I have no problem with other views on the Great Tribulation. Most Evangelical Christians are in agreement, that from here onwards, it can only get worse.
But let me continue to explain what is going on world wide, without media covering it. May be its time to take a deep look.
1. Since 1970, more than 300 million children have been slaughtered in China. Inside the the womb of their mothers. The bloodbath of killing innocent children is global. Many Holocaust’s take place every year, in state sponsored Government hospital and private clinic’s within the so called “western civilization”.
Link to the story about abortion in China.
2. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, terminal cancer have become a global pandemic. If you take a look in a 100 years perspective, the number of cancer goes towards the sky after 1960. The nuclear tests in the atmosphere in the 1950 and 1960 polluted the air, and eventually the gens of mankind, beyond repair.
3. Children are perishing is their tens of millions every year, because of diarrhea. The drinking water in almost all of Africa and Asia is polluted. One third of the population of the World have hardly one day stock of food. They live in fear of starvation. Others goes to sleep hungry. They will rise in the morning, and spend the day desperately searching for something to eat.
4. In 2009, more than 165.000 thousand Christians were martyred. The large majority of them in the Islamic World. How many who were crippled, only the Holy Spirit knows.
Link to the story about martyred Christians.
Few, is any, cared for them, nor do people care for persecuted Christians. This genocide took place while Christians in Europe and the USA, enjoy living in a culture and societies spending 90 per cent of the resources of the World. They watch rubbish on TV, live in indulgences and sin, and goes to Church on Sunday.
5. 99 per cent of the Globe is covered by regime’s who are members of the United Nation. (UN). This assembly of gangsters, use hundreds of million of dollars every year, to support Islamic terrorism against a small state in the Middle East. The state of Israel. This global movement take pleasure in those who cripple and kill Jews, and would like to see the Mountains of Zion being re-occupied by Islam. And eventually see the whole Jewish homeland being destroyed.
So now you tell me, if you are a part of this global deception?
If you are lukewarm, why do you feel you should be taken away in a rapture? Why you should escape all this?
2 Timothy 3:1-5
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
Written by Ivar
News that matters 
Ivar,
You are very confused about the difference between the wrath of God (which is what the Great Tribulation is) and the wrath of man which has been experienced by all people through all centuries. The Tribulation of the end times is spoken of as the time of Jacob’s trouble. It is clearly intended to get the attention of the Jews. At the cross Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of those who would follow Him. We are already righteous in God’s sight and don’t need to be purified by His wrath in the tribulation. By isolating certain scriptures and making a theology out of it you can easily come up with a post-trib rapture. Only a pre-trib rapture, however, can correctly make sense of all scriptures relating to end times.
The 2 witnesses that you say must be the Christians and believing Jews makes absolutely no sense if you actually try to fit large multitudes of people into the passages in Revelation 11 that speak of them. For instance will thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of witnesses prophecy for 1,260 days clothed in sackcloth? Is it logical for thousands and thousands of witnesses to breathe out fire from their mouths and destroy anyone who wants to harm them? Will thousands all at once decide to shut up the sky so that it will not rain and will thousands strike the earth with plagues? That’s a lot of people with a lot of random power. Will thousands and thousands of bodies lie in the street of the great city while people gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial? The witnesses are clearly referred to as “two prophets”. Prophets are individuals, not groups. Would you suggest that all two or three hundred bible believing members of your church are A (meaning one) prophet????
Why would gentile believers be told to flee to the mountains of Judea (Matt 24:16)? Why would gentiles be in Israel at this time? Why would gentile Christians be told later in Matt 24:20, to pray that your flight won’t be on the sabbath? Only in Israel does transportation come to a halt and would there be laws about how far you can travel on the sabbath.
The woman spoken of in Rev. 12 is clearly a reference to Israel. If, as is stated in Rev. 12:6, the woman (Israel)fled in to the desert to a place prepared to keep her safe, then why is God only protecting the Jews and NOT His elect? Wouldn’t He protect His bride? The bride is the church. Those who come to know the Lord during the tribulation are not the church; the church age will have passed by then.
There are MANY things that I could write to refute the post-trib idea of rapture, but whatever someone believes about the rapture whether pre-, post-, mid-, prewrath, etc. should come from STUDYING the passages dealing with this issue and not from just a thoughtful reading of a few passages that seem to say what you have already decided that you want to believe.
One last thought that I will leave with you. The bible gives the command to Christians to go out and evangelize the world. If Christians are still here during the tribulation, then why has the job that we have been commanded to do been taken away from us and given to 144,000 Jewish men? (Please don’t go back and tell me that we are still evangelizing because we, as a group, are one of the two witnesses…I’ve already addressed that.)
Just so you know, I count all true believers as brothers and sisters in Christ and do not divide over eschaltology (except preterism, maybe). I have followed your website for a long time and appreciate your perspective and consider you a brother even though we don’t agree on the timing of the rapture.
Chris
Dear Chris
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
Pre-trib, post-trib, intra-trib, no-trib, and so on. If you need to put me into one on of these boxes, I will suit inside the group of intra-trib preachers. But I always underline in my teaching, that there are different views on the timing of the rapture, and the start and sequences of the Great Tribulation. I also explain that I teach a minority view within the Evangelical Christian community. I guess this kind of message is pleasing to Jesus our Lord.
I must say, than among the pre-trib preachers there are men who exclude those who do not agree with them from salvation. It is sad, and my best guess is that such preacher will find them self excluded.
Dear Chris.
Shalom.
You challenge me to see the difference between “the wrath of God (which is what the Great Tribulation is) and the wrath of man”.
In return, I will question your view on the authority and responsibilities of God. If God see something that is evil, and is capable of stopping it, He is partly responsible for the evil that takes place. Like the Holocaust, or the roasting of people in Hiroshima and Nagazaki. No on can hide behind the explanation, that this was only the “wrath of men”. That leads us into worshiping a God that is incapable, impotent, sleeping and slumbering. Such a view leads us into apostasy and idolatry.
God of the Bible is supreme. He can do whatever He desire, in regards to stopping the evil of men or not. I might object to this, but that will not change the realities. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the potter. I am the clay.
The responsibility for the events that takes place on the Earth, is not fully with men, alone. That Is why God can, and often do intervene. Prayers are being answered, miracles are taking place. Man can still not control the weather, solar storms, asteroids on their way towards Earth, and so one. But beyond the capability of men to dwell in and take pleasure in evil, the supreme power remains with God.
For a Jew who faced the Holocaust, or a Christian taking his morning walk in the streets of Hiroshima in august 1945, it would only be of academic interest if the merciless evil they faced, was a part God’s wrath or not. This matter can only be solved, by looking into the matters of faith. A man who face terminal sickness, accidents, terror and death, will not die. As long as He has surrendered his life to Jesus the Messiah. The rest will perish.
Dear Chris.
Dear Chris
Shalom.
It is not difficult to use the Bible to defend the intra-trib view in regards to the timing and purpose of the rapture, and the sequences of the Great Tribulation.
It makes no sense why Jesus says he shall shorten the days for the sake of the elect, if the elect is gone. If the Church and Holy Spirit is gone, the rest shall face eternity in Hell anyhow. But if people are being saved during the Great tribulation, it must be because the Holy Spirit still remains on the Earth. And so will the believers. But the believers will be rescued in the midst of the horrors.
Matthew 24:22
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
Jesus also said plainly that “ALL PEOPLE ” on the Earth shall mourn. Surely all persecuted Christians, who have been waiting for Him, will cry out in His name in desperation.
Matthew 24:30
“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
In the gospel of Luke, Jesus warn that the trouble will come on all who live on the face of the Earth. If we are gone, no need to watch, and no need to worry.
Luke 21:34
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
In the book of Revelation, “ALL PEOPLES”.
Revelation 1:7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
Be ready for a bumpy ride ahed, and rather chose to be persecuted, than to sit and do nothing.
Ivar
Hi Ivar,
I know you would rather burn your keypad than type a piece of replacement theology, but that is what you are doing when you refer to Christians as the ‘elect’. We are not the elect (chosen). We are ‘the called’. When the elect rejected Jesus who came to announce ‘The Kingdom Is At Hand’ (here now, if you will receive me) then his servants were sent to ‘call’ us gentiles.
The final seven-year tribulation period is the completion of the ‘seventy year prophesy’ given by the angel to Daniel [Dan 9:24-27]. Notice that the angel says, “seventy weeks are determined upon THEY PEOPLE and upon THEY HOLY CITY”.
It is entirely about Jews and Jerusalem. The only role gentiles play in this is that they will be brought to the place of judgement, where God will deal with them for persecuting his people and dividing his land.
Shalom
Phil,
Ivar did not make up the word “elect.”
It is in the Word of God.
Mark 13:20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
Philmayo,
Ephesians 2 says we are members of the Commonwealth of Israel. Romans 11, we are grafted in.
Kinda destroys the replacement idea… Read Ez. 37, especially vss 24-28… One Shepherd, leading one people, obeying one Torah IN the land… That is where the Son of David will be.
Where will you be? (Probably standing with the shocked christian masses who don’t expect a Kosher eating, Feast observing, Sabbath keeping tassel wearing Jew who says, ‘Come follow Me.’ ( 1 John 2:3-6) Might want to investigate what it really means to ‘walk as He walked.’
Shalom.
Chris, you must have missed the verse that says, “Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days….” Matthew 24:29…
There is NO secret rapture. there is no special delivery for the lukewarm lackadaisical church that is gonna get spewed out!
You may want to read the complete study I recently posted on my blog about who the Two Witnesses of Rev. 11 are. Yes, Moses and Elijah, but indeed, the clues point to two groups. Study it out.
Most are not prepared for what is coming upon the earth because they think they get a free pass. If Yahweh offers a pass, then He’ll have to apologize to every martyr in history. When Yeshua said ‘Take up your cross…’ He had no intention of an easy wide way to destruction. The rapture doctrine is just that.. an easy wide way to destruction.
Shalom.
That’s OK bro’, me and my pre-trib mates will explain it all to you on the way up 🙂
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom.
You wrote:
That’s OK bro’, me and my pre-trib mates will explain it all to you on the way up 🙂
My reply:
No issues. Since the rapture seems to be delayed, I will use the time to explain why you are still here.
Touche ! 🙂
Pete,
You said: The rapture doctrine is just that.. an easy wide way to destruction.
My comment: I don’t believe that at all, Pete. I have always understood that rapture would happen before the tribulation. And though others may not agree with me, Ivar once said to me and I completely agree with this: This does not hinge on my salvation, nor did Christ make it a requirement to being saved. I have accepted Christ as my Savior!
God Bless,
Gloria
Dear Glory.
When you believe in a Pre-Trib doctrine, it must be hard for you to read Ivar’s writings.
Dear Lis and Gloria.
Shalom, and love in Jesus.
The rapture is not included in John 3:16. The word rapture is not even mentioned in the Bible. Multitudes of Christians who have never heard of a rapture, will anyhow, suddenly leave the face of the Earth, and meet our Lord in the air. In my view, while the World is in chaos, and in the midst of the Great Tribulation.
My largest problem with the doctrine of pre-trib rapture, is that some use it to excuse why they are not persecuted, and should not be persecuted and even martyred. They do not even have to reflect on who the antichrist is, because they claim they will be gone when he arrives. No need to fear taking the mark of the beast, and support his evil.
They say, God will rescue me from all my troubles, I am a victor. Such a view makes martyrdom a silly thing to face. Where was God when John The Baptist was beheaded?
The second issue: I do not agree with this doctrine.
Lis,
You said: When you believe in a Pre-Trib doctrine, it must be hard for you to read Ivar’s writings.
My comment: Ivar and I have been friends and brother and sister in Christ for about two years now. I understood his view in the beginning, and I have my own understanding. (I can be wrong), BUT This did not affect Ivar and my relationship in Jesus.
And as I wrote Lis in an earlier message, my simple view (and I can be wrong) does not hinge on my Salvation. I give complete Glory to Christ, because accepting him as my Savior is the most important, and what matters the most.
God Bless,
Gloria
I strongly agree that eschatology is not a salvation issue. However, those who expect the easy out may not be prepared when it doesn’t come which will strongly contribute to the great falling away spoken of by Rav Shaul.
Blessings.
Pete,
When I think of rapture, I do not think of an easy way out of anything.
I am learning the Word everyday, and I can make mistakes. I have learned from my Pastor, from my brothers and sisters in Christ, and still I’m learning.
God Bless,
Gloria
I disagree (slightly) with both of you since I am a post-tribber. I do like your question though:
“If you are lukewarm, why do you feel you should be taken away in a rapture? Why you should escape all this?”
I believe that I won’t be taken away in a pre-trib rapture. That’s even more reason for me not to live a luke-warm life, since the ultimate test of my faith (the tribulation) could begin at any time. I shudder to think what will happen to me and my family if we are caught napping and fall into sin in the meantime.
But If I remain faithful to God it will all be OK, since believers are not under the wrath of God.
Dear schildan10
Shalom.
Thanks for this reply. Lord Jesus took my teas yesterday, after meeting Christians who face terrible persecution. He touched my heart, and spoke to my feelings. “You my son, are giving them small pockets of freedom”.
I do my best to help them, and see their joy of my presence. I know that inside the Great Tribulation, there will be pockets of freedom and joy.
There will be people coming to faith is one hour, and in the next hour face slaughter and martyrdom. Those who see the enemies of God approaching to kill their bodies, have saved souls that shall live forever. Amen.
amen
Dear Ivar.
I know, that you are living in the midst of much more misery, than we know here in Denmark.
But only Jesus can safe from the misery of this World.
Mankind is wicked from the Fall of Man.
Don’t let the misery of this World impact your view on Gods Word.
Dear Lis.
Shalom.
The pore and rich alike are sinners, who needs to be saved. Pore people are not suffering (only) because of crimes committed against them. They are them selves involved in witchcraft, idolatry, theft and prostitution, and so on.
The Word of God is infallible. On my journey on Earth, as an alien and a stranger in the World, I try to give as many people as possible the Gospel.
Dear Ivar.
Wickedness is not only consisting of our doings. It is a state of our natural heart. I know, you ar sharing the gospel, and I am glad to know. Only the Holy Spirit can transform our Heart.
Lis,
You said: But only Jesus can safe from the misery of this World.
Mankind is wicked from the Fall of Man.
My comment: Jesus has called his people to preach his word, heal the sick, cast out demons in his Name. It is what the Lord wants us to do.
God Bless.
Dear Ivar.
Shalom.
I understand.
b>The tragic state of the World and the Great Tribulation
So true. Our Lord Jesus revealed the secrets through this end-time prophet MDM :
1. You are now in the middle of the Tribulation – Latter half end of 2012
– Message given on July 20th, 2011
2. My Plan of Salvation for the world, began in My Time, on the 22 December 2012. This period of Great Tribulation will last some time
– Message given on December 25th, 2012
3. The Two Witnesses in the Book of Revelation:
– Message given on April 15th, 2012
You, My followers, are one of the Two Witnesses referred to in the Book of Revelation and who will be protected from the Heavens.
My Word, given to you My Remnant Church, may be cast aside as a corpse but My Word will never die.
The Jews will be the second of the Two Witnesses.
The two lamps are My Christian Churches, the traditional true Church and those followers of Mine who will be cast aside by the False Prophet.
The two Olive Trees are the Old Jerusalem Israel and the New Israel.
They, the Jews, will know that I am the Messiah at last and their preaching of the truth will also be cast aside and thrown out by the False Prophet and the Anti-Christ to rot like a corpse. Again, this chosen race will not die.
Both will feel defeated but this will not be the case for you will form, along with all other religions, the one true Church – the New Jerusalem which will rise from the Ashes.
——————————–
Who is MDM- Oldman?
I don’t feel confident about the stuff, you are bringing about.
Dear Lis Jensen.
MDM – Maria Divine Mercy. an Irish women claimed to be the last prophet of Trinity.
Please google it as I am not supposed to post any links here.
Her latest message titled :::
“This sign, not to be confused with the Mark of the Beast, will be to symbolise the new One World Religion“
It isn’t Jesus speaking for sure.
Oldman- please stop it.
“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” Matt 24:5.
Dear Oldman
Shalom.
You wrote:
…. the one true Church – the New Jerusalem which will rise from the Ashes.
My reply:
There seems to be some gross errors here. This is surely a false Prophet. The New Jerusalem is coming down to us from Heaven.
Revelation 21:2
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Oldman. The demons are still taking you for a ride.
Dear Ivar, Shalom
How did you came in a conclusion that we are in the Great Tribulation Now?
And who revealed to you about the 2 witnesses that you say be the Christians and believing Jews?
—————————
The prophecies, contained in the Book of Revelation, are only partially known.
No sacred servant in My Church understands the Book of Revelation, yet. They will be informed, and this I will do in parts. It is only for your knowing when I decide the time is right.
…
Nothing I give you now contradicts My Father’s Book, for this is not possible. I come, now, to conclude the Teachings set out by Me during My time on earth. When My Work is completed, My Covenant will finally be fulfilled. Then, I bring the Most Glorious Gift of Eternal Life.
Your Jesus
Part message given to MDM on January 27th, 2013
“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” Matt 24:5.
Oldman,
I do not know why you’ve never been banned from this site. MDM leads you to the wide gates of hell, and instead of you picking up the Word of God, and comparing her lies to what Jesus says, you continue to speak in deciet. You have been warned, your soul is in danger.
To all my brothers and sisters in Christ…We ARE NOT in the Great Tribulation now. If we were, then we would have to re-define both the word “great” and the word “tribulation”. In addition, anyone who lived during the Great Depression or WWII would laugh at the suggestion that what the world is experiencing at the moment is so horrible that if God did not shorten its days then no one would survive. What was experienced globally in those crises was FAR worse than anything that we are going through at the moment. As bad as things are, we could go on for centuries with the current state of affairs. What we are experiencing is not THE tribulation but the beginning of birth pains leading up to the tribulation.
When the Great Tribulation begins the anti-Christ will have already been revealed and will be the head of a one world government. The last I checked there was no single individual ruling the world who has demanded a mark be placed on the hand or forehead.
In Matt 24:21 it is Jesus himself who describes this last half of the tribulation as being a time of “great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now…” There is no way that what is happening now has reached that degree. Again WWII was far worse globally.
There are also many other events that the bible speaks of that must occur before or during the Great Tribulation such as The abomination of desolation, a covenant of peace between Israel and the rest of the world, that treaty will then have to be broken, Jewish sacrifices will be ended (they haven’t even started yet, so how could they be ended yet?) In Rev 13:5 the bible states that the beast will be in power for 42 months. If that figure is literal, as I believe it to be, then that equals 3 1/2 years. If he isn’t even on the scene yet, then we can’t possibly be in Great Tribulation.
Boy, I’m very verbose aren’t I??? Sorry, this is my second post on this issue and I do seem to go on…and on………and on……
Love to all my fellow believers out there.
Chris
Dear Chris.
Shalom.
You wrote:
….who lived during the Great Depression or WWII would laugh at the suggestion that what the world is experiencing at the moment is so horrible that if God did not shorten its days then no one would survive.
My rely:
Many would have survived a possible German victory of World Ear II. They would all have been supporters of the Nazis.
You wrote:
When the Great Tribulation begins the anti-Christ will have already been revealed and will be the head of a one world government.
My comment:
I disagree. The final Antichrist will be resealed inside the Great Tribulation. The UN, G7, GB are already in the process of forming the One World Government. In Davos we see a small elite telling the few sovereign assemblies that are left, to surrender and submit. The rest are already in submission.
You wrote:
In Matt 24:21 it is Jesus himself who describes this last half of the tribulation as being a time of “great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now…” There is no way that what is happening now has reached that degree. Again WWII was far worse globally.
My reply:
There were large nations in the World, that were not affected by military hostility and massive deaths during World War II. Like 90 per cent of Latin America, the whole of India, Australia, New Zealand, The USA (less Hawaii), and Canada. Only Arab North Africa was affected. Hitler never reached Persia and central Asia. Neither did Japan.
But 50 per cent of the Jews perished. Nothing like this had ever happened before on the Planet, since the flood. Today, many try to deny the Holocaust. They have removed the Nazis termination bid on the Jews from their school books, and have started to support the bid for a second Islamic Holocaust.
Today, the slaughter of children inside the mothers womb is global. In every nation the blood of the children are flowing, and 9 out of 10 people could care less. Their heart’s are at best lukewarm. Even claimed to be “Evangelical Christians” send their daughters to kill their children.
You wrote:
Jewish sacrifices will be ended (they haven’t even started yet, so how could they be ended yet?)
My comment:
The Jewish sacrifice on the Temple Mount stopped around 900 A.D, when the Muslim took over the place, and put up an abomination that causes desolation. Today, there are Ultra Orthodox Jews who continue to slaughter chicken, and offer animal blood to the “Lord”.
The great tribulation is not the wrath of God. it is the wrath of Satan. The church will go thru the wrath of Satan, which is the great tribulation, but will not go thru the wrath of God which is poured out after the rapture, which will be after the great tribulation. Those of you who believe you will be zapped out of here before the great tribulation will undoubtedly suffer the most. The pre-trib doctrine is a trick of Satan to catch people unprepared and unsuspecting.
Hang in there Ivar. I am with you all the way
Dear mr.gibby
Shalom.
It should be noted that the pre-trib doctrine is perfect for the false prosperity gospel. To those who proclaim this message of errors, the book of Job makes no sense. And the end time betrayal and death which Jesus speaks about, will not effect them. They consider martyrdom to be repulsive, and something that happen only to “apostate Christians” in the third world. We are told that such people are pore, and that poverty is a curse.
Dear mr.gibby
Shalom, and love in Yeshua.
That man are not destined to face God’s wrath must be seen in an eternal perspective. If not Christians being crippled and having intense pain, makes no sense. Christian’s do die of terminal cancer, even prosperity teachers die of such. Christians are crippled in accidents, face terror and death. All of this takes place ON EARTH, a place that dwells in injustice and evil. Inside the eternal Kingdom of heaven, the is no place for such.
To say that the Jews were under God’s wrath during the Holocaust, and they will be left without us in the Great Tribulation too, because we shall escape all such, is surely one kind of replacement theology. This is fruits of prosperity thinking, and self indulgences. This kind of religious ideology do mock both terminated Jews and Christian martyrs.
As an example: There were 1,5 million Armenian Christians who were slaughtered by the Ottoman Turks between 1914 and 1916. They faced the same merciless evil by the Muslims, as the Jews faced from the Nazis.
I don’t agree with this. Pre trib beliefs should motivate people to want to please our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ because he could come back at any moment. Pre trib beliefs and the false prosperity gospel have absolutely nothing in common. Also, I don’t consider martyrdom repulsive and I don’t think any pre tribbers do either. I pray for persecuted Christians all over the World and realize that Christians in Western Countries have it quite easy. (I’m Canadian.) Frankly, I find this comparison bizarre and I honestly don’t know anyone who holds to the prosperity gospel and is a pre tribber. I know quite a few amillenialists however that do.
Amein brother! Noah agrees. He was ON the earth when Yahweh brought judgment.
The entire argument for us currently living in the Tribulation period requires the final seventieth week of Daniel’s prophecy to be interpreted ‘allegorically’. In other words: read anything you like into it – just don’t take it literally! Similar to the way many interpret references to Israel as allegorical, so they can claim it is speaking of the Church.
That final seventieth week of years is about Daniel’s people (the Jews) and his city (Jerusalem). I doubt the allegorical supporters here would deny that because the angel giving him the prophecy tells him so.
We are also told that at the mid-point of the seven-years the Antichrist will stop the sacrifice and proclaim himself to be God for a period that is described as both “time, times and half a time” and 42 months. All of those pointers indicate a period of seven-years split down the middle, with The Great Tribulation lasting 3-1/2 years.
Any attempt to extend that seventieth week to last longer than seven years can’t be supported by scripture.
All comments accusing pre-tribulationists of “replacement theology”, “self indulgence”, or mocking both terminated Jews and Christian martyrs is bullying tactics to cover up the lack of scriptural integrity for your argument Ivar. And I think you should be above that.
shalom
Philomayo7909,
Why is the last week of Daniel’s prophecy not consecutive with the other 69?
Dear philmayo7909.
We must tell apart the Tribulation of Jacob and the Great Trabulation, which is about the hole World.
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom.
You wrote:
All comments accusing pre-tribulationists of “replacement theology”, “self indulgence”, or mocking both terminated Jews and Christian martyrs is bullying tactics to cover up the lack of scriptural integrity for your argument Ivar. And I think you should be above that.
My reply:
I agree. I went to fare in this comment. I should not have written the lines than include “mocking” of terminated Jews and Christian martyrs. I have asked Jesus for forgiveness, and help me to change my ways. Please accept my apology, and forgive me.
Still I feel the Pre-trib doctrine is based on errors. But I might be wrong, and will be ready for a rapture at any time. As a young Christian I have understood that those who claim they know everything, basically have not understood anything.
Dear Ivar.
The Pre-Trib doctrine is wrong. The Tribulation of Jacob and the Great Tribulation are two separat issues. The Rapture might come in the midst of the Tribulation of Jacob.
Dear Lis.
Shalom.
I agree with you. But I have to treat all who disagree with me, with dignity and respect. The comment on mocking of terminated Jews breached my own rules set for this blog. That Is why I have to apologize.
Dear Lis
Shalom.
Jacob’s trouble is in my Bible explained to be linked to the restoration of Israel, and the times ahead. So if Jacobs trouble and the Great Tribulation are the same, the Great Tribulation started somewhere in the 1930-ties, when the Nazis started to trouble them. And it seems to continue with Islamic terror today.
Jeremiah 30:10 explains to us that Jacob’s trouble would starts when the Jews are in the diaspora, and it explains that Jacob again (not for the first time) will have peace and security. In the diaspora there was neither peace nor security for the Jews.
Jeremiah 30:10
‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
Dear philmayo7909
Daniel 9: 2 speaks about 70 years. Easy to understand, easy to explain.
Daniel 9:25 speaks about “sven sevens”, and 62 sevens”.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
I have seen countless explanations about what this means. Please do not spend to much time making hypotheses about this mysterious wordings. You will just be adding to possibilities.
Jesus said plainly. Its pointless to try to count correctly to the year and months of His second coming. He Him self not knowing, nor explaining in details this prophecy of Daniel to His disciples. Jesus told us to look for the signs of the age. We can all do that.
When God speaks about 70 years, I believe Him. That is why Daniel could read the book of Jeremiah, and correctly predict that the exile in Babylon would be exactly 70 years. But “seven sevens”?
OK, I will answer all the replies to my post with this one, rather than individually.
Steven. You asked: “Why is the last week of Daniel’s prophecy not consecutive with the other 69?”
Daniel 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be SEVEN WEEKS, and THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after THREESCORE AND TWO WEEKS shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
** The seven and sixty-two weeks = 69 weeks of years were completed during the time of Messiah, leaving a final week of years that I described in my last post. There is no way the last week can run consecutively with the 69.
Liz Jenson, you wrote: “We must tell apart the Tribulation of Jacob and the Great Tribulation, which is about the hole World.”
“The Pre-Trib doctrine is wrong. The Tribulation of Jacob and the Great Tribulation are two separate issues. The Rapture might come in the midst of the Tribulation of Jacob.”
** I disagree. Read the opening statement made by the angel to Daniel: “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,”
According to Gabriel the entire 70 weeks is about the Jews and Jerusalem. The gentile nations will be judged during the final week for their persecution of Jews and dividing God’s land.
As for the timing of the rapture, I think it will be pre-tribulation, but I would say nobody can set a date.
Ivar, no problem bro’.
God’s blessings on you all.
Dear
Shalom.
Who said that a “seven” is a week?
42 times in the Bible, the word “week” is mentioned.
Leviticus 12:5
If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
How do you know, that the woman is supposed to be unclean for “two sevens”?
Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.
The second issue is that a day for the Lord, can be 1.000 years. So we just have to keep on guessing how long a “seven” is supposed to be.
The 70 weeks, or 490 years, begins with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. This was fulfilled in 457 BC by Artaxerxes I. The first part of this is 7 weeks (49 years), followed by a period of 62 weeks (434 years). The Anointed one would not appear until these first 69 weeks were fulfilled. This means He would not appear until the last week, and indeed he did. The first 483 years, beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, would man that the Anointed one would appear in the year 27 AD (there is no year 0). 27 AD is the year in which Jesus Christ was baptized, or anointed. In the midst of the week, the sacrifices would cease. 3 1/2 years later, Jesus would be crucified at Golgatha, and thus the sacrifices and offerings were no longer sufficient for the atonement of sins. Another 3 1/2 years later, Stephen would be stoned to death. The last week, and the whole 490 years, ends precisely on the year in which the gospel began to be reached to the Gentiles. This is important because the 490 years were set apart specifically for Daniel’s people: the Israelites.
Steven,
your timeline has a major flaw in it. Artaxerxes I Longimanus wasn’t the man who made the original decree to rebuild Jerusalem. God says it was Cyrus that made it.
“who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,” and of the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.”‘[Isaiah 44:28]
Decrees made by Medo/Persian kings had to be carried out, no matter what. Even the king who made the decree didn’t have the power to change it. Witness how Darius was powerless to save Daniel from the lions den.
What Artaxerxes did was to make sure that his predecessors decree was carried out in accordance with the law.
In addition to this, the rules of the original language don’t allow for the separate groups of Shaboah to be run consecutively.
shalom
philmayo7909,
Cyrus gave only the decree to rebuild the temple. It was Artaxerxes that gave the command to rebuild the city and its government.
Steven,
I think we can both agree that God knows his history.. So if he says Cyrus was the first of the kings to give the command to build Jerusalem, then that is what happened.
The facts that reveal the true timeline are dispersed throughout scripture. A piece of the truth here, another piece over there, rather like a jigsaw.
Think of it as a group of statements under consideration of a judge in a Court. Some statements may only contain part of what happened, and therefore (if considered alone) paint an innacurate picture.
The fact that Ezra only records Cyrus mentioning the temple in his decree, means only that Ezra ‘didn’t record’ Cyrus mentioning Jerusalem. It does not mean Cyrus ‘never’ mentioned Jerusalem.
Ivar,
The week of years (Shabuah) is like the way we refer to 10 years as a decade. It was in common use by the Jews of that time because it was a key part of Moses law.
They were sent into Babylonian captivity because they had refused to let the land rest every seventh year (Sabbath) for 490 years. So God said they owe the land 70 rest years. 70 X 7 =490.
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom.
You wrote:
They were sent into Babylonian captivity because they had refused to let the land rest every seventh year (Sabbath) for 490 years. So God said they owe the land 70 rest years. 70 X 7 =490.
My reply:
Please show me in scripture, where this is written.
And the Lord spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai, saying, 2 Speak to the children of Israel, say to them: When you come into the land that I am giving to you, the land must keep a Sabbath to the Lord every seventh year. 3 Six years you shall plant your field, and prune your vineyard, and gather its fruit. 4 But in the seventh year there shall be a Sabbath rest for the land, a Sabbath to the Lord. You shall neither plant your field nor prune your vineyard. 5 Anything that grows of its own accord of what you would normally harvest you shall not reap, nor gather the grapes of your untended vine because it is a year of rest for the land. [Leviticus 25:1-5]
For that reason he brought the king of the Chaldeans against them, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no mercy on young men or young women, or on the old or the weak. God gave them all into his hand. 18 And he plundered all the articles of the house of God, treasures great and small from the house of the Lord, and treasures of the king and of his officials, he took them all to Babylon. 19 Then they burned the house of God, and broke down the wall of Jerusalem. They burned all its palaces, and destroyed all its precious possessions. 20 And those whom he didn’t kill, he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the kingdom of Persia came to power. 21 So the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah was fulfilled. The land enjoyed its Sabbaths whilst it lay desolate for seventy years. [II Chronicles 36: 17-21]
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom. and thanks for bringing me deep into scripture, and the Prophetic World.
2 Chronicles 36:17-21
21 The land enjoyed its sabbath rests; all the time of its desolation it rested, until the seventy years were completed in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah.
(end of scripture)
This verse do not explain why the exile is to be exactly 70 years, and not any other numbers. Nor does it imply that it is breaking the Sabbath rest of the land, that is the reason for the exile.
In the book of Jeremiah, I have not fond any words that can confirm this. It was the Jews worshiping other “God’s” that were the reason for the exile to Babylon.
In Daniel’s prayer for the return, no mentioned about the Sabbath rest for the land.
The seven sevens, and the 62 sevens are still a mystery to me.
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom.
The exile to Babylon started approximately 590 B.C, and was over in 520 B.C.
From 590 B.C to 30 A.D, there is 620 years.
If ” a seven” was 10 years, we are speaking of 62 sevens.
Finally I got it. The seven sevens are the 70 years in captivity. And the 620 years are the years from the captivity started, to the year Jesus was crucified.
Amazing accuracy.
Thanks for helping me.
Ivar, those two passages of scripture I quoted give the commandment for a seventh year sabbath and the consequences of disobeying. I don’t see how it can be any clearer.
“Thus says the Lord: After seventy years of exile in Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill my good word to you, and bring you back to this place. 11 For I know the plans that I have for you, says the Lord, plans of peace and not of evil, to give you a good future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon me and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will look for me and find me, when you wholeheartedly search for me”. [Jeremiah 29:10-13]
Idolatry was another judgement against them, but the seventy years of Babylonian exile was determined by the number of Sabbaths.
Ivar,
In an earlier message I compared what we are experiencing in the world today to what was experienced in WWII to show that we couldn’t possibly be in the tribulation now if something in our past on a global scale was much more trying. This statement was not intended to be a major focal point since I gave other reasons, as did Philmayo, that are even more compelling, but since you addressed this statement directly and downplayed the hardships felt in certain areas of the world, please allow me to continue down this “bunny trail” in response to your assertion that the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India et al were not affected by WWII. US: (my country) 16 million served in the war, over 292,000 killed directly in battle, over 114,000 killed outside of battle, more than 672,000 wounded. Canada: 1.1 million served, more than 40% of the male population aged 18-45 enlisted, approximately 50,000 killed. Austalia: nearly 1 million served, 27,000 killed and 23,000 plus wounded. Their nation was also directly attacked. New Zealand also sent a total of 140,000 servicemen overseas of which approximately 12,000 were killed. India sent over 3 million. Many Latin American countries were involved as well. Even though the bulk of the civilian population of these nations did not directly experience the ravages of the war, there was hardly a family that did not have a member serving and the loss of life was great as a percentage of the total population of most of these nations. The effects of rationing and interruptions on imports made life difficult in all nations as well, even those otherwise not involved in the conflict. I could go on, but the main point is the fact that we can’t possibly be in the THE tribulation.
P.S. I did appreciate you humble and gracious apology to Philmayo regarding one of your responses. Only a true brother in Christ who is seeking the Lord’s direction could have done that.
In Christ’s service,
Chris Henry
Dear Chris Henry
Shalom.
Thanks for taking note of my apology. I have no problem to admit mistakes, and underline that I might be wrong on certain issues.
In regards to World War II, let us end any dispute. I am aware that America lost soldiers in this war. My point was that there was no major military hostility on American soil, beyond Hawaii, so the Americans had places to run and hide. That will forever separate World War II, from the Great Tribulation.
A not delivered child, that is slaughtered inside the womb of a mother, has no place to hide. No where to run. Neither a man who suffer from terminal cancer. The people who walked in the streets of Hiroshima, had no place to seek shelter. Neither the Jews who were gathered inside the Nazi Concentration camps. I could go on. A child that is about to starve to death in Sudan, has no place to seek comfort and safety. For them this is the Great Tribulation. And it will be world wide.
Ivar, you said:
“The exile to Babylon started approximately 590 B.C, and was over in 520 B.C.
From 590 B.C to 30 A.D, there is 620 years.
If ” a seven” was 10 years, we are speaking of 62 sevens.
Finally I got it. The seven sevens are the 70 years in captivity. And the 620 years are the years from the captivity started, to the year Jesus was crucified.”
My reply:
The first exile that included Daniel is generally agreed to have taken place in 606 bc. The first group arrived back at Jerusalem in 537 bc. It’s important to remember we are talking Biblical 360-day Lunar years, not our current 365-day Solar years. So 69 Solar years are equal to 70 Lunar years.
The period up to Messiah is 62 X 7 years. Not 62 X 10 years. A literal total of 434 years from a set point after the Jews return home, to a set point in the life of Jesus Christ.
Now I could give you the dates, and it would amaze you at the Lords accuracy and genius, but it is a major feature of a book I am writing, so it’s top secret for now. But I will make you among the first to know when I finish writing 🙂
Shalom.
Dear philmayo7909
Shalom.
I admire your desire to calculate this correctly. But with all respect, there are many versions of these calculations. I am aware of the exile to Babylon. I am aware of the end of the exile, and the return to Jerusalem. The exact timing leads us into a dispute, of something that in not central to the doctrines of our faith. I accept that Jesus came in the fullness of time, and in accordance with scripture. And you have helped me to understand the “seven sevens” and 62 sevens. Again I thank you for this.
Ivar,
There is another principal of God’s law that will help you to understand why it is seventy weeks of years (70 x 7 years) and not 70 x 10 or any other number.
During their Babylonian exile the Jewish leadership was rebuked many times by God for not repenting their sinful ways – recorded in the book of Ezekiel. They were warned of the consequences of their refusal to repent in the book of Leviticus:
“And after all this, if you do not obey me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.” [Leviticus 26:18]
“Then, if you walk contrary to me, and will not obey me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.” [Leviticus 26:21]
“And after all this, if you will not obey me, walking contrary to me. Then I will walk contrary to you in my fury. And I will punish you seven times for your sins.” [Leviticus 26:27-28]
After almost 70 years in Babylonian captivity the angel told Daniel that his people had incurred the Leviticus penalty of seven times seventy.