. But do I sin on purpose? Certainly Not!
My reply:
This is the essense. God living inside us, do not give us permission to sin. We have to rebell and overrule the Holy Spirit to be able to sin on purpose. If we set the command of God aside, we do it conveniantly becasue we want to live according to the desires of the flesh.
Many claimed to be Christians live in ignorance, and pretend that this verse is not there in the Bible.
1.John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
The key word is “abide”. You have to have God reigning on the inside. He surely desire to see you obey Him. You have to fear God inside your heart. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, the lawgiver!…
He can leave you, just like He left the Temple in Jerusalem. If you treat Him with contempt, or take Him for granted….
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have. for He hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” Hebrews 13:5. I believe if a person is ‘born again’ John 3, your salvation is final. You cannot be unborn again. We can grieve the Holy Spirit, we need to get back in fellowship. 1 John 1:8-10. When we accept Jesus as our personal Savior, all our sins are forgiven past, present and future. Blessings!
Hi Ivar,
You said: “Philippians 2:12–
‘Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;’ If we could not lose our salvation, there was neither a need for trembling, and no need to fear God.”
My reply: This text is often misused. It instills needless fear of a loss of salvation when it is taught as a warning that it means that salvation can be lost. It is a grave error of interpretation that causes some to turn their back on faith before they ever gain salvation. Our God is a God of love and mercy–“slow to anger and abiding in love”. How could that be true if He would snatch our salvation away from us for a lack of works? How could one ever know that one had enough good works (or lack of bad ones) or even devotion? I am reminded of my six-year-old cousin, a Roman Catholic, who mistakenly ate a small piece of baloney before realizing the day was Friday. This was in the day when the RCC had determined that eating meat on Friday was a “mortal sin”. My little cousin was convinced that she would be going to hell, should she have the misfortune to die before attending the confessional. She was inconsolable until she convinced her mother to ask their priest to hear her confession that evening.
Not only the Calvinists have taught that you cannot lose your salvation. A number of pre-RCC Scripture interpreters taught it as well. Remember that the teachings of the Apostles were circulated in the very early churches from the beginning–see Acts 2:42. Paul is unlikely to be encouraging believers to live in a continuous condition of fear of loss of salvation and being sent to hell upon death. That would contradict his many other teachings on confidence in the God who authors our salvation. If that was his intent, why would he have said at the beginning of Philippians (in 1:6): “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.” ??
If Philippians 2:12 does not mean that you can lose your salvation, what does “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” actually mean? The Greek word translated “fear” in this context can equally mean “reverence” or “respect.” The Apostle uses the very same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) when he speaks of Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him “with fear and trembling,” It is clear that his meaning is that the people of God received Titus with humility and respect for his office as a minister of Christ’s gospel. Paul himself says that he came to the Corinthian church in “weakness and fear, and with much trembling” (1 Corinthians 2:3). He often expressed awe in the tremendous responsibility that he had been given.
The Greek verb translated “work out” means “to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition.” In pursuing obedience, during the process of sanctification, we are submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit in us, Who is in the process of perfecting our faith. Paul explains that further in Philippians 3. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14) and restraining himself (he likens it to an athlete’s training repeatedly) to accept the working of the Holy Spirit in opposition to his own flesh. The “trembling” he experiences is undoubtedly the excitement and enthusiasm that Christians are supposed to have, as they experience the Holy Spirit’s work in their lives. During the process of sanctification, a believer experiences a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. “Trembling” can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of great purpose, Paul says in 2 Cor.12:10 “That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” indicating his total dependence on God to be the “author and finisher” (see Hebrews 12:2) of his faith. Submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—as one of the means by which the Holy Spirit does His work–renewing our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2). We should note here that the Holy Spirit will NEVER ask you to do anything that violates the Word of God. Fear of God is a positive “fear” and one that was sincerely lacking in the degenerated Judaism that was so cruelly dominated by the Romans.
God said the Commandments are ‘Forever’ and you say they are not. you cant even discern between the writings of Moses and the finger of the Creator.
now you are trying to ‘correct’ someone=) ???
Visitor to Earth,
I explained to you the reason why the word “olam” in the Hebrew text does not mean “eternally” but only for some definite period of time. If you could stir yourself to read it, you might learn something, Tony. Otherwise, I fear for your soul as one involved in a cult such as the SDA which has been heavily influenced by Ellen G. White’s Satanic teaching. Jonah wrote a very good explanation of what the SDAs are all about in the “Catholic Church is a Pagan Cult” thread. You should go back there and try to refute what he has said, though I strongly doubt that you can.
One post script, Tony. We are all here to teach each other. NO ONE, including me, has a lockup on the proper interpretation of the Bible. The problem that you appear to have is that you think that the SDAs have all the truth and THAT is a grave error on your part.
Dear job3627
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
After reading a 100 lines reply, that try it’s best to set aside the Commandments of God for human reasoning and theology, I can not come to any other conclusion: You simply do not believe the Word of God.
You belive in your own interpreations, and what the spirit you have accepted feeds you with. I have already warned the readers not to listen to your lawlessness.
How you could ever conclude that is beyond me, Ivar. I have already said that the Holy Spirit would NEVER ask one to do anything that is in violation of the Word of God. You have committed a grave error in your “evaluation” of me. I sincerely hope you will find your way to grace and truth before it is too late for you. You have rejected the RCC, but their indoctrination has apparently greatly influenced your thinking. Keep on reading the Bible with a sincere and humble heart and you will eventually rid yourself of the religious spirit that seems to be controlling your thinking. Did you ever wonder why you have so much trouble with real Christians and attract flattering cult-followers like the SDA fellow, Visitor to Earth. Pride is a terrible thing, Ivar. It grieves the Holy Spirit and stops His work in us. Take this for a sincere concern for your soul, please. If you continue in the way that you are going toward an obsession with the law as opposed to the grace of God, you can end up in a very ugly place. I am praying for you.
Dear job3627.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
If you continue in the way that you are going toward an obsession with the law as opposed to the grace of God, you can end up in a very ugly place. I am praying for you.
My reply:
You get the last words. Any more comments on this topic, are not welcommed.
Job,
the article above is very well written and even you should be able to understand it. please spread your false doctrines elsewhere. better yet, pray for forgiveness and guidance and STOP with such sad, evil things.
Dear Visitor to Earth =)
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
The SDA seems to be obsessed with claiming that the Sabbath must be kept on Saturday, and that anyone who do not agree with the SDA is lost. Please put an end to this debate, before I put my foot down. This debate is fruitless, has not changed anything, since the positions are well known.
No man is saved by His obserance of the Sabbath. Feel free to celebrate the Biblical Sabbath, that starts at sun down on Friday evening. And this will be the end of this round of Sabatical claims and counterclaims.
no ‘obsession’ Sir, it is simply a Biblical fact that we proudly love sharing, as all Christians should, especially when the Bible shows this in Rev 14 as being of utmost importance.
while the understanding of the Sabbath is one that is shared by many Christian denominations (over 500 from what i have been informed of !) it is a very important message for the signs of the times (which i surely believe we are in). i do see, however, that some will not see the Biblical significance. with that, yes, for now, it is an issue past (with them, never with believers). as this is what believers will be spreading during these last days (again Rev 14).
while no man is saved with this, understanding the Sabbath has opened the door to a vast understanding of the Bible! i was blessed to dig, while secluded overseas and was greatly blessed when He did show me this, since it has been trampled on so much, just as in the Bible!
regardless, great article! i have saved the pic for my screensaver and the vibrant colors are great. i was not too sure that it would enlarge and show so well!
=) God bless Sir!
No Job,
while i am growing constantly in the Word, i only add what i think i have a good understanding of. but yet, you may label me as you wish.
keep it simple. when the Lord says forever, and the last blessings of the Bible is for those ‘who keep’ them, and Heaven will be celebrating every Sabbath (Isaiah 66:23), it is a safe bet that Christians will continue in the Commandments, including the longest and most forgotten One.
Good luck to you Sir.
“Good luck to you Sir.”
A true Christian doesn’t believe in “luck”–a thoroughly pagan concept. 🙂
in the above, it is written ‘You have to let Him make you a subject of his Lordship.’
i have read ‘God loves you enough to accept you where you are at, but He loves you too much to leave you there’.
growing in Christ is to constantly study and learn and follow His Word!
i love that!
Maranatha!
Dear Visitor to Earth
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Jesus commands us to do good on the Sabbath. His disciples walked, riped, eat, taught, healed, etc. They did the same, all the other days of the week too.
The whole idea behind the Sabbath, is that both God and men needs to rest. Not the enforced Sabbath restrictions. Man has added all kinds of stuff to the modern day understanding of God’s original intention: The Sabbath was made for man.
A legalistic approch to the Sabbath, makes you a pharisee kind of person. The SDA claim that all must follow their understanding of the law of the Sabbath. I would rather prefere to make Jesus my Lord of the Sabbath, and follow His example.
Luke 6:1-5
Now it happened on the second Sabbath after the first that He went through the grainfields. And His disciples plucked the heads of grain and ate them, rubbing them in their hands. And some of the Pharisees said to them, “Why are you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath?”
But Jesus answering them said, “Have you not even read this, what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: how he went into the house of God, took and ate the showbread, and also gave some to those with him, which is not lawful for any but the priests to eat?” And He said to them, “The Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”
This thread has been a very interesting read indeed.
A person must do as Paul advised and ‘be like one of the noble Jews of Berea, listen (or in this case read) and then go to the scripture and see if what is being taught is true.
They were described as noble because they weren’t argumentative, they simply went away and studied scripture.
Paul is an interesting character because he was not called at the same time as the other Apostles, but, he describes himself as one, and we have his testimony which describes the circumstances of his being blinded, reduced to a dependant humbled person, delivered to the Apostles to be taught the significance of Christ and what His sacrifice had fulfilled in the Prophets. Being brought low he was forced to consider all he had done in the name of God, ridding Judea of Christians believing them to be a heretical cult.
Given that he had murdered many, he now knew that his salvation for his sin of murder depended on his trust in the blood of the Lamb of God, not of his works.
However, the law ‘thou shall not kill’ revealed his sin, he could identify himself as a sinner and that he needed salvation and he could only receive it from one source.
We are living in an age 2000 years since the Lord Jesus Christ came and trained the first Apostles.
Paul taught that there were already people among the faithful teaching falsehoods.
There should be no doubt that what was happening then is out of control now.
Paul being and Apostle had received something that many today only think they have received.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit.
His words have been quoted in this thread, people don’t take into account that He could discern that his audience were called individuals not just people who would like to avoid hell.
It is written ‘many are called, but few are chosen’.
Paul had been called AND chosen, whilst the people he spoke to had been called and not chosen to be an Apostle.
But in these days, many people have been led by false teachers, to believe they can decide for themselves if they have been called, and some are even led to believe that they have been chosen to minister when they haven’t even been called.
Can a person correct any of this?
No.
Jesus taught through His parables, and we have to apply what He taught.
Consider the parable of the sower in the field.
Jesus came and sowed the truth in the world.
Then He ascended to heaven.
Then others came and sowed tares (falsehoods).
The servants asked if they should weed out the tares and the Master said No to leave them till the harvest when they will be gathered first and thrown into the fire, then the proper harvest will commence.
Whilst a person can identify tares, they cannot remove them, the falsehoods and those who continue to teach them will remain.
There have been many errors taught over the last 1900 plus years, it is impossible for them to be corrected or removed.
One statement mentioned in this thread is ‘we are taught to go through the narrow gate’.
Scripture says that ‘few will find it’.
Therefore, we should be searching for that narrow gate, if we do find it, we will go through but we will not be able to lead others to it, or help them through…
We have a responsibility to study scripture, apply what we learn in our daily lives and remember that our salvation is not free. It came at a cost.
God, Our Father who art in Heaven, gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
Jesus went to the slaughter in obedience to His Father saying ‘not my will, but your will be done’.
He suffered indescribably and His blood paid for us.
Those who were bought, were slaves to sin.
As slave is one who is locked into a situation with no hope of escape. Unless his master takes him to market and puts him up for sale.
Many are called, but few are chosen.
If we have been called, then we are on the market for purchase from our master – sin. If we accept that we have been bought then we must accept that we owe the one who paid the price and we cannot ever repay Him for what He did.
However, once we start our walk with Him, our behaviour will change, it will be the fruit of His spirit at work in us.
Now, consider the parable of the talents.
We are all different, some have three talents, some two, some one.
Irrespective, we all must work towards being able to present our Master with an increase on His investment in us.
We shouldn’t expect more of someone than is expected by our Master and we shouldn’t stifle growth in another either. We shouldn’t compare ourselves too literally as we are all work in progress, yet we must also acknowledge some will have received the Word readily at first and then shrivelled up like a seed sown on stoney ground.
We can expect to discover people repeating falsehoods because they haven’t gone to the scriptures to see if what they have been taught is true.
We can determine whether they have a love for the truth or lies, and then we may have to walk away from them if the prefer the lies, because the truth is not in them.
Of course, the Lord Jesus did teach us to do something and if we do it, He will keep His promise.
He said ‘seek first the Kingdom of God, and His Righteousness, and ALL things will be added to you’.
Do the above and He will add to each one according to his/her needs.
God bless everyone.
You said:
[ “But in these days, many people have been led by false teachers, to believe they can decide for themselves if they have been called, and some are even led to believe that they have been chosen to minister when they haven’t even been called.
Can a person correct any of this?
No. ]
Who do you say has the power and authority to tell who has been called and chosen to minister?
You say ‘who do you say has the power and authority to tell who has been called and chosen to minister?’
The Lord Jesus Christ said ‘seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL things will be added to you’.
Only the Lord Jesus can add to you the ability to discern whether someone has been called.
And, He can also impart to you the ability to discern whether a minister is serving Him or not.
But no-one can teach you how to do this.
A person can repeat what the saints have already said in the hope that it is applied by the hearer.
Paul said ‘be like the noble Jews of Berea’.
I say, Do as Christ taught ‘seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and ALL things will be added to you’.
One of the ALL things He will add to you, is the ability to listen patiently, and then go to the scriptures and see that what has been taught is true.
If what has been taught is true, then the person who said it, is working for His Master who taught the truth.
The title of this thread contains advice ‘reject cheap grace Bible teachers’.
Jude 1:
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
The Bible is written to ‘them that are sanctified (set aside) by God the Father, preserved in Jesus Christ (sealed by His blood) and called.
If a person is indeed called then, through the Bible he will learn how to identify others who are called. But, he will not have the authority to tell anyone they aren’t called because the Father may yet call them at a time of His choosing.
Each of us has responsibility to study Gods Word and apply what we learn in our lives, and we will grow accordingly.
Take the parable of the ten virgins.
Five were wise, they prepared and made sure they had enough oil for the lamps.
Five were foolish and didn’t prepare, when the bridegroom came they weren’t ready and they asked the wise virgins to sell them some of their oil.
The wise virgins refused, they trimmed their wicks, lit their lamps advised the foolish to go and buy oil and while they were gone, the wise virgins went in.
The Bible is the source of the oil, you have time now to study it and pray for help in understanding it and applying what you learn in your life. In doing this you will be buying oil so that you are prepared.
By asking me, that question, you are in effect asking me for oil, and I say, go buy some while you have the time.
I think I agree with you mostly. I didn’t consider myself asking for oil. What about the parable of the servant who buried his gold? If you have some knowledge what good is it to keep it to yourself?
But yes,Jesus is the power an authority. Since He isn’t here in person and all the apostles are gone, all ministers are “self appointed”, and I agree that all we have to tell the good teachers from the bad are the scriptures and our own conscience.
GOD
Alistair, your comments frost me. You said, “The Bible is the source of oil”. You are not reading that parable correctly. Oil is a picture of the Holy Spirit. You cannot buy the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, without oil/the Holy Spirit the Bible cannot be understood! This parable is the difference between born again virgins and not born again virgins. Pretender Christians and or unsaved Jews, or call them the Laodicean Church who needs to call upon the Lord and ask Him to save them. God sends the Helper to the wise virgins who have called upon the Lord to save them. Rev. 3:14-22. “They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Titus 1:16. “And then will I profess unto them, I never new you. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23. “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost. as your fathers did, so do ye.” Acts 7:51 “But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26. As for the Seventh Day Adventists, I advise that you come out of her! Ellen G. White has been proven a ‘false prophetess’ over and over and a plagiarist among other things. If you insist to live under the law then you must live under the entire 300 plus rules. You can’t do it! Are you Jews who call your selves Seventh day Adventist? Jesus said, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart. and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Matthew 11:29&30. Blessings
Hi Nannette.
The Bible teaches that we should not add or take away.
You say correctly that the Bible cannot be understood without the helper.
In the parable of the virgins there is no mention of some being born again and some not.
The parable simply states that five were wise and five were foolish.
The oil in the parable suggests that five of the virgins had some knowledge or forethought that the foolish virgins did not.
Consider, if you are going to carry a lamp, you would have an inkling you might need to use it. If the need to use it arises, you don’t know how long you will need to use it for, so even it had some oil in it, it would be a good idea to carry more.
The parable teaches us that the bridegroom was delayed, darkness fell.
There is an implication that if darkness fell, the virgins had to use their lamps.
We can read into it because when the bridegroom did arrive the wise virgins trimmed the wicks on their lamps lit them and went in.
In the 70’s in the UK we had blackouts, we had oil lamps, the oil lamps when they ran out of oil burnt the wicks for a short time. In order to get good light from them, the charred wick needed to be trimmed before lighting.
The wise virgins were prepared and knew what to do when the bridegroom came.
Now, the above is a parable, it is an overview of something else, a bigger story.
We know who the bridegroom is, it’s the Lord Jesus Christ.
The virgins are the church, some apply Pauls advice, they will be like the Noble Jews of Berea, they will go to the scriptures to see if what they are being taught is true. They are getting prepared.
The foolish attend but don’t do any personal study at all believing that attendance is enough.
As in the parable, before Jesus does come, there is going to be a period of darkness.
The Bible prophecies that there will be a famine of the Word of God. It will not be possible to go and get prepared.
We might no know the precise time of the bridegrooms coming, but, the parable teaches us to use our time to prepare.
The wise virgins were prepared, they went into the bridegroom.
Now, the parable does not say that either group of virgins were born again or not born again when they were called or selected to prepare themselves.
But the wise virgins went in.
It is written that unless a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God and the wise ones entered.
The possibility is, they were born again at the point of lighting the lamps and the door opening and them being allowed in. But I am saying this based on the fact that in the parable there was a point where the door opened to those who were ready.
And was shut to the rest.
You go on to to tie together what was said to the foolish virgins
‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
And what the Lord says He will say to the false teachers/prophets who present themselves to Him on the day of judgement.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
There is a difference between the foolish virgins and the above.
The foolish virgins did nothing, while the false teachers and prophets have been called ‘workers of lawlessness’.
They ‘did’ something, but what they did was not the ‘will of the Father in heaven.
So, the foolish virgins were given an opportunity and wasted it, the workers of lawlessness were never serving God ever, but they presented themselves as such.
This is why we have to seek first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness so that ALL things can be added to us.
God Bless
Dear Alister
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Before you write more long or shorter comments, plase answer this question:
1. Is Jesus always 100 percent man and 100 per cent God, in One person, as He is brithed into this World?
Peace to you too Ivar.
Your question is written poor English,.
You ask.
1. Is Jesus always 100 percent man and 100 per cent God, in One person, as He is brithed into this World?
What is ‘brithed’?
Jesus was born of Mary.
She was instructed to call Him Emmanuel which means God with us.
Therefore, even though He was born human, He was both human and God at the same time.
It cannot be disputed that Jesus when He was born, and raised to adulthood, was still both human and God.
He then completed His ministry as a human being and as the Lamb of God was crucified and died on the cross, was buried for three days and three nights fulfilling the sign of Jonah that He said was the only sign the Pharisees would be given.
Having died He rose from the dead.
Now looking at the detail, when the women realised who He was, He asked them not to touch Him as He had yet to be gorified by the Father.
As Jesus’ ministry progressed He is identified as Emmanuel – God with us.
Yeshua – Salvation.
The Lamb of God to name a few.
As well as being both man and God, He also through His titles, has specific tasks to fulfil and the titles reveal what they are.
When the women met Him in the garden near the open tomb He had yet to be glorified by the Father.
Jesus had lived among man as a man and God with us, He went as the Lamb to the slaughter, the perfect sacrifice for our salvation.
Having completed that He was to ascend to heaven to be glorified.
Those who God has called, who do what the wise Virgins did will do what God calls them to do, and in due course they too will be glorified by God.
This is what happens in the parable of the talents.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
But your question uses the word ‘Is’ at the start.
This would imply that you are asking ‘Is Jesus 100% man and 100% God’ today.
Does the Bible teach that Jesus is still 100% man and 100% God today?
Dear Alistair
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You asked:
But your question uses the word ‘Is’ at the start. This would imply that you are asking ‘Is Jesus 100% man and 100% God’ today. Does the Bible teach that Jesus is still 100% man and 100% God today?
My reply:
Who is seated in Heaven, at the right hand of the Father? I will give you three options. You can add more if you like:
1. A frog, 2. A spirit. 3. The man Jesus the Messiah (also called Christ).
Now you enlighten us.
Peace to you Ivar and your readers.
I pray you have noted that I have honoured your request not to answer any more questions from others until I have answered yours.
You responded to my question as follows:-
Who is seated in Heaven, at the right hand of the Father? I will give you three options. You can add more if you like:
1. A frog, 2. A spirit. 3. The man Jesus Christ.
We have to consider what scripture says on this subject.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
I have no doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ sits at the Right hand of His Father God in heaven.
There seems to be confusion about what He looks like now, what form He has is mortal or immortal.
A mortal person needs Oxygen and food to sustain him, the Lord Jesus Christ has gone beyond mortality to immortality.
He therefore has the image of mortal man but not the restrictions of being mortal.
Let us look to scripture for the detail of what is taught.
Jesus said
Matthew 16 verse 28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Some of the individuals present would, before they died see Him – The Lord Jesus Christ coming in His kingdom, they would get a preview.
Six days later, Jesus took Peter, James and John his brother, just three witnesses up apart on the mountain.
Matthew 17 verses 2 and 3
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
He still had the image of a man, but His appearance was different.
Revelation 1 verses 12 to 17
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last,
18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.
He has the image of a man, but His appearance is glorified significantly.
John had seen Jesus transfigured, but we can see from the above, that despite this John fell to his face as if dead, but the Lord laid His Right hand on Him and said ‘fear not, I am the first the last’.
We should not be going round in circles trying to score points off one another concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and His present form,
The false teachers who present themselves before Him to be judged, do not fall on their faces as John did, they stand before Him and give an accout of their works performed in His name.
We owe the Lord Jesus respect and we do not honour Him by nit picking.
Now, there are some questions to answer briefly.
Ed Jones asked ‘what about the parable of the servant who buried his gold?’
My answer, I place gold before the readers of this thread on three occasions, if they ask the Lord for help and then read the thread again, He may guide them to the treasure.
Job asked ‘Are you a gnostic?’
I am not gnostic, knowledge does not bring salvation, salvation comes by the blood of the Lamb of God, whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
I agree with Jobs response that Christ is 100% resurrect man and is and always has been God.
Nannette says ‘you cannot buy the Holy Spirit’.
Simon the sorcerer tried to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit with money. And it is true, we cannot buy the gifts of the Holy Spirit with money.
However
Isaiah 55
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
We cannot buy with money, but we are called to buy without money.
What have we got?
Time.
The Bible is our source, we must dilligently study it, apply it in our lives and we will grow.
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The Bible has a purpose and it comes from the highest authority our Creator God, the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
We can establish sound doctrine and apply it in our lives.
We can submit ourselves to it’s instruction and we allow it to correct us and through the Scripture we can learn righteousness.
Not self righteousness but to grow so that when God considers us and the way we conduct ourselves He will consider us righteous as He did Abraham,
Dear Alistair
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
I agree with Jobs response that Christ is 100% resurrect man and is and always has been God.
My reply:
Why is this important? Because your acoknowledgement is a prof that you have have understood the basics of Biblical Jesus, and do not present to us one of the satanic copies.
Related to the question: Is there oxygen in heaven? Are the souls in need of an atmospehere?
Interesting stuff, but. Since the Bible do not reveal this, it is simply pointless to speculate. But if you ask for my oppinion. Since Jesus exists beyond time, space, and His creation, the answer is probably not. Because the day we are transformed into His likeness, we will be in the presence of this eternal being. Forever. An existense not fully understandable because of the limitation of our human mind.
The resurection doesn’t make men Gods. God is more a position of authority. Therefore it doesn’t change that Jesus was a Man. What changes for man is mortality. As humans we are mortal in weak flesh, At the resurrection people put on the same immortality.
1 cor. 15:54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
Alister, You asked, “Does the Bible teach that Jesus is still 100% man and God today?” Obviously! Jesus was at the beginning, “And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepteth upon the earth.” Genesis 1:26 “In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was GOD.” John 1:1 “And the WORD was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:14 “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: In who we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE. FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers; All things were CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.. FOR IT PLEASED THE FATHER THAT IN HIM SHOULD ALL FULNESS DWELL. Colossians 1:12-19 “And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, “FEAR NOT; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST; I AM HE THAT LIVETH, AND WAS DEAD; AND, BEHOLD , I AM ALIVE FOR EVERMORE, AMEN; AND HAVE THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH.” Revelation 1:17-18.
Hi,ivarfjeld
Are you a Pentecostal ??,Are you a Jew or Indian ???,
All Human beings are more worth full to EL-ELOHIM, No Specialty for Jews.
Jesus Christ Is Jehova , The King,Priest & JUdge.Image of Invisible GOD.
EL-ELOHIM
Hi Alistair,
You wrote: “…The Bible is the source of the oil, you have time now to study it and pray for help in understanding it and applying what you learn in your life. In doing this you will be buying oil so that you are prepared…”
My reply: Bible interpreters typically see oil as a symbol of the Holy Spirit (as do I) and one scripture, in particular links oil to the Holy Spirit directly:
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed. . . . (from Luke 4:18 which is, of course, a restatement of Isaiah 61:1-2)
I believe that the oil of anointing stands as a physical representation of Jesus having the Holy Spirit “without measure or limit”–in the words of John the Baptist (John 3:34). In noting this, John the Baptist further identifies Jesus as being the “Anointed One,” (the meaning of the word “Messiah,” as you likely know) and thus the Holy One of Israel. John the Baptist had already, on a previous occasion, identified Jesus/Yeshua as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29) Interestingly, John the Baptist also says, “Those who believe Him discover that God is true.” (John 3:33).
Without the Holy Spirit lighting our journey through the Word, we will not correctly understand it. One must be “born from above” by the Spirit in order to be able to make sense of it. As Jesus observed, in His discussion with Nicodemus, “…The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water [a common symbol of the word of God–see Ephesians 5:26] and the Spirit. Humans can only reproduce human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven.” And then Jesus likens the Holy Spirit to the wind, indicating that the Holy Spirit is sent from heaven to whomever the Father chooses. And we know from John 6:37 that, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” And who does the Father bless with this miracle? Jesus boldly tells us in the Beatitudes of Matthew 5.
We know that no one can actually BE a true believer without the Holy Spirit (see Romans 8:9) The Apostle Paul makes what must have been a startling statement in Romans 9:30-32, that, “…The Gentiles have been made right with God by faith, even though they were not seeking Him. But the Jews who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law and being good instead of depending on faith.”
Hi Job3627
You say ‘bible interpreters’ a plural reference to a number of nameless individuals.
You then quote the passage from Luke and Isaiah.
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed. . . .
We are instructed not to add or take away.
But, in the above passage where the word ‘anointed’ has been used, you have been led to assume that it refers to having been anointed with ‘oil’ of anointing, when oil is not mentioned at all.
If we put the verse you quote into context.
We see that Our Father in heaven had arranged for His Son to attend Synagogue on the day that passage was due to be read from the scroll and the Son would be the one to read it aloud.
The Father arranged it for the Son to declare His purpose to the congregation giving those who heard an opportunity to respond to His calling.
Let us look at another passage from Isaiah.
Isaiah 55:
1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
We see that we can ‘buy’ and we do not need money to make the purchase.
But there is something that we will have to sacrifice – time, our time, if we are thirsty for knowledge we must go to the source and spend time studying and meditating on the Bible and what it teaches.
We can read what others think the intention of scripture is, and we can go back a review what scripture has to say, but if we discover that the individual or individuals have added or assumed then we have take what scriptures say to be true and the private interpretation to be compromised.
Having added the assumption that the word ‘anointed’ in the passage quoted is referring to ‘oil of anointing’ when it does not, the remainder of your post starts to fall apart.
I do agree that without the Holy Spirit we cannot understand scripture, but, He gives to each a measure. Like in the parable of the talents, He gives according to His will. Therefore our understanding will reflect this.
You refer to the Lords discussion with Nicodemus, yet in your reference to that discussion you say Jesus taught you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless you have been born of water.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
See from the scriptures Jesus taught it differently to you.
He said Except a man be born of water AND of the spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Nicodemus understood the first part.
All humans are born of water.
We are carried in the womb protected by amniotic fluid, when gestation is complete the waters break and we are born of water.
Nicodemus understood that he had experiences the first birth of water, he had difficulty understanding the second birth asking how can a man re-enter the womb to be born physically again.
Jesus goes on to explain Himself.
The first water birth is ‘of the flesh’ the second is ‘of the spirit’ it is not physical.
There is an assumption that when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus refarding being ‘born of water’, He was alluding to something more than simple natural childbirth. That Jesus was referring to water as something mysterious that needs interpretation.
Jesus is our example, He came as God with us, born of a woman – born of water first.
He was crucified and lay dead for three days and three nights, he experienced resurrection from the dead. He appeared to His disciples in various places.
He appeared to them in a locked room not once but twice.
How did He get into that locked room.
He had been born of the spirit and could get wherever He needs to be – nothing can get in His way because He became Spirit, death has no hold over Him, He now has everlasting life with the Father in Heaven.
Unless a man be born again (of the spirit) he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus we know has entered the Kingdom of God, He was born a man, He had to go through death and be born of the spirit to get to where He is.
John 13
36 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward.”
This does open up another discussion.
What we are taught about when we are born again and what the scriptures actually say on the subject.
Remember, we have been told to look for the narrow gate.
Few of us will find it – scriptures explain why.
But Jesus told Simon Peter that he could not go where He was going, until ‘afterward’.
So, Simon Peter at the point of that conversation with the Lord Jesus Christ had not been ‘born again’.
Are you a Gnostic, Alistair? I have encountered them before on other Christian websites. I’m just asking because you seem to be implying that we are saved by our knowledge of the Scriptures. We are not saved by knowledge. We are saved by believing, Paul said, “Salvation that comes from trusting Christ–which is the message we preach—is already within easy reach. In fact, the Scriptures say, ‘The message is close at hand; it is on your lips and in your heart’. For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.” (Romans 10:8-10 NLT)
By the way, I don’t think I have made any more assumptions than you have. You can’t know that Peter had not been ‘born again” at the point of the John 13:36 passage. That conversation took place in the Upper Room on the night before the Crucifixion. But, Peter had already made his declaration of faith some time before that. Peter’s is the bedrock testimony of the Church from Matthew 16:16, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.”
What did you mean by your statement that Jesus was born a man? He was, at the same time, all God, as well as all human. He was born that way.
Jesus is God, not just a man. Jesus is 100% man, 100% God. To clear up gnostisim read 1 John and also John 1:1. Gnostism inverts the truth making satan the redeemer and Jesus the bad guy. The world is messed up! Proof the Noah movie. They made Noah the bad guy. As for Alistar you need to study more. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=llvhZUCB0Jg
Alastair,
You said: “He had been born of the spirit and could get wherever He needs to be – nothing can get in His way because He became Spirit, death has no hold over Him, He now has everlasting life with the Father in Heaven.”
My reply: Jesus ALWAYS had everlasting life with the Father–He, in His pre-incarnate form, experienced everlasting life with the Father in Heaven. From everlasting past to everlasting future, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are One.
Alistair,
You ask: “Does the Bible teach that Jesus is still 100% man and 100% God today?”
My reply: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…” (1 Timothy 2:5 KJV) Since this was written after the Resurrection, we are led to believe that Jesus lives in the form of 100% resurrected man AND 100% God.
Alistair,
The sophists in the RCC in the days of Martin Luther, could, with “sophisticated” arguments “prove” all kinds of theological error and absurdity, thinking that somehow they were somehow able to analyze the Scriptures better than those who stuck to the literal interpretation of the Bible. Martin Luther fought against the papists and the sophists who supported the hierarchy of the RCC. He considered it the influence of the Gnostics–the ancient foe of the orthodox faith.
By the way, Alistair, you never answered my question–are you a Gnostic?
Alistair,
You said: “…We should not be going round in circles trying to score points off one another concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and His present form…”
That is a bit presumptuous of you to judge that we are doing that. I, for one, was merely trying to establish whether or not you held to orthodoxy. All any of us have is the Scripture (including you). You have hinted that you think you somehow have some kind of superior knowledge and that only you are not a “false teacher.” Not a lot of humility in that, Alistair. We ALL fail to have perfect knowledge. We keep studying and teach each other. That is all we have been given. That is all we need. I am sincerely glad to hear that you are not a Gnostic. Do you mind if I ask what kind of church you attend–Methodist, Baptist, etc.?
Hello Job, peace to you.
If you feel that my comment was presumptious then I am sorry that is the impression you got.
You have enquired of me concerning gnosticism, now orthodoxy and what denomination I am.
If you get the impression through my comments that the only individual who is not a false teacher is me, through some sort of superior knowledge then I am sorry for that too.
All I have is my Bible, the answers are in there.
You ask what kind of church I attend.
As a child my family attended a Plymouth Brethren chapel.
I just about remember the sombre dress code, men only Sunday morning, Sunday school with my dad as the teacher and full family evening services.
A little later my parents added in attendance to a house fellowship after the Sunday evening service.
A little later, my father added in weekly Bible study every tuesday with lots of other local children coming to the house.
A little later when I was 8, my father got involved with a youth club which included a prayer and worship session at the end.
I began to feel overwhelmed.
I had school homework, plus all these additional activities.
At age 8 a speaker came to the youth club, we were told that as we were we would go to hell, but if we accept Jesus into our hearts we would go to heaven. That is the short version.
We were asked to raise a hand if we wanted to invite Jesus in and I put my hand up. Because I didn’t want to go to hell!
No-one saw my hand and I was relieved but troubled at the same time.
In the mini bus I told my dad quietly that nobody had seen my hand go up.
He ripped on the handbrake, killed the engine and dragged me out of the bus and into the building, I was absolutely petrified and in tears at his response to the point that all I can remember is the adults inviting Jesus in and me inwardly saying ‘no Lord not for me’. I was 8 years old and now petrified that I would go to hell.
My dad was convinced that on that night his son was ‘born again’.
He wasn’t to know but I had taken on board that God knows the heart of a person, so He knew what my heart had said that night, but of course my dad didn’t and so he didn’t know that my heart was wrong.
All those who had put their hands up that evening were baptised in the river, I refused to be baptised, there were tantrums, but for some reason, my older brother who got baptised was allowed to where long trousers, but my mother insisted that I would wear short. I refused unless she let me wear long ones, and she wouldn’t back down, so my mother and father thought that my only reason for not being baptised was vanity, but the real reason my heart was not right with God.
As far as attending religious services I was there in body but not in spirit, I was dead inside.
The Chapel gradually dwindled down, the housefellowship gradually took off and then the leaders there went to Africa and my parents started attending different places. I was there in body too. But sometimes I did hear things, things that I could tell from the Bible study sessions at home when I was younger, didn’t make sense, but, my heart was not right with God, I was still a child going on for 12 and you do not question your elders.
About this time, my dads business collapsed.
My mother and father ‘felt’ they were being ‘called’ to join a fellowship of 300 miles from where we had been living all my life. I was distraught, my parents asked a leading question ‘how would you like to live by the seaside?’.
Not ‘how would you feel about us moving 300 miles to join a cult?’
The family moved, my dad was made an elder, my heart was still not right, but being able to play the piano I was able to make attendance bearable by playing when the regular pianist was unable to attend.
My dad thought it was fantastic, he didn’t know that I was taking it up a key and up a key to force the people to strain their voices, seeing how high I could make them go! It’s not funny, I was doing wrong my heart was wrong and I was abusing a position of trust, but by then, if I could do anything to annoy and hurt those who said the loved me, I would do it.
One day my dad revealed that if any of his five sons started smoking, it would really cut him deep. I went to the shop, bought my first packet of cigarettes, sat on the wall opposite our house in full view and lit up. He beat me, destroy the ciggies, so I bought some more and repeated the excercise.
He gave up, and I was hooked on nicotine, and really scared when I couldn’t give up.
My dad was in an elders meeting when he raiised a matter of grave concern, about the way the ‘cult’ was operating, he cited through scripture that it had to change. The other elders refused so my dad walked out.
The whole thing was gone in weeks, I was overjoyed, my dad was crushed and blamed himself for the collapse.
We moved away from that location and my dad half heartedly attended another house fellowship but he didn’t try to get us involved.
I got married and out of the blue we started to receive ‘Victory’ magazines in the post.
It transpired that my parents had put me on the mailing list with Kenneth Copeland ministries. This caused grief in my home.
The magazines would come through the front door, out through the backdoor and into the bin. But the arguments continued.
I wrote to KCM and asked them to remove my name and address from their mailing list and that stopped. Peace restored.
There was no more attempts until one year my mother invited us to spend new years eve with them. My wife readily accepted, and I was shocked, she didn’t understand. My parents never celebrated new years eve, I smelled a rat.
We ended up ina happy clappy pentecostal church, our children asleep on our laps at first and under the chairs when it got to uncomfortable to hold them and all we wanted was to sleep. My wife never readily accepted an invitation again.
By now I think I was 30 ish, and I avoided my parents company especially my dads because it was Ken and Gloria this and Ken and Gloria that.
When I was about 46, one of my brothers fell ill with septicemia and was on life support, he had learning difficulties, was paralysed from birth and doctors were suggesting they keep him comfortable and let him go.
My dad was distraught, my brother had not been converted despite his best efforts.
Some of the scriptures I knew from childhood were under the surface.
John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
My Dad asked me over the phone to agree with him as he asked the God in Jesus name to have mercy on my brother and guide the doctors treating him to identify the source of the infection and cure it.
I agreed with my dad.
I put the phone down, it rang straight away, my youngest brother said if you don’t come now you will not see ****** alive.
I said I couldn’t come, I had witnessed my fathers prayer, if I went it would have been a demonstration of unbelief, so much to his shock I didn’t go.
The doctors went into my brother the next day, he had grown stronger throughout the night and they decided to operate. The found he had a perforated bowel and bladder so they repaired both and stitched him up.
Over the next week he remained on a ventilator, but he improved and I went to visit. He could hear, but was very drowsy, when the vent was switched off, family members had to sit with him to remind him to breath. He eventually came off the ventilator.
Sometime later, my brother saw an advert for the Alpha course. He told my mum he wanted to go, so she took him. She smiled because the advert mentioned free food and he loved his food.
He completed the course and despite his learning difficultes he understood baptism and wanted to be done. He was paralysed and the church was not happy to do it, but he was adamant.
My sister bought a plastic swimming pool and put it in her garden and my dad baptised him in it.
He had a fantastic year following this and then died in his sleep, my dad was at peace with his passing as was I. But I then was intrigued by the Alpha course so decided to attend.
I am not perfect, but if I start something I do feel it’s important to see it through.
Each week after the course I would feel uneasy, my knowledge of scripture from my childhood kept surfacing there were errors in what was being taught.
However I did see it through.
They finish the course off with what the call a ‘holy spirit day’. If my memory serves me correctly.
I do remember, the scriptures quoted above came to mind, plus other, where two or three are gather together in my name, there am I also. Was one.
There may have been some who were not gathered in His name, but the couple who counselled me had been in ministry all their lives and they put their hands on my head and prayed, this time I was ready and I knew He was knocking.
The course ended in the October. People asked at the final meeting what they wanted to do next. I didn’t hesitate, I want to read the Bible all the way through. And I started a Bible in a year programme.
Scriptures started to make sense.
As the year progressed and Easter came round I wanted to attend a service to celebrate the resurrection. At one point in that service the minister looked directly at me and said ‘I have authority to read scriptures and you should listen to me’. I shuddered.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
If I took that ministers advice, I would be a hearer only, and I’d be deceiving myself.
It was clear that the spirit guiding that minister was not the ‘helper’ from the Lord Jesus Christ, so I never went back there.
I still live 300 miles from my parents. My dad by now knew that my life was changing and he advised I go to the church his friend went to about 6 miles from me. I walked to that one, but when I got there I literally couldn’t go in. I went home and read my Bible.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
I have recently discovered that they accept anyone in, regardless of sexual orientation etc.
I had taken up cycling, by now at the age of 50. I cycled the length of Britain with my brother, my parents providing support, it took 8 days.
My dad had moved on from Ken Copeland, but sadly, he was into the Andrew Wommack!
One day my dad said, ‘I’ve come to realise that Satan is something that humanity has invented’.
I was shocked but said nothing.
I considered what scripture says.
Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights and was tempted by Satan.
The question is, who would want humanity to believe Satan was something humanity had dreamt up?
The answer should be obvious – Satan.
I then looked at Andrew Wommacks website and searched it thoroughly and lo and behold there it was, a sermon teaching that Satan was made up by humanity.
I told my dad and he was outraged that I would question the teaching of an ordained minister.
He is now listening to Creflo Dollar – need I go on.
There are no active churches in my location – so I don’t have one right now.
I am prepared to go and listen, and I will ‘do’ what the noble Jews of Berea did.
I will listen patiently and respectfully, then I would go home and thoroughly cross reference everything that is taught and if the scriptures prove them true I would continue to attend.
In my area the famine of the Word has already begun.
That is why I mention the parable of the ten virgins.
Five used their time wisely, they prepared and when the bridegroom arrived, even though He had been delayed, their preparation ensured they were ready to go in.
I am sorry if I come across as a know it all.
But scripture is true and there is nothing I can do but believe it.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
I could go on.
My apologies to Ivar, if this response goes beyond what is considered suitable for your blog,
May God bless you and all your readers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ Amen.
Hi Alistair,
I am truly sorry that you had to go through such appalling struggles. Know that I will be praying for you as often as the Lord Jesus brings you to mind. As I’m sure you likely know, you have suffered a great deal of spiritual abuse. There are many websites that give practical suggestions for those who have been spiritually abused.
I do know that Britain, a land once on fire with the likes of many great preachers such as C.H. Spurgeon, has become devoid of the light of Scripture, in many areas. But, there is at least one place where they still hold to the love of God and the whole truth of His word. It is called The Faith Mission. They are headquartered in Edinburgh, Scotland. They are some of the finest Christian people I have ever encountered and are likely listed in your local directory. You can find them by a search engine. They concentrate their ministry in rural areas. They struggle to reach lost people who don’t even have access to a church anymore. I am praying blessings on you and yours in these last of the last days. Shalom.
Peace to you Job.
You wrote ‘I am truly sorry that you had to go through such appalling struggles.’
Don’t be.
I rejected Christ when I was 8.
He was merciful to me, He waited patiently till I was mature enough to receive instruction and repent. He was never far away and answered prayers.
I had never heard of C H Spurgeon nor the Faith Mission.
You say they struggle to reach lost people.
Through my experience a song that once had no meaning for me, made sense.
I once was lost, but now I’m found – was blind but now I see.
May God bless you and yours. Amen.
Dear Alistar.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
You wrote:
My apologies to Ivar, if this response goes beyond what is considered suitable for your blog,
My reply:
Absolutely not. This is an important testimony. You display to all of us that faith is not a fruit of mens work, or a conclusion that should come after reading the scriptures day and night. Faith is a fruit of an encounter with the Holy Spirit. I was 39 when I meet Jesus. It was a life transforming event. And I did not know many Bible verses. There was no leagalizem that pushed me towards Him.
Our job is to tell people the truth, and call them to repentance. Salvation is fully and wholy the responsibility and work of God. Only the Holy Spirit saves. We all need to have an encounter with Him.
Amen, Ivar. Praise God for His glorious work of salvation that “saved a wretch like me.”
Dear Alistair,
You wrote: “I had never heard of C H Spurgeon nor the Faith Mission.’
Please check them out. As the times grow darker, it is always good to read of and even meet other “found” people. C.H. Spurgeon was a famous English preacher from the late 19th century who was involved in the struggle against the false teaching of the liberals of his day. He is beloved and remembered widely by many, many Christians–the liberals who he opposed are only vaguely mentioned by some Church historians. My favorite quote from Spurgeon: “The need of the hour for today’s ministry is believing [Bible] scholarship joined with earnest spirituality, the one springing from the other as fruit from the root. The need is Biblical doctrine, so understood and felt that it sets men’s hearts on fire!” The Faith Mission is a very poor ministry in terms of worldly wealth but they are rich with the blessings of the Lord Jesus. Being around them is good for the soul, as they are a kind and gentle people. They are a faith ministry–they NEVER ask for money and do NOT go into debt, so they must abide by the faithful giving of friends of the Mission.
You said: “You say they struggle to reach lost people.”
My reply: Yes, England is a very difficult mission field now. Ironically, some of Faith Mission’s greatest effectiveness has been in showing Christ to immigrants from India and even from Muslim countries.
You said: “Through my experience a song that once had no meaning for me, made sense. I once was lost, but now I’m found – was blind but now I see.”
That’s truly the way it is for all of us. I can affirm that “I once was lost, but now I’m found–was blind, but now I see” as well as “Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.” 🙂
You said: “May God bless you and yours. Amen.”
And I pray the same for you. Amen.