The pre-trib delusions

Replacement theology teach that the antichrist first will be revealed after the Church is raptured. This is a doctrine taught by an anti-Messiah, a replacement.

rapture1
This is what false Friends of Israel claims will happen to them, before the antichrist is revealed.

People who preach that it is impossible to identify the anti-Christ, do serve the interests of anti-Christ. Just like all who say there is no Satan today, do serve Satan.

The anti-Christ was identified by all the Church reformers during the Reformation. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin agreed that the Pope of Rome was an antichrist. The Apostolic Baptists had claimed this for more than 1100 years. Since the days Rome banished Judaism, and made it an criminal act to be a proselyte and grafted into the Jewish faith.

Be aware that true Evangelical Friends of Israel have always been called a “grafted” “olive three”. A witness among the Jewish people in Jerusalem.

 Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.

The Jesuits motives for launching the pre-trib doctrine into the Church, was to blur the true understanding of what an anti-Christ is. It is not a person who is deadly against Christianity, a secular worldly ruler. An anti-Christ is very much a claimed follower of the Messiah, But he is following a copycat, who has succeeded in replacing the true Messiah.

Jeremiah 31:3
The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: ‘I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

One of the consequence of the pre-trib doctrine, is a claim that it is God’s intention to separate the “Church” and “Israel”. The love for Israel is not supposed to be everlasting, as the Word of God proclaim. We are told that the Church and Israel is not supposed to stand in unity, and that their destiny is totally different. The new covenant is not for the House of Jacob. Not for the tribe of Judah.

 Jeremiah 31:31
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The second consequence of the pre-trib doctrine, is a rejection of the purpose of the gathering of Jews home to Israel. 1948 is not related to the salvation of the Jewish people, but rather about a massive rejection in the near future.  God do desire to gathered them “home” to punish them in one place.

The rebirth of Israel seems not to be a sign of the mercy and grace of the Messiah. The Jews are gathered home to Israel to be left behind, to face the antichrist that the Church is unable to identify.  Strangely enough. Since the gospel writers were able to acknowledge that a lot of antichrists already had gone into the world. and proclaimed a different gospel.

 1.John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

This kind of Replacement Ideology also reject what took place with Ruth, and all the proselytes gathered on the day of Pentecost. Not only Jews from all over the World were gathered to face salvation.  Like Ruth, the proselytes had promised to make the Jewish People their people, and God of Israel their God.  This is exactly what true Evangelical Friends of Israel have done.

 Ruth 1:16
And Ruth said, Urge me not to leave you or to turn back from following you; for where you go I will go, and where you lodge I will lodge. Your people shall be my people and your God my God.

 Acts 2:10
Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and the transient residents from Rome, both Jews and the proselytes [to Judaism from other religions].

All who stand united with Israel proclaim the faithfulness of God of Israel. When the full number of gentile proselytes have come into the Kingdom, the whole of Israel shall be saved.  Today we see that apostasy and lukewarmness spreads like wildfires among the gentiles. But the heart and mind of the Jewish people is turning towards their Messiah. Just like the prophets have foretold.

There will eventually be a rapture. Of the true Church who has refused to take the mark of the beats, and refused to bow down to the antichrists. The true Church have always been persecuted. The anti-Christian pogroms did not only attack and massacred the Jews. In their millions, through the ages, the true witnesses for Jesus the Messiah have been martyred and promoted to the Kingdom of Heaven. No pre-trib rapture was needed for all who were enabled to testify about the Messiah, to the point of martyrdom. They all were able to identify the anti-Christs, and reject them.

Love Jesus the Messiah enough to reject the false Replacement theology, and to stay united with Israel and the Jewish people.

Written by Ivar

Advertisements

173 thoughts on “The pre-trib delusions

  1. Ivar,

    Shalom va emet. I think there may be some information being lost in translation. To believe in a resurrection does not automatically equate to Replacement Theology. Many who are friends of Israel and are born again or born from above believe in a resurrection.

    The Koine Greek word used by the Holy Spirit is harpazo (pronounced “ar-parxo”) and means to snatch away quickly without notice – similar to grabbing a child prior to him/her stepping out into traffic.

    Aside from the scriptural support of multiple “harpazo”s, Ephraim the Syrian also wrote about a catching away of the saints prior to Constantine’s hijacking of the “ekklesia” (church).

    Israel has not been replaced. Israel is the bride/wife of G-d, and we born again believers of Y’shua are the bride/wife of Messiah. Gentile believers who are truly born again, love their Jewish brothers and sisters in Messiah (Christos).

    Regardless of “when”, Messiah is returning. May it be today. Maranatha!

    p.s. – your article/post should bring many views/posts 😉

    1. Dear Mordechai

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Thanks for blessing me.

      I believe in the resurrection of Jesus the Messiah. So do the Pope of Rome claim he is doing. My point is that non ability to discern and bell an anti-Christ, is not based on New Testament Messianic faith. To not be willing to, or, not be able to discern an anti-Messiah, is to ignore the warning from Jesus.

      The true Church is supposed to have gifts of the Holy Spirit in place. Enabled to have this protection up and running. So the Church is not lead into deception and apostasy by a copy-cat.

      Yes, I do hope this article will trigger a lot of comments.

      1. Hi Ivar
        I believe that pre trib rapture is a dispensationalist view.
        Dispensationalist also hold strongly to the idea that their are two people of God. Israel and the church. I think pre trib dispensationalism does not come under the category of
        Replacement theology. I could be wrong on my understanding
        of it though
        Grace and Peace to you

      2. Dear Todd.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        I believe that pre trib rapture is a dispensationalist view.

        My comment:

        Your are right on this. I held on to dispensationalism up till I was confronted with the Prophetic Word. I either had to believe what my present day Bible teachers told me was correct, or to submit to the Bible.

        Who define what is “Replacement theology”?

        The traditional view, is that this is the theology of Rome. I say yes, it is. And it is the same Jesuits who are behind the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Because in this school of faith, you are not supposed to say that the Pope is an antichrist. You cant do this, because he shall only be revealed, after the Church is taken away.

        True: The Church who submit to Rome is already “taken away”. It is no longer a Church of trustworthy witnesses.

        Second: This school of faith, teach that an antichrist is a secular worldly ruler. A man that persecute Christians (read: also Catholics). This is a way to acknowledge the Pope as a Christian leader. That has always been wrong. Nothing is new. This is the good old apostasy from before the Reformation.

    2. Evryone here needs to think out of the box and what I mean dont be so uptight and dont think like the world thought you to think . Everything has to line up with scripture 100% . The word Rapture has never been a good use for this part of scripture, why don’t you start Using the word Taken away wich is similar or it means the same thing as rapture and there it is your arguments are gone. Think out of the worldly box and focus on scripture everything that is on the bible is fully 100% true and correct. What’s the big deal of the word rapture, I don’t understand how such a word confuses people , what’s wrong with you , use Taken away instead an people would have a better understanding of Thessalonians verse.

      1. Dear Ee.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        “Taken away”. What would be the purpose of taking away the true witnesses, who have been able to identify the antichrist?

        You simply do not “take away” the true saints. Second: If people needs to hear the gospel to bring forth salvation, it would be a strange move to:

        1. Remove the saints.
        2. Let the “saints” party in Heaven, while the others are desperately searching for the truth. Including God’s chosen people, the people of Israel.
        3. Claim that people can be saved, after the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn.

        It simply does not make sense. And the scripture tells us otherwise.

        In the book of Revelation chapter 11, there are still witnesses left behind to battle the antichrists. They are not mentioned by name, but are also called two lamp stands and two olive threes. These two witnesses is eventually, and absolutely not deniable, taken away. Raptured. In the middle of the Great Tribulation. In front of their very persecutors and enemies of God.

        The whole idea of a pre-trib rapture is an invention of men. They take a Bible verse here and there, twist them, and fall inline with the teaching of the Jesuits. The fruits are:

        1. Do not try to identify the last and final antichrist.
        2. Do not try to prepare your self to resist to take the mark of the beast.
        3. Do not say that the Jewish people are God’s chosen people today. Their election has been suspended.

  2. Talking about Ruth, she was at the feet of Boaz, the kinsman redeemer when there was the Tribulation (ch.3 v.2) like the Church will be in Heaven with Jesus when the Wrath of God/Jacob’s Trouble – to which the Church is not appointed- will be poured on the Earth.

    1. No, she was on the threshing floor when the barley and wheat harvest were finished. The threshing floor IS the Tribulation.
      Jesus said the kingdom would be taken away from Israel and given to another who would bear its fruit. Ruth bored fruit for Naomi, because she was barren.

    2. When Ruth was at the feet of Boaz, they were on the THRESHING FLOOR when the harvest was finished. The threshing floor is a picture of the tribulation when the wheat is sifted to remove chaff. How is CHAFF removed from us? Through the testing of our faith, through trials and tribulations. Gold is not purified without fire.
      Notice in the passage that Boaz awakens to find Ruth at His feet, and then He tells her he will REDEEM her the next morning. IF this is a picture of the rapture, which is the REDEMPTION of our bodies, why is Ruth told to “lodge her tonight” until Boaz makes sure the nearer kinsman does not want, or is unable to, redeem her. If the rapture had already happened, she would have already been redeemed.
      PreTribbers like to wrest passages out of context in order to prove their theory. They also foolishly believe God is going to rapture an unpurified bride that has not made herself ready, just because we are “saved by grace.”
      The harvest is “the end of the age,” when the tares are first removed and burned with fire, and the wheat is gathered into the barn. This is clearly post-tribulational.

  3. dear Ivar;
    Beliving in pri-trib is not replacment theology, Rejecting Israel is. Pre trib is perfectly scriptural.

    I personaly lean to pri-trib. One of the reasons is that Word said that all Christians will suffer tribulations (Psyhical or mental). But Jacobs trouble is Jacobs trouble, for them to call the name of the LORD. HOŠ 5:15 – ZECH 12:10 – thean use JER 31:31 anda ZECH 13

    Hos 5:15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

    Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
    (Great Trouble, Jer 30:7), we all have some kind of trouble, but this has focus on Israel for them to call on the name of the LORD, then He will reveal Himself to them.

    Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    We all should love Israel, like Ruth loved Naomi and Boaz (Jesus) and pray 4 them to accept theirs and ours King and Lord.

    May Lord bless you and keep up the good work!

    1. Dear mido 777.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      I personaly lean to pri-trib. One of the reasons is that Word said that all Christians will suffer tribulations (Psyhical or mental). But Jacobs trouble is Jacobs trouble.

      My reply:

      I do not mind anyone preaching pre-trib. But I do not. I will rather warn about the consequences of this doctrine. One of them is the unwillingness to bell the Pope of Rome as an antichrist.

      Jacobs trouble is very much today!..Do not push this trouble into a fictive World, after there have been a not Biblical exit of a “Church”, who teach that she will escape the trouble. All true witnesses of Jesus face the same trouble, today, persecuted and even martyred. The assembly of “witnesses” that have been turned into passive religious gatherings, do not suffer any other trouble than what comes from friendship with the World.

      1. Shalom to you Ivar.

        Please note that letter of John is telling us there is a lots of antichrists in the world. But the Anaticrist is not jet came. Remember in OT we have lots of references for him (Assyrian, Little Horn, Idle Shepherd, Leviathan, King of Tyre etc…), in NT also (antichrist, son of perdition etc….)

        My point; whats the point calling him antichrist??? he is called by many names in scriptures?

        At last; in REV 13 we see there are two persons. First and second Beast.

        Popo of rome is by my opinion candidate 4 false prophet, in rev 13 its the person who does sings and wonders. Both beasts are impovered by Satan himself, maybe first is incarnate by Satan, copying YHWH.

        In reformation times God started to uncover women (fake church) that rides the beast (world system) . But that was if for the time. Books was in that time sealed by God for further discoveries.

        Pope is certanly of antichrist or false prophet. I think that any beliver in Living word knows that. But categoricly claim 4 sure i think is wrong 4 now.

        Bless you

      2. Dear Mido777

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        Pope is certanly of antichrist or false prophet. I think that any beliver in Living word knows that.

        My comment:

        You might be aware of the ecumenical movement, that accept the Pope as as Christian leader. There is about 1,5 billion people in the “Churches” that support this view. 400 million of them claims to be “Protestants”, and members of the World Council of Churches (WCC).

    2. Dispensationalism is a false doctrine. The Church is “the remnant chosen by grace,” out of the nation of Israel, along with ingrafted Gentiles. The Church was born of Pentecost, an Israelite holy day. The Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets…all of them Israelites. Jesus is the Seed of Abraham, the inheritor of the promises. In Christ, Gentiles become part of the Commonwealth of Israel, and sharers in the Promise of Christ. Jew and Gentile are made “one new man” in Him.
      “All Israel” will be saved at Jesus coming by being grafted back into the exact same Tree that Gentiles are grafted into, namely, the Church, the Body of Christ.
      Jesus made a New Covenant with Israel at His first Coming, with the Israelite disciples, seven weeks before the Church was born.
      “And this is the covenant I will make with them when I take away their sins.” God has not set aside Israel during the Church Age. Even now there is a remnant saved by grace, and that remnant will continue to be saved until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.
      PreTribbers think that God is incapable of dealing with Israel while the Church is still on earth. So how does He deal with the Church while Israel still on the earth? PreTrib “logic.”

      Not Covenant Theology, not Dispensationalism, not Replacement Theology, but REMNANT Theology.

  4. Ivar,

    The true Church (the Bride of Christ) will be caught up to meet Him in the air—before the days when G-d’s wrath is poured out on the earth. She is not appointed to His wrath (although the wrath of Satan has always hounded her–the last 2,000 years has yielded 70,000,000 million Christian martyrs). That is what Scripture says. She is a faithful Bride, pure and chaste. However, in these days of great apostasy, the true Bride pines for her Bridegroom. She will be removed to the heavenly Jerusalem (the new Jerusalem that is seen coming down out of heaven in Revelation 21).

    True Israel, is the faithful Wife of G-d. She eagerly waits and anticipates the day when G-d’s Kingdom will be established here on earth. It will be a mortal kingdom (albeit, filled with mortals who will live long, healthy lives). You can know it is a mortal kingdom because Ezekiel speaks of the Prince (that is, the mortal who will rule the Millennial Kingdom) as having sons. Since we know, by the very words of Jesus, that there will be no marriage in the Resurrection, there will, by necessity, be no children born to the resurrected beings (that is, the Bride of Christ) who fill the heavenly Jerusalem, as the stars fill the sky. That means that the Millennial Kingdom will be populated by mortal beings who are brought through the Tribulation. G-d is always true to His promises and He promised that the Kingdom would be ultimately restored to Israel. They will be as the grains of sand on the shore. The Prophets all spoke of the day when the Messiah/King would rule from David’s Throne here on the earth. When Jesus has His Second Coming to establish the Kingdom for Israel, His feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives (note that it does not say that He will meet anyone in the air). Again, that is what the Scripture says. Israel will mourn as for an only son when seeing the Pierced One. It is VERY important that we not confuse the true Bride with true Israel.

    Replacement theology attempts to say that the promises given to Israel have been inherited by the “Church” and it is a lie out of the pit of hell. Replacement theology is an anti-Christ invention intended to discourage nominal “Christians” from doing anything to help Israel. The true Bride LOVES the Jewish people and desperately wants to see them receive their Kingdom of Heaven on the earth. The true Bride understands that G-d ALWAYS keeps His promises and He has promised to return their Kingdom.

    1. Dear job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote (1):

      The true Church (the Bride of Christ) will be caught up to meet Him in the air—before the days when G-d’s wrath is poured out on the earth. She is not appointed to His wrath (although the wrath of Satan has always hounded her–the last 2,000 years has yielded 70,000,000 million Christian martyrs).

      You wrote (2):

      Replacement theology attempts to say that the promises given to Israel have been inherited by the “Church” and it is a lie out of the pit of hell

      My reply

      (1). It is a contraction to believe in a Church that is not destined for “God’s wrath” (on Earth), and in the next line acknowledge that 70 million Christians have faced violent death. Many of them tortured, starved to death in prisons, mutated or crippled. A couple of billion Christians have also died a natural death through the ages, not being raptured away from those men who have killed the martyrs, and believed they did so in the service of “god”.

      That we are not destined for the wrath of God, has to be put into the correct eternal perspective. The children of the devil will sure try their best to make life on Earth a living Hell for the true witnesses of Jesus. But the gates of Hell will surely not prevail against the true Church.

      Every tortured and molested martyr, who gave the ultimate sacrifice in the service for Jesus the Messiah, will be resurrected, and live with Him inside the Eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

      (2.) If the Church is raptured, and Israel left behind to face God’s wrath, truly this is Replacement theology. The pre-trib doctrine delete God’s promised eternal love for God’s chosen people.

      It is astonishing that so many claimed to be “Friends of Israel”, are not able to see the contradictions in their message.

    2. So, are you aware that marriage is a type and a picture of the relationship between Christ and His Bride, the New Jerusalem? Just as a husband places his seed inside his wife and she bears fruit, so Christ places His seed, the Holy Spirit, inside the Church and she bears fruit.
      What seed is God the Father placing inside His Bride, Israel?

      Remnant theology teaches that the Church is a remnant of Israel chosen by grace with ingrafted Gentiles, also chosen by grace.
      In other words, there is ONE people of God, not two.

  5. I cant really say i understand what the fuss over Isreal is all about, I however know allegiance to Isreal is not prerequisite for my salvation in Christ. Pre-trib or not, replacement theology or not, I simply stay glue in my faith in Christ and study the bible to live a life conformable to His.

    Personally, I think emphasizes should be placed on things that matter to Christ and relevant to the great commission, living a godly Christian life instead of unprofitable hullaballoo, majoring on the minor issues.

    I dont have any more business with Isreal than interceding for her like I do for other nations on earth.

    1. Dear Shedrach

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      I understand your frustration. But the Word of God is crystal clear about the eternal love God has for His chosen people. It is not political correct to remind the World about this. The global Church is being lead into apostasy, when she joins the enemies of Israel. It is an error that follows submission to false teachers.

      A pastor wanted us to “pray for Israel”. Fair and good. Even the Pope does that. I rebuked the pastor, and said: “That is not enough. We need to support Israel”. Jesus the Messiah is not “the God” for those who are satisfied with lazyness and lukewarm intersessions. We need to follow up our prayers for Israel (and others) with action. Like rebuking all who would like us to boycott the Jewish nation, and surely keep on buying Israeli products. Double your purchase, if you can.

      1. Dear Ivarfjeld,
        Isreal’s fate lies in her hand. I am a Christian, none of the tenets of my faith requires me to support her politically, Isreal is not a meccah for Christians. Will I keep praying for Isreal?, yeah, that her inhabitants might come into the saving knowledge of Christ. Making Zionism a Christian doctrine or tenet of Christian faith puts one in the league of Roman Catholicism

        Matthew 12:48-50
        48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother

      2. Dear Shedrach

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Your reply:

        Isreal’s fate lies in her hand. I am a Christian, none of the tenets of my faith requires me to support her politically, Isreal is not a meccah for Christians.

        My comment:

        All Christians needs to do the will of the Father to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. I can assure you, you will be disconnected from the eternal presence of God of Israel, if you remain lukewarm to what He has done in your generation. From 1948, He has made a public disgrace of all His enemies. Let me remind you about Matthew 7: 21-23. It will not be enough to say “Lord, Lord”.

        Yes, many will enter Heaven without even being able to place Israel on the map. But you seem to be aware that you have the ability and chance to bless her.

  6. Ivar,

    It is not a contradiction to say that the true Church (the Bride) is not appointed to G-d’s wrath and, at the same time, say that the Church has always been subject to Satan’s wrath (as have been the Jewish people). After the Church is removed, those who are left on the earth will face an either/or situation. Either finally and truly accept Jesus as their Lord, and face martyrdom at the hand of Satan (but there will be a glorious future as one of many who will be given special honor), or accept the Mark of the Beast and face eternal death under the wrath of G-d. True Israel will be taken to a place of safety in the wilderness (see Revelation 12) during the Tribulation, to wait the Lord’s coming and His deliverance. They will will be counting the days (and they will know the precise number of days) till their deliverance, when the Lord appears to establish the Millennial Kingdom (in fulfillment of the Zechariah 12:10 prophecy among many, many prophecies in the Tanach). It is NOT Replacement Theology to say that the inhabitants who are “left behind” on the earth will face either Satan’s most extreme wrath or G-d’s. Those who face the either/or choice will include many professing “Christians” as well as the people of Israel. I pray earnestly that those left behind and who name the name of Messiah Jesus, whether Gentile or Jew, will make the right choice.

    1. Dear Job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      After the Church is removed, those who are left on the earth will face an either/or situation. Either finally and truly accept Jesus as their Lord, and face martyrdom at the hand of Satan.

      My reply:

      What you write, can easily be proven wrong by using basic Scripture truth.

      John The Baptist faced this kind of martyrdom, when Jesus the Messiah walked in flesh in Jerusalem. Jesus permitted the great baptizer to be beheaded. His own cousin, who baptized the Messiah, fully God in flesh. Jesus could have stopped it!. No rapture.

      Neither did Stephen live in an post-Church society.

      It is a gross error to even think that a Church that is unable, nor willing to teach correctly about the anti-Christ, shall get a premium of being “taken away” from the mother of all trouble. The Great Tribulation that will come on all who live on the face of the Earth.

      It is amazing, that anyone can teach, that the witnesses who understand who the anti-Christ is, and are ready to pay the ultimate price, shall be left behind. In particular that they will only understand so, after the true Church have been raptured.

      Again: I see the scripture telling me that the rapture will come inside the Great Tribulation. Jesus the Messiah will shorten those days, for the sake of the elect. If not: Non of us could even dream of surviving.

      1. Dear Ivar,

        Like Ruth was spared from the Trib, also Enoch a picture of the Church was raptured before the flood. Noah, like the Israel remnant was protected thru the Trib.

        And remember what the Lord says to the true Church of Philadelphia Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

      2. Dear Stephan

        Shalom,and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

        My reply:

        I agree on every word in this line. But this passage do not mention a pre-trib rapture. There are many trials. And to be “kept” is not the same as being taken away.

  7. Dear Ivar,

    I have always maintained that the true Church has faced persecution and martyrdom at the hands of Satan, down through the Church Age. When did I deny that? Permitting persecution has always played a role in G-d’s procuring a people for Himself from among the Gentiles. It has always served a role in testifying to the Truth. G-d spared not His own Son from martyrdom at the hand of Satan, why would we believe that He would do that for those of us in the Church? Jesus indeed told us that we would face many trials and persecutions–that if the children of Satan persecuted Him, that they would persecute us as well. The martyrs have always confirmed the Truth, after the example of their Lord, with their own blood. His Blood did even more than that, of course. It provided this His amazing grace to those who did not deserve it. However, this time of grace (and persecution) is drawing to a close. When the full number of the Gentiles has come in, G-d will turn toward His people Israel. He will fulfill His promises to them.

    The Scripture is clear that we in the Church, are not to face the wrath of G-d that will come upon the inhabitants of the earth at the End of Days. If He removes true Israel to a place of safety (see Revelation 12), why would He not preserve His Son’s Bride at the same time? This is the “blessed hope” that is first mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17. The Church has always clung to this truth throughout the Church Age.

    About the whole issue of the Rapture, we need to have the attitude of Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego)–that we know that G-d is capable of delivering us from Satan’s wrath, that we believe He will, but even if He does not, we will NEVER bow the knee to Satan and his antichrist–nor will we take the Mark.

    Just saying that He did not spare John the Baptist is no more proof than what I have just offered. Shalom.

    1. Dear job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus

      You wrote:

      I have always maintained that the true Church has faced persecution and martyrdom at the hands of Satan, down through the Church Age. When did I deny that?

      My reply:

      I have never written that you have said otherwise. My point is based on what the scripture says. My opinions are not valid.

      Lets take a rough view on the history of persecution and martyrdom:

      1. Israel predates the Church. Israel (as 12 families and a nation) has always been persecuted by Satan.
      2. Occupied Israel (as a nation) persecuted the Church from 33 A.D up to its own destruction in 70 A.D.
      3. Both the Jewish people in the diaspora and the witnesses of Jesus where persecuted and martyred by the Roman Empire from 70. AD to 325 A.D
      3. The Church (Rome and its apostate allies) started to persecute the Jewish people from 325 A.D onwards. The persecution did not end before 1948, when the Jews got their homeland back.
      4. Today, both the Jewish settlers and true witnesses of Jesus are persecuted. Not protected Jews are instantly killed by the forces of Jihad. True Witnesses for Jesus are martyred in their tens of thousands in the part of the Globe that are controlled by the totalitarian forces of Islam.

      Who is not persecuted, who is not facing martyrdom?

      The glossy, apostate Church of North America and Europe…Those who teach that they shall be taken away from all the troubles, and that those who always have faced the ultimate sacrifice standing in front of antichrists, shall be left behind.

  8. Dear Ivar,
    As an afterthought, I thought I should respond to this:

    “Again: I see the scripture telling me that the rapture will come inside the Great Tribulation. Jesus the Messiah will shorten those days, for the sake of the elect. If not: Non of us could even dream of surviving.”

    The term, “the Elect” has always referred to believing Israel. There are, however, TWO people groups that are elected. Israel represents the PHYSICAL elect of G-d and the Bride (the true Church) represents the SPIRITUAL (election by grace) people of G-d. It is wise to avoid confusing the two.

    1. One other important note is that in the Eternal State following the Millennial Kingdom, there will only be one group of G-d’s people. There will be no Temple because the Lord G-d Almighty Himself and the Lamb will be center for worship. (See Revelation 21:22)

  9. “The love for Israel is not supposed to be everlasting, as the Word of God proclaim. We are told that the Church and Israel is not supposed to stand in unity, and that their destiny is totally different. The new covenant is not for the House of Jacob. Not for the tribe of Judah.”

    Since I normally appreciate much of what you share, I was completely taken aback and shocked at what I read in this article. What you wrote above and what I comment on below contain statements that are not at all what the pre-tribulational rapture view teaches. The Kingdom is the Lord’s and consists of Israel and the Land promised to them, as well as His rule over the entire earth. The Church will be a part of the Kingdom as the Bride of Christ. Although there are some who believe that the Church is now benefiting, or somehow included in the New Covenant, or that there are two new covenants, there are those of us who believe that the Church has no connection to the New Covenant, as it is a totally new creation of God, and the future fulfillment of the New Covenant is with the house of Judah and the house of Israel just as it is given in Jeremiah 31.

    “The second consequence of the pre-trib doctrine, is a rejection of the purpose of the gathering of Jews home to Israel. 1948 is not related to the salvation of the Jewish people, but rather about a massive rejection in the near future. God do desire to gathered them “home” to punish them in one place.

    The rebirth of Israel seems not to be a sign of the mercy and grace of the Messiah. The Jews are gathered home to Israel to be left behind, to face the antichrist that the Church is unable to identify.”

    This also is a fallacious argument. Scripture clearly teaches that the regathering of Israel will first be in unbelief (Ezek. 37:7-8), that God will judge His people to purify the land and people of rebellious unbelievers (Joel 1,2), followed by the inauguration of Millennial portion of Christ’s eternal Kingdom with the fulfillment of the New Covenant (Joel 2:28-32) and the judgment of the nations (Joel 3).

    The Pre-tribulational rapture view of things to come has absolutely no connection with Replacement Theology – perhaps some of the charismatic “kingdom now” sects believe something like that, but I don’t believe they are pre-trib either. I believe it would do you well to study the writings of those who are truly replacement theologians. I would also direct your attention to http://www.pre-trib.org.

    1. Dear Steve Spurlin, PhD

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      What you wrote above and what I comment on below contain statements that are not at all what the pre-tribulational rapture view teaches.

      My comment:

      Since I am not sure if you have misunderstood, let me repeat.
      1. The pre-trib doctrine teach that the Church will be taken away to a wedding banquette in Heaven.
      2. After the exit of the Church, the last and final antichrist will be revealed.
      3. Israel will be left behind.

      1. Dear Ivar, you have said: “I have claimed from scripture, that it is not the ‘Church’ that holds back the antichrist.”

        I would totally agree with that statement–it is not the “Church” but the Holy Spirit who has restrained evil during the Church Age. Since Antichrist will be the most evil of men (because he is Satan incarnate), it follows that it is the Holy Spirit who is the Restrainer who must be “taken out of the way” to permit the Antichrist to have his short reign. AND, since Jesus Himself promised His faithful that the Holy Spirit would ALWAYS be with us (John 14:15-17), it follows that the Bride would be taken away along with the Restrainer.

      2. Job 3627

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        I would totally agree with that statement–it is not the “Church” but the Holy Spirit who has restrained evil during the Church Age.

        My comment:

        It is funny how many Christians have accepted a Jesuit doctrine, that claim that the antichrist is a supreme power, that can push the Holy Spirit away from the Earth.

        1. The Holy Spirit will be present on Earth during the Great Tribulation. No one can push Him away.
        2. People will be saved during the Great Tribulation, because the Holy Spirit is present.
        3. All Christians have for 2.000 years taught correctly about the Holy Spirit as the lone power that can save a human being.
        4. If we believe that God’s wrath is being revealed on mankind during the Great Tribulation, is not the Holy Spirit a part of God anymore? When did “god” change?

        In conclusion:

        The Pope can only enter Jerusalem, as a guest of Zionist Israel. His powers in Jerusalem is restricted and limited, held back by the Government of Israel. When Zionism is removed, not by God but by the free will of wicked men, the “Holy See” can set up his abominations on the Temple Mount it self. At any time.

        Now, who is holding back the present wickedness, the powers of evil?

        It is the free will of men, to give the antichrist powers, and to lift him up.

        The Holy Spirit has given us us all a clear cut message. He was warned us in advance, about people believing in lies, and replacing the truth. So “be my guest!.”

      3. Ivarfjeld,

        I don’t believe that I misunderstood what you said. I also will state my agreement with points 1 & 2 of you reply. Scripture does teach the “harpazo” of the Church, which is identified as the rapture based upon the Latin Vulgate’s usage of the word that is transliterated as such. I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, and Revelation, as well as other passages teach the appearance of a final and ultimate pseudo-Christ following the removal of the Church.
        I only partially agree with point 3. Yes, all who are identified as “Israel” who have not trusted Messiah will be left to face the 70th week of Daniel; the final week owed by God to Israel for their rebellion and failure to keep the Sabbath years.
        However, “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25-29), but only after the rebellious have been purged from the Land by God’s judgment within the Great Tribulation period.
        Much of what you wrote is appropriate when critiquing Replacement Theology. But Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial, Dispensational theology does not teach what Replacement Theology does teach.

      4. Dear Steve Spurlin, PhD

        Shalom,and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial, Dispensational theology

        My reply:

        Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial, Dispensational theology…..

        This is the view that the Church will be raptured, Israel left behind, because God’s promises to her has been suspended. But the Church is supposed to return from Heaven to the Earth, from the wedding party, and up from the ashes of a persecuted Jewish people, the millennium kingdom will be established in Israel.

        The particular side of this kind of theology, is that those who refused to accept the Lordship of Jesus, will get a new chance to repent, also after their punishment inside the Great Tribulation: Despite taking the mark of the beast, they will experience a new grace period in the Millennium kingdom. This is truly a New Age doctrine, a way to strip the cross at Calvary Hill from all its powers.

      5. ivarfeld
        I really don’t believe that you have studied what Pre-Trib, etc., writers teach. No one that I have ever read teaches that those who take the mark will have a second chance. Those who take the mark are eternally damned. Israel will be tormented by the pseudo-Christ as part of God’s discipline. By the end of the tribulation those of Israel who remain will be saved precisely because they call upon Jesus as their Messiah. Not only is this not a New Age teaching, it is biblical, it is what Paul, and John taught (Revelation), and it is what the early church believed for the most part.

      6. Steve Spurlin, PhD

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        We need to look into the details of every theology, and see if it is inline with, or contradict the Word of God. Keep feelings and personal favoritism aside. Again.

        The pre-trib doctrine teaches:

        1. First the rapture of the Church.
        2. Israel is left behind inside the Great Tribulation.
        3. Those who take the mark of the beast, will not be found in the Kingdom of Heaven.
        4. The Millennium Kingdom starts. This is claimed to be yet, another kingdom of grace.

        My question is:

        Who are those who will find mercy and grace inside this new Age Kingdom?

        If the Church is not raptured before the Great Tribulation, all these elements fall into its right place.

        1. All who resit the antichrist and refuse to take the mark of the Beast, will come out of the Great Tribulation. They will be TAKEN AWAY by the Lord. They will be raptured, in front of the eyes of their very enemies. The enemies of the true witnesses are today everywhere. So this gross show of both betrayal and God’s ultimate powers can soon begin.
        2. As Jesus returns, those who had been beheaded because of their service as witness for Jesus Messiah came back to life, and REIGNED with the Messiah for a thousand years.
        3. The martyred witnesses came back to life, and reigned with all who had resisted the beast.
        3. Now, the separation of the sheep and the goats will take place. Those who served the beast (the anti-Christ) will be thrown into the eternal lake of fire.
        4. The Millennium Kingdom is a Kingdom of judgment, and the rule of the Messiah with an iron rod.

      7. Who find mercy and grace in the present age?
        Are you calling the kingdom of Christ new age?

        To your first point: you have completely misinterpreted what will occur with those who refuse the mark. They aren’t taken away, raptured. They are beheaded or are running from the beast, et. al.

        Your point two: you as much as admit that I am correct about point one.

        Your point three merely restates point two.

        Your second point three is correct. Matthew 25:31-46 describes the exclusion of the goats from the Kingdom that Christ Himself establishes.

        Point four: I agree.

        As to your description of pre-Trib doctrine: 1. Yes. 2. Yes, and clearly taught in Scripture. 3. Is there really an argument there? 4. I have no idea where you get that we teach that the Millennial portion of the eternal Kingdom is “another kingdom of grace.” God’s grace has been extended to mankind throughout all of history. Christ’s kingdom has yet to be established on the earth, and will be a kingdom of righteousness with Jesus ruling with an iron rod, yet also will be a kingdom in which His grace is continually demonstrated if for no other reason that you and I will be in it.

  10. Dear Ivar,

    You do a grave disservice to the true Church to suggest that She has persecuted the Jewish people. There have always been those who pretend to serve the Lord and at the same time persecute His Brethren, but they are shown to be liars by their actions. Just as the Roman “Church” has grown drunk upon the blood of the martyrs for Christ, so too have they grown drunk upon the blood of the Jewish people. To call those thieves and murderers “Christians” or the “Church” is really sad. The gate has always, always been narrow and a relative few of those who claimed to be Christians actually were true believers. Actions have always been the proof of who we actually followed–Christ or Satan. The tragedy of the Church Age is that so many who have “named the Name” and become famous in Church history have denied their Lord by their subsequent words and actions.

  11. Ivar, you are right on one point. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 clearly says this, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” This verse is what some pretriber’s use for the rapture. But it says there will come an Falling away first (Apostasy) from ‘the faith’. Then anti-Christ will come. Secondly there are 3 types of people. Jews, Gentiles, and the church which is comprised of both Jews and Gentile believers in Messiah Jesus. Now I heard a teaching the other day, he said, the rapture is in Revelation 7:14. Othesr believe it is in Rev. 4:1, etc. When ever it is, there is still a rapture of the “true” church (Jews & Gentiles). It is a typology of Enoch, Noah, & Lot. Matthew 24 clearly says it will be just like the days of Noah (Mt. 24:36-40). They (Enoch, Noah, Lot) all got rescued before judgment fell. God will pour out His wrath, but He will take His bride first. Praise the Lord!

    1. Dear Nanette

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      When ever it is, there is still a rapture of the “true” church (Jews & Gentiles).

      My reply:

      I feel this is an honest debate, where all my faithful readers have been focusing on the topic.

      I have never disputed that there will be a rapture. I have claimed from scripture, that it is not the “Church” that holds back the antichrist. And I dispute a doctrine that claims that the antichrist can only be revealed after the exit of the Church.

      We are not disabled from Heaven to identify the last and final antichrist, and incapable of being tricked to take the mark of the beast.

      1. Ivar,
        I may be misunderstanding you, but if you are saying we can be tricked into taking the mark of the beast, you are wrong.
        Jesus said:
        “All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me “”I should lose nothing””, but should raise it up again at the last day.” John 6:37-39

        Nothing can separate us from Christ!
        Eternal life means ETERNAL. If we can be tricked out of it, it would never have been ‘eternal’, now would it?

      2. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Once saved, always saved. That were one of the core doctrines of John Calvin. I am not a Calvinist.

        We have to ask what kind of builders we are. Jesus spoke about foolish builders. They were not foolish because they had not heard the gospel nor because they had not received the gospel with joy. They were foolish because they did not continue to build on the Rock.

        I can become one of these fools. And so can you.

        To loose our salvation, we have to walk away. Jesus will never walk away from us. No one who desire to stay put can be snatched from this hands. But if we walk away, and do no longer follow the Word of God, it is possible for any of us to walk directly into the wide gates of Hell.

      3. I would agree with Phil Mayo. I do not believe that we could be tricked into taking the Mark of the Beast. It seems pretty clear that those who do, will know well what they are doing. Satanists view G-d as their enemy and curse Him. Taking the Mark of the Beast will be the final step in their complete subjugation to Satan. Judas is the likely type of those people. John 13:27 says, speaking of Judas, that “…Satan went into him…” Pretty scary, but Jesus says (speaking of His disciples) in John 17:12, “During my time here, I have kept them safe. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold.”

      4. Dear job3627

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Judas is always an interesting topic, when we debate a man who lost his way.

        1. He was chosen to be with Jesus.
        2. He accepted His call.
        3. He spent a lot of time with Jesus and the Apostles.

        Still something went terrible wrong.

        1. He took money from the purse….hum.
        2. He seems to have developed a love for money.
        3. The love of money, is the root of all kinds of evils.

        It is possible to be both selected and called, but still end up walking into deception, and face stern judgment and eternity in Hell. The example of Judas should keep us fearing the Lord, the starting point of wisdom.

  12. Read the bible and get a dictionary , search the word Tribulation and Wrath. We are not appointed for wrath but we the saints the church , we will suffer tribulation . This is the reason why people need to get prepare that way a surprise doesn’t hit you in the face when your brothers and sisters are getting kill and being persecuted wich is already happening around the world more than the usual and it will come to America, so don’t be a fool. If you belive in a pre tribulation crap , you will be in for a surprise when persecution , killings and martial law hit the streets of America with atheist, gays ,satanic and liberals. Ivarfjeld , I think you should do another article on this and make it more clear , cause I did not understand crap about this article and I know you can do a better job, unless this website has been compromised by hackers.

    1. Dear Es.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      If you belive in a pre tribulation crap , you will be in for a surprise when persecution , killings and martial law hit the streets of America with atheist, gays ,satanic and liberals…

      My comment:

      One of my warnings to the Church, is that the pre-trib doctrines leads us into errors. One of them is that the congregations falls into sleep in important matters. Like:

      1. Who is (and what is) an antichrist?

      I see a lot of confusion, and Christian leaders who teach all kinds of non-sense. I see a lot of them falling inline with the Vatican II council, just as the Jesuits desire. The Papacy is accepted, and Rome presented as a true seat of Christianity.

      2. What is the mark of the beat?

      When Christian leaders duck this question, i guess they do not read anything about this, have no clue of their present friendship with the World, and again have no clue about how new technology binds us to the end game players. When they submit to a doctrine that teach us that we will not be present on Earth when this mark is revealed, why should they bother?

      3. “Let us pray for Israel”.

      This is a classical statement from a person, who is not interested in lifting a finger to support Israel. Why should we? Israel is not us. Dispensionalism teach that the eternal covenants God made with Israel has been suspended. I guess God can suspend his covenants with the Church too?

      In conclusions:

      Christians in the dispensation camp, believe in their personal “god”. He is what they desire him to be, and obviously in covenant with them. Not with Israel.

      They do not seek the truth about 1948, 1952,1967,1973, 1981, 1996, etc. They are blinded by Replacement theology. This kind of theology rejects issues of gross importance to all believers. This is at best foolishness, and self betrayal.

      If God has suspended his covenant with Israel, so will you also be kicked out.

      1. I support Israel 100%. Am a gentile and here in America , people don’t discuss much of Israel here in America if you do they call you a bunch of names like [doomsday ] beliver or it brings an argument. The Reason i Support this site is because I saw the love you have for the Jews and not many people support them . Am a gentile and I know the Jews are God chosen people and forever they be, First the Jews then the Gentiles. As for the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican , I knew when I was a child how scary it was for me to walk into a mass , now that am older a catholic mass is nothing more than a ritual just like the witches and pagans . The Vatican is of the Devil , Ceasar sits on the throne of Rome in Vatican City and am not afraid to say that. Here in America we have a gay,liberal and satanic agenda . Gays are rising and if you speak the truth of their sins , depends where you are you can get in trouble for preaching to them. You have the liberals that are backing up the gays , atheist and satanic agenda and funding them , controlling even the media and internet. You have the satanic trying to replace the Ten Commandments with the basho met here in America in a goverment building or public display, now you have satanic that want to pray to satan in public meetings , here in America my friends this America now as we speak, we are truly living on the end times,period.

  13. Ee, what you said, “crap” is not becoming of a believer in Jesus. Jesus said we are to love one another. Even if you don’t agree. “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another, By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34&35.

    1. Nannette, what i meant was that he should have been more clear on an important article such as this and I know he can do better and more clear for the people that don’t understand. I apologize if I disrespect you brothers and sisters, keep on doing what you are doing and be accountable for eachother we need more websites like this but with diffrent issues to lead people towards Jesus Christ. Do an article of the Gospel once in a while , God Bless You.

  14. Here is how to correctly position the “rapture” using scripture.
    (a). The rapture must happen during the reign of antichrist (see 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).
    (b) The reign of antichrist begins when he gains control of the earth (see first seal Rev 6:1, Rev 13).
    (c) Jesus warns Christians to resist the Beast or antichrist ( Revelation 13:9-10).
    (d) Christian martyrdom increases dramatically because of the worldwide rule of antichrist (see fifth seal Rev 6:9-11) but not all Christians are martyred.
    (e) The Rapture happens during the Great Tribulation just prior to the Wrath of God (see sixth seal Rev 7:9,13-14)
    (f) The Wrath of God immediately follows the rapture of the church (see seventh seal, seven trumpets, seven bowls of wrath).

    Israel the nation and Jerusalem remain intact for the duration of the great Tribulation. The prophet Zechariah supports the view that 1/3 of all living Jews will repent during the tribulation immediately prior to the Lord’s return to Jerusalem. However the true gospel teaches there is only one true church made up of both Jew and Gentile believers.

    Christian seminaries for over 100 years have fallen into a ditch in accommodating the teaching of a 7 year tribulation preceded by rapture based on the errant teaching of DARBY and ANDERSON.

    Scripture teaches that Daniel’s final one-seven is divided equally where the first half represents the 3 1/2 year earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the second half represents the 3 1/2 year period of Great Tribulation at the end of this age. The “middle of the seven” separates the two halves and conceals the Church age beginning from Pentecost until the present day (Dan 9:26-27).

    Here is the complete argument demonstrating that only a 3 1/2 period of great tribulation remains prior to the return of Jesus Christ to Jerusalem –
    http://www.4164bc.info/year_of_creation.html

    1. I share your understanding of a young earth indeed !
      My understanding to your points below.

      a) Church could be rapture before AC is revealed if falling away is understood as a departure apo/stasia
      b) v9 has no mention “to the churches” as in ch. 2 and 3. These are Trib saints, not the Church who has been raptured
      d) and e)These are Trib saints, not the Church, who has been raptured
      f) g) Wrath starts at the opening of the 1st seal, and the Church (24 elders) is in heaven like John

      1. Brother in Christ
        a) In REVELATION Jesus teaches that the saints are caught up to heaven (rapture) at the sixth seal. Here the gospels and the sixth seal message are perfectly aligned.
        http://truthlife.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/the-sixth-seal-rapture-of-all-christians/
        b) The church WILL enter into the great tribulation and the CHRISTIAN aided by the HOLY SPIRIT will be the only class of person to resist SATAN even to the point of death. All other people will cave and worship the BEAST believing that they have saved their lives but they will be eternally condemned. The purpose of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is to WARN the church not the world.
        d/e) Christan’s are martyred during the fifth seal and the remaining Christians faithfully suffering for Christ will be rescued by rapture during the sixth seal. BTW did you know that your brothers and sisters in Christ are being mercilessly persecuted today by Muslims in Syria, Africa, North Korea, and the Middle-East? These are your brothers and sisters in Christ and are equally part of the true church. These suffering saints are demonstrating to us who have it easy in some countries how we too must some day also persevere during the great tribulation.
        f/g) Surely the wrath of God begins to pour out during the first seal. This is the beginning of the great tribulation. However this is also the time of Satan Throne is exalted and it furiously pours out all it’s wrath against the true church. It is only after the church has been evacuated from the entire earth by rapture (with the exception of Israel) that the earth then becomes available for GOD and JESUS CHRIST to pour the full wrath of heaven upon this earth, absent of Christians, in preparation for the Kingdom of Heaven upon Earth.

        The true church is not now exempt from suffering or persecution nor was it ever.

        JESUS SAID –
        Mt 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
        Mt 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
        Mt 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

      2. Dear youngearth

        Shalom and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        b) The church WILL enter into the great tribulation and the CHRISTIAN aided by the HOLY SPIRIT will be the only class of person to resist SATAN even to the point of death

        My reply:

        1. To remove the active “saints”, who have identified the antichrist, if possible, seems to be a huge contradiction to our calling of being a true and trustworthy witness.

        2. Jesus said that he would be with us to the end. The timing of the pre-trib rapture is not the end. There are many more episode to be played on the face of the Earth.

        3. If the pre-trib rapture is the “end”, when shall the sheep and the goats be seperated? (Matthew 25:31, onwards). Shall all the “saints” return from the wedding party, to be separated from the goats, one more time. First time they escaped secretly. One day they presumably will return from the party in Heaven, and be present in Jerusalem.

        4. Jesus will have to return to the Earth anyhow, after the antichrist has been revealed. To kill the last man of lawlessness. So in those days He will at least have witnesses present all over the Earth. Simply because His true witnesses testified globally, about a loving God, by their refusal to worship the beast.

        To all who believe in the Word of God as it is written, this might seems both logic and obvious. You have to resist the truth, to deny this. And listen to those who take a Bible verse from here and there, and make it into an theology who is very much pleasing to the papacy.

        Please be alarmed: The so-called free Churches have now, formally, accepted the Pope in Rome as a Christian leader. They have all been intoxicated by the teachers of the pre-trib doctrine. The almost absolute majority of them, have stopped calling the Pope an antichrist. Simply because they have been drilled to believe, that no one can identify the last and final antichrist. Martin Luther, John Calvin, all the Church reformers, all Baptist preachers through the ages, were “obviusly wrong”.

        We are told by our leaders, that the “saints” do not have to worry (reflect on, warn about and resist), not to take the mark of the beast.

        The fruits of this kind of theology, is a defenseless Church, who will easily walk into deceptions.

        No doubts, Jesus asked if the Son of Man will find faith on the Earth, when he returns. Or just a huge multitude of religious people, misusing His name.

  15. Question for my bros that don’t believe in a preTrib rapture of the Church.
    How can we apply this command from Paul ? Do you really want to pray for the AC ?!?

    1 Timothy 2:1-2
    Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

    1. Dear Stephan

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      1 Timothy 2:1-2.

      My reply:

      To my brothers who believe in a pre-trib rapture of the living saints.

      The true Church has never been able to decide how the gentiles shall live. But the true Church has always prayed for space and platforms where the gospel can be preached and shared. And such prayers have been answered.

      During the ages, horrible regimes of wicked men have succeeded each other. But the true Church has always been able to share the gospel.

      In the days of Paul, sharing the gospel in occupied Israel and within the Roman Empire, was done with the risk of being quickly promoted to Heaven. Read: Executed, beheaded. His extortion to young Timothy must be read into this context. To pray for, and bless a King to continue living in the flesh, has never been Biblical. It was not in the time of Paul, and it is not biblical today.

      We do not pray for the antichrist, nor his children to continue on their wicked ways. We pray for their regimes to be of a kind, that the gospel can be shared. The regime of the last and final Antichrist will be the absolute worst of all the regimes that have passed away into the garbage dumps of history. Still the gospel will be preached, even by an angel flying in mid-air.

      1. Dear Ivar,

        We are told to “pray so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life” in all godliness and reverence…
        do you seriously think that should apply during the Trib ?

        The AC system is there for kill the Trib saints, according to the supreme will of God. So this command of Paul applies to the Church, until it is translated.

        Your argument “Still the gospel will be preached, even by an angel flying in mid-air.” proves the pre-trig understanding : that the Church, whose main command and responsibility is to be salt and light to the world/Great Commission, is absent from Earth during the Trib.

        Her responsibility has been transferred to
        1) an Angel and
        2) those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel, And
        3) I will give power to my two witnesses.

        No Church available to do the job sorry,we have dinner plans !

      2. Dear stephan

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You asked:

        do you seriously think that should apply during the Trib ?

        My reply:

        I do not say how Christians should pray, nor apply conditional messages into all circumstances. You challenged me to put this instruction to Timothy into context.

        Bible texts can easily be taken out of context, and misused. Like when Paul tell Timothy to take some wine, it might not be applicable to my health condition.

        In regards to dinner plans, my best guess is that the dinner party will still go on after the Antichrist has been revealed. But it might not be like a banquette. Dinner will most likely be celebrated as they did in the early Church. Wherever God has prepared a table, with the enemy roaming around, just next door.

  16. Here is another plain command of Paul to the Church; it fully applies to the Church, in its context. But this command cannot apply to the Tribulation saints ! how could they be a subject to the governing AC/FP authorities that will be expressly possessed by the Dragon itself ?

    Romans 13:1 Submit to Government
    13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

    We the Church shall be celebrating with Jesus in Heaven during the Trib, “comfort one another with these words”

    1. Dear stephan

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      Romans 13:1. Submit to Government
      13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

      My reply:

      This is an interesting subject. Because if this verse is taken out of context, we end up with pure evil. If the state has exclusivity to what is right and wrong, we would all end up supporting Nazism.

      Peter the the Apostles did not submit to the instruction of the judge, to stop talking about this man Jesus (Yeshua).

      1. Dear Ivar,
        Context is respected.
        In Paul’s time, the romans and their emperor were not much better than the nazis and Hitler…
        They killed 1M jews in Jerusalem in 1 single year in AD70…
        still Paul says to be subjected – as long as it doesn’t oppose the commandments given by God, I agree.

        In the Trib, the AC and FP are obviously unredeemable and 100% against God’s laws and principles, so no need to pray and be subject to them.
        That commandment was given to the Church during the Church age and doesn’t apply to the Trib Saints because they are not part of the Church that will have been raptured by then.

      2. Dear Stephan

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        In Paul’s time, the romans and their emperor were not much better than the nazis and Hitler…
        They killed 1M jews in Jerusalem in 1 single year in AD70…

        My reply:

        Paul’s letter to the Romans, is an extortion to the believing Jews in Italy, in Rome. Paul do surely not want to express his support for the Roman Emperor. The Apostle wants to avoid bloodshed. Just like Jesus said, “enough of this”. Any plans for an armed rebellion against the occupying forces of ancient Israel, were not supported by neither The Messiah, nor his servants.

        Next: God can permit (set in) any Government of his desire. Even the Nazi Government in Germany. To punish. Both the Germans, all the nations who refused to open the doors for the Jews in Europe, the the Jews who refused to leave before Nazism took full control. The majority of Jews in Germany resisted the Zionist call from 1880 onwards, a clear cut call to return home.

        Many Jews accepted their calling. Already in 1929 were the Jews a majority in Jerusalem, in a British occupied mandate zone. Do not forget that Tev Aviv was founded in 1909. By Jews who had returned home, as the Spirit of God had led them.

        The home coming of the Jews before Hitler rose to power in Berlin in 1932-1933, triggered massive Jew-hate. There was a massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929. Satan have always worked overtime to call his children to attack the Jewish people, and God’s plans for redemption in Zion.

        The Holocaust is a man made disaster. But out of the ashes of Poland and Germany, came the rebirth of Zion. The state of Israel. Just as Father, Son and Holy Spirit had planned.

        Through world history, Christians have been slaughtered in the line of fire. It will any day be better to be killed and promoted to the kingdom of Heaven, than to be fooled to become a killer.

        It was not men of righteousness who removed Nazism from Berlin, but equally wicked Communists. Who was the worst of Hitler and Stalin? That is a debate we can run for weeks. The simple truth is that God let the ungodly fight each other. Our job is to preach the gospel.

    2. Jesus warned that Satan would one day establish a one world government which he identified as the “throne of the beast” (see Rev 16:10, Rev 6:2).

      Jesus explicitly warned Christians not to worship the beast or to receive his mark.

      Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
      Rev 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
      Rev 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed.
      This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

      Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
      Rev 13:17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

      This is the final command that Jesus gives his one true church which is to faithfully resist Satan even to the point of death.

      1. Dear youngearth

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Thanks for this comment. Everyone must talk with their their priests or pastor about these issues:

        1. Shall we support the One Word Government?
        2. Shall we accept that the state is the exclusive authority on what is right and wrong?
        3. Shall we accept the Pope as a Christian leader?
        4. Shall we accept to be “chipped”, or could this be accepting the mark of the beast?

        You might be surprised by the answer you will get. Or rather by the confusion that occurs, when your essential questions have been asked.

  17. Amen Stephan, we will be in heaven during the wrath of God. Have you noticed how angry people get over this subject, and who call us pre-tribber’s names? Just because we don’t agree with them. Are we doing the same, no! God’s word will be proven true soon enough.

    1. Dear Nannette,

      re: we will be in heaven during the wrath of God

      I completely agree that the one true church will be in heaven while the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. This means that Christians should not expect to endure the seven trumpets or seven bowls of God’s wrath upon this earth UNLESS they belong to the the 144,000 chosen Jewish males or live in that land of Israel which will also be protected from heavens wrath. HOWEVER prior to that the LORD will stop restraining SATAN and this happens when the FIRST SEAL is opened. The fury of SATAN against Christ and his body, the one true church, causes many CHRISTIAN MARTYRS all the way into the FIFTH SEAL. The Rapture of the one true church happens only during the SIXTH SEAL, probably 2 or 3 years into the great tribulation and before all Christians are slain by the one world ruler Beast. The wrath of GOD immediately follows the rapture but only after a great amount of Christian blood has flowed. Jesus warned his one true church in REVELATION that it will face severe testing just before he returns to Jerusalem bearing the title – KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

      The PRE-TRIBULATION rapture story on the other hand is a man made myth which I have heard for for over 35 years beginning when I was a teenage Christian. I only know that people have made a lot of money marketing and selling this idea. These “teachers” will not repent because it might jeopardize their position of “authority” and risk their cash stream from books, appearances, and movies. Instead of recognizing their error they keep doubling down which has added to the confusion of many Christians. Please put aside their fantasy books and read Revelation over and over again until the Spirit gives you true understanding.

  18. Dear Ivar,

    You wrote:

    “…It is funny how many Christians have accepted a Jesuit doctrine, that claim that the antichrist is a supreme power, that can push the Holy Spirit away from the Earth…”

    **************************************************************************
    I never said any such thing nor do I believe that. G-d Almighty will remove the restraining power of His Holy Spirit (see 2 Thes. 2:7–the restraining power is referred to as He in the Greek) from the earth along with the Bride, in order to facilitate Antichrist’s reign (“…to test the people of the earth…”).

    *****************************************************************************

    “… 1. The Holy Spirit will be present on Earth during the Great Tribulation. No one can push Him away…”

    *****************************************************************************
    It is undoubted that the Holy Spirit will be present wherever He chooses to be (Jesus indicated that the Holy Spirit goes where He wants to go in John 3, during His discussion with Nicodemus). Whether or not He will choose to be here on earth during Antichrist’s reign remains to be seen.

    *******************************************************************************
    “…2. People will be saved during the Great Tribulation, because the Holy Spirit is present.

    ******************************************************************************

    Why must the Holy Spirit be present in a general way? Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit was not present on the earth when He (Jesus) was here–that He (Jesus) would send the Holy Spirit to His disciples after He (Jesus) returned to Heaven to be with the Father. It is the Father who draws unbelievers to Jesus in order to save them. (See John 17 and Philippians 1:6–when the Bible, in most translations, merely says “God” it is speaking of God the Father). Otherwise, the children of Israel could not have been saved since the Holy Spirit was not given in a general way to believers until Pentecost. He is our “Helper” in holiness (Jesus designated Him as such) but there is no indication that that will continue during the testing of the Tribulation. The Tribulation Saints are constantly exhorted to stay strong and to persevere in their faith.

    *********************************************************************************
    “…3. All Christians have for 2.000 years taught correctly about the Holy Spirit as the lone power that can save a human being.

    *******************************************************************************
    All true Christians, after Pentecost, have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit–that is true. Romans 8:9 assures us that all true believers have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit or they are not even Christians.
    But what of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? The Ruach Ha Kodesh was certainly known about during their day, but He was ON them when they prophesied–and WITH them in guiding and protecting them but He was not IN them (see Jesus’ words in John 14 as He teaches His disciples about the Holy Spirit). Yet, they were saved–no one doubts that. Christians have a very special privilege in being Messiah’s Body–His Bride. No other bears that designation (even though Israel is said to be YHWH’s wife).
    *********************************************************************************
    “… 4. If we believe that God’s wrath is being revealed on mankind during the Great Tribulation, is not the Holy Spirit a part of God anymore? When did “god” change?

    *********************************************************************************
    G-d says that He does not change. From that, we understand that He exists eternally in three persons–Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, we only have Scripture to teach us about how each Person of the Godhead functions. And we have only been told as much as the Father wants revealed to us (perhaps it is only what He knows we can assimilate–see John 16:12).

    **********************************************************************************
    “…In conclusion:

    The Pope can only enter Jerusalem, as a guest of Zionist Israel. His powers in Jerusalem is restricted and limited, held back by the Government of Israel. When Zionism is removed, not by God but by the free will of wicked men, the “Holy See” can set up his abominations on the Temple Mount itself. At any time.

    Now, who is holding back the present wickedness, the powers of evil?

    It is the free will of men, to give the antichrist powers, and to lift him up.

    The Holy Spirit has given us us all a clear cut message. He was warned us in advance, about people believing in lies, and replacing the truth. So “be my guest!.”

    **********************************************************************************

    Are you actually saying that it is “Zionism” that is holding back the Antichrist? That men would be powerful enough to restrain the power of Satan? No, my friend, we are told in Scripture to NEVER make light of the power of Satan. Jude 1:9–“But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” And men are very puny compared to even angels. From the Jude passage, we are led to the understanding that only the Godhead has the power to restrain Satan.

  19. As an afterthought, I think you are letting your animosity toward the Vatican rule your thinking. While I agree that there is likely much that is demonic abiding there, I do not think we can know that the Pope is the Antichrist “Beast”. As a “religious leader” he is probably a much better candidate for the False Prophet than the politico/military leader that the Beast (Antichrist) will likely be. Although, I grant you, it is something of a moot point, as the False Prophet “speaks with the voice of a dragon” (in other words he is depicted as speaking for Satan while the Antichrist acts for Satan). I expect that we should pay careful attention to the description of the False Prophet as having “two horns like those of a lamb” (Revelation 13:11). The lamb imagery is something of a strong clue that the False Prophet will pretend to be Messiah’s representative on the earth and the Head of the Church, (which of course, is what the RCC claims). Many true believers have gone to brutal martyrdom for insisting that Jesus is the Head of the Church and not the Pope. As an added bit of evidence, the Pope calls Himself the “Vicar of Christ”–which actually means “in place of Christ”.

    1. Somehow, I mistakenly typed, “the Pope calls Himself…” instead of “the Pope calls himself…”. Please excuse the error.

    2. Dear job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Your question if the Pope is an antichrist, or the false prophet, is interesting. Truly an important issue.

      Let me first underline, that we need to define what and antichrist is. First than, the debate can be fruitful.

      1. An antichrist is a person who deny that Jesus has come in the flesh. In the sense, fully shared our humanity. The Pope denies this, outright. The Bishop of Rome claims that “Jesus” is the son of a sinless goddess, the very co-matrix. Being born without neither a human father, nor a human mother, the “Jesus” according to Rome is a fiction.

      2. An antichrist, will present to you an copy-cat Messiah. A replacement of the true Messiah. There are many copy cats. Like the “Jesus” presented to us by the Jehovah Witnesses. And also the New Age movement’s, “Jesus, the brother of Krishna”.

      3. The last and final antichrist according to the prophet Daniel, is very much a worldly leader. The king that will be lifted up by the other kings, 10 of them in total.

      The Pope is the ultimate kingmaker. He is not only the claimed replacement of Christ, the Vicarius Christi. He is also the head of a state. Infallible and not touchable, a law onto him self. And not only is the Vatican a state. This state is accepted by 180 nations, has a seat in the UN, and ambassadors from the four corners of the Earth, serving in the court of the Pope.

      In conclusion:

      The Bishop of Rome, the “Holy See” is not the only candidate to this title, the antichrist. But surely he is the most powerful of them all. I am open for the Pope appointing a replacement “Pope” to be lifted up. At the moment we have two Popes in Rome, and the first Jesuit Pope ever.

      The seat of the Pope never changes. It is infallible. False Prophets come and goes…..

      1. I have no doubt that the Vatican is part of the Antichrist SYSTEM just as all other antichrists were and are (such as those the Apostle John was teaching against in 1 John–the Gnostic “Christians” who preached that Jesus could not possibly have had a real flesh and blood body because the flesh, as part of the physical realm, is evil).

        Satan has always set up his structures of darkness (even though they may even have the appearance of light) as a base for his ultimate power play–the unfolding of THE Satan-incarnate Antichrist. When the Emperor Constantine began the process of marrying the Roman church to temporal power, it was undoubtedly part of Satan’s plan. Many Christians down through the Church Age have been convinced that the Pope is an antichrist and some (including a few Catholics) have even been convinced that the last Pope will be THE Antichrist. Time will tell.

        The arrival of a Jesuit Pope certainly gives one pause for thought. To have someone who is under the authority of the Black Pope (the Jesuit Superior General) rise to the “Throne of St. Peter” has supposedly long been an ambition of the Jesuits. Now that they have realized their ambition, it will be interesting to watch what they do with it.

        I also found this item interesting: “Pope Francis will be accompanied on his first visit to the Middle East by Argentine Rabbi Abraham Skorka and Muslim leader Omar Abboud — two friends from Buenos Aires.” Pope Francis is wasting no time in consolidating his power.

      2. Dear job3627

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        I do not know, if you have reflected on the purpose of the Great Tribulation? Why do God punish people on the Earth, when He will anyhow punish them eternally in Hell?

        The most convincing answer, is that God desire mankind to be shaken so badly, that they will understand the reality of what comes next. And give them a chance to repent.

        Unfortunately, many deceived souls will never get the clue, not even inside the Great Tribulation. Abraham is crystal clear, to the rich man who has landed in a very hot place. If they do not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not even believe if a man is raised from the death….

        They will continue to cling to their idols, and curse God…You see them rejecting the truth today. The delusion they have been afflicted with, is so powerful, that they are beyond any hope.

        But there will be those who comes out of the Great Tribulation, repented, saved and ready for eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    1. Dear mido777

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Interesting link. The defense of both the pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib view on the rapture is known. There is also a doctrine that claims there will be no rapture. It is the resurrected souls who have been made alive, and will meet the Lord in the air. We will all face the grave (Sheol), and from there we will rise.

      Whatever it might be. We all know that the rapture will not take place before it takes place. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it!. Do not hold on to the nearest table, and resist this mighty move by the Spirit of God…..

      1. Not at all; i am open 4 Word of God and corrections. We all should have humility and open 4 truth.

        …but I lean on pretrib. It seems to me that you dont understand difference beetwen tribulation and great tribulation (by the way, Jesus said for great trib that is one of a kind, the world yet have not seen such mess) and that you have both eyes via Vatican (you remind me on my A7day neighbour) and thats not good.

        Keep the good work on this site…..

      2. Dear mido777.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        I lean towards the mid-trib. It is anyhow a minority view. Neither a minority view or a majority view is made correct by the numbers who support it.

        I am very much aware of the pre-trib doctrine. If you did not know I resist it, I could have written a very convincing article, defending it. And you would believe I was a pre-trib preacher. I have been raised a Christian, by pre-trib teachers.

        There will always be tribulation. But the Great Tribulation is marked, by a radical change. The wrath of God is poured out on the Earth. The question is if the true saints will remain on Earth in this age, or not. I believe the Lord will use his saints in this age. I can use the Bible to defend this view, among other scriptures: Revelation chapter 11.

  20. I think that rapture is mystery revealed to Paul. Body of Christ also. Mystery on iniquity also. It seems fair that boy of Christ will be saved 4 party and rejoycing. I think there is difference beetwen Church and revelation saints. Keep in mind, without Church there will be angels proclaming gospel, 2 witnesses and 144000 sealed Isrelites. So, they will preach. Today we shoul do the same thing. Pri trib of otherwise, we should die to ourselwes and share gospel.

    Love in Jesus

  21. Ivar, purpose 4 great trib is to Israel to call on YHWH to see him pierced (zach 12:10, hos 5:15).

    And I think, Cat Church is church in rev 17 and she will be destroyed by world system aka beast. ( Like suni muslim hate other kind of muslim, other religions hate roman catholics). Devil is master of confusion, Catholic saints going straigth to lake of fire doing stuff 4 god (and some really good stuff). Brilliant work by shining one

  22. Dear Ivar, you wrote:

    “,,,I do not know, if you have reflected on the purpose of the Great Tribulation? Why do God punish people on the Earth, when He will anyhow punish them eternally in Hell?,,,”

    ******************************************************************************

    I expect that it is a time of testing–that is what the risen Jesus said in Revelation 3:10. It is likely a final separation of the wheat and the chaff–the wheat and the tares, the good fish and the bad fish, etc. The Lord told us repeatedly that there would be a final test of “the people who belong to this world”. G-d is not willing that any would perish but that all would come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9—” The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” I believe that many will come to repentance during the Tribulation and be martyred for it.

    *********************************************************************************

    “…The most convincing answer, is that God desire mankind to be shaken so badly, that they will understand the reality of what comes next. Unfortunately, many deceived souls will never get the clue, not even inside the Great Tribulation. They will continue to cling to their idols, and curse God…You see them rejecting the truth today. The delusion they have been afflicted with, is so powerful, that they are beyond any hope…”

    *****************************************************************************

    The inhabitants of the earth will be given powerful inducements to repentance and faith during the Tribulation. But there will be those who are so completely possessed by Satan, that they will resist even then. That is what I fear those who take the Mark of the Beast will, in fact, be doing–with full knowledge that they are doing so. Satanists view G-d as their enemy–they insist that “evil is good and good is evil”–so complete is their delusion. They will have committed blasphemy against the Holly Spirit and I expect they will, indeed, be “beyond any hope.”

    I have a Jewish friend who has, so far, not been very successful in his evangelism efforts with his parents and siblings. But he has left packets for each of them “should I suddenly disappear”. In it, he has included a Bible and information on what would then be coming over the earth, urging them to make the right choice. He believes/hopes that they would come to repentance.

    *************************************************************************************

    “…But there will be those who comes out of the Great Tribulation, repented, saved and ready for eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven…”
    ***************************************************************************

    Amen.

  23. Steve Spurlin said:

    “Ivarfjeld, I don’t believe that I misunderstood what you said. I also will state my agreement with points 1 & 2 of you reply. Scripture does teach the “harpazo” of the Church, which is identified as the rapture based upon the Latin Vulgate’s usage of the word that is transliterated as such. I believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, and Revelation, as well as other passages teach the appearance of a final and ultimate pseudo-Christ following the removal of the Church.
    I only partially agree with point 3. Yes, all who are identified as “Israel” who have not trusted Messiah will be left to face the 70th week of Daniel; the final week owed by God to Israel for their rebellion and failure to keep the Sabbath years.
    However, “all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25-29), but only after the rebellious have been purged from the Land by God’s judgment within the Great Tribulation period.
    Much of what you wrote is appropriate when critiquing Replacement Theology. But Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial, Dispensational theology does not teach what Replacement Theology does teach.”
    ************************************************************************************

    Amen, Steve. The “Kingdom Now” segment of Dominionism actively preaches “Replacement Theology” AND OPENLY MOCKS THOSE OF US who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. The Kingdom Now people insist that it is the job of Christians to put Jesus’ Kingdom in place and that Israel has been rejected in favor of the Church.

    Ivar, you are quite in error to connect those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture (a strong part of Dispensationalism) with Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology occurs in many forms of Dominion Theology (in its many guises, such as Covenant Theology, Kingdom Now, Joel’s Army, New Apostolic Reformation, the ill-named “Seven-Mountain” Theology, etc.) There is NO connection between Replacement Theology and Dispensationalism (which has ALWAYS maintained that there would, one day, be a Kingdom restored to national Israel). Please stop insisting that there is. In general, those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, love and support Israel with our prayers AND our political and monetary pledges. We understand that there is and has always been a plan to restore the Kingdom to Israel in the Millennium.

    1. As a further note, it is important to remember that any individual figure within Dominionism may not endorse Replacement Theology. As an example, C. Peter Wagner–one of the founders of the New Apostolic Reformation believes that “all Israel will be saved” before Jesus returns. Of course, he also believes that it is the mission of those in the New Apostolic Reformation “…to claim the ‘Seven Mountains’ of, and “…take dominion over business, government, media, arts/ entertainment, education, family and religion” as a preface to Messiah’s return. (One wonders if he remembers that “Mystery Babylon” is said to sit on “seven mountains” in Revelation 17:9–not a very auspicious name for their theology.) 😉

  24. Dear Ivar,

    You said:

    “Pre-Tribulation, Pre-Millennial, Dispensational theology…..This is the view that the Church will be raptured, Israel left behind, because God’s promises to her has been suspended…”
    ****************************************************************************************
    NO! I really don’t know where you got that idea. It certainly is NOT the view of mainstream, American Dispensationalism. It may be the view of some individual somewhere (or even some cultish group) but it is not the view of MANY, MANY Pre-Trib, Pre-Millennial folks like us. We really do not deserve your scolding. We believe that Israel will be left behind because “she” cannot go with the Church (and there will be many professing “Christians” who will be left behind as well because they are not part of the true Church–the Bride of Christ. It does not mean that G-d’s promises to Israel are “suspended”–it means that they were postponed during the Church Age that will end when the Bride is snatched away in the Rapture. But Scripture tells us that G-d has made a provision for Jews to flee to a place of safety where they will be preserved throughout the Tribulation.
    **********************************************************************************
    “…The particular side of this kind of theology, is that those who refused to accept the Lordship of Jesus, will get a new chance to repent, also after their punishment inside the Great Tribulation…”
    **************************************************************************************
    The Tribulation is for the purpose of testing all those who do not belong to the earth and not Heaven (as the true Church does–heaven is our home). After the seven years of testing, those who make the correct choice—for Messiah–will be granted eternal life.
    ***************************************************************************************
    “…Despite taking the mark of the beast, they will experience a new grace period in the Millennium kingdom…”
    ***************************************************************************************
    Again, I really don’t know where you got this idea. Dispensationalists have always taught that there is NO HOPE for anyone who takes the Mark of the Beast. Please stop misrepresenting people who really don’t deserve your scorn.

    1. *correction* My post should read, “The Tribulation is for the purpose of testing all those who presently BELONG TO THE EARTH and not to Heaven (as the…

  25. The Rapture is for the faithful church only. For the unfaithful, there is indeed NO Rapture. As Enoch was Raptured before the Great Flood, so will the faithful be raptured before the Great Tribulation. The FINAL ANTICHRIST will be revealed in the middle of the Great Tribulation, the raptured saints will see it from heaven and will come back to rescue Israel with the returning Jesus, as part of His holy army. All these are written in the Bible, and there is NO place for a replacement theology.

    1. Yes, Rome Is Whore, I would agree. The faithful Church (the Bride) will, like Enoch before the Flood, be removed to Heaven, before the Tribulation. The faithful of Israel, like Noah, will be preserved THROUGH the Tribulation, in a place of safety, on the earth. Jesus will return at the end of the Tribulation to establish His Kingdom on earth–which will be administered by Israel through the Millennium. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed and once again lead a rebellion of men, but he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (where the Antichrist, False Prophet and those who took the Mark of the Beast will have already been for 1,000 years). The Eternal State will then be put in place. All the resurrected saints (both the Israelites and the Gentiles) will then be the one people of G-d and they will dwell with the Father and the Lamb forever in the New Jerusalem. There will be no Temple in the Eternal State because the Father and the Lamb (the Lord Jesus) will be the center of worship. That is what Scripture tells us in the Book of Revelation.

      1. Think about it: of the whole earth, 8 were saved, 1 was raptured, at the Great Flood. Will this ratio still apply at the Great Tribulation? (We definitely have a much greater population now than Noah’s time.)
        P.S. The Rapture includes the faithful who died in Christ, both the OT and NT saints. The Scriptures says Abraham believed in Christ! How beautiful!

  26. Ivar, you wrote:

    “…Judas is always an interesting topic, when we debate a man who lost his way.

    1. He was chosen to be with Jesus.
    2. He accepted His call.
    3. He spent a lot of time with Jesus and the Apostles.

    Still something went terrible wrong.

    1. He took money from the purse….hum.
    2. He seems to have developed a love for money.
    3. The love of money, is the root of all kinds of evils…”
    *****************************************************************************

    I expect that Judas was never really chosen because he did not want to be. Jesus, Himself refers to Judas as a “devil” in John 6:70, saying that He (Jesus) had picked the twelve but that one of them, i.e. Judas Iscariot was a “devil”. Judas was apparently, at the least, an opportunist–he might have even been into the occult. His father was a Pharisee and Jesus reserved some of his sharpest criticism for them–calling them “sons of the devil” which He did not seem to apply to ordinary sinners. In John 12 we read of a dinner given at the home of “Simon the leper” (by that time he had been healed or no one would have gone to his home for supper). We also know that this Simon was a Pharisee and that he was Judas Iscariot’s father. In addition, we know that this Simon looked down his nose at Jesus, insisting to himself, that if Jesus really was a prophet, He would have known that the woman who was touching Him was a sinner. How’s that for ingratitude after Jesus had healed Simon of leprosy? And since Judas knew where to find those who were plotting Jesus’ death, was it Simon who told him? Judas was not a saved man turned to evil. He undoubtedly never belonged to Jesus in the first place.

    ************************************************************************************
    “…It is possible to be both selected and called, but still end up walking into deception, and face stern judgment and eternity in Hell. The example of Judas should keep us fearing the Lord, the starting point of wisdom…”
    ****************************************************************************************

    We should ALWAYS fear the Lord for that IS the beginning of wisdom and that is part of the Holy Spirit’s ministry in our lives (see Isaiah 11:2). But the fact that Judas was able to do what he did, denies the whole idea of him surrendering to Messiah as Lord. In my opinion, it is pretty obvious that Judas never recognized who Jesus was and is–nor did his father.

    1. Dear job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      I expect that Judas was never really chosen because he did not want to be. Jesus, Himself refers to Judas as a “devil”

      In deed, this is an interesting topic.

      1. If Judas was not chosen by Jesus, who did chose Him?
      2. Did Satan select the team members of Jesus and the Apostles?

      We must have the scriptures as the highest authority in all matters of the Christian faith. Satan was not inside the heart of Judas, before Satan entered. Neither will he be inside mine. And heaven forbid, that I will betray Jesus, and walk away with 20 pieces of silver.

      We are all capable of becoming a friend of the World, and the enemy of the gospel. Any day. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

      1. Dear Venner af Israel

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        That is my point. As an important doctrine of true Christianity:

        We are all chosen, and called to fellowship with Jesus. But we all have the ability, and can by our free will, resist and even reject Him. With the horrible consequences that will follow.

        Many people suffer for the wrong choices they have made, and their refusal to repent.

      2. Dear Ivar, you wrote,

        “1. If Judas was not chosen by Jesus, who did chose Him? 2. Did Satan select the team members of Jesus and the Apostles?”

        *************************************************************************
        To your first point: I think I should clarify what I meant by Judas not being “chosen”. He was called and selected to be a disciple–that is obvious–Jesus said that He selected the twelve. But Judas was not “chosen” because he was not in the elect (that is what it means to be in the “elect of G-d”–those headed for eternal life. Jesus said that “many are called, but few are chosen.” As to your second point, I don’t think I will dignify that with a response. 😦
        *************************************************************************
        “…We must have the scriptures as the highest authority in all matters of the Christian faith…”
        ****************************************************************************
        Yes–the WHOLE counsel of G-d, as found in every word of the Bible, is the foundation of faith.
        ***************************************************************************
        “…Satan was not inside the heart of Judas, before Satan entered. Neither will he be inside mine. And heaven forbid, that I will betray Jesus, and walk away with 20 pieces of silver…”
        **************************************************************************
        The number is actually 30 pieces of silver that Judas accepted to betray Jesus (see Matthew 26:15). Ivar, please, for your own good, I would suggest that you go on a “Bible Quest”. By that I mean, you probably should spend a bit of time going through the ENTIRE Bible. I’m sorry to have to say this to you but, do you “know that you know that you know” that you belong to Messiah? 2 Cor. 13:5 says, “Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.” Your attitude toward others in the faith leaves a bit to be desired. A read through 2 Cor. 13 might be a good idea.

        ***************************************************************************** “…We are all capable of becoming a friend of the World, and the enemy of the gospel. Any day….”
        *************************************************************************
        Romans 8:7 and James 4:4 tell us that to be a friend of the world makes you an enemy of G-d. Indeed, I WAS a friend of the world when I was enslaved to sin. But Messiah freed me from my life of sin and made me a child of G-d. Romans 5:8-11 says, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
        Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation…”

        Do you really think that the post-Resurrection Peter, James or John would have betrayed the Lord Jesus? Peter and James went to martyr’s deaths proclaiming the truth. We have the same Holy Spirit. Why then would we be so capable of betraying Him “Any Day” ?

  27. Ivar, you said:

    “Once saved, always saved. That were one of the core doctrines of John Calvin. I am not a Calvinist.

    We have to ask what kind of builders we are. Jesus spoke about foolish builders. They were not foolish because they had not heard the gospel nor because they had not received the gospel with joy. They were foolish because they did not continue to build on the Rock.

    I can become one of these fools. And so can you.

    To loose our salvation, we have to walk away. Jesus will never walk away from us. No one who desire to stay put can be snatched from this hands. But if we walk away, and do no longer follow the Word of God, it is possible for any of us to walk directly into the wide gates of Hell.”

    My reply:

    The apostle Paul wrote: “If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
    1 Corinthians 3:15

    Jesus said he loses nobody. If any of his people walked away, he would lose them, and that would mean he was wrong. The apostle Paul says you can suffer loss but will never-the-less be saved,

    Why do you say otherwise?

    Your false doctrine goes hand in hand with keeping Torah and Post Tribulation Rapture. You should stop preaching it!

  28. Ivar

    You said in your article – The Pre-Trib Delusions
    “The anti-Christ was identified by all the Church reformers during the Reformation. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin agreed that the Pope of Rome was an antichrist.”

    My reply:
    Martin Luther was not someone you would call a lover of Jewish people was he? In fact, If he were to post his beliefs regarding Jews, you would probably spam him! John Calvin believed “once saved, always saved”, which you say is a false doctrine.

    So why do you quote these men as trustworthy supporters of your belief about who is antichrist?

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You asked:

      So why do you quote these men as trustworthy supporters of your belief about who is antichrist?

      My reply:

      In the years 1520-1536 A.D, the topic of the restoration of Israel was a non-starter. There was no Jewish homeland om the mountains of Zion to support.

      There were other important issues, that needed to be settled.
      1. Shall people be permitted to preach the Word of God, without the authorization of the Papacy?
      2. Shall the German, Dutch, the Brits and Danes be permitted to read the Word of God in their own language?
      3. Shall ordinary people be permitted to read the Bible, and proclaim that the Word of God is the highest authority in all matters of faith, and not the Papacy?

      Jesus of the Bible raised up men like Martin Luther, John Calvin and the Westley brothers to gain the freedom that you have today. They were surely not right on all issues, and some of their disagreements were never solved. Since I am a baptists, I will claim that true Apostolic Baptists for centuries, had held on to what Calvin, Luther and the others just had rediscovered. The true Baptists had for 1.000 years said that the Church of Rome can not be trusted. It is a false Church, with a flimsy foundation, and beyond repair.

      I do have a privilege that Martin Luther never had. I am able to look back on the restoration of Israel, and support what Jesus the Messiah has done in my generation. I hope that Martin begged for mercy, and asked Jesus to forgive his sins. Just like I will have to do too.

  29. Ivar

    In one of your replies to Job 3627 you said:

    “I do not know, if you have reflected on the purpose of the Great Tribulation? Why do God punish people on the Earth, when He will anyhow punish them eternally in Hell?

    The most convincing answer, is that God desire mankind to be shaken so badly, that they will understand the reality of what comes next. And give them a chance to repent.”

    My reply:

    The Tribulation is the seventieth week of the prophecy given to Daniel. Dan 9:24-27. The angel begins the prophecy by telling Daniel who and what it concerns (HIS PEOPLE AND HIS HOLY CITY)
    “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy”.

    Although it will undoubtedly affect the whole world, it is centred on Jerusalem and the Jews. Not Christians, whose transgression – sins – and righteousness is already dealt with by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. Those who are in Christ before the Tribulation begins will not be their during that seventieth week. Why would they be? It would serve no purpose of the prophecy. And God doesn’t put his wrath on his own children!

    And please don’t go back to arguing about how Christians suffer persecution and tribulation today. That entire prophecy is only about God’s dealings with Jews and Jerusalem, from the Babylon to Christ’s return.

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      And God doesn’t put his wrath on his own children!

      My reply:

      This is an important issue. Job lost everything. His children and all his belongings. God permitted this to happen…For a purpose. That Job should not (and did not) renounce his faith in God the almighty, in the midst of events that must have been felt like horrific. I can see no reason why this should not happen to me, if Jesus desire and permit my self to be tested in this way.

      1. Ivar,
        That does not answer the point I made regarding God’s purpose for the Tribulation. You are retreating to the same old argument about persecution and tribulation being common to all God’s people. The Tribulation isn’t the same. It is specifically for Jews and Jerusalem. Which completely undermines your accusations about Pre-Tribulationists supporting a form of replacement theology.

        Apart from that fact, you would have to be on another planet not to see that the greatest support for Israel within the Church comes from Pre-Trib Dispensationalists.

      2. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        Apart from that fact, you would have to be on another planet not to see that the greatest support for Israel within the Church comes from Pre-Trib Dispensationalists.

        My comment:

        Absolutely not. Have you not seen all the great posters of the Pope in the streets of Jerusalem?

        There are millions of Roman Catholics who are tourists in Israel every year. Everyone present them selves as true friends of Israel. Also Obama, the “greatest friends of Israel” of them all…..

        The question remains:
        1. Do you acknowledge that the Jewish people are the chosen People of God, today?
        2. Do you proclaim that Jerusalem shall not be divided?
        3. Do you fight with the Jews, for their right to live everywhere in Judea and Samaria?
        etc.

        If the promises to Israel is suspended, we do not stand in unity with her, as Ruth explained. Its not enough to eat oranges from Israel, to be a true Friend of the Jewish state.

      3. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        The Tribulation isn’t the same. It is specifically for Jews and Jerusalem. Which completely undermines your accusations about Pre-Tribulationists supporting a form of replacement theology.

        My comment:

        Absolutely not. If the Great Tribulation is for Jews and Jerusalem, that the Jewish people surely has been replaced, by those who will escape. And not only escape. They are invited to a galla of a party, while the Jews are suffering.

        This invitation to a party seem to be itching in the ears, of people who increasingly walk into apostasy, deception and lukewarmness. But still claim they are the “true Church of Jesus the Messiah”.

        Most evangelical Christians do not suffer for a second for their faith, and have probably completely stopped sharing the gospel. But the Jewish settlers do witness about a living God, who restored Israel in 1948. And who will punish all the nations who wages war against her.

        Let it also be said, that it is a huge contradiction, that whose who feel they will escape the trouble, is those who do not face any trouble today. But all who stand united with Israel, and who already face persecution and massive trouble, are convinced from the scripture that the pre-trib doctrine is an illusion, that leads the Christians into a kind of self betrayal.

        If you do not feel you will be here when the Anti-Christ arrives, please wake up. Just take a look on who have been hailed inside Israel today.

  30. Ivar,

    I will give you a straight and honest answer to your question.

    Yes, I acknowledge that the Jewish people are the chosen People of God today. I don’t believe God has suspended Israel’s promises. But I do see that the majority of them have turned their backs on him. And that is one of the things that will be dealt with during the Tribulation in accordance with Daiel’s prophecy.

    Now, will you give me a straight and honest reply to the point I made?

    1. Dear Phil Mayo.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Yes: The “problem: with Jews who are not waiting for the true Messiah, will be dealt with inside the Great Tribulation. But we will both be there too.

      The fact that we will not face God’s wrath, has to be put into the eternal perspective. There is no wrath to be found in the Kingdom of Heaven.

      It is not true to preach that Christians will not face God’s wrath on the face of the Earth. For an almost not measurable part of eternity, we are here, where Satan has been made “the king of kings” by the free will of man.

      Just one of the examples:

      There were more than 10.000 Christians and Catholics living in the city of Nagazaki when the USA dropped the nuclear bomb on them. Surely Satan was behind this act of wicked men, but an act very much permitted to take place, by a loving God, who took his witnesses out of the blaze and home to the eternal Kingdom of Heaven.

  31. Ivar

    You said:
    “If the Great Tribulation is for Jews and Jerusalem, then the Jewish people surely have been replaced, by those who will escape. And not only escape. They are invited to a gala of a party, while the Jews are suffering.”

    My reply:
    If the Tribulation is not for Jews, who are Daniel’s people, and what is his Holy city?

    Don’t you realise that it is you who is teaching replacement theology, when you deny the fact that the prophecy is for Israel.

    The statement “then all Israel shall be saved” doesn’t mean all those Jews who enter the Tribulation. It means all who are left at the end of it. And that, sadly, will only be a remnant (very few).

    The book of Daniel is very much for today. If preachers, including yourself would teach it properly, I think you would see a lot of Jews saved.

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      Don’t you realise that it is you who is teaching replacement theology, when you deny the fact that the prophecy is for Israel.

      My comment:

      I have never denied that this prophecy is for Israel. I just resist the foolish theology of the grand gala party in Heaven for all who shall not try to identify the anti-Christ, and “do not need to worry” about the fact that they already have stated to worship the beast. This worship is obviously already on in Israel. But the Pope has still not got his hand on the ultimate excecutive powers, of his desire.

      Men like Benjamin Netanyahu, Naftali Bennet and Avigdor Lieberman still stand in the gap for mankind. They limits the powers of the man of lawlessness, and restrain his Earthly Kingdom from completely taking over the show in Jerusalem too.

      1. Ivar,

        Oh, so you didn’t just say:“If the Great Tribulation is for Jews and Jerusalem, then the Jewish people surely have been replaced, by those who will escape.”

        You said: “I have never denied that this prophecy is for Israel.
        Well if you agree it is for Israel, why do you insist on sliding the Body of Christ in there. If God intended us to be there too, you would expect Gabriel to say something about us. But there’s not even a wink in this direction!

        And by-the-way your dislike of any notion that the Jewish people have been replaced by those who will escape, is a little strange if we consider the fact that this is exactly what happens when one of their branches is broken off, and one of us grafted in. Whether it is the Tribulation or Hell, that grafted branch escapes in place of the original.

      2. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        Well if you agree it is for Israel, why do you insist on sliding the Body of Christ in there.

        My reply:

        It was never God of the Bible’s intention that there should be any difference between Israel and the Church. On the day of Pentecost there were Jews from all over the World, and proselytes to Judaism, gathered in Jerusalem. 3.000 of them was saved in one day.

        The first group of the believers in the message of the resurrected Messiah, were all Jews. For the next 250 years, there was never a question of banning Judaism with the Messiah as the fulfillment of the Law. This banishment of Judaism is something that Rome enforced on the believers. But many resisted this falsehood, to the point of untimely martyrdom.

  32. Ivar,

    We are obviously online at the same time here, so I am racing to reply to you, but falling behind on some points you are making.

    The main issue here, has to be Daniel’s prophecy. If you can explain how Daniel’s people include the Body of Christ (Christians), I would be interested to read it.

    1. Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in the Messiah.

      You asked:

      The main issue here, has to be Daniel’s prophecy. If you can explain how Daniel’s people include the Body of Christ (Christians), I would be interested to read it.

      My reply:

      This has been one of my main objects on New That Matters for the last six years:

      1. We who have been grafted.
      2. We who have enlarged the Israel of God.
      3. We who are co-hairs to the promises given to the Jews.

      Romans 15:8-9:
      For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews[b] on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

      ‘Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
      I will sing the praises of your name.’

      (end of scripture)

      if we are co-hairs and grafted, we will not be separated when Israel is in trouble. Like in the Holocaust. 1.500 priest who resisted the anti-Christ in Berlin were executed. On my native island, all males of one of the largest villages, were sent to one the conzentration camps in Germany. Many of them devoted Christian men. Only a handful returned to Norway.

      1. Yes, but Daniel’s prophecy is clear about God’s purpose. And that purpose can’t include believers in Christ, whether they are Jew or Gentile. So if you are seeing replacement theology in my interpretation, it’s because you fail to understand what being grafted in means for Gentile believer.

      2. Dear Phil Mayo.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        I love this topic.

        You wrote:

        So if you are seeing replacement theology in my interpretation, it’s because you fail to understand what being grafted in means for Gentile believer.

        My reply:

        To be grafted into what?

        Into the Jewish faith in God of Israel. Jesus the Messiah can never be anything but the grafter of us, the gentiles, into this faith. He neither replaced the Law, nor does he introduce a new faith. He do not change the set time and dates, gives us a new way to understand a “day”, new set of laws, new festivals, etc.

  33. Ivar,

    You need to make a distinction between Jews of faith (that is those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah), and those who don’t.
    The Jews of faith will not be going through the Tribulation even if Gentiles hadn’t been grafted in place of rebellious Jews.
    It’s those who are in rebellion against God who enter the Tribulation, whether Jew or Gentile.

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      You need to make a distinction between Jews of faith (that is those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah), and those who don’t.

      My reply:

      Yes, I do. That is why I say that the concerned prophecy of Daniel is for Israel. But for the Messianic Jews, those who believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah, there is no way to escape being Jewish. They are true witnesses inside Israel, and fits perfect to the witnesses of Chapter 11 in the Book of Revelation. No need to take them away, and replace them with new witnesses from heaven.

      1. That is not supported by Daniel’s prophecy.

        “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the TRANSGRESSION, and to make an end of SINS, and to make RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in everlasting RIGHTEOUSNESS, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy”.

        Those purposes are achieved through the blood of Christ for every believer, whether Jew or Gentile.

      2. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Agreed. Daniel 9:23-25 is about the coming of Jesus the Messiah to fulfill this Prophecy. And it is not only fulfilled for both Jew or gentile believers. It was fulfilled for all. Past, present and future. And absolute not to make the Messianic Jews to be anything but Jewish. To see that their Jewish faith of Judaism is completed by the Messiah.

      3. Ivar,
        “They are true witnesses inside Israel, and fits perfect to the witnesses of Chapter 11 in the Book of Revelation. No need to take them away, and replace them with new witnesses from heaven.”
        Are you a Bible believer? The Bible clearly says God will send down TWO witnesses from heaven to call the world to repentance in Revelation 11. How are you going to turn them into yourselves –– the so called Messianic Jews who contradict and twist the Bible for their agenda.
        Do not mistake me. I love Israel and all the Jewish people. I pray for Israel and Jerusalem every day. I love Israel more than I love my own country, more than I love my own race.

      4. Dear Rome Is Whore

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Lets see what the scripture says:

        Revelation 11:3-4
        And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.’ They are ‘the two olive trees’ and the two lampstands, and ‘they stand before the Lord of the earth.’

        (end of scripture)

        1. There is not a single line that they are “sent down from Heaven”, to replace the present witnesses. This is the assumptions of men, who add to scripture.
        2. They have powers from Heavens, to shut up the heavens, so it will not rain.
        3. They will be raptured.

        We need to use the Scripture correctly.

        Thanks for loving Israel, and support her in her time of need. Please buy Israeli products, and travel to Israel to support her. And do not forget to help and bless our brothers, the Messianic Jews.

      5. “There is not a single line that they are “sent down from Heaven”
        The Scriptures clearly say one of the TWO WITNESSES is Elijah:
        “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” Malachi 4:5
        What the 2 witnesses do are exactly what Moses and Elijah did! Since Elijah was taken up into heaven now he must come back from heaven!
        John the Baptist served the role of Elijah before the Lord’s Day – that Firstfruit, the Resurrection Day, and he was born of woman, not from heaven, neither did he perform any miracles. Jesus was there when he was beheaded, and He did not resurrect him.

      6. Dear Rome is Whore.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        The Scriptures clearly say one of the TWO WITNESSES is Elijah: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.” Malachi 4:5

        My reply:

        This prophecy by Malachi were fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptist. We have Jesus the Messiah’s own words for this.

        You are again adding to scripture, and presume that Elijah will come back from Heaven in our days, just suddenly re-appear in Jerusalem.

        When Jesus walked on Earth this was the belief of many Jews. They said that the Son of Man would be Elijah.

        It is strange that John the Baptist was not raptured, but beheaded. Since this kind of logic will be applied by all who make the Bible into a book they can use to make up any kinds of theological conclusions.

        Like: Since Elijah was raptured in the Book of Kings, He will surely be the one who will return, and will be raptured in Revelation chapter 11.

      7. “This prophecy by Malachi were fulfilled in the coming of John the Baptist.”
        “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. Malachi 4:5
        Was Jesus’ death and resurrection the great and awesome day of the LORD? or was His birth the great and awesome day of the LORD?
        What does the Bible say about the great and awesome day of the LORD! The great and awesome day of the LORD is the DAY when the LORD strikes the land with a decree of utter destruction!
        “And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.” Malachi 4:6
        Did Jesus struck the land with utter destruction at His first advent?

        And you called me adding to the Lord’s Word? See how you proclaim your lies that Jesus rose on the 4th day by making Him died on Thursday?
        See how you deny the Rapture? There is no rapture for you 😀

      8. Dear Rome Is Whore.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        See how you deny the Rapture? There is no rapture for you.

        My reply:

        Funny, since I have never denied that there will be a rapture. I have just resisted all the false doctrines made by the Jesuit’s, also the pre-trib doctrine. The idea that we we will not be able to discern who the antichrist is before we are on our way to the “wedding party in heaven”. I have presented both logical and Biblical proof that the rapture will take place inside the Great Tribulation.

      9. Rome Is Whore

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. Malachi 4:5

        My reply:

        When was (is) this day?

        The day God punished his own begotten Son at Calvary Hill, that was the great (all sins forgiven) and awesome (Judgment day) day of the Lord. There will never be anything like this ever again. Before that day, John the Baptist appeared in the spirit of Elijah. Preparing the way for the Lord. Today, there are lots of people, who prepare the way for the second coming of the Lord. No need for Elijah to return from Heaven. The gospel is already being preached, and Jesus is portrayed as crucified for our sins, and resurrected for our justification.

        Matthew 11:13-15

        For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

      10. “But for the Messianic Jews, those who believe that Jesus (Yeshua) is the Messiah, there is no way to escape being Jewish.”
        “Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.” –Peter, a Jewish Christian, 1 Peter 4:16
        The Bible calls the believing Jews Christians. What does the term ‘Messianic Jews’ tell us? Are they different from Christians? Are there Messianic Chinese? or are there any Messianic Romans? lol

      11. Dear Rome Is Whore

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You asked:

        What does the term ‘Messianic Jews’ tell us? Are they different from Christians?

        My reply.

        Surely not. The Christians are not supposed to be different from the Messianic Jews. The first of them appeared on the Jewish Festival of Pentecost, 2.000 years ago.

        We should all praise God of Israel. All who have been grated into the true faith in God of Abraham, Isac and Jacob. God of the Hebrews. Grafted by Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah.

  34. First let me say, I did not read every comment, so this may have been addressed. I have always been taught pre trib, I am not completely opposed to mid trib… because I do not believe Christians will have to endure the vile/bowl judgements God’s wrath. You mentioned in a previous comment that you don’t believe that the saints will be taken away because who will be left to witness to those left behind. I ask you, why do you think us believers will face God’s wrath, second how do you accou t for the 144,000? I lean toward pre trib because we Christians have suffered enough, why make 7us suffer more? To think that way makes me think that you believe God is giving us one last test…. like the final exam of all final exams, but also said that once saved always saved. So if we’re saved why put us thru all that? Let me back up… because we have believed we will be spared from the tribulation and it is the 144,000 jews that will be marked on their foreheads anf they will be the witnesses to nonbelievers. They will not be taken in the rapture because until God removes their blinders they will not believe Jesus to be the Messiah. Cant wait to hear your thoughts.

    1. Dear Teresa

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Thanks for your comments, and for your challenge:

      Revelation 7:1-5
       After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.  Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: ‘Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.’  Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

      (end of Scripture)

      ….until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.

      The servants of God is active inside the Great Tribulation. From the 12 tribes of Israel. They did never stop being servants of God. Their calling were never suspended, and God of the Bible’s love for them is eternal.

      It is Jesus the Messiah who has called them home to Israel, according to the Prophetic Word and eternal promises given long time before the Messiah appeared in flesh. The love of the Messiah towards the Jewish people are not based on their acceptance of Him as the Messiah. Yes, inside the Great Tribulation they have no other places to turn, than to call the Messiah to come from Heaven to rescue them.

      Today, you will be surprised by the interest in Yeshua, inside the state of Israel. Most ordinary Israelis knows they are trapped, and have no one to turn to besides the Messiah. But all who live in idolatry, like the lovers of money and power inside the Jewish state, is not much different from like minded who live outside the borders of Zion.

      There have always been a remnant of Jews, who obey the commands of God. Like living out the Messianic life, without fully knowing who the Messiah is. Living in a small Kibutz, blessing their enemies, and singing the Sabbath song, asking the “King of Kings” for blessings and peace. As we move ahead into the Great Tribulation, I am positive they will be saved by Yeshua the Messiah.

      1. Ivar,

        I think you are playing with the meaning of “servants of God” to suit your argument. Nebuchadnezzar was called a servant of God while he was still a pagan and in rebellion against the God of Israel. He was called servant because he served God’s purpose, but he wasn’t his servant in the way that Daniel, Ezekiel etc, were.

        Jesus has called the Jews home, yes! But they are mostly unbelievers who will be dealt with in accordance with the Daniel 9 prophecy. There is no dual covenant! A Jew must accept Jesus Christ as Messiah in order to be the servant of God you are talking about.

  35. Ivar,

    If Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians are one of the two witnesses, and whoever else you think is the second (I think you once said they were Zionists). Those two (allegorical) witnesses being dead at the time of ‘your rapture’. Who do you say are the living people that are raptured with them?

    1 Thes 4:16-17 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: “”Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds””, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

    Revelation 11:11-12 “And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

    You see, according to 1 Thes 4:16-17 there are the dead in Christ and the living in Christ that are raptured. If as you say, one of the two witnesses are all those in Christ (Jews and Gentile), and the other witness is Zionists, it leaves no living body of Christ to be raptured. And since when has being a Zionist meant a person is in Christ?

    1. Dear Phil.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      I have never said that Zionists will be raptured. There are many types of Zionists, most of them secular or semi-religious.

      What I have said is that the Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria are a true witness of the faithfulness of God of Israel. The large majority of them are waiting for the Messiah. In increasing numbers, they do not rejected the idea that Yeshua can be the promised Messiah. It is very encouraging indeed. I have more in common with them, any day, than lukewarm followers of “Christ”, that blindly are being joked with the enemies of Israel.

      1. Ivar,

        Okay, but that still doesn’t explain who you believe the ‘living’ body of Christ is if the other one of those witnesses is all those who have died in Christ, having been martyred by the anti-Christ in accordance with Revelation 11.

        You said: “What I have said is that the Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria are a true witness of the faithfulness of God of Israel.”

        I agree that they are ‘evidence’ of the faithfulness of the God of Israel. But they are not witnesses in the sense of Revelation 11. They don’t perform signs and wanders, or preach the gospel.

        Please explain.

      2. Dear Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Take a fresh look at Revelation chapter 11. There are two witnesses, to olive threes, two lamp stands, who represent God on the face of the Earth.

        If you do not feel that the Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria are a witness of the faithfulness of God of Israel, than what are they?

        Many “Christians” fail to see that the existence of Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy. Jesus the Messiah has not gathered the Jewish people back home to Israel to burn them. But: Among the Jews, there are of those who died in various rebellions.

        Suppose the full numbers of gentiles had come into the Kingdom today. Than there were -0- more gentiles to be saved. Than: Who will be saved next?

        My point is that inside the Great Tribulation, we have passed this point of -0- more gentiles to be saved. The salvation of the the Jewish people (Israel) is already an ongoing event. As we approach Chapter 11 of the Book of Revelation the true Christians, and saved Jews, will stand united against the antichrists in Jerusalem. The true witnesses will stand together, against the apostate flock of false Brethren, who worship the beast.

        Do you finally get me?

  36. Ivar, you said;
    “As we approach Chapter 11 of the Book of Revelation the true Christians, and saved Jews, will stand united against the antichrists in Jerusalem. The true witnesses will stand together, against the apostate flock of false Brethren, who worship the beast.”

    I think you are saying that Messianic Jews and True Christians are the two witnesses of Revelation 11. So I will repeat my question:

    When the two witnesses are raised from the dead and raptured, who are the people that are alive in Christ that are raptured with them?

    Your position on the rapture stands or falls on this question.

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      When the two witnesses are raised from the dead and raptured, who are the people that are alive in Christ that are raptured with them?

      My reply:

      The two witnesses are to be understood in plural. Not as two persons.

      How many Christians who have fallen into apostasy, and made them selves an enemy of Israel, is an open question. Many will eventually fall away and worship the beast (The Pope). The falling away are already reaching catastrophic levels.

      1. Hi Ivar, and blessings to you too brother.

        You said the two witnesses are to be understood in plural.

        I understand you to mean they represent two groups of people. Not two individuals. Which is exactly what I said in my last post when I wrote: “I think you are saying that Messianic Jews and True Christians are the two witnesses of Revelation 11.”

        But according to you, they are all killed by the anti-Christ, and then resurrected and raptured. That would have to mean they are the dead in Christ.
        “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first”. 1 Thes 4:16

        “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” 1 Thes 4:17

        So if all the Messianic Jews and Christians, whom you say are the two witnesses, have been killed then raptured, who are those people Paul is referring to as “we which are alive and remain”?

  37. Hi Ivar,
    Rome is Whore,
    Phil MAyo
    The great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD HAPPENED ON HIS SECOND ADVENT IN 70A.D.
    iT TAKES FAITH TO BELIEVE THIS.
    UNBELIEF CAUSES BLINDNESS AND 99% OF THE CHIRCH DOES NOT BELIEVE THIS. tHEY REFUSE TO BECAUSE IT DIDNT HAPPEN THE WAY THEY THOUGHT IT SHOULD. unbelief causes blindness. Just as most Jews did not and do not believe that Jesus came the first time because they were blind to who messiah was. Because he did not come on the scene with power and authority and rule, they did not believe he was who he said he was. They were blind and the church is blind to the reality of his second advent already happening because it didnt happen the way they thought it would. the church is blind also. His second advent already happened. I believe it
    His kingdom is here on earth and he rules in it and his kingdom is in heaven also, Just the way the he and the father wanted. It takes faith to believe it and spiritual eyes to see it.

    1. It takes faith to believe it ???

      I think it more likely takes a serious lack of Bible study.

      Matt 24:27 “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

      1. Phil mayo
        Peace.
        Who is the audience listening to these words/
        It is in language that they understood. Lightning is understood by them to mean judgement. go back to the old testament and look at the times when judgement on a nation or a people is described as flashes of lightening, pearls of thunder, the earth shaking.They knew what he was describing. Its not what you think. When judgement came on Egypt it was described as lightening and thunder but the judgement literally came through or by the Assyrians. Jesus was not speaking in parables here. he was speaking in language they understood

    2. Dear Todd

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      The great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD HAPPENED ON HIS SECOND ADVENT IN 70 A.D.

      My reply:

      You just started a new religion.

  38. I expected you guys to reply the way you did. Unbelief causes blindness. My belief comes with exceedingly much study Phil Mayo.
    The reason the church has misunderstood scripture is because it has thrown out the most important element of Hermeneutics; “audience relevance”.
    Take Matt 16:27 as an illustration
    For the Son of man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his father, and then he will repay(judge)each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom
    Basic hermeneutics of this passage asks these question about these two verses.
    1. Who is he talking to?
    The answer is in vs. 24.Then Jesus told his disciples
    2. Who’s coming
    The Son of Man with his angels
    3. Why is he coming?
    To repay or judge each person according to what he has done.
    This is clearly not refering to the transfiguration. which happened six days later as some theologians have stated in their commentaries.
    He said some standing there would not taste death until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom
    4. Who was standing there?
    His disciples.
    There are three questions that can be raised from this passage
    1 If he did not come as he said then there has to be some of those standing there who are somewhere on this earth today 2000 years old.
    2. He did not come and therefore lied to them.
    3. He came as he said
    Which is easier to believe?
    I dare say I have asked some people this same question and they actually answered it with #1. Bizarre.
    He either came and some of those standing there saw it or he did not come and therfore was a liar like satan.
    Which do you think ?

    1. Dear Todd.

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      I expected you guys to reply the way you did. Unbelief causes blindness. My belief comes with exceedingly much study Phil Mayo. The reason the church has misunderstood scripture is because it has thrown out the most important element of Hermeneutics; “audience relevance”.

      My comment:

      God is surely exclusive, but: Let us at least know, who is with you in this new religion. Kindly give us the name of your Bible teacher.

      1. Ivar
        Peace to you
        My Bible teacher is the holy spirit. the one who wrote it
        and i suppose there could be others but no one who I know does
        Just because I believe what Jesus said he was going to do, does that make me a heretic. Certainly you read the rest of the reply. In the verses I used to illustrate my point, Was Jesus refering to the Son of man as being himself or someone else.
        If he’s referring to someone else who is it?
        I can only believe that the Son of man came with his angels to repay every man for what he had done and some standing there saw his comming. Does believing that create some kind of new religion. If Yeshua was only giving them lip service, then everything he said cannot be trusted and when he says truly or surely don’t believe it.
        I believe what he said. I believe the son of man came with his angels to repay every man for what he had done and it happened in the lifetime of some of those standing there
        I didnt see it, but I believe it. I wish you could

      2. Dear Todd.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        You wrote:

        The great and dreadful DAY OF THE LORD HAPPENED ON HIS SECOND ADVENT IN 70.A.D.

        My comment:

        Seriously, Todd.

        If this day was in 70.A.D, what kind of “deliverance” took place on Mount Zion, when Emperor Titus massacred a million Jews?

        Joel: 2:31-32.

        The sun will be turned to darkness
        and the moon to blood
        before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
        And everyone who calls
        on the name of the Lord will be saved;
        for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
        there will be deliverance,

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      I will make an exception, permitting your link.

      I am aware of Preterism. But I never knew that there are souls believing that the book of Revelation started already in 70.A.D. That is an amazing view, and truly Satanic. Since God of the Bible was never going to re-gather the Jews, and surely not just before the second coming of the Messiah.

      I know Adolf Hitler held a similar view. The Jews were a lower being than rats. The scum of the Earth, eternally punished from 70 A.D onwards, for being “Christ-killers”.

    2. Phil Mayo,
      You obviously read the writings of men and therefore your understanding is based on what they say. Blind leading blind.
      History repeats itself.
      The israelites where blind because they listened to their teachers
      and Yeshua time after time showed them how they did not know scripture.

      1. “…Yeshua time after time showed them how they did not know scripture…”

        And you do? If the day of the Lord occurred in 70 A.D., what of all the prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled? You make G-d out to be a liar. “…unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar…” (Romans 3:3-4)

      2. Hi Todd,
        Are your writings not also “the writings of men”?
        If you are claiming you have come to those Preterist conclusions without being influenced by other Preterists, I will accept your claim because I have no evidence it’s a lie. But it doesn’t mean you got it from the Holy Spirit. You need to test it. That’s why I gave you that link.

  39. Hi Ivarr
    Peace and love in Jesus
    You did not answer my questions but that’s ok.
    If you answer it no I do not believe the son ofman came with his angels to repay every man for what they had done in the lifetime of some of those standing there. Then that would mean that some of those standing there are still alive because Yeshua said he was coming in their life time. Because he told them that some of them standing there would not die before they saw him coming in his kingdom.
    If your answer is no I don’t believe he came in their lifetime then Yeshua was lying to them and that makes him out to be a liar. If you say yes then that throws all your belief about end times prophecy in the garbage.
    Let’s look at the Joel prophecy you cited.
    This was a prophecy in Joel’s future.
    You cited Joel 2 :31& 32
    But I want to look at it where it starts in verse 28.
    This so a
    Prophecy of Joel regarding his future and Israel of that
    Times future. 28 -32 all go together as does chapter 3
    28-32 read this way
    And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh, your sons and your daughters shall prophecy your old men will dream dreams and your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants in those days will I pour out my
    Spirit.
    Now go to Acts chapter 2:14-21
    This is Peter’s sermon at Pentecost
    He cites Joel’s prophecy 2:28-31.
    He starts offf by saying this.
    Beginning with Verse 14. But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;

    1. Sorry Ivar I hit the post button before I was finished.
      the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day. And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
      Peter is citing Joel’s futuristic prophecy as being fulfilled at that time.
      Go back to Joel’s prophecy in chapter 3 verse 1
      Then Joel says, “For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land,
      In those days. What days. The days when Peter cited the prophecy. In Peters life time Joel’s prophecy was fulfilled.
      I believe this. I wish you could

      1. Todd, Peter was quoting Joel but he understood that Joel was speaking not only of the Pentecost outpouring of the Holy Spirit but the Day of Judgment as well. In verse 31 Peter speaks of David looking into the Messianic Kingdom that lay in the future, not only for David but for Peter and his contemporaries as well. Peter was very aware of the spans of time that might be required to accomplish the total rescue plan that G-d was enacting through His Son and speaks to that issue in 2 Peter 3. You do not speak plainly so it is difficult to determine what your beliefs are but, from what I have seen, they are likely in error.

      2. Dear job3627

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        It is interesting that Hizb’Allah and the Pre-trib dispensationalist are in agreement. The ultimate conclusion of their doctrines are: “Its good that the Jews have been gathered Home, to be “fried”. They will suffer, while we will celebrate”.

        Any Jew fried by “god” is sent to Hell. That is the core doctrine of Islam.

        We who do not believe this, know that God of Israel and His Messiah will beat any enemy that comes against Jerusalem black and blue.

        The Lord will reign from Zion, and completely destroy the enemies of the state of Israel. Just like he has done in 1948, 1952, 1967 and 1973. Anybody, who wants another try?

        Please chose you allies carefully. If you do not. Spend some time in cities like Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, Mogadishu or Sana.

        Your local neighbourhood can also become like this.

      3. Dear Todd.

        Shalom, and love and Jesus.

        What you wrote is the same ideology as the Nazis had, regarding the Jewish people. Self betrayal in the name of “Jesus” will not save any one. Nor writing long messages, creating a smoke screen around the gross error.

        You have been a reader of this blog for years, but seems to have learned nothing. Sitting home, not going to Church, not being under any kind of mentor ship is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

        Be aware that religious antisemitism and Jew-hate will not be permitted on this site.

        Repent, or perish.

    2. Todd, the prophecy that the Jesus gave in Matthew 16:28 was a reflection of His observation that His Kingdom was “not of this world”—that it was a spiritual (not physical) kingdom (at that time). And indeed, the Resurrection was all the proof that His followers needed to determine that “the Son of Man” (a designation that Jesus typically used for Himself, during His first advent) had indeed come into His Kingdom. The former part of the prophecy (verse 27) will come to fruition when He comes to judge the earth at the end of the Tribulation.

      1. job3627
        Then how do you get past that some of you standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of man(Jesus) coming with his angels to repay(judge) every man for what he has done. Again’ Hermeneutics. Who is he talking to? His disciples. Some of them would not die before they saw this prophecy happenen. Their is nothing to read into this.Their is no imagery in this passage to try and figure out I dont see anything to reflect about. The three preceding veses have to do with lordship,surrendering commitment. he’s telling them to surrender to him because the son of man is coming with his angels to repay for what men have done and some standing their would see it.

      2. I agree that his kingdom is spiritual and I believe it always will be that way and we are the literal fulfilment of his kingdom on earth. Our spiritual life in Christ reflects or is to reflect to the world that we are different. i believe this is the way it will be.

  40. Ivar,

    You said: “It is interesting that Hizb’Allah and the Pre-trib dispensationalist are in agreement.”

    My reply: If you can’t answer my last question regarding who Paul was referring to when he said “we that are alive in Christ”, you have no right making that statement.

    Your mid-trib beliefs are without scriptural foundation. So your nasty snipes at your pre-trib brethren (who for the most part are highly supportive of Israel) are unjust.

    1. Dear Phil Mayo

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      I agree that I have made a hot debate on this topic. Many warm Christians are pre-trib preachers. But I am sure you are doing some soul searching after this last round of debate.

      For any Jew, the pre-trib doctrine appears to be science fiction. Yet another example of Christians building their proclaimed exit from this World on an illusion.

      Up till today, 99,999 per cent of all Christians have face the grave as their exit point, and than been resurrected by Jesus the Messiah. If they have not done the will of the Father, they have faced judgment. If they have been martyred for their faith, they have surely been promoted to eternity inside the Kingdom of Heaven.

      Even many secular Jews, are aware of their God, who have gathered them home to Israel. A people who saw 50 per cent of them being fried in the Holocaust, just days before the rebirth of Zion.

      In the Holocaust the The Great tribulation seems to have been given its true meaning. It was a consequence of betrayal. Not only did claimed to be “Christians” betray Jews. The Jews were also betrayed by their won leaders, who failed to take them home to Zion, but rather convinced them to stay put in Germany and Poland.

      If your city were emptied by half of its population, it would be felt like the rapture had taken place. But in this case, you had to search for your relatives outside the gates of post-war conzentration camps, and among the bones outside the gas chambers.

      1. I prefer to do Bible searching on the subject. It’s the only way of getting to the truth.

        Ivar, you seem to be basing your beliefs far more on emotion than on scripture. You need to understand that as much as God loves Jews, he has in the past, and will again in the future, send terrible judgement on them. You or me being around at the time won’t change that.

        One day they are going to see the disappearance of many people, followed by the appearance of the two (individuals) witnesses. Those who have been influenced by your ideas may be led to believe these two must be the Antichrist and the False Prophet. That could be why they will celebrate their deaths.

        So if you can’t defend your belief from scripture, you shouldn’t spread it around.

      2. Phil Mayo

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Being accused on not using scriptures, is not what I expected after 152 comments on my article. If you ever read the article, you would see use of scripture. And they are to be understood, without adding anything. Nowhere it has been written that the two witnesses of Chapter 11 in the book of Revelation, are Elijah and Moses. That Is something you presume, because your Bible teachers has told you, it must be so.

        The two witnesses are also two olive trees and two lamp stands. They are two, and they are to be understood in the plural sense of this word. One example: Israel is a plural witness of God’s faithfulness in our generation. 1948 is one of the best proof there is about a living God.

        That Jesus the Messiah have seen pagans both blessing and cursing the Jewish people, is as old as their election as God’s chosen people. From the Book of Easter, up to the shabby treatment the state of Israel has got in many Churches. It is fully understood why many Jews, doubt that quit a few people who claim to represent the Messiah can be his true followers. We all know it is like this. Just read Matthew 7: 21-23 all over again.

        Feelings aside. Believe in the Word of God as it is written.

  41. Ivar
    Peace and love in Jesus
    I attend a baptist church every Sunday
    My wife and I host a small group in our home one evening a wee. I work 5 days a week. I am a deacon in my church appointed by the staff and voted by the congregation. I don’t know where you get Jew hate from anything I said, my understanding of the word comes from reading mad meditating on it. I have no idea what naziism taught or believed. Just because I believe
    That the son of man came already and just because I believe that Joel’s prophecy happened in Peters lifetime that makes me a Jew hater. I’m sorry but I don’t get that, You have always accused me of that and that is the furthest from the truth. You don’t know me Ivar

    1. Dear Todd

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      Now, I am really stunned. Please give me the email to your pastor. I need to urge him to council you. Your views prove that the apostasy inside even Baptist Churches have reached catastrophic levels.

  42. Dear Ivar–you wrote to me:

    “…It is interesting that Hizb’Allah and the Pre-trib dispensationalists are in agreement. The ultimate conclusion of their doctrines are: “Its good that the Jews have been gathered Home, to be “fried”. They will suffer, while we will celebrate…”

    **************************************************************************************
    No, no and no. It is cruel to compare your brothers and sisters in Christ to those who hate the Jews. Pre-Trib dispensationalist Christians are some of the greatest defenders of Israel–and are recognized as such by many Israelis. You are very wrong.

    *************************************************************************************
    Any Jew fried by “god” is sent to Hell. That is the core doctrine of Islam.
    *************************************************************************************
    One of your problems is that you are apparently something of a racist. There is no spiritual superiority in an unbelieving Jew–what makes you think there is? Yes, the Jews were chosen by G-d to bear the oracles of G-d, but an unbelieving Jew has no special position before G-d when they reject His One and Only Son, Jesus. In the words of the Holy Spirit-inspired Apostle Paul, in speaking to the Jewish members of the church at Rome, “The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value ONLY if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, YOU ARE NO BETTER OFF THAN AN UNCIRCUMCISED GENTILE. And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people? In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.”

    “For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. NO, A TRUE JEW IS ONE WHOSE HEART IS RIGHT WITH GOD. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; RATHER, IT IS A CHANGE OF HEART PRODUCED BY GOD’S SPIRIT. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise[a] from God, not from people.” (emphasis mine)

    *****************************************************************************************
    “We who do not believe this, know that God of Israel and His Messiah will beat any enemy that comes against Jerusalem black and blue…”
    ****************************************************************************************
    When they finally accept Yeshua as their Messiah, they will be protected and taken to a place of safety. This WILL happen. G-d’s holy word says so in Revelation 12 where we see true Israel in all her splendor.
    ****************************************************************************************
    “The Lord will reign from Zion, and completely destroy the enemies of the state of Israel. Just like he has done in 1948, 1952, 1967 and 1973. ”
    **********************************************************************************
    Yes–He WILL!
    ***********************************************************************************
    “…Please chose you allies carefully. If you do not. Spend some time in cities like Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, Mogadishu or Sana…”
    **********************************************************************************
    That is the most hate-filled thing that has ever been said to me or about me by a supposed follower of Messiah Yeshua. To compare me or any other believer who believes in the Pre-Trib Rapture to the enemies of Israel is unconscionable and it makes me very sad to read these lines. Your vicious ideology has blinded you to the truth and it is just as bad as that of those in Damascus, Baghdad, Cairo, Mogadishu or Sana. May G-d forgive you for the hate you are spewing against His children in Messiah.

    1. Dear job3627

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      That is the most hate-filled thing that has ever been said to me or about me by a supposed follower of Messiah Yeshua.

      My comment:

      Hey, hey, hey!. I never desired to send you to any of these cities. I just warned you not to tell the Jewish people you have a similar end time view as radical Islam. The Islamic warriors believe that there are horrible times ahead for the state of Israel. But the same God who defended her in 1948, 1952, 1967, 1973, is with Israel today. And will again beat them black and blue.

      The Jewish people are going to face their Messiah, the rock of Israel. He is returning to save all who are waiting for him. Many Jews do eagerly awaits their Messiah. As we approach the endgame, more and more Jews will accept Yeshua the Messiah.

      1. Dear all readers.

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        I want to talk all of you for this interesting debate related to the timing of the Great Tribulation.

        I want to underline that many warm and committed Christians are preaching a different timing of this event, than those in my camp. But I will do nothing to stop them. They will have the pulpit wherever I am in charge. But I will put in my viewpoints too, so there is a balance for the hearer.

        The rapture will eventually take place when it takes place. Hereby, this round of debate is closed.

      2. Dear Ivar, you said:
        “…Hey, hey, hey!. I never sent you to any of these cities. I just warned you not to tell the Jewish people you have a similar end time view as radical Islam…”
        *************************************************************************
        My view is NOT at all similar to that of radical Islam! They hate and curse the Jewish people. I, like the Apostle Paul, love them and long for them to embrace their (and our) Messiah. The prophet Daniel prophesied the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble in the End of Days”. No true believer in Messiah would want anything for the Jewish people except blessing–especially the most supreme blessing of knowing their Messiah and finally being granted the Kingdom that they have longed for over the centuries. The Satanically-inspired radical Islam longs for the destruction of the Jewish people. To compare anything that I have said to their hate-filled ideology is, in itself, hateful. It saddens me to read much of what you have written in this thread.
        ************************************************************************
        “…They believe that there are horrible times ahead for the state of Israel…”

        ***********************************************************************
        So did the prophet, Daniel when he looked ahead to the End of Days. Are you going to accuse him of hating the nation of Israel?
        ***************************************************************************
        “…But the same God that defended her in 1948, 1952, 1967, 1973, is with Israel today…”
        *************************************************************************
        Yes!
        **************************************************************************
        “…The Jewish people are going to face their Messiah, who is returning to save all who are waiting for him. Many Jews do eagerly awaits their Messiah. As we approach the endgame, more and more Jews will accept Yeshua the Messiah…”
        ****************************************************************************
        That is my prayer as well.

        ***************************************************************************
        “…I do not understand why you feel this so hurtful…”
        **************************************************************************
        Do you not? Perhaps it is a miscommunication then.

      3. Dear job3627

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Please accept my apology for any words of unkindness. Do not consider my viewpoints at all. But believe in the Bible. The Word of God is infallible, and the highest authority in all matters of faith.

        Lets now close this debate.

  43. Todd, you said: “…Then how do you get past that some of you standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of man(Jesus) coming with his angels to repay(judge) every man for what he has done?…”

    First of all, that is not what was actually said by Him. What He ACTUALLY said (in verses 26-28) was: “…And how do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul in the process? Is anything worth more than your soul? 27 For I, the Son of Man, will come in the glory of my Father with his angels and will judge all people according to their deeds. 28 And I assure you that some of you standing here right now will not die before you see me, the Son of Man, coming in my Kingdom…”

    It is obvious that verse 27 is a follow-on from the thought expressed in verse 26. It was speaking of judgment on the wicked and unbelieving sinners–NOT the Kingdom–which is reserved for the believers who have been declared righteous by the Blood of the Lamb (and this is the subject of verse 28). You must make an attempt to study the Scriptures VERY carefully, Todd. And ask G-d to help you to understand them by the power of His Holy Spirit. 🙂

  44. Ivar, you said: “Nowhere it has been written that the two witnesses of Chapter 11 in the book of Revelation, are Elijah and Moses. That Is something you presume, because your Bible teachers has told you, it must be so.”

    My reply: That in actual fact is something you presume to be my presumption. And you presume wrongly, because my presumption is more inclined towards Enoch and Elijah. I presume this because God declares that all men will die (with the exception of those raptured. Pre-Trib of course). Neither Enoch nor Elijah died, so I presume they must do so as the two witnesses.

    But I presume you will make the presumption that this too is only something I presume. And on that we can agree 🙂

  45. Dear Ivar, you said:

    “Dear job3627–Shalom, and love in Jesus.

    Please accept my apology for any words of unkindness… ”
    *************************************************************************************
    Of course, I accept your apology–thank you for offering it. 🙂
    *************************************************************************************
    “…Do not consider my viewpoints at all. But believe in the Bible. The Word of God is infallible, and the highest authority in all matters of faith. Lets now close this debate.”
    **************************************************************************************
    Amen and Amen. 🙂

  46. Can you explain this?

    Please observe:

    Luke 17:36-37

    36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]
    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

    Rightly divided with this (2 Tim. 2:15):

    Revelation 19:21

    And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    Please note that the context of the Rev. verse I posted is indeed when the Lord returns; when heaven is opened and the son of man is revealed.

    So please explain, sincerely,

    Jonathan

    P.S. My weblog is meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com
    P.P.S. Let this just be fuel to the fire to those that agree. So, in other words, you don’t need to explain it to me. But for those that disagree please email me with an explanation.
    P.P.P.S. And to all:

    I sincerely ask you all to enjoy my weblog.

    1. Dear blazyjon

      Shalom, and love in Jesus.

      You wrote:

      Luke 17:34-37
       I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding corn together; one will be taken and the other left.’ ‘Where, Lord?’ they asked. He replied, ‘Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.

      My reply:

      This debate is not about the existence of a rapture or not, but the timing. I resist the pre-tribe doctrine. Not the rapture it self.

      True Christians have always been, if the gift of discernment is used and accepted, able to identify an antichrist. All true Christians will have to resist the last and final one too. And not be a part of his “peace movement”.

      The vulture is not angles, but birds who will eat the flesh of dead men, left on the ground.

      Today, the use of discernment is not wanted in many Churches. No one is permitted to debate what a false teacher and a false prophet is. As long as “Jesus” is mentioned, all kinds of ideologies creep into our congregations, presented as Christian faith.

      The gross error within Christianity today, is that an antichrist, worldwide, is being hailed as a Christian leader. The Pope. The lesson from the Reformation is being deleted, and the New One World religion is being built. Say from the pulpit that the Pope is an antichrist, and it will be the last time you will be given the chance to preach. Mind my words.

  47. / Dear Ivarfjeld: Spotted the following not long ago on the amazing and surprising net. Enjoy. /

    MARGARET MACDONALD’S MAIN POINT

    By Dave MacPherson

    John Darby, Paul Wilkinson, and Thomas Ice are among those who have flunked the Margaret Macdonald test by covering up and misinterpreting what she (as the pretrib rapture originator) actually stated in 1830!

    My book “The Rapture Plot” discusses Margaret’s two-part main point (lines 58-63 in her 117-line account): seeing “one taken and the other left” before “THE WICKED” (Antichrist) is “revealed.”

    Hal Lindsey’s “The Rapture” correctly says she taught “a partial Rapture” – that only PART of the church will be pretribbed up.

    Walvoord’s “The Rapture Question” also describes partial rapturists as “pretribulationists,” and their charts show the “church” BEFORE AND AFTER their rapture in the same way Margaret was a “church splitter.” (Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” and “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines.”)

    Both John Cardale (in Edward Irving’s journal in Dec. 1830) and John Darby (in his 1853 book) described their visits to mid-1830 meetings Margaret conducted in her home. Darby’s “recollection” was such a mirror of the many details in Cardale’s published account 23 years earlier that I’m convinced that Darby was merely copying Cardale’s details, and Darby listed all of the details except one!

    Although Darby mentioned Margaret’s “texts on overcoming” (the “tribulation” or second half of her main point), he deliberately omitted her emphasis on “the coming of the Lord” (rapture) as the church’s “deliverance” before the “judgments coming on the earth” which all visitors, except Darby, admitted was a pretrib event (the “rapture” or first half of her main point)!

    Margaret’s visitors included writers for Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch.” Within weeks it reflected Margaret’s unique and original “church/church dichotomy” (“spiritual” church members raptured and “less spiritual” church members left behind) when it saw the “Philadelphia” church raptured BEFORE “the great tribulation” and the “Laodicea” church left on earth.

    Well, if Darby could be a revisionist with Margaret’s words, so could Wilkerson and Ice today.

    After Joe Schimmel’s Good Fight Ministries produced the “Left Behind or Led Astray?” video (the greatest video exposure ever of pretribism’s dishonesty-riddled history!), Britisher Paul Wilkinson savagely attacked it in an uber-unscholarly way in a video produced by the Berean Call Ministry titled “Left Behind or Led Astray? – Exposed.”

    In order to please his think-alike idol, John Darby, Wilkinson deliberately stopped his quotation of Margaret at line 45 so that he could omit the first (pretrib) part of her main point in order to be able to falsely declare that she advocated “a post-tribulation Rapture”!

    Thomas Ice has been even more nervy than Wilkinson, his British “twin.” When Ice quoted Margaret’s 117-line account in the Dallas Seminary journal he omitted ALL OF HER MAIN POINT but made up for it by quoting just BEFORE and AFTER it! (Ice’s “PhD” was “earned” at the unaccredited Tyndale Seminary in Texas which, according to World Net Daily, was heavily fined by the State of Texas for illegally issuing degrees – too many degrees for the Texas heat!

    Finally, if Ice, Wilkinson and other pretrib escape artists love Jews and Israel as much as they say they do, why don’t they want to be on earth during “Jacob’s trouble” to aid and comfort Jews and others? (Some Google items related to this include “Greatest Hebrew-Christian Scholars NOT Pretrib,” “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty.”

  48. If you like unique or unusual Bible prophecy articles, you will love one that can be seen by clicking the following which is anything but a pretrib rapture site:

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s