When one million men were sacrificed to Moloch

Within 138 days one million men died during the battle of Somme in 1916.

Seconds before being sacrificed to Moloch. The “go” order had been given. Those who refused to “go” where shoot by their own officers.

Young men in uniform died fighting for a frontier which was moved just 10 kilometers.

The battle of Somme started 1st of July 1916. It ended 18th of November.

This battle is the most cruel and meaningless bloodshed of them all. On an average, 7200 men lost their life every day. The area was a slaughterhouse just the size of a large metropolitan city.

 Leviticus 18:21
“‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

To put this battle into perspective.

Only by using machine guns and artillery, a handful of Generals committed a crime that killed 10 times more people than the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

The men with gas masks looked mistakenly like butches. They killed 7.000 men a day for almost four months. (both sides used poisoned gas).

The two allied Generals responsible for the blood of these men, had both been educated at the war schools in England and France.

Their tactics did not differ from the German commanders. Both side were convinced that the “enemy” would ran out of bullets, if they only sent enough soldiers walking across the green fields. The green fields were called “no mans land”.

This totally meaningless sacrifice of humans to Moloch made Pink Floyd write the song “us and them”.  Men were summoned from large parts of Europe, and forced to travel into a this small piece of land. The mission: Just do die the most meaningless death of them all.

These young men soaked the green fields of Northern France with their blood.

The secular rock band “Pink Floyd” tells about all who submit to military orders.  In the song there is a line who describe the battlefield:

 “Up, down, and round and round. Us and them. And after all, we’re only ordinary men”.

The battle along the river Somme brought little change. Mankind lost one million men. The military complexes of UK and France gained 9,6 kilometers of green fields in North East France, by soaking it with blood.

 1 Kings 11:5
He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.

The two leading Generals were secular men. The British commander Sir Douglas Haig’s was the son of an alcoholic who established the whiskey house “Haig & Haig” in Scotland.

When General Haig died, the United Kingdom made his funeral day, a day of national mourning,

General Joseph Joffre, the commander-in-chief of the French Army was also a son of a winemaker.

They must have cheered as the blood bath rolled on.

For the men who were brought to the military bench to be slaughtered, it were days of Great Tribulation.

Jesus said:

Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you. He warned us that those who fight with swords will fall by sword.

Many young men at Somme knew they were trapped, and said their last prayers. Many refused to obey orders, and was executed by their own officers. The men who obeyed the orders, just lived a couple of minutes longer.

All of those who believed in Jesus, did not die that day. They are home in Heaven. Amen.

First published: April 3rd, 2012.

Written by Ivar

30 thoughts on “When one million men were sacrificed to Moloch

  1. An excellent film that was based on the Great (What a terribly mistaken name) War is the 2005 French film “Joyeux Noël”. Spielberg’s latest fare “War Horse” is also very good.

  2. Evil old men lightly order young men to war. It is doubly evil when it is for personal gain. A certain very wealthy, well-known, American family collected $200 million from WWI—a staggeringly large amount of money for those days.

    The killing and money-making from the bloody sacrifice of war goes on and on. In the fifty years from 1946 to 1996, 149 major wars were fought, killing twenty-three million people. That number is double the number killed in the nineteenth century and seven times more than in the eighteenth century. The principle victims are always children. In the period of 1986 to 1996, two million children were killed, five million disabled and twelve million were left homeless and traumatized. In just one decade. Please dear Lord Jesus, come soon and save us from ourselves. Amen.

  3. Hi Ivar! Thanks for your site, it is very interesting.
    I just have a question about this sentence:

    “All of those who believed in Jesus, did not die that day. They are home in Heaven. Amen.”

    Question: Do you really mean that these believers can be in heaven before the first rising, the thousand year kingdom and the last doomsday when books will be opened? Revelations chapter 20.

    Just interested in your opinion.

    Best regards/
    Kristian.

    1. Dear azaryahu

      Shalom.

      You asked:

      Question: Do you really mean that these believers can be in heaven before the first rising, the thousand year kingdom and the last doomsday when books will be opened? Revelations chapter 20.

      My reply:

      I do not believe in the SDA (Sven day Adventist) and Roman Catholic soul sleep.

      I believe Elija was raptured into the Kingdom of Heaven. I do not believe he is the only human being there.

      I believe the spirit of Elija rested up on John The Baptist. I believe Elija came from the presence of God in Heaven during the Transfiguration. He appeared with Moses.

      I believe that Abraham meet pore Lasarus when He entered Heaven. I believe that the thief on the cross was taken to Heaven (paradise) on that day.

      Paul explains to us, that if he could chose, he would depart to be with the Lord. Since the Lord is alive an working up to this day, so would Paul have been at the moment of departure.

      Philippians 1:21-23

      For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.

      (end)

      I am convinced that Paul did not want to be laid to rest for 2.000 years, but to be with Jesus our Lord.

      1. Hi Ivar!

        Thanks for answering. I am also a little bit sceptical about the soulsleep. I just want to say that I appreciate a lot on your website. And I totally agree with some of your points, so please look at this dialogue as a sincere one. But you did not really answer the questions.

        1. The first resurrection has not been yet, so how can anybody be in Heaven? The question is where Elijah and Moses are? Probably in paradise with Abraham and Lasarus? I can not say that the
        Bible directly says where they are?

        2. Could it be that you mix Heaven with paradise. Since the thief on the cross were promised to be with Jesus it had to be paradise? Since you believe I suppose, that Jesus was preaching
        for the dead and should be away like Jonah for three days and three nights before he was risen! So how could the thief be in Heaven with the Father if Jesus was not there? He had to be in paradise which probably is another place then Heaven! A Waiting place.

        3. How do you interpret this verse: John 3:13, “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.”

        4. The second resurrection, the thousand year kingdom, doomsday has not been yet, so I have to ask again how can a Christian be in heaven yet? And where are the Christians when Jesus is ruling from Jerusalem under the thousand year kingdom?

        5. I noticed that Ellen wrote a post about this theme here where she has some good points. Don´t you agree?

        Shalom
        Kristian

  4. I agree with Ivar—there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that would indicate “soul sleep”.

    Hi Azaryahu,

    This is what the Bible seems to teach. There are some vague references throughout the Old Testament to the afterlife, but a theology of it was formed gradually under Judaism. The most prominent (and since the Book of Job is thought to be the oldest, the oldest on the subject in the Bible) information from the Old Testament is Job’s assertion that, “In the end, the Redeemer will stand upon the earth.” and “Yet, in my flesh, I will see God” (Job 19:25-26).

    Jesus told the “thief on the cross”, “Today, you will be with me in Paradise.” Sheol was the Hebrew name for “the place of the dead”. It was divided into two parts–with an uncrossable gulf between the two parts. You can see this illustrated in Jesus’ account of the “other” Lazarus and the Rich Man in Luke 16. The part where Lazarus was, is called, variously, “the place of comfort”, Paradise, or “Abraham’s bosom”. The other part was called, “the place of torment” or Gehinnom in Hebrew (Gehenna in Aramaic) and the Rich Man was sent there to be tormented because of his sins. His sins were specifically the sins of faithlessness and ignoring the plight of Lazarus, but it is likely that there were unmentioned others because faithlessness leads to sin. Interestingly, there was thought to be an exit at the “lower end” of “the place of torment” in Sheol which led directly into the “Lake of Fire”. Those at the “higher end” of “the place of torment” were thought to receive better treatment than those at the “lower end” which was reserved for the most evil.

    Since we are told that no one has yet ascended into heaven (that is the place where God is) by Jesus in John 3:13, “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” We are left with the conclusion that Sheol is the place that presently holds the dead—in separate quarters—Paradise for those in Messiah the Redeemer where they receive comfort and peace, and “the place of torment” for the unrighteous dead. So we see that there is a judgment of sorts immediately after death (Hebrews 9:27) but then there is a final judgment for those outside the Blood Covenant of Messiah the Redeemer at the Great White Throne Judgment.

    It seems that those belonging to the Lord, will, at the First Resurrection, enter the New Jerusalem in heaven. We are told that all the rest of the dead will be held until the Second Resurrection (1000 years later) puts them in the Great White Throne Judgment, and, if their “names were not found in the Book of Life,” from there, to the Lake of Fire, which is also known as the Second Death (Rev. 20:6 and 20:14).

    As I said before, the information in the Bible on the afterlife is a bit sketchy and vague, but this seems to be the theology that it teaches. We know for certain that Moses and Elijah are alive somewhere, as they were seen by Peter, James and John, at the Transfiguration. Jesus Himself assured us that He would always be with us in the afterlife. (John 14:2-3) That gives us hope and peace.

    1. Hi Ellen,

      You said:

      “Since we are told that no one has yet ascended into heaven (that is the place where God is) by Jesus in John 3:13, “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” We are left with the conclusion that Sheol is the place that presently holds the dead—in separate quarters—Paradise for those in Messiah the Redeemer where they receive comfort and peace, and “the place of torment” for the unrighteous dead.”

      My reply:

      Are you making an exception to this scripture by saying Enoch and Elijah (or at least Enoch) ascended into heaven (or Paradise) without seeing death — as you mentioned in another thread?

      Paul said in Hebrews 11 that Enoch died.

      Hope you are having a peaceful evening. 🙂

      1. Hi JM,

        No, I don’t think we know where Enoch and Elijah are but they are not in heaven as of Jesus’ statement of John 3:13. That, I think, leaves us with only two possibilities, either they are in Paradise, with all the other believers who have died, or they have not yet left their mortal flesh behind (Hebrews 11:5 says that Enoch, at least, was taken up WITHOUT dying.) The same words are used in the OT to describe the unusual way that Enoch and Elijah left.

        Hope you have a good evening too! 🙂

      2. Ellen,

        Then what did Paul mean in Heb. 11:13?

        Hebrews 11

        1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

        3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

        4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

        5 By faith ENOCH was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

        7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

        8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

        13 ALL THESE PEOPLE were still living by faith WHEN THEY DIED. They DID NOT RECEIVE the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.

  5. Hi Ellen!

    Interesting post. I agree with you that there has to be a waiting place which is divided. And the place where Lazaros is, is called Paradise.

    But I have a question about what you wrote here:

    “It seems that those belonging to the Lord, will, at the First Resurrection, enter the New Jerusalem in heaven”.

    The first resurrection is for the martyrs the book of Revelation says. So where are the other Christians? They wait I suppose? And how could they be in the New Jerusalem in Heaven before the Thousand year kingdom and before the Doomsday when books will be open? The book of Revelation says that the New Jerusalem will be after the Thousand years have passed and after the Doomsday?

    My brief interpretation is this: (There are a lot of other events of course)

    1. Great Tribulation
    2. Second return of Jesus
    3. First Resurrection, only for the martyrs!
    4. Thousand year kingdom, Jesus is on earth!
    5. Last battle!
    6. Second Resurrection
    7. Doomsday, books will be open.
    8. New Jerusalem.

    So I can not see that the book of Revelations say that Christians will go directly to the New Jerusalem after the first resurrection, since those Christians are martyrs and will rule with Jesus here on earth (after my interpretation.). The New Jerusalem will not even appear before the Doomsday and before the Thousand year kingdom?
    Or, what is your opinion?

    Shalom
    Kristian

    1. Hi Kristian,

      You said: “The first resurrection is for the martyrs the book of Revelation says.”

      I think this is a likely misunderstanding of what Rev. 20 teaches. I too would think that only the martyrs would be in the first resurrection if it were not for Rev. 20:4—“Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge.” Who are these people? I think they are very likely to be the “Twenty-four Elders” from Rev. 4 and 5. In Luke 22:30, Jesus tells His Apostles that they will not only eat at His table but that they will sit on thrones to judge the “twelve tribes of Israel” (which must have boggled their minds). Jesus indicated (in Luke 11:31-32) that even Gentiles would accuse the “unbelieving generation” of Israel who refused to listen to Jesus.

      Most Bible students believe that 12 of the 24 Elders will be selected from believing Israel and that 12 of them will be selected from among Gentile believers (it is my belief that the Church will have already been raptured and resurrected at the beginning of Rev. 4). But back to chapter 20. If you will notice, it speaks of the “souls” of the martyrs (vs.4b and c.) indicating that they are not yet resurrected at that point. But then in 4d, a resurrection is indicated when it says, “they came to life again…”. The resurrection of the last of the Tribulation martyrs may, in fact, draw the First Resurrection to a temporary close. Then verse 5 would be seen as a summary of those who would reign with Messiah during the Millennial Reign. Remember that the “souls” of the martyrs of Rev. 6:9 are told to wait until all their number is brought in before judgment begins on the unbelievers at the close of this age. 1 Corinthians 15:23-24 seems to indicate that the First Resurrection will occur in stages: 1.) Christ 2.) the Church when Jesus comes back to fetch “her” (else why all the Wedding symbolism at the Last Supper?) And then 3.) The resurrection of the Millennial saints will finally close the First Resurrection which would seem to span over 3,000 years (from Messiah’s resurrection to those of the mortal Millennial saints).

      Hope my ruminations make sense to you. 🙂

      Ellen

  6. p.s. remember that the New Jerusalem “comes down out of heaven” and it already contains the Church at the end of the Millennium. It is my belief that the Church will inhabit the New Jerusalem in heaven during the Millennial Reign. This is a somewhat unconventional stance but I believe it is what the Bible teaches. Namely that the Church will be in the heavenly New Jerusalem and believing Israel in the earthly Jerusalem–the “camp of God” in mortal bodies (albeit with extended life–see Isaiah 65:20) on the earth. There are a number of other teachings from Scripture that seem to support this belief.

  7. Hi Kristian,

    Arghhh! I had a typo in my name and my previous post was eliminated when I corrected my sign-in. I think you are mistaken about the martyrs being the only ones in the First Resurrection. On a cursory reading that is what it seems, I agree. BUT, there is Revelation 20:4a that must be dealt with. I basically said that the First Resurrection must include all Christians for variety of reasons. I had lots of Scripture in it too. I can’t stand to do it over again, forgive me. I will try to answer more questions but It would be helpful if you would include just one question at a time.

    Ellen

  8. Hi Ellen!

    Thanks for answering. Just a few verses:

    1 cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Note: Paul says that the disciples will be raised at the last trump:
    The question is when that is?
    —————————————————————————-

    Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Note: I really do not what it is to misinterpret? It clearly says that those disciples did not take the mark! And that they are martyrs! And that they will reign with Christ for a thousand years. Maybe there could be some more christians with them, but these verses do not point in that way.

    —————————————————-

    You wrote: “It is my belief that the Church will inhabit the New Jerusalem in heaven during the Millennial Reign.”

    Question: So the Church is in heaven for a thousand years without Jesus? Since Revelation says clearly that He will rule earth (I suppose) this length of time. It is somewhat unconventional yes, but I do not believe it is scriptural.

    It really makes not much sense. I suppose you are pre-trib, which is ok even if I do not share the view. So what happens? The rapture occurs and the church is going up in the sky to meet the Lord for a short while? And then they go further on to Heaven without Jesus, since he is returning back to Israel. Or do you mean that the Church is with him for a while before he starts ruling and then sent up to Heaven without him?

    So please, it would be interesting to know your opinion about this.

    Shalom
    Kristian

  9. Jesus promised that He would always be with His Church (John I4:3) so we know that wherever Jesus is, the Church will be and vise versa (as well, the Holy Spirit’s indwelling will always be with the Church–John 14:16). Jesus is the Righteous King and I do believe that He will come with all the saints (who are resurrected by that time) and the holy angels of God, to establish His Kingdom here on earth, at the close of the Tribulation.

    But then, I believe that He will return to the heavenly New Jerusalem with His saints after appointing a mortal “Prince” (the Prince is spoken of in Ezekiel chapters 44-46 in particular) to rule over the mortals left on the earth after the Tribulation. It seems that this Prince proxy will rule in Jesus’ place from the “throne of David”. (The first time I read the Book of Ezekiel, I was like “Wha??? Who is this Prince who is obviously mortal and running the Kingdom of a restored Israel???) The reason why I say that the “Prince” must be mortal is because he is described as having sons and we know that resurrected beings will not marry (Matt. 22:30)—no marriage, no babies. There are other details, like the division of land, that indicate an earthly kingdom as well. It is the only position that makes any sense when you consider chapters 37 through 48 of Ezekiel. They describe an earthly Kingdom, an elaborate and curiously modern-sounding Temple, and a people who keep the Law of Moses. This is something that has long been promised to Yahweh’s followers—as well as prophesied. Since there has never been a Kingdom as described in those chapters, nor has there ever been a Temple like that, it must be yet in the future. There are also the descriptions of the Millennial Kingdom in Isaiah chapters 2, 11, 56 and 65 that provide further details of this Millennial Kingdom. Since Isaiah 65:20 indicates that babies will be born and that “only sinners will die that young” (at 100 years), it again, indicates a mortal Kingdom established here on earth. There will be death but it seems that they will have greatly increased lifespans.

    The New Jerusalem is described as coming down out of heaven at the end of the Millennium and that it is the home of the Bride, the wife of the Lamb. (Rev. 21:9). From this, it can be assumed that when Jesus promised to take His followers to His “Father’s House” after He prepares a place for them, that it is to the New Jerusalem that He takes them—there to wait while the events of the Tribulation play out. Will “she” return to earth briefly to help establish the earthly Kingdom before returning to the New Jerusalem to wait with Jesus while the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom take place? Yes, it seems so. Jesus will vanquish the last of His enemies—death itself (Rev. 20:14 and 1 Cor. 15:26) Then “she” will come to earth with the New Jerusalem where there will be no Temple and no night and God the Father and the Lamb will inaugurate the Eternal State. The nightmare of sin and death will finally be over. Amen? 🙂

    1. Hi Ellen,

      Good post!

      If you are saying that the rapture happens before Rev. 4, (and I hope you are right!) then the martyrs under the alter in Rev. 6:10-11 have to be Old Testament martyrs since ALL OF THE CHURCH including the dead in Christ have already gone in the rapture.

      The whole picture changes based on where you see the rapture as taking place.

      1. If the rapture is in Rev. 4, then the 24 elders represent the Bride of Christ and the Dead in Christ.

      2. The great multitude in Rev. 7:14 are Church Age martyrs that came out of the *early part* of the Great Tribulation “from every nation, tribe, people and language.” This group will serve God in His Temple in a subordinate role but are not called Kings and Priests, therefore, NOT part of the Bride.

      3. Revelation 14:3 is the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. “This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the Throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. And no one could learn this song except those 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

      4. Rev. 20:4 are a second group of martyrs raised at *the end* of the tribulation.

      a.) They are from the Church Age who died after the Rev. 7:9 martyrs. b.) They are also the Old Testament martyrs spoken about in Rev. 6:10.

      5. The Sheep and Goat Judgment happens at the Second Coming for all survivors of the Tribulation and determines who will go into the Millennial kingdom.

      6. Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later.

      Please comment as I start on my four cups of Passover wine a day early! 🙂

  10. Hi JM,

    You said: “If you are saying that the rapture happens before Rev. 4, (and I hope you are right!) then the martyrs under the alter in Rev. 6:10-11 have to be Old Testament martyrs since ALL OF THE CHURCH including the dead in Christ have already gone in the rapture.”

    They appear to be the first of the martyrs from the Tribulation since the text says in verse 11 that they should put on their white robes and wait until their “brothers and sisters” are martyred. The Tribulation martyrs would, I think, be part of the First Resurrection but obviously not be part of the Bride.

    I will comment on the rest tomorrow. 🙂

  11. Hi JM,

    You said: “Then what did Paul mean in Heb. 11:13?”

    I think he simply did not say, “except for Enoch,” assuming that the reader would note the exception already spoken of in verse 5. I suspect that the Jews he was writing to would be aware of the exceptions of both Enoch and Elijah.

  12. p.s. I wonder if Paul wrote Hebrews? If he did, why did he not indicate that? It has been speculated that it was Priscilla who wrote it and that she could not put her name on it because the prejudice against women was so strong that the Book of Hebrews would have been rejected. She was obviously learned as Paul trusted her to teach Apollos along with Aquila—and in general, he did not permit women to teach men. There is a tradition that she was among the 70 who preached the gospel, however. There has also been speculation that she was a close relative of a rabbi and that is how she gained her knowledge.

    1. Hi Ellen,

      Regardless of who the author of Hebrews is, I don’t think that the writer would assume that the reader would note the exception “already spoken of in verse 5” regarding Enoch (and Elijah), as you said.

      That is pure speculation that the Jews would be “aware” of this exception so there was no need to clarify. We will have to disagree on this. If verse 13 says “ALL THESE PEOPLE were still living by faith WHEN THEY DIED — then THEY ALL DIED. Period. Anything else is adding and subtracting from the Word of God.

      As far as who wrote the letter:

      “There is still much evidence that Paul wrote the letter. The most compelling comes from Scripture itself. Remember that Peter wrote to the Hebrews (that is, the Jews; see Galatians 2:7; 9 and 1 Peter 1:1). Peter wrote: “…just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him [emphasis added]” (2 Peter 3:15). In that last verse, Peter is confirming that Paul had also written a letter to the Hebrews!

      “The theology presented in Hebrews is consistent with Paul’s. Paul was a proponent of salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8; 9), and that message is strongly communicated in this epistle (Hebrews 4:2; 6:12; 10:19-22; 10:37-39and 11:1-40). Either Paul wrote the epistle, or the writer was trained by Paul. Although it is a small detail, this epistle makes mention of Timothy (Hebrews 13:23), and Paul is the only apostle known to have ever done that in any letter.

      “So, who actually wrote Hebrews? The letter fills a needed space in Scripture and both outlines our faith and defines faith itself in the same way that Romans defines the tenets of Christian living. It closes the chapters of faith alone and serves as a prelude to the chapters on good works built on a foundation of faith in God. In short, this book belongs in the Bible. Therefore, its human author is unimportant. What is important is to treat the book as inspired Scripture as defined in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Holy Spirit was the divine author of Hebrews, and of all Scripture, even though we don’t know who put the physical pen to the physical paper and traced the words.”

      http://www.gotquestions.org/author-Hebrews.html

  13. Hi JM,

    You said: “1. If the rapture is in Rev. 4, then the 24 elders represent the Bride of Christ and the Dead in Christ.”

    How did you arrive at this? Why not 12 from among the OT saints—-that is true Israel, and 12 from the Church?

    You said: “2. The great multitude in Rev. 7:14 are Church Age martyrs that came out of the *early part* of the Great Tribulation
    “from every nation, tribe, people and language.” This group will serve God in His Temple in a subordinate role but are not called Kings and Priests, therefore, NOT part of the Bride.”

    We agree that those who come to faith during the Tribulation will not be a part of the Church just as faithful Israel was not part of the Church. ALL who will ever be saved will be saved by the Blood of Messiah Yeshua but all are not part of the Church.

    You said: “3. Revelation 14:3 is the 144,000 Jewish witnesses. “This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the Throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. And no one could learn this song except those 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

    And?

    You said: “4. Rev. 20:4 are a second group of martyrs raised at *the end* of the tribulation.”

    Yes, I think so.

    You said: “a.) They are from the Church Age who died after the Rev. 7:9 martyrs. b.) They are also the Old Testament martyrs spoken about in Rev. 6:10.”

    Yes, I think they are the ones who the Rev. 6:10 martyrs were told were coming as their “brothers and sisters”.

    You said: “5. The Sheep and Goat Judgment happens at the Second Coming for all survivors of the Tribulation and determines who will go into the Millennial kingdom.”

    Could well be. The Sheep and Goat Judgment has been taken to be the same judgment as the Great White Throne Judgment by some Christians but you may be right that it is a judgment separating out those mortals who will “inherit the earth” and enter the earthly Millennial Kingdom.

    You said: “6. Great White Throne Judgment 1,000 years later.”

    Yes, if the Sheep and Goat Judgment is at the end of the Tribulation, it would be separated from the GWTJ by 1000 years.

    1. Hi Ellen,

      Do you think the 144,000 are the Jewish witnesses that have been raptured into heaven? In another thread you said that you thought they would NOT be raptured and would go into the Millennial Kingdom. You didn’t confirm or deny scripture quoted.

      “This great choir sang a wonderful new song in front of the Throne of God and before the four living beings and the twenty-four elders. And no one could learn this song except those 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

      1. Looks like they are in heaven at that point but that does not preclude them being God’s agents (as resurrected beings??) in helping to rule over a Millennial Kingdom of mortals. The phrase, “with a rod of iron” (Rev. 2:27 and 12:5) in application to the Millennial Kingdom has always given me pause. Since it was said more than once, one wonders if we are not supposed to gain some insight from it.

        What it suggests to me is that mankind is given one last illustration of its rebellious nature during the Millennial Kingdom. The criticisms that men have leveled against God are numerous but some of them are:

        “Why is there sickness and suffering?—They are responsible for our lack of faith and obedience.” God’s answer, in the Millennium, is to take sickness and suffering away.

        The next accusation is something like: “Well, if only we could see your glory (Ezekiel prophesied that the glory will return to the Millennial Temple in Ezekiel 43) and if you actually governed this world with a strong hand, then we would have faith and obey!” God’s answer, in the Millennium, is to rule firmly “with a rod of iron” to the point where “…everyone, from the least to the greatest, will already know Me, says the Lord.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

        And finally, humans have accused, “Well, we always have the Satan and his minions here tempting us and infecting us with sin. If you would not have allowed that, we would have been faith-filled and obedient!” God’s answer is to bind Satan for the duration of the Millennium.

        YET, mankind tires of following the rules and STAGES ONE LAST rebellion even though the Millennial Kingdom will be almost like heaven on earth. They will reject the leadership of God for that of Satan—just as in the Garden. In that horrible debacle, Eve blamed the Serpent, and Adam blamed Eve. But this last time, it will be different. At the end of it, when the rebels are purged from their midst, humans will likely come to the wise and mature understanding that sin was each individual’s responsibility from the beginning. Finally, they will at last come to appreciate the freedom that they have been given by God and understand that without freedom, love is impossible. They will accept that freedom comes with a profound responsibility to follow Him who grants it. They will be eternally grateful that God patiently endured with mankind through it all and know Him for the very essence of love that He is. Their praise will echo down the eons of eternity…forever. Amen?

  14. Hi JM,

    You said: “That is pure speculation that the Jews would be “aware” of this exception so there was no need to clarify. We will have to disagree on this. If verse 13 says “ALL THESE PEOPLE were still living by faith WHEN THEY DIED — then THEY ALL DIED. Period. Anything else is adding and subtracting from the Word of God.”

    Then what do we do with Hebrews 11:5?

    You said: ““There is still much evidence that Paul wrote the letter. The most compelling comes from Scripture itself. Remember that Peter wrote to the Hebrews (that is, the Jews; see Galatians 2:7; 9 and 1 Peter 1:1). Peter wrote: “…just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him [emphasis added]” (2 Peter 3:15). In that last verse, Peter is confirming that Paul had also written a letter to the Hebrews!”

    So??

    You said: ““The theology presented in Hebrews is consistent with Paul’s. Paul was a proponent of salvation by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8; 9), and that message is strongly communicated in this epistle (Hebrews 4:2; 6:12; 10:19-22; 10:37-39and 11:1-40). Either Paul wrote the epistle, or the writer was trained by Paul. Although it is a small detail, this epistle makes mention of Timothy (Hebrews 13:23), and Paul is the only apostle known to have ever
    done that in any letter.”

    And Priscilla and Aquila would have been trained by Paul. As well, Paul apparently sent them to Timothy (or at least, he acknowledged that they were staying where Timothy was); he asks Timothy to greet Priscilla and Aquila for him. (2 Timothy 4:19) Why wouldn’t Priscilla and Aquila have mentioned Timothy in a letter that they wrote to the Hebrews, if they wrote it?

    You said: “Therefore, its human author is unimportant. What is important is to treat the book as inspired Scripture as defined in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The Holy Spirit was the divine author of Hebrews, and of all Scripture, even though we don’t know who put the physical pen to the physical paper and traced the words.”

    I would agree but many women have been denied the opportunity to serve the Body of Christ because the Church has formed a theology out of one line in the Bible: 1 Tim. 2:12 “But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” It is very easy to prove, FROM THE BIBLE, that Paul did, indeed, break his general rule from time to time. Priscilla obviously taught men. Women were unschooled in that day and were particularly emotionally-driven in the Mediterranean cultures (as they are to this day—but then, so are Mediterranean men, to some degree). In contrast, good teachers unemotionally discipline their work with penetrating intellectual insights and applications. These are qualities that most women have usually lacked down through the centuries, but there have always been some who should have been afforded the ability to use their God-given gifts and were not. Their gifts were often buried in female ghettos when they could have benefited the wider Church.

    Now seems to be a time of soul-searching in the true Church. We are waking up to the injustice that has been done through antisemitism and how that has ultimately hurt and deprived the Church. The Church also needs to repent as a Body for prejudice against women. I have never seen a woman who I thought had the gift of preaching (and I have seen a number of gifted women teachers) so I suspect that God, in His wisdom, desires that only men would lead a church. But within that restriction, women can and should be given more liberality.

  15. Thanks for the insights Ellen and JM. It is very interesting!
    There are some verses that I still wonder about like:

    1. Jesus mentions that if it would not have been for the elected, no one would survive the tribulation! Who is he referring to?

    2. Who will be before the Great White Throne Judgement? It seems like you Ellen believe that the Church will not be there?

    PS. Ivar. I´m still waiting for your input on the five questions I asked.
    When you find your time it would be very interesting to know your opinion. Or if somebody else would like to try to answer them.

    Shalom
    Kristian

  16. Hi Kristian,

    You said: :”1. Jesus mentions that if it would not have been for the elected, no one would survive the tribulation! Who is he referring to?”

    I think He is probably referring to those Gentile and Jewish believers who will be the mortal subjects of the Millennial Kingdom that will be set up after the Tribulation is over. In all, at least half of the population of earth will be killed between Satan’s wrath (Scripture says 1/4 in the “Seal Judgments”) and then God’s direct judgments (1/4 in the “Trumpet Judgments”) and we are not told what portion die in the following “Bowl Judgments” but it would seem many more will die. Some say two thirds or more will die based on the Zechariah 13:8-9 prophecy that two thirds of Israel will die. But no one knows for sure. The believing remnant (the “elect”) who will be left to rebuild will certainly need the Lord’s help. They will get the help that they need plus many blessings.

    You said: “2. Who will be before the Great White Throne Judgement? It seems like you Ellen believe that the Church will not be there?”

    No, all who are truly in the Bride of Messiah will pass before the “Bema Seat” of Messiah—a judgment of reward for services rendered to Him from a pure heart of love for Him. Some will be highly rewarded—others will receive a tiny reward (barely making heaven “though as through fire” 1 Cor. 3:15), but none will be punished—Jesus paid it all!

    No, the Church will not be subject to the “Second Death”—those coming before the Great White Throne Judgment will be. It is standard evangelical doctrine that the Church will not be at the Great White Throne Judgment except perhaps as observers or judges.

  17. Ellen. Thanks for replying.

    1. Mark. Chapter 13 clearly states that this is before Jesus returns. So the elect have to be the disciples! So your interpretation seems a little bit odd? Or, how do you explain it?

    2. Revelations chapter 20 says that the Book of Life will open up at GWTJ. Who are they, who have their names written there?

    Shalom
    Kristian

  18. Hi Kristian,

    You said: “1. Mark. Chapter 13 clearly states that this is before Jesus returns. So the elect have to be the disciples! So your interpretation seems a little bit odd? Or, how do you explain it?”

    I’m assuming that you are referring to 13:27: “And he will send out his angels to gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven. (I used the NLT here which actually uses the term “chosen ones” for “the elect” Another name for “the elect” are “the chosen ones”.) Because of their study of Torah, it was common (and still is, to this day) for observant Jews to refer to themselves as “the chosen ones”. Remember that neither Jesus nor His disciples had knowledge of when these events would occur—Jesus said that only the Father knew the timing. After His resurrection, His Jewish disciples again asked, “Lord, are you going to free Israel now and restore our kingdom?” (Acts 1:6). All Jews of that day, would have been taught about Israel’s glorious past and for a nation under the heel of Rome, there was a distinct longing for a return of Israel as the Kingdom of Yahweh. Jesus again replies that the Father sets those dates and that once the Holy Spirit came upon them, that they should concentrate on telling the world about Him. After His ascension, (Acts 1:9) the angels essentially tell them, “Men of Galilee, quit looking up in the sky for Him and get on with the task of evangelism. He will return one day in the same way as you saw Him leave, but for now, you have work to do.” If the Kingdom had been permanently taken from them, it seems likely that Jesus would have told them that, when they asked about it. In reality, all who are saved in Messiah (including Gentiles who become children of Abraham, by adoption, when we come to faith) are “the chosen ones” but that term always carried an obligation of mission for those who studied Torah. The Jewish people gave birth to the Messiah and it was/is their special task to tell the world about Him in their own unique way. The fact that they have failed to do this as a “nation of priests” has put off the return of the earthly Kingdom of God on the earth for these many, many centuries. But Israel is back in the Land (albeit, largely in unbelief) and there are signs that the nation is waking to just who Yeshua is. Jesus told us that the End would not come until the gospel had been preached to the ends of the earth. We are in sight of that goal.

    You said: “2. Revelations chapter 20 says that the Book of Life will open up at GWTJ. Who are they, who have their names written there?”

    There may be two Books of Life although the Apostle Paul uses just the term Book of Life, omitting “Lamb’s” in Philippians 4:3. The Lamb’s Book of Life would include the names of His Spirit-indwelt believers—those who are saved by grace through faith in Him. But, in Rev. 20, we see another group who are judged according to their deeds. It is my belief that some who go to the GWTJ will be granted clemency on the basis of how well they took care of their fellow man during their lifetimes, out of a sense of justice and compassion. (see Matthew 25:31-46) Otherwise, the GWTJ is a “kangaroo court” that condemns everyone who shows up there and, to me, Scripture really does not indicate that (although some evangelicals feel that it teaches just that).

    The term, “Book of Life” has a very ancient origin. In Hebrew, it is Sefer HaChaim and it was said to include all the names of those bound for heaven. In Hebraic thought, all who were born had their names in this book until the age of responsibility. Then they needed to become a son or daughter of the Covenant or they would have their names “blotted out” of the Book of Life.

    Hope this helps! 🙂

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