“What must be said,” that Israel plans to use its “atomic power” to “extinguish the Iranian people.”
These are the words of former Nazi-officer Gunter Grass. He is a former Nobel laureate.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai declared German writer Gunter Grass persona non grata on Sunday, following the publication of a poem by Grass declaring Israel a danger to world peace.
Grass, a former Waffen-SS member and Nobel laureate, wrote in his poem “What Must Be Said,” that Israel plans to use its “atomic power” to “extinguish the Iranian people.” Following an uproar that included a statement against the poem by Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Grass responded that his criticism is of Netanyahu, and not Israel as a state.
According to Yishai, the German writer is “promoting the idea he was a partner to when he wore the SS uniform.”
In past years, Günter Grass has repeatedly cast the Israeli government as the root of all evil in the region. The author chose to release his newest attack on Israel, whom he claims is threatening Iran, just two days before the start of Passover, when Jews for time immemorial have been murdered for alleged blood libel,” said Berger.
Source: Jerusalem Post
My comment:
I have decided not to publish the poem. It is simply not a poem, but a few Neo-Nazi statements on a piece of paper.
The Bible says a dog will return to its vomit.
All Waffen SS officer’s swore oats to defend the Nazi Fatherland and their Fuhrer Adolf Hitler. The Nazis were convinced that the Jews were a threat to “world peace”, and needed to to be contained. The “final solution” was to rob Jews from any kind of citizenships, so they could not escape Festnung Europe. Hitler knocked down every border in Europe to collect them all, and send them to the gas chambers.
Israel has never threatened Iran. Never. Up to 1979, Israel was one of the largest buyer of Iranian oil and gas. It was not Israel who clanged their policy in 1979. It was the new totalitarian Islamic republic that started to instigate fresh hatred towards the Zionist state.
The present President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has several times spoken in public that Israel shall be destroyed. Only outright evil persons will deny these facts. As evil as former Nazi-officer Gunter Grass. He hid his records as a SS officer up to 2006.
The good news is that Jesus the Messiah is the lord over the body and soul of Gunter Grass. He lives in rebellion against His own creator God of Israel. If He do not repent, He will face judgment and perish.
Written by Ivar
Banjara Origin News 
Incredible that this man is actually proud of being an SS officer! This world is becoming more and more wicked by the second. We long for the return of our Messiah Yeshua to put an end to evil.
Dear Ellen.
Shalom.
You wrote:
Incredible that this man is actually proud of being an SS officer!
My comment:
Many Germans have testified that the Nazis were never removed from Power in Germany. The Americans took men like Von Papen into custody, just to release him on a promise to work for American interests in Germany and Europe.
The Nazis who had key information to how to complete the Manhattan project, were rounded up in Germany in the winter of 1945. They were given free tickets to America, and give a red carpet welcome in Washington.
Japan was about to surrender. Communism were their new common enemy. Just as Hitler had warned in 1934-1938. Communism was rising to power in China. Russia and China might invade the fallen Japanese empire. The communists took Warsaw, and was about to occupy Berlin.
Would Moscow walk further, to Paris and Milan?
The US did not want to give political asylum to Nazis who held no VIP information in their pocket. US agents had already in 1943 discovered the death camps of Jews in Poland, and this was too much Jew-hate to bear, even for the American Government.
The Nazis with too mush stolen gold from Jewish homes, were rather given tickets to Argentina. They re-settled in Latin America, and helped the Fascists dictators there to remain in power.
Gunter Grass is only one of many.
The Nazis survived World War II. Nazism is back to hunt the Jewish people and the state of Israel.
Yes—I knew a great deal of the information that you presented here. I just thought that the official German position today is that Nazism was and is a pernicious force. Does no one in Germany stand up and denounce this man for being proud of his Nazi past? I think it is significant that Grass only recently revealed that past. Things must be changing for the worse in Germany.
THIS IS SOME FRESH NEWS, TO THE EAST.
KEEP UP
REGARDS & STRENGTH FOR YOUR WORK
Dear 35ronnie
Shalom.
Thanks for blessing me.
I will not keep quiet. May Jesus the Messiah bless you and keep you safe in our days of massive deceptions. Amen.
Amen
I think he’s a tad confused. It was ze Germans whom planned to exterminate the Jews, the Jew shave no desire to exterminate anyone, thats why they keep inventing things to improve our lives and make things better for the world, they do however make the mistake of defending themselves against agressive neighbours whom contribute nothing to the world but are happy to take from those whom do. Naughty israel how dare you.
Quote-
“It was ze Germans whom planned to exterminate the Jews, the Jew shave no desire to exterminate anyone, ”
Ummm.. The Torah is probably the oldest recorded (preserved) account of “Lebensraum” known to mankind..
When does the statute of limitations run out on on racial mass extermination?
I will admit that 1940 C.E. is a lot more recent than 1200 B.C.E.,
but the concept that the Jews of all peoples have never exterminated anyone is pretty loony, especially considering almost every household in the western world has a Old Testament on their bookshelves with a written account of the calculated, deliberate and merciless extermination of the Canaanites and other related tribes.
————————–
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that has known man by lying with him.
Numbers 31:18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 7:2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
Deuteronomy 20:16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Judges 21:10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
Please answer my question:
Why do you point your finger at the Jews, and not the US?
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
You quote a book from the Torah:
Judges 21:10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.
My reply:
Why do you attack the Jews?
It is God of the Universe you are attacking.
If He the author of life and death?
Shalom again Ivar.
My god is Jesus.
I do not believe that a just god wanted a mass slaughter of Canaanites, nor do i believe that such a just god who could topple the Walls of Jericho with trumpets needed such a slaughter.
I think these acts are the acts of men, and the Torah/Old Testament to me is man recording and justifying his actions to suit his wishes and gain, but deflecting responsibility upon “God”.
The god in Christianity told us to “turn the other cheek”, he spoke the tale of the “Good Samaritan” who explicitly went to the aid of another person who was from a alien, combative population..
He told his disciples to put away their swords when his oppressors came to the garden of gethsemene to take him to his death..
That is my god. The god that can topple walls with trumpets yet needs his followers to mass slaughter babies and rape their sister and mothers as slaves is the work of MAN.. not God.
As is regularly the case, man likes to shelter his actions and record them as a “service to god”, because even the wicked and malevolent wish to feel just, good, and decent. .
Quote-
“Why do you attack the Jews?
It is God of the Universe you are attacking.”
____________________________
The God of the universe… NO ONE, NO COUNTRY, can prevail against.. we agree?
So, whatever the Iranians could do, or could intend, it is futile for them to even bother-
IF you truly mean what you say.
The God of the universe does not need me to take to the internet and stir BOMBINGS, wars, espionage, ASSASSINATIONS..
These are not the work of the almighty God of the Universe.
These are the acts of man..spineless, cowardly, deceitful, plotting men.
No carbon-based, temporal weak man can overcome the will of God, and to suggest that this God can be overcome by a dwarfish Iranian elected official rather seriously conflicts with your self-proclaimed awe at the power of the God of the universe.
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
You wrote:
These are not the work of the almighty God of the Universe. These are the acts of man..spineless, cowardly, deceitful, plotting men.
My comment:
Do you believe in a non potent God, that is not capable of handling men?
Why so much fuss about Guenther Grass; he cannot have been an officer of the SS; he was only seventeen years old at the end of the war. At that time I was 14 years of age; I was obliged to put on my fathers military coat, boots and pistol and had to join some unit that was fleeing from the left side to the right side of the Rhine. You were not asked if you would like to join the SS. At that time this was of no importance, all that mattered was to have someone who was able to shoot.
Dear Gustavo Vomend
Shalom.
That Gunter Grass was 17 is no excuse. People who are 17 rape and murder, and are sent to prison.
Hitler was a smart man. He took over the ownership of the Children of Germany. The Nazi-party owned them from their infancy. The best killers were ordained as officers already in the Hitler Jugend.
You sir are fulll of shit he is simply saying what he feels is true that Isreal is the onenthat is going to attack iran an start a war but anytime you speak out against isreal you people bring up the same old bullshit that everyonw is anit-smetic cant you come up with something new that shit is getting so old anf havent you people leeched off germany enough how much more money do you jews want!
Dear Ace.
Shalom, and welcome to this site.
Out of the mouth comes what the heart is full off. You filthy language expose you. This kind of messages are not acceptable on this site, and your next messages will be spammed.
But if you repent, you will not only be permitted to write on this site. You will be found inside the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus the Messiah forgives everyone who repent from their sins, and begs Him for mercy. Jesus the Messiah died for the sins of the World, and this atoning sacrifice is available for you too.
In regards to Israel, she is not free from sins. But the Jewish people has the right to have their own homeland, which is a little bit larger than the area of Greater New York. When Iran threaten to destroy Israel, the Jewish people will do the same as you.
Gustavo and ace
The question is not that he joined the SS during the war, but he’s still advocating for it. Older but not wiser.
And what do you expect Israel to do? Wait nicely on its own destruction, lie down and die without fuss so as not to upset the UN and the rest?
Iran `s plans, we know very well They have never hidden that they intend to wipe Israel off the face of the earth Do you think they change their minds and shut down its nuclear weapons program?
In that case, you are an even bigger fool than you appear
No, Israel. Never let the people make lampshades out of your skin again, nor stop the pads with your hair But first, most important, search your Lord, Israel. He will fight for you and be your refuge in times of danger.Gd bless you
And you Mr. Ivar Fjeld, for your work to get all this information.
Is it warned it is, the rest is in the hands of the Lord
http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/News/Article.aspx?id=265349
The descendants of the Assyrians, Canaanites, Ishmaelites, Babylonians and Persians have never made any secret of their animosity toward Israel. They are ancient enemies of God’s people. Their father the devil inspires them to hate Israel. But God will protect His people.
Quote-
“their animosity toward Israel. They are ancient enemies of God’s people. Their father the devil inspires them to hate Israel.”
Yes, the 3 month old infant canaanite baby ‘hated Israel’, which is why they were mass murdered and that infant got what he deserved.. You have a truly sick mind. You realize this was the exact SAME Nazi ideology and thought process-
a surviving race-enemy – even a infant – could only cause them harm as a adult, so get rid of it now.
what idiocy. Either lebensraum is wrong, or its OK if it serves the purpose of the majority population.
What you find is this- people who want to kill or mass murder, steal, harm, cause massive wrongs against others… they will still want to see themselves as good, honest, just people.
So,.. what they do is, they create their own ideology that turns the “others” into as you state “DEVILS”, which then permits their actions to mass murder these self-proclaimed “devils”.
Otherwise, its hard to kill a child or baby who your instinct is to take care of, but once they have been verified as “devils spawn” or “sons of satan” then its gets easier to sanctimoniously mass slaughter them, at least in your demented mind.
During the early mass-killings of Jews in the Baltics, many of the Jews shot were German-speaking Jews from within Germany who had been shipped there by Heydrich via rail.
Over two days, many of these were shot, and many that were shot had to be shot by Baltic nationals or a small number of highly ideologically-indoctrinated Einsatzgruppen.
Many of the German Jews shipped to the Baltic in this movement actually survived the war because the shooting in the Baltics was deliberately called off early.
The reason its was aborted, and most of these Jews were instead shipped to work camps was.. they German Troops in the Baltics reacted very negatively to being asked to shoot German-cultured and German-speaking Jewish civilians from their own country.
It created such a problem that the acculturation of “special” troops for this purpose and their training/recruiting became a imperative for the rest of the war.
Creating the “other” became the Nazi tactic, and once you have done so (‘Devils’ “Judenrat”), the killing of defenceless civilians is far easier from that point on..
Geoff,
You said: “Yes, the 3 month old infant canaanite baby ‘hated Israel’, which is why they were mass murdered and that infant
got what he deserved.. You have a truly sick mind. You realize this was the exact SAME Nazi ideology and thought process-
a surviving race-enemy – even a infant – could only cause them harm as a adult, so get rid of it now.”
From your vantage point in a 21st century Western nation, it does indeed seem like a monstrous evil. But it is not even legitimate to judge the Israelites, let alone judge God. An infant from the Canaanite culture was indeed better off in Paradise in “the bosom of Abraham” than being raised by Canaanites. There is a fate worse than death for an innocent child. The depravity of the Middle Eastern pagans was notorious even among the Greeks and Romans. That is why God caused the Canaanites to be “vomited out of the Land”.
Assyrians are christian, ever read the story of Jona you ingnorant twat!
Skizzem, you said:”Assyrians are christian, ever read the story of Jona you ingnorant twat!”
I suggest you brush up on your history, Skizzem—it is you who are ignorant. The Assyrians were never “Christian”. The Church did not exist until approximately 700 years later. Even Nineveh (the captial of the Assyrian Empire) did not stay repentant for long after Jonah’s preaching. Jonah was a prophet in Israel from approximately 785–760 B.C. The Assyrian conquests of the Ten Northern tribes of Israel began in approximately 740 B.C.—at least twenty years later.
Syria is part of what was once the Assyrian Empire today—its people are descended from the Assyrians among other people groups. Syria is today overwhelmingly Islamic (87%) and there is a great deal of persecution of the tiny (10% or less) Christian minority.
By the way, if you want to be taken seriously, I also suggest that you refrain from calling people evil names. Jesus said that the evil in one’s heart is reflected in their speech—this would go for what is written as well.
Jeoff,
Who are you to judge what God ordered to take place? God ordered the Israelites to slay the people of Canaan for the reason that they were polluting the Land with their filthy practices. The Jews in Europe were innocent of any debauchery. Europeans, because of the evil in their hearts, murdered the Jewish people. There is a vast difference.
Amen Ellen…Who are these that judge the Lord of Glory?? Are they without sin? HE is ! They need to read Job 38, 39, 40, 41, 42 and then ..shut their mouths for ‘Shame’…and Ask God to forgive them for their childish behavior that is bred among the Children of Darkness!
Quote-
“Who are you to judge what God ordered to take place? God ordered the Israelites to slay the people of Canaan for the reason that they were polluting the Land with their filthy practices.”
“The Jews in Europe were innocent ”
Yeah, I am more than comfortable as a Christian saying that the Torah/O.T. is not scripturally central to any Christian and is IMPERFECT- because it strays from what Jesus preached to Christians.
The only thing that matters and is central to CHRISTIANS is the words in RED in your N.T. Those are the literal commands and words of Jesus.
Jesus challenged the Pharisees, and commanded the opposite of the Pharisees and traditional Judaism-
A)”Love thy Neighbor” = christianity
B)”Murder your neighbors infant and rape its teen sister in captivity” = traditional Judaism
As a Christian I can comfortably say that chalking up mass murder to the alleged command of a just god is clearly MAN’S excuse to justify the act- not a command from a just god.
In the time of the Torah/NT Jesus himself is threatened multiple times with being stoned as a heretic in Jewish communities, and in many cases he turns the Torah/OT back on them,
with their own fallacies it contains,
in order to confound those accusing him of being a heretic and threatening to stone him-
“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (From the NIV Bible, John 10:34-36)”
The Torah is a interesting history, and gives a historical understanding of the world as it existed in that region back into ancient times but it is not literal fact, and its recorded by sinful humans to serve their own purposes and own gain.
Accepting that the CHRISTIAN god thinks it was ok to mass murder all males and mothers of people whose land you covet, sexually enslave young females, etc.. is nonsense.
This does not impeach Christianity, since the Torah is not the the founding document of Christianity, but it explains some of the reasons that Jewish populations have generally seen their own self-interests as being paramount leading every other population to kick them out, or try to kick them out of their countries at one or more times throughout history..
______________________________
Quote-
Andrea says:
“Amen Ellen…Who are these that judge the Lord of Glory?? Are they without sin? HE is ! They need to read Job 38, 39, 40, 41, 42”
Once again, as a Christian, going by the words of MY saviour,
I am MORE than comfortable telling you that if you seriously need someone to tell you that a all-powerful and just god, who created us all, does not need or order one tribe to mass murder their neighbors, take all their stuff, kill their babies and toddlers and mass rape any young girls amongst them..
then there is little hope for you. A God all powerful god who wanted these things is more than able to foresee that he is going to settle this certain tribe at a specific place in the future and reserve it for them.
God does not make mistakes. Humans do.
The Torah is not one single document written or dictated by by God.
Its written by fallible and in some cases very evil and nasty (King David) humans, who engaged in all sort of justification to gain things they coveted or wished to take possession of what others had and like David Koresh or Joseph Smith in modern times,
The easy way to justify this devious and evil action is to pin it on “GOD TOLD ME TO”.
It is NOT incumbent upon me as a CHRISTIAN to prove/disprove or defend the Torah.
The Torah is a ancient document with a lot of factual notations that can be archeologically confirmed, but the actions justified or proclaimed as “gods will” do not comport with eihter decency, mercy, justice, kindness or any other hallmark of Christianity.
It is not central to Christianity or up to Christians to justify vile acts because someone in 2000 B.C.E. wanted their neighbors land, homes and daughters.
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Andrea says:
April 12, 2012 at 4:23 pm
“2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”
______________________
Two huge problems with your attempt here.
1) First, that we THINK that (2nd timothy) was written by the Apostle Paul.. we do not actually know WHO wrote that letter, factually.
The Apostle Paul never met Jesus, was not a disciple of Jesus, and was never predicted by Jesus, even if he was in fact the author of this passage.
What matters to Christians are the words IN RED in the N.T.
They are the recorded words and teachings of JESUS as conveyed by his direct apostles. Anything that conflicts with these teachings is not a Christian doctrine. It may be Judaic or a Ancient text, Coptic, Arian.. etc..
but if it conflicts with the words in RED, its not Christian doctrine.
So.. the caution of all “scripture” being inspired is written by someone who came long after Jesus’ death at best, and at worst we dont really know who penned this book.
2) Second, even if we take this scripture for the moment as a inspired passage, it advises that scripture is INSPIRED by God, it does not say that all ancient text is faultless in its literal conclusions or meaning.
If so,
then taking Psalms 82 -LITERALLY- as gods inspired fact as you suggest, we would be negating the core principle of Christianity-
Psalm 82:6- “I said, You are gods”
Obviously, everyone is not a God.. we are not ‘gods’ and if you take literally everything that is written in the old or new testament as being what you LITERALLY read it to say, or accept that when a scribe attested to it being “gods will” to abduct and mass rape every teen canaanite female..
you are going to be exactly where you are right now, suggesting that every phrase transcribed by humans is literal fact in its entirety, as opposed to what Paul (possibly) is writing in the verse you cite, which is that the story or turn of event is part of the historical narrative and useful in that way,
but even Paul (or whoever wrote 2Timothy) does not say in that verse that every literal human claim is to be taken as complete and LITERAL fact.
Andrea
hello and greetings
You quoted from paul’s letter to timothy
All scripture is given by inspiration of God….
When Paul wrote those words the only scripture that was in existence was the old testament. It is the old testament that proves our doctrine,and corrects us and instructs us. These words in Pauls letter do not speak for I believe new testament teachings. The new testament confirms to reality all that was spoken or written by the prophets from the old testament The old testament came to fullfillment when Jesus came.Just look at all the old testament quotes that are cited in the new testament as a fullfillment of what was written or spoke from OT prophets.
Thats why the new covenant was established with Israel,because God said it was going to happen. Israels sin was atoned for because God spoke it through the prophets that it would take place. God put an end to sin as Daniel said would happen. The new testament writer of Hebrews confirmed that an end was put to sin by the sacrifice of Jesus. The New testament writings are fulfillment of so many old testament prohets.
Todd writes-
“When Paul wrote those words the only scripture that was in existence was the old testament. It is the old testament that proves our doctrine,and corrects us and instructs us.”
“These words in Pauls letter do not speak for I believe new testament teachings.”
________________________
We have no actual knowledge who wrote 2 Timothy, or how many people may have written and edited it over millenia, so its not truthful to say “Pauls letter”. You are making a assumption and in any event Paul is not Jesus or even a first-hand Disciple of Jesus.
The Jewish OT / Talmud does not beginning to codify until around Josephus, who lived 37-100 A.D.
Josephus was a direct descendant of temple priests, and wrote that the Torah consists of 22 / TWENTY TWO BOOKS, in around 90 A.D.
The current Jewish Torah in use consists of 24 / TWENTY FOUR BOOKS, and many of the texts in the Masoretic-derived Judaic texts do not agree with Qumran cave texts from ancient times.
The Qumran ancient cave texts are closer to the intermediary Koine Greek Texts than the current Masoretic Torah version
Psalms in the ancient Qumran cave O.T. texts have 8 entire Psalms that are missing in modern Masoretic Judaic Psalms version.
The OT is not fixed in its current present form until around 200 A.D., which is LONG AFTER the New Testament books are all written.
“The first reference to a 24-book Jewish canon is found in 2 Esdras 14:45–46, which was probably written in the first half of the 2nd century CE:
Make public the twenty-four books that you wrote first, and let the worthy and the unworthy read them; but keep the seventy that were written last, in order to give them to the wise among your people.”
The OT is not ONE cohesive ancient record, its a outline created and added/subtracted to/from by humans, which today, currently, is actually closer to the current Medieval Jewish text than it is to the B.C./Qumran Cave O.T. documents.
What matters to Christians is the word and direction of CHRIST in the NT that came from is direct disciples.
The problem with that is, there are a lot of people who want mystical prophecies, special revelations that are hidden in some abstract verse.. and that is what attracts them.
The words of Jesus are very clear and non-mystical and tell you to act morally and treat others fairly.
The Torah is a historical and old record of the acts of humans in relation to their lives and religion but because someone in 2000 b.c. suggested that god directed him to mass rape the teen daughters of the neighbors they murdered does not make it any more the will of a just god than it would if David Koresh or Joseph Smith said that god told it to them..
It is humans creating and making a justification for their acts. a Christian needs to make no such justifications because the commands of our god would never permit or authorize such conduct.
Geoff
greetings and peace
you said; You are making a assumption and in any event Paul is not Jesus or even a first-hand Disciple of Jesus.
My comment:
You assert that Paul’s teaching and or writings are not inspired or not to be trusted because he did not walk with Jesus or live when Jesus was here or even a first hand Disciple
Consider the words of Peter who did live with and walk with and saw and heard and was chosen by Jesus to be one of his disciples. ll Peter 3:15,16 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.16.He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Peter who was one of the twelve was in agreement with Paul.
He said he wrote with the wisdom that God gave him. Paul’s writings were inspired
Quote-
“Up to 1979, Israel was one of the largest buyer of Iranian oil and gas.”
Ummm… the part you are leaving out is that up til 1979, the Iranian people were captive to a DICTATOR who was literally placed in power and kept in power over them deliberately with weapons and cash from the USA., FOR THE PURPOSES OF GETTING EASY ACCESS TO THAT OIL AND FORCING A MIDDLE EASTERN STATE TO PLAY NICE WITH ISRAEL.
And.. since the USA federal elected officials in both the Democrat and Repub parties are puppets of Israel..
Israel was effectively directing a puppet dictator controlled by another of its puppets, in oppressing the Iranian people under their puppet Shah dictator who promised to play nice with Israel, and give delicious oil to Israel, while brutally treating Iran’s enslaved population.
This was exactly the same deal in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Tunisia, and attempted still underway in Iraq and Afghanistan..
If left alone, these countries would elect their own govts, or tribal strong men to power, who would almost all be hostile to Israel, so the policy of subverting these nations peoples’ internally and placing these nations under paid puppet dictator’s to brutally ensure they cannot get in Israel’s way or refuse to COMPLY WITH ISRAELS DEMANDS OR ISRAELS WILL, has been going on for decades now.
The reason Israel got all that Iranian oil “up til 1979” was that a puppet govt by the dictator Shah ran the country and was told to do what ISRAEL wanted.
THAT IS THE REALITY… Your nonsense is fiction. If you enslave people they will rightly hate you and eventually you will lose control at some point and they will rise up and smite you.
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
The US receives 25 per cent of its oil from the Islamic totalitarian dictatorship of Saudi Arabia.
Why put your finger at Israel?
thank you sir and shalom back to you.
I would say you are deflecting my point into another argument, since its not possible to refute what is in fact true.
I have no hostility to a free and peaceful Israel or USA, and I am a american, but neither the USA of Israel is going to be free or peaceful by constantly trying to “rig” other countries internally,
and that is what causes escalation and ‘blowback’.
While letting others decide their own path is scary, the reality is the Sunnis and Shia will, if left to their own devices, act as one anothers own worst enemies.
Attempting to intervene using puppets, bribes, weapons, plots etc..
angers us americans who are forced into such conflicts that do no relate to us, it jeopardizes Israelis who will be target #1 once these populations get their dictator overthrown, and-
its simply a short term INEFFECTIVE solution, to a long term problem.
Grass is correct in that the current strategy of scheming intervention and force is what has led to the current state of affairs,
and those proposing MORE scheming intervention and force will be as INEFFECTIVE as before. This is the same song that was played going back to WW1 of a punitive, vindictive Versailles edict, that only could serve to guarantee the eventual WW2.
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
Do you have a car?
How much are you willing to pay at the petrol pump?
Please do not become a hypocrite, and blame Israel. It has not put in any puppet regime anywhere. It is a state with the size of Greater New York, the only state where the Jews live in majority.
When the Arab League enforced an oil embargo on Israel from 1950 onwards, Israel needed help from other oil exporters in the region. The US friendly Shah of Iran was willing to help Israel. His regime was bad. But if we are going to import oil from only the good guy’s, you will be forced to walk.
“Shalom.
Do you have a car?
How much are you willing to pay at the petrol pump?”
____________________
Shalom again Ivar.
Once last reply and then I must be on my way.
My oil cost is a factor of SPECULATION, and that SPECULATION is being driven right now-
1)Worthless, pure speculators/NON-producers
2) by Israel fearing a second state in its sphere of influence gaining a Nuclear Weapon.
None of my oil in the central USA comes from the middle east region – most comes from Canada, USA, Mexico, and South America.. in about that order.
To drop my gas / fuel prices through the basement all it would take overnight is a war on speculation by third parties who do NOT take delivery of the oil they “purchase”. This would also crash “contributions” to the elected officials in the two corrupted parties, who want bribes disguised as PAC money from these trans-national speculators.
The Goldman Sachs speculator class who are being allowed to tie regional oil supplies, MUCH OF WHICH IS TAKEN OFF OF USA PUBLIC LANDS, into global oil cartels,
along with Israelis agitating for a war on Iran that they themselves will not actually undertake with their own men, money, and weapons..
IS WHY I am paying close to 5 bucks a gallon for gas.
Geoff, you said:
“Yeah, I am more than comfortable as a Christian saying that the Torah/O.T. is not scripturally central to any Christian and is
IMPERFECT- because it strays from what Jesus preached to
Christians. The only thing that matters and is central to CHRISTIANS is the words in RED in your N.T. Those are the literal commands and words of Jesus.
Jesus challenged the Pharisees, and commanded the opposite of the Pharisees and traditional Judaism-”
I beg to differ—the Old Testament is inseparable from the New Testament, in the life of the believer. While the OT is not “To” us, it is “For” us. It demonstrates God’s long-suffering patience with and His passionate love for His people.
The NT is just as much a Jewish book as is the OT. Jesus Himself said, “Salvation is from the Jews.” In referring to the OT, He said “the Scriptures cannot be broken”. I believe that the OT is inspired and you do not. If you love Jesus, you will love His kindred. God has a plan for them—“all Israel will be saved”.
Ellen-
“I believe that the OT is inspired and you do not. If you love Jesus, you will love His kindred. God has a plan for them—”
Judaism is not Christianity.
While Judaism conditions treatment of others based on whether or not that ‘other’ meets the rabbinical definition of ‘Jewish’, and Judaism actively DIS-courages converts and does NO RECRUITING or missionary work..when conversion is allowed it is from primarily wealthy, prominent or well-connected few.
Christianity specifically disallows/prohibits treating a Christian any different than any other person. Christianity actively seeks to convert and minister to everyone, especially the weakest and most in need.
As shown in the tale of the good Samaritan, in which Jesus uses a parable to teach his contemorary Jews that Samaritans or other Non-Jews are to be treated as equals,
EVERYONE is “HIS KINDRED”. The Samaritan, as well as the Jew. This nonsense of ‘jews/kindred’ is especially ridiculous in light of modern DNA evidence.
Most American Jews + the controlling force behind the modern state of Israel are pink-skinned, european Ashkenazic Jews.
over 2/3 of “Levites” are DNA tested to be in Hg R1a-
(Levite status under biblical doctrine can ONLY be based by blood birth from Levite father to son- Levi,Levin,Leavitt etc..) …
Many other Levites are Hg G, Q, I, or R1b, which are all from very different ethnic paternal lines NONE of which are Semitic in origin and none of which are related to one another.
The problem is, Hg R1a Y-dna and the rest of these Hg is, they are not a component of any Semite population-
they are not related to Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, or even semite arabs.
R1a is 65-70% of SLAVIC east european males, as well as many steppe populations (such as found in ancient Khazaria).
Thus, suggesting a special KINDRED ancient blood continuity is particularly nonsensical when you consider that the second highest priestly class of Judaism in modern times consists overwhelmingly of R1a males descended not from Levites, but from Slavs and Khazars from the steppe.
Trying to support the Torah as being LITERAL god-dicated fact is not the job of Christian and you will fail or lie to yourself if you try to do so. The “KINDRED” that Jesus spoke of included even a Roman pagan who was guarding his cross as he was crucified.
Jesus did not have a ethnic preference or elite list as he ministered to even prostitutes, lepers, and pagans,
although the Jewish Pharisee absolutely DID choose only their own elite and special class that were worthy.
Not much has changed over a few thousand years in that last regard.
Ellen-
“So-called “liberal” Christians are a malodorous blot on the fabric of the Bride’s wedding dress. It is being cleansed from the Bride’s skirts even now. You should take your poison elsewhere.”
“Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.”
Ellen, I am afraid to have to point out that you are the one calling entire groups of humans that you do not even know “sons of devils”, you condone war, attacks, force, call others “poison”, “malodorous” none of which Jesus did, or ever instructed his followers..
So, while you are following someone or something, your venom in your words betray that you are not in my opinion following the commandments of Jesus.
“Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
Your words are sharp thistles, not grapes or figs
Geoff,
You said: “Ellen, I am afraid to have to point out that you are the one calling entire groups of humans that you do not even
know “sons of devils”, you condone war, attacks, force, call others “poison”, “malodorous” none of which Jesus did, or ever instructed his followers..”
*Ellen says sweetly*—No, John the Baptist (and Jesus) just called certain men, “A brood of vipers” and Jesus always commended John the Baptist. The Apostle Paul wished that his Judaizing antagonists would “mutilate (castrate) themselves” (Galatians 5:12) Now, I suppose you will deflect my argument by telling me that “…we don’t even know who wrote the Book of Galatians.” Not intended to be “venom” just plain speech to one who appears to be an enemy of the Gospel. I never said that YOU were malodorous nor did I say that YOU were poison. If you read my remarks in context, you will see that I was describing your writing as poison.
Geoff,
You said: “Ellen, I am afraid to have to point out that you are the one calling entire groups of humans that you do not even
know “sons of devils”, you condone war, attacks, force…”
That is a lie. If you will look at my words, I never once called anyone “sons of devils” nor did I ever “…condone war, attacks, force…” Lies come from where, Geoff?
Geoff,
You said: “Most American Jews + the controlling force behind the modern state of Israel are pink-skinned, european Ashkenazic
Jews.
over 2/3 of “Levites” are DNA tested to be in Hg R1a-
(Levite status under biblical doctrine can ONLY be based by blood birth from Levite father to son- Levi,Levin,Leavitt etc..) …
Many other Levites are Hg G, Q, I, or R1b, which are all from very different ethnic paternal lines NONE of which are Semitic in origin and none of which are related to one another.
The problem is, Hg R1a Y-dna and the rest of these Hg is, they are not a component of any Semite population-
they are not related to Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, or even semite arabs.
R1a is 65-70% of SLAVIC east european males, as well as many steppe populations (such as found in ancient Khazaria).”
If you are trying to go with the old canard that Ashkenazi Jews are not really Jews (and thus not entitled to the Holy Land) you should research it a little better. Just because they are not closedly related genetically to the Mizrahi Jews or the Sephardic Jews doesn’t mean that they are not descended from ancient Israel. Most scholars (genetic, linguistic, etc) agree that the Ashkenazi Jews have their origins in the Middle East. Perhaps they are descended from one or more of the Ten Lost Tribes which would make them technically not Jewish but Israelite. If so, that would be exciting because it would mean that much that Ezekiel prophesied is coming to pass.
Geoff,
You said: “Thus, suggesting a special KINDRED ancient blood continuity is particularly nonsensical when you consider that the
second highest priestly class of Judaism in modern times consists
overwhelmingly of R1a males descended not from Levites, but from Slavs and Khazars from the steppe.”
What you have said is just not that simple a matter. Those who make it their business to do genetic testing for the purpose of ascertaining priestly bloodlines, feel quite confident that there is a specific gene that only Levitical descendants carry. They have found many of those males in the Jewish population FROM ALL THE VARIOUS SUB-GROUPS. Yours is a more sophisticated Jew-hatred, but it is Jew-hatred nonetheless.
Ellen-
“What you have said is just not that simple a matter. Those who make it their business to do genetic testing for the purpose of ascertaining priestly bloodlines, feel quite confident that there is a specific gene that only Levitical descendants carry.
Yours is a more sophisticated Jew-hatred, but it is Jew-hatred nonetheless.”
You are also incorrect here Ellen, I am sorry to tell you.
The Levite males have no specific dominant gene beyond R1a, and R1a is exactly the dominant Hg for all the vast majority of males in the slavic/khazar regions of eastern europe that most Askenazic came from.
The “gene” that I think you are talking about (DNA STR actually..) does not relate to Levites. It relates to Cohanim.
A Cohen Modal Ht within the J2 (semite) haplogroup, specifically.
The same J2 CMH is also found amongst many Arabian, Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian males.. so while it is clearly semitic, its not actually what it was originailly marketed as (being a genetic marker of Cohen preists)
When you get a answer you want, you are open and agreeable to such a genetic conclusion, but when the genetic facts do NOT agree with you, you begin with angry, mean-spirited words and slurs..
Just honest decent people are not afraid of the truth, they are instead afraid of being misinformed.
The Khazar Kingdom was a superpower at the collapse of the Hunnic empire. It was a trading cross-roads for silk road trade and very rich. Groups of Jews migrated to Khazaria in the same way they migrated to Italy, Germany etc.. to profit off of those countries trade.
The Khazars adopted Judaism and many Ashkenazim are descended in majority or in part from Khazars. It seems from the DNA results of modern eastern Ashkenazim that most modern “Levites” are steppe Khazar converts.
The fact that this group ‘joined’ Judaism after the split between Mizrahi and Sephardi from Ashkenazim explains why a steppe-specific Hg is found in eastern european Jews, while those who did not go out to the eastern steppes and adopt converts from the local population do not have any R1a males.
Mizrahi and Sephardi are much closer to one another.
Also, one of every three (33%) of modern Ashkenazim females are in MTdna Hg ‘K’, which is almost absent in the other non-Ashkenazim jewish populations.
Hg K is almost absent from middle east semites,
but it is not unusual in modern Georgians/Caucusus female populations which is also a good indicator that large portions (exceeding 1 of every 3 jewish females in Ashkenazic populations) are also descended from non-semite steppe populations that came out of Khazarian conversions.
While some or even most of these Ydna R1a/ Mtdna K Ashkenazic people probably do have some collateral line semite/middle eastern ancestry, large parts of this population which is larger than all other jewish populations combined,
do not originate from a semitic population and we can confirm that with Y/MT dna.
The fact remains that, despite YOUR “genetic” evidence, other geneticists (Israeli and otherwise) believe that the claims of Ashkenazi Jews are valid.
Geoff,
You said,”Just honest decent people are not afraid of the truth, they are instead afraid of being misinformed.”
Now, who’s casting aspersions? Just because you say it is the truth doesn’t make it so. There are many liars who would love to see Israel destroyed. Science is not what it used to be—it has been corrupted to the point that it is used as political amunition.
Dear Geoff,
I’m not a professional geneticist, but I was interested knowing where you are getting your information from regarding the DNA studies you site? Do you have a link?
You said:
“The Levite males have no specific dominant gene beyond R1a, and R1a is exactly the dominant Hg for all the vast majority of males in the slavic/khazar regions of eastern europe that most Askenazic came from.”
In the second study published on the Cohanim, researchers reported that despite a priori expectations, Jews who identified themselves as Levites did not share a common set of markers with the Cohanim (Thomas et al. 1998). Unfortunately, the reporting that the Levites did not share a genetic signature from a common patrilineal ancestor with the Cohanim flew in the face of Jewish tradition. This led to some rather bizarre and disparaging explanations, like the following from Rabbi Yaakov Kleiman (1999) in Jewish Action:
It is interesting to note that the tribe of Levi has a history of lack of quantity…After the Babylonian exile, the Levi’im (plural) failed to return en masse to Jerusalem, though urged by Ezra the Scribe to do so (They were therefore fined by losing their exclusive rights to maser.). Though statistically, the Levi’im should be more numerous than Cohanim, in synagogues today it is not unusual to have a minyan with a surplus of Cohanim, yet not one Levi.
In point of fact, the Levites were shown to have a common set of genetic markers – just not the CMH. These markers were not even part of the same J1 haplogroup as found in the Cohanim. The majority of Levites shared a common haplotype, indicating a shared common ancestor among them, but this haplotype occurred within haplogroup R1a and, more specifically, within subgroup R1a1. Furthermore, this haplogroup was found only in the Ashkenazi Levites; it was not shared with the Sephardic Levite population in the same fashion as the CMH. Given the fact that the Ashkenazi Levites did not share R1a with their Sephardic counterparts, it appeared that this haplogroup had entered the Jewish population sometime during the Diaspora.
In one of the first studies to closely examine the high levels of R1a among Levites, researchers found that R1al formed a “tight cluster” within the Ashkenazi Levites (Behar et al. 2003). This suggested to the researchers a very recent origin of this group from a single common ancestor (Behar et al. 2003).
In a subsequent Levite study, the modal haplotype reported for Ashkenazi R1a1, known as “H6,” was reported to occur twice as often as the second most common R1a1 haplotype among Ashkenazim, known as “H10” (Nebel et al. 2005). Out of a sample of 55 individuals, 25 had haplotype “H6” and 12 had haplotype “H10” (Nebel et al. 2005, Supplementary Material).
http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.htm
Geoff,
Can you please comment on this? Thanks.
“A team of geneticists studying the ancestry of Jewish communities has found an unusual genetic signature that occurs in more than half the Levites of Ashkenazi descent. … The genetic signature occurs on the male or Y chromosome and
comes from a few men, or perhaps a single ancestor, who lived
about 1,000 years ago…
The new report, published in the current issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics, was prepared by population geneticists in Israel, the United States and England… They say that 52 percent of Levites of Ashkenazi origin have a particular genetic signature that originated in Central Asia, although it is also found less frequently in the Middle East.
The ancestor who introduced it into the Ashkenazi Levites could perhaps have been from the Khazars, a Turkic tribe whose king converted to Judaism in the eighth or ninth century, the researchers suggest.
Their reasoning is that the signature, a set of DNA variations known as R1a1, is common in the region north of Georgia that was once occupied by the Khazar kingdom. The signature did reach the Near East, probably before the founding of the Jewish community, but it is still rare there. …
The present descendants of the Khazars have not been identified. … If the patrilineal descent of the two priestly castes had indeed been followed as tradition describes, then… all Levites [should be descended] from Levi, the third son of the patriarch Jacob. …
But the picture among the Levites was less clear, suggesting that they had a mixed ancestry. Dr. Hammer and Dr. Skorecki returned to the puzzle for their new report, based on data gathered from nearly 1,000 men of Ashkenazi and Sephardi origin and neighboring non-Jewish populations. … The paternal ancestry of the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Levites is different, unlike the Cohanim from the two branches…”
http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-cohen-levite.html
Geoff,
You said: “but even Paul (or whoever wrote 2Timothy) does not say in that verse that every literal human claim is to be taken as complete and LITERAL fact.”
But you know that we believe that a literal hermeneutic is the correct one. All prophesied events from the past have come literally true—there is no reason to believe that they will not see literal fulfillment in the future. You are the one who is out of step here. That combined with your antipathy toward the Chosen People of God suggest that you are not interested in anything but being destructive. So-called “liberal” Christians are a malodorous blot on the fabric of the Bride’s wedding dress. It is being cleansed from the Bride’s skirts even now. You should take your poison elsewhere.
p.s. One last thing, Geoff. Had you done any amount of independent research, instead of relying on anti-Israel screeds, you would have come across something like this:
“Although the historical record is very limited, there is a scholarly consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the
Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. Jews have lived in Germany, or “Ashkenaz”, AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 4th CENTURY [emphasis mine]. They brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. Yiddish, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is a Germanic language that developed from the Middle High German vernacular, WRITTEN WITH HEBREW CHARACTERS, AND HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY HEBREW AND ARAMAIC.” Again, with my emphasis.
Ellen-
““Although the historical record is very limited, there is a scholarly consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the
Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. Jews have lived in Germany, or “Ashkenaz”, AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 4th CENTURY [emphasis mine]. They brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. Yiddish, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is a Germanic language that developed from the Middle High German vernacular, WRITTEN WITH HEBREW CHARACTERS, AND HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY HEBREW AND ARAMAIC.”
______________________________
I am writing you in latin letters, and using the english language, but that does not mean that either of us is of either Latin or Brythonic genetic descent. It often only means we adopted it at a specific point when it became a lingua franca and of benefit to us.
Millions of more people, daily, write in Latin characters and using the english language who are in no way biologically descended from the ancestral population that created that particular alphabet/language that those who write using these language and alphabet systems who are descended biologically from the original source population.
Weak argument, Geoff. Aramaic was a Middle Eastern lingua franca but Hebrew NEVER was. It wasn’t even used in daily life for the vast majority of Jews after the fall of the Temple in 70 A.D. After that point, Mishnaic Hebrew was used—primarily for written work rather than being a spoken language. That is the miracle of modern Hebrew. Never has a language revived from being essentially a dead language for several thousand years.
Ellen, I am not interested in inciting some rage from you. After losing you other assertions, you seem to have turned to linguistics to continue some rage-filled fight.
Very few Jews in the european diasapora were literate in anything but Yiddish or the language of the population in the state in which they resided.
Hebrew is a ‘reconstructed’ language that was not used from 300 A.D onward.
Yiddish in totality has far more content/structure from germanic or slavic (and other) languages than from vestigial Hebrew and it is functionally mutually intelligible with german, while it is not mutually intelligible with modern or biblical Hebrew..
So, if this was to be your smoking gun to show continuous usage and continuous un-interrupted genetic lineage, you again, are wrong here.
Portions of Jewish culture and Linguistics are present in the Jewish Khazarian diaspora because Khazaria adopted “Judaism” as its state religion at a time when Jews within the state of Khazaria were in high positions of power and influence, and Islam was competing with Christianity for control of the holy lands and the population centers of Asia/Asia Minor.
The Khazarian plan seems to have been to become a ‘Jewish’ religious state, and thus be able to avoid involvement in these conflicts or fall under the dominion of these powers.. it did not work, needless to say.
Much of the eastern Jewish “diaspora” is not actually a diaspora.. Its ancestors were a eastern steppe population in western asia that fell under the control of Jewish traders and adopted their culture and religous practices and is genetically a separate population. Some collateral line or partial semite admixture from the Semite traders who did migrate to Khazaria can be DNA confirmed, but it is often a small portion of the ancestry as can be shown by most of the Askenazic Levite class being non-semites at this point.
ALSO, Since much of Khazaria was eventually conquered by Islam, we do not actually know for certain if the portion of J2 Hg Khazarian Ashkenazic males are actually descended from a semite Jew or a semite Arab muslim,
since both would have been in positions of power in the same area, and both would have the same Semite Hg.
reply to Geoff…You said…”The Apostle Paul never met Jesus,..”
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks. (He not only met Him the scriptures show he met and talked with him several times. I won’t go into all the verses, I don’t think you’d accept this one either, but it is a scripture showing you that Paul ‘did in fact’ meet Jesus and Jesus talked with him.
You know as well as I do andrea that Paul never met or associated in any way with physical Jesus.
The phrase you present is the Apostle Paul claiming that a super-natural Jesus came to him and identified himself verbally as a super-natural being.
What is certain is that Paul is the most prominent of early christian missionaries to the Gentiles.
That said, the word of Paul is second to the words of Jesus as recorded to the apostles who had daily person interaction with the physical Jesus. Christianity is not based on the “revelations” of Paul.
Its based on the teachings of Jesus.
“Paul’s influence on Christian thinking arguably has been more significant than any other New Testament author.[6] Paul declared that faith in Christ made the Torah unnecessary for salvation, exalted the Christian church as the body of Christ, and depicted the world outside the Church as under judgment.[15]”
While the Apostle Paul is a missionary, he never met Jesus and was not a disciple or present when Jesus walked the earth
Geoff,
You said: “Christianity is not based on the “revelations” of Paul.
Its based on the teachings of Jesus.”
Wrong, Geoff. That would be a philosophy, not faith. You could just as easily follow the teachings of “the Buddha” even though Buddhism does not teach about a “god”.
The true faith—“that which was once delivered to the saints” is based on the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah, Our Savior. If you do not believe this, you are still dead in your sins and at the end of your natural life, you will go to hell, unless you repent of this terrible sin of treading on the Blood of Christ. It is also grave sin to attempt to destroy the faith of others. You might want to reconsider. It would be truly wise to meditate on this passage and repent:
“But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They
know the truth about God because He has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship Him as God or even give Him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.” (Romans 1:18-22)
Geoff,
You said:
“Yeah, I am more than comfortable as a Christian saying that the Torah/O.T. is not scriptural central to any Christian and is IMPERFECT- because it strays from what Jesus preached to Christians. The only thing that matters and is central to CHRISTIANS is the words in RED in your N.T. Those are the literal commands and words of Jesus. Jesus challenged the Pharisees, and commanded the opposite of the Pharisees and traditional Judaism.”
Geoff, you are what is referrer to as a “Red Letter Christian” — one who is committed to following only the words of Jesus while discarding the rest of the Bible. This amounts to nothing more than the religion of the New Age (and soon to merge with the One World Religion). Vague concepts such as compassion, caring, giving, peace-loving, forgiving, human rights, etc. have replaced the REAL GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. This is a dangerous deception, for even those who believe and practice the occult, will quote the word’s of Jesus. You are clearly not a true follower of Christ at all. In fact, your own words have denied that Jesus Christ is God. “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (II Timothy 3:16). You have exposed backhandedly who you really are and your antisemitism is glarringly bright.
I agree with Ellen that you are wrong about Paul’s epistles. They ARE the words that Jesus presented to the church. His words are the commandments of the Lord. “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor 14:37).
______
“Dividing Scripture by the words written in red is a serious error. It is the same error as those who place the words of the New Testament over those of the Old Testament. All Scripture is equally inspired and to be used by the Christian in developing their relationship with Jesus Christ and expanding the Kingdom of God.
“Jesus showed that He believed in both the history and the inspiration of the Old Testament for He based His belief that He would rise from the dead after three days on the account of Jonah. He must have had incredible faith in the Old Testament to “risk” His life on the cross in the belief that He would be raised from the dead.
“Notice that after the resurrection, Jesus did not simply explain with words written in red what had happened. Jesus went to what He accepted as the divinely inspired Old Testament to prove what He was saying. Jesus used the authority of what was written in the Old Testament to establish what He had accomplished. To act as if the Old Testament or other parts of the New Testament are “second class” or unimportant because they have no red letters is to treat them in the opposite way Jesus Himself treated them.
“When handling the temptations of Satan at the beginning of His ministry, before He had done any teaching personally, He referred to the entire Old Testament as the Word of God.
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matt. 4:4) *written in red*.
http://www.free-bible-study-lessons.com/written-in-red.html
Dear JM.
Shalom.
I have spammed the latest booklets of Geoff Greaves.
Please forgive me, if you were planning to comments on his comments. But his latest two comments were 180 lines long, and had a couple of hundred points. It was therefore pointless to let him continue to break the instructions from the moderators.
Please make short comments, and do debate on the concerned topics related to the published articles.
I gave you but “one” scripture and you refused to believe it. That’s your preogative, I did not come in here to argue, debate and/or rant empty knowledge to sound noteable or any such stuff that has no power to save the lost and foolish. Who lift up their ownselves
rather than Jesus Christ. I come only to share and reap from my brethren born of HIM who is forever GOD. I will not ”cast another scripture” before you to add to your denying the Truth The Word of God is. You weigh too much already to add to your doubt and unbelief of His Word. I truly feel sorry for have a great fear for your mortal soul. Geoff before God I speak, and you have chosen to denounce The Word I sent to you. You’re like the Man who rode the Donkey around the World. He knows everything, yet he don’t know how to get off the Dumb Ass Stubborn he is riding, so he continues to this day spewing distorted words to convince people how important he is. May God help you, before it is too late! Stubborness is like Witchcraft To God!
Geoff,
You said: “Ellen, I am not interested in inciting some rage from you. After losing you other assertions, you seem to have turned to linguistics to continue some rage-filled fight.”
I can assure you that I am not in the least bit angry, let alone “rage-filled”. Your announcement of your “win” aside, I do not accept anything you have to say about anything as your “evidence” obviously serves your political views. I do not accept that Ashkenazi Jews are Gentile Khazarians and what is more important neither do the people that matter—the people of Israel, their governing authorities and scientists who accept that the Ashkenazi are indeed descendants of the Children of Israel. You will not want to be numbered among the enemies of Israel in the days ahead.
Dear Ellen.
Shalom.
Geoff, did not come on this site to debate. He is not a truth seeker, but a truth mocker. Chose wisely whom to debate with. Do not entertain people who try to defame or demonize true followers of Jesus the Messiah, and is absolutely not interested in our messages.
Jesus said that He would put in front of us open and closed doors. Do not try to brake into closed doors. Do not waist energy on people with closed hearts and minds.
Ivar
Greetings and peace
Your evaluation of Geoff is quite accurate
You are a good watchman for your site.
I am in agreement
I agree, Ivar. I have seen his type of arrogance many times before on other Christian forums. I have not enountered “red letter christians” in the past before though. I thought he was a “liberal” Christian. I was raised in a “liberal” church and thought of myself as a Christian before I got saved and discovered that the Bible contains all the Truth we need for salvation and godliness. I thought there might be some hope for Geoff.
Ivar.. I think the problem is, I debate a little to well on the points and you have no answer for them but to call me anti-semite and threaten me with hellfires.
I will be gone after this post. To clarify breifly two points, one since removed, and one never allowed in quick synopsis-
1) I posted all the links to the genetics studies, most involving or carried out by Jewish academics, that prove the Khazarian R1a introgression that I was challenged to post. While Ivar is correct that this was long, it is was I was asked to provide.
2) “Scriptures” include Maccabees, Enoch, and many other books no longer in modern bibles but found in ancient texts from Qumran. The protestant current bible omits many books that traditionally were part of the bible and still exist in the Catholic version. Suggesting that all “scriptures” are holy and literally factual is problematic when you consider the currently defined “scriptures” you are reading are not the historical bible.
best wishes, Geoff
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
No one dragged you to this site. If you write short comments and make a few points at a time, you will be permitted to continue. If you desire.
1. I do not care what people might think or feel about the Jewish people. I only care what God of the Bible has said. He is my master. The Jewish people are very colorful. Jesus the Messiah has gathered them home. Bot the good, the bad and the ugly.
2. The 2 books of the Maccabees are not included in the Biblical canon, simply because its a history book full of errors made by man. The Holy spirit was fully in control of the election and closure of the Biblical canon. The book of Enoch is out of the Biblical cannon for the same reasons.
2Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Timothy 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
Ellen says:
April 13, 2012 at 7:08 am
Geoff,
“That is a lie. If you will look at my words, I never once called anyone “sons of devils” nor did I ever “…condone war, attacks, force…” Lies come from where, Geoff?
—————-
Ellen says:
April 10, 2012 at 7:56 pm
“They are ancient enemies of God’s people. Their father the devil inspires them to hate Israel.”
_________________________
You didnt say it, huh?
If as you claimed, EVERYONE of these fellow human races’ “father is the devil” then they in fact would be “sons of the Devil”.
Your anger and hateful condemnations of entire populations betrays your claims to being a follower of the word of Jesus..
Dear Geoff Greaves
Shalom.
The art of debate is not to win the conversation, but to highlight the truth. Either people want to listen to the truth or not.
This site in not a World Championship in who is most cleaver to defame the person you like to debate with. If you do not like them, do not write.
Philippians 2:3
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Good analysis, Ivar. I have often debated unbelievers who can be very clever in their arguments—much better than me, for sure, as I have had no training in preparing support for or waging arguments. Often their goal was winning the argument rather than seeking the truth. My goal has always been to defend what I know to be the Truth. Even if I do it poorly, I feel that I must “…be prepared to give an answer for the hope” that I have. I don’t think I do this out of any personal ambition but rather for the sake of those who are younger in the faith. It is to be hoped that younger believers would see that sophisticated arguments, even ones supported by “facts” can still be a lie, even if they look like the truth. The Sophists of ancient Greece were known for their excellent argumentation. They would frequently argue a point that everyone listening knew was false —but their technique of formal debate assured that they would trap their opponents into agreeing with their point. Hardly something that a respecter of the truth would be doing. I’m going to research G.G.’s accusations to try to uncover the truth. I expect that this is another case of “scholars” trying to make a name for themselves in fighting against what has generally been accepted as true. There have been a mountain of lies told about Israel and Israel’s enemies are prepared to spend a lot of money to defame Israel.
Enemies of God’s people are necessarily “sons of the devil” but I called no one PERSONALLY (including you, Geoff) “sons of the devil”. I don’t hate anyone, and I am not angry with anyone—accept that or not—I really do not care whether you accept it or not. Your condemnation of me shows what then??? “If someone says , ‘I love God,’ but hates a Christian brother or SISTER, that person is a liar; for if we don’t love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we have not seen? And God Himself has commanded that we love not only Him but our Christian brothers and sisters too.” (1 John 4:20-21 NLT) Funny, I’m just not feeling very loved by you, Geoff. LOL
Geoff,
You said: “Your anger and hateful condemnations of entire populations betrays your claims to being a follower of the word of Jesus.”
If you are only “following His words” I would remind you that even an atheist could be a follower of the words of Jesus. Actually, I have known at least one person who described himself as a “Christian atheist” because he believed in “following the words of of Jesus.” God’s wrath continues to be on such a person. Again, I will say that I am definitely NOT angry. If anything, I am sad that so many are so blind. Hateful? No, I hate no one. But, in you, I detect a fair bit of animosity toward the Israeli people (as well as the Israelites of old). Those who curse God’s people will not escape the judgment to come.
Ivar, please forgive me for posting something that is a bit long, but since Geoff Greaves has posted his accusations, I felt that we needed a bit of support for the truth. The following shows why what he said is a lie.
“The enemies of Israel have found an old ‘conspiracy theory’ useful for defaming Israel and the Jewish people. There is a lot of money in presenting false information for “scholars”. Science isn’t what it used to be—it has often become a handmaiden for a political cause of late. Here is just one example of how an old “conspiracy theory” can be dressed up by modern “science” to fuel the propaganda machine against Israel.
French philosopher, Ernest Renan appears to be responsible
for starting the conspiracy theory in his book Judaism as a Race and as Religion. He puts forth the claim that Ashkenazic Jews
are descended from Khazarian converts and the line of Japheth and not ‘pure blood’ Semitic Jews descended from Shem and Abraham. Slowly but surely the theory began to spread in popularity and was ultimately popularized in the 20th century by the well known racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard. Several more authors picked up and propagated the myth throughout the 20th century to the point the accusation became widespread and well known. The theory is now very popular with various anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist organizations and is mostly used to negate Israel’s purpose of existence.
Debunking the Accusation Using DNA Evidence
The evidence is by far on the side of those seeking to refute the allegation that Ashkenazic are not ‘real’ Jews. Science and DNA evidence confirms common, Semitic ancestry for the Ashkenazi:
Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora. Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes. With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists have traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East. The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.
Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world’s Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago. We know this to be true of Arabs, for example because of their descent from Abraham’s Ishmael. Despite the Ashkenazi Jews’ long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans. This Y chromosome bears witness to the account of the Jewish Diaspora.
I will post more on the religious and linguistic evidence that Ashkenazi Jews are indeed inheritors of the Holy Land (just as are Sepharidic Jews and other ethnic groupings of Jewish/Israelite people) if anyone is interested? It is actually pretty fascinating.
p.s. Since no one has said that they are interested in further evidence that the accusations of anti-Semites about Ashkenazi Jews is false I will merely post the concluding remarks of an article I found:
“In light of all evidence, most scholars and historians have rejected or abandoned the ‘Khazarian conspiracy theory’ altogether. The remaining proponents of the theory generally consist of various groups and organizations seeking to undermine Israel’s sovereignty, its citizens right to the land, and to propagate anti-Semitic information. You’ll often find this information still being presented without any actual facts to back it up on anti-Semitic websites like Stormfront, Jew Watch, etc.
The fact remains, this claim simply is not factual and all evidence points to the ‘Khazarian conspiracy theory’ being false.”
Blessings to all my brothers and sisters here!
Ellen
Greetings and thank you for your blog!
Geoff, the following stood out to me as I was browsing the comments:
You stated:
“In the time of the Torah/NT Jesus himself is threatened multiple times with being stoned as a heretic in Jewish communities, and in many cases he turns the Torah/OT back on them,
with their own fallacies it contains,
in order to confound those accusing him of being a heretic and threatening to stone him-…”
“Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken–what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? (NIV John 10:34-36)”
____________
If I understand what you are saying here, you are saying that Jesus is speaking one sentence that is both true and false at the same time?
FALSE: (containing the “fallacy”) If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken.
TRUTH: what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
Am I understanding you correctly? This sentence is both true and false at the same time?
Jayna,
I am not wanted here and I do respect the right of the site owner to exclude opinion he chooses to.
I am only responding to you this one extra time just because I am afraid of potentially confusing you on something so important.
NO, I am in no way saying that Jesus is speaking something that is both false and true.
Jesus is dealing with ZEALOTS in the literal Pharisee tradition.
LITERALLY in the Torah we are commanded to “you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones” ,
for a large variety of deeds, from not keep Sabbath, being a rebellious son, preaching ‘another god’ (which would include the Christian doctrine of Jesus in both ancient and modern times).
Jesus in the accounts of his disciples is constantly met by zealots who announce their intent to stone him and his disciples if they can determine he is is preaching himself as being the “son of god”. As you will read me COPYING in this thread, Jesus points out that if you literally accept every Torah/OT verse as being literal, as these stoning zealots were doing, then it would also mean that “you are all gods” was intended literally..
So, no. Jesus was NOT misleading or being deceptive. He was turning the Text of the Torah in its literal sense back on those who are taking a collection of ancient texts that are written by fallible humans as being their justification for clearly wrong evil acts.
Jesus was preaching direct from the son of Gods own mouth, as was needed to not only die on the cross for our sins, but also to purify and clarify Christian godly doctrine from the mouth of the son of god instead of what was recorded by fallen humans in the Torah.
I am sorry for being long, and I promise I will not be back again, but I did want to clarify this as I am in no way saying that Jesus was speaking a lie or equivocating.
Once again, best to all. Geoff
Hello again Geoff. Thanks for responding.
I realize you may not respond to this, but I wanted to reply in the hopes that you might read and at least consider what I have to say.
You stated, “As you will read me COPYING in this thread, Jesus points out that if you literally accept every Torah/OT verse as being literal, as these stoning zealots were doing, then it would also mean that “you are all gods” was intended literally.”
My question at this point would be : If Jesus is trying to demonstrate what you say — that their Torah was in error (not of God), why would he choose Psalm 92 to teach that they would have also have to be consistent and interpret the “gods” as literal?
This psalm clearly tells us that these “gods” are going to DIE LIKE MORTALS and FALL like every other ruler. (So much for being literal gods! )
If Jesus is using this verse to teach TRUTH to the Pharisees that they would have to take these “gods” in a literal sense, does he then toss out the next verse? Or is that literal also? Do these “gods” still die like mortals?
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
Your interpretation why Jesus chose this verse to teach a TRUTH really just does not FIT.
Here is the context of these scriptures: (John 10) 22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The WORKS I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good WORKS from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good WORK,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the WORKS of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the WORKS, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
There are a few things that stand out to me here.
Firstly, Jesus seem to be referencing Isaiah 43, when he was talking about nobody being able to snatch the sheep from his hand: This is when they pick up the stones. I think they pick them up at this point because they know he is referencing Isaiah 43 where God claims the same thing. Surely the Jews listening to him would have been very very familiar with Isaiah 43. Especially “ before me no god was formed nor will there be one after me.”
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
NO ONE CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND.
When I act, who can reverse it?”
The second thing that stands out to me is Jesus focusing so much on the word WORKS. Look how many times he uses this word. There is a reason why there is so much emphasis on the word “works.”
Now keeping in mind, that they don’t want to stone him for the works he is doing, they want to stone him for “claiming to be God.”
Doesn’t it seem more likely that the reason Jesus uses Psalm 82 actually has something to do with these “WORKS” that He is doing?
Jesus tells them ..”even though you do not believe me, believe the WORKS, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” What works is Jesus asking them to believe? Maybe it has something to do with him giving them Psalm 82?
“Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”
Might this be the GOOD WORKS that Jesus is doing?
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?[b]
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Kind regards,
Jayna
Excellent, exegesis, Jayna! Shows why it can always lead into serious error when someone ignores the context of a passage and its reference to other Scriptures. I doubt that Geoff will be back but I hope that others see this comment stream and realize that no matter how good an argument sounds, it could be filled with fabrications (if not downright lies). Some humans will do almost anything to avoid accepting the Sriptures (particularly the Old Testament) as the word of God. Geoff’s errors are based on the thoughts of men.
Greetings Ellen,
Yes, context is so important. When I was looking at Psalm 82, I also noticed that it ends with these words:
Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.
Who inherits these nations? God!
They missed the connection here where Psalm 2 says that it is the
SON of God who will be the one to inherit the nations! They should have been able to recognize his WORKS that he was doing with the fact that he is the Son of God. They picked out what they wanted to believe instead of seeing the whole picture of scripture and allowing God to teach them.
Psalm 2:
I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I WILL MAKE THE NATIONS YOUR INHERITANCE
the ends of the earth your possession. I will proclaim the LORD’s decree:
Those with ears to hear would see that Jesus, doing the very WORKS of God was actually the Son of God who would inherit the nations.
Blessings to you sister!
{‘Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora..
The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe.”
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes.’}
When I got my DNA test result, they gave me ‘HaploTYPE’ results within my ‘R1b’ HaploGROUP. ‘R1b’ is the ancestry of most western-european males. If you read the article Ellen cited, it says it is only comparing selected men of jewish or arab descent who share the same ‘Haplotype’ markers, which for arabs or middle eastern Jews would certainly be in the ‘J2’ Haplogroup.
The reason that this method is deceptive is, if 90% of a Ashkenazic Jewish male population was in Haplogroup ‘R1a’instead of middle-eastern ‘J2′ Hg, these 90% of Jewish male DNA samples would all be excluded due to the way that Ellens’ study is designed, even if the R1a Jewish males are the vast majority in that population.
The reason for this is, ‘Haplotype’ marker #’s are much different for a R1a male than for a J2 male, and only the portion of male samples that all fall in Haplogroup ‘J2’ could share the same ‘haplotype’. This ensures in advance that less than 10% of the Jewish males in that general population could even qualify to be included in the study, and any Jewish males in any DNA haplogroup other than ‘J2’ would not even be counted in the study.
This study would be similar to claiming that the average American stands 7 feet tall, based on examining the average height of only a selected group of NBA pro-basketball players. In truth, while there are 7-foot tall people who can be found in the US population, they are not representative of the US average norm.
Soren,
The fact remains that citing the “Khazarian Conspiracy” myth is an old fabrication that European neo-Nazis have revived, using questionable “scientific evidence” to back up their claims. I wouldn’t imagine that any reasonable person would want to be linked with it. There are many ways to interpret scientific data in order to produce the results that are amenable to the point (often political) that is being promoted. Scientific information was not so open to manipulation in the past. Corruption is the enemy of truth. I recently had a conversation with a working scientist who said that political influence extends to who gets funding for what. He said often, the “results” of a research project are determined by the design of the project. He said (only half-jokingly) that scientists could ask the ones funding the project, “And now, what do you WANT the results to be?”
I’m always very suspicious of “scientific evidence” that claims to support the enemies of God, the Jews, Christians or His word. The claims are universally refuted but not before the original claims (promoted widely in the media) damage the faith of many (or provide fuel for those who want to destroy). Even when there are no political influences, there are often questionable results from some genetic studies. Recently, I saw a claim that some of the people of the British Isles are genetically related to the Pharaohs of Egypt, even though most historians say that this is highly unlikely. There are lots of avenues for producing “convincing” untruths.
Jayna declare ; “My question at this point would be : If Jesus is trying to demonstrate what you say — that their Torah was in error (not of God), why would he choose Psalm 92 to teach that they would have also have to be consistent and interpret the “gods” as literal?”
ירושלים –
Because he is showing that zealot do not know or honor the actual word of god, they simplistic knowing little but think they are expert. Truly, they know only just enough to be dangerous. They see and know what they want to see, and want to think correct.
Jayna claimed – “This psalm clearly tells us that these “gods” are going to DIE LIKE MORTALS and FALL like every other ruler. (So much for being literal gods! ) If Jesus is using this verse to teach TRUTH to the Pharisees that they would have to take these “gods” in a literal sense, does he then toss out the next verse? Or is that literal also? Do these “gods” still die like mortals?”
ירושלים – As before, he show that the men who come with malice in actions or word know nothing, and without having access at hand to look up and refute or challenge, they have no actual understanding besides their prejudice to do harm and desire to claim it as g-ds will. Without going to look at doctrine as literal or figurative they are disarmed, since they do not actually know it or master it.
Similar exactly to how you and Ellen admit you both need to go look at the verse before you could develop a way to explain it the way you want it to be taken to support you.
Jayna Claimed – “Your interpretation why Jesus chose this verse to teach a TRUTH really just does not FIT.”
ירושלים – “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles..
—Matthew 5:38
You say all writings are ‘scripture’; literal fact in its doctrine. Jesus refutes that above, and modify the Exodus 21 Torah verses in his word from Matthew.
As before, Jesus is not upholding the literal statements in every verse of Torah, where it was corrupt by man. He gives the reverse command to Christians that the Torah gave to Jews.
To the Christian who are saying today to support Israel in attacks or assault on Iran, they are disobeying the words of Jesus, and instead following Torah doctrine that Jesus refutes to Christian.
Jesus does not say to preemptively attack someone you think is evil. He ordered the opposite- not to resist a evil person. So, if Iran for instance, is in fact led by evil person you see g-ds instructions to handle this.