“Taking the concept of culture wars to new heights, two Christians were arrested in front of a California DMV for reading the Bible—and prosecuted”.
This is what the magazine Charisma has recorded:
Pastor Brett Coronado and Mark Mackey were charged with a misdemeanor. Mackey was reading the Bible aloud on Feb. 2, 2011, in front of a group waiting for the DMV to open for business.
A trial court in Riverside County, Calif., on Wednesday heard arguments for the defendants. Advocates for Faith & Freedom are the duo, whose case has generated national news.
Source: Charisma News
My comment:
My first thought two man had been sitting quietly and read their Bible, and been arrested by some nasty police officers. But guess what.
This video exposes men provoking an arrest, the magazine presents this as something noble.
When Peter stood up in the crowd, he did not intimidate anyone. Because in front of Him were standing “God fearing Jews”.
Acts 2:5-15
Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
I could not see many God fearing people in front of this DMV, waiting for a secular public office to open.
In the book of Acts chapter 19, Paul was accused of provoking the Ephesians . He did not do that. He debated with the locals and was able to convince people. Because the Holy Spirit was with him.
Just read the fine print in:
Acts 19:
35. The city clerk (I guess the local sheriff) defended Paul from the false accusation:
37 You have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed temples nor blasphemed our goddess.
Is is not difficult to be provocative and stage an arrest in the US, in a bid to present this as a brutal way to stop the “Holy Spirit”. But I feel that this move by some Charismatic’s in California was not a move by the Holy Spirit, but as fleshy as anything fleshy done in the name of God.
All men who walk in the flesh and promote “Jesus” often do more harm to the work of sharing the gospel in public than good. Maybe it would have been better to help an old lady over the street and just said “Praise Jesus” to the bystanders.
If someone came across to talk about Jesus, I am sure the sheriff would have let the debate continue without interference.
Written by Ivar
ivarfjeld.com 
One “knows” when the leading of The Holy Spirit has them to speak out. It is not an oppressive or demeaning manner. Even if you only say ‘Unclean’ ..Within you are fully aware WHO is talking to you and what you say to others, at the same time your heart is ever before HIM …maybe I should say ‘consciousnesses of His presence’ ..even when it’s a ‘righteous anger’…it’s His words you want to reveal not your own personal agenda, even you yourself has the reverence for Him & the words spoken~
What a strange thing it is to get arrested for reading a Bible, then go to court where you swear on that same Bible to tell the truth.
http://northseascrolls.blogspot.com
Ha Ha Ha ….Amen Tom…(smile)
Do they use Bibles there? Many courtrooms in Wisconsin have removed any such reference. So then you swear by yourself without apprehension knowing you’re a low down, lying crook…
Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Matthew 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
Matthew 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
It was our Lord Jesus who said ‘if you follow me, I will make you fishers of men’.
Ivar spotted here that the ‘fish’ were not ready to be caught, therefore the fishermen were not supposed to be casting their net on this occasion.
Pray the Lord will help us to know what to say and when to say it in order that His name might be glorified. Amen.
The men maybe not choose the right opportunity, but to get arrested for that, that is crazy.
Dear IVAR,
You keep verbally beating all kinds of preachers up because they have bad motivations but remember what the apostle Paul said in his letter to the Philippians
17 The former preach Christ out of SELFISH AMBITION, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? THE IMPORTANT THING IS that in every way, whether from FALSE MOTIVES OR TRUE, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice
Philippians 1:17-18
I pray that you pray and understand your wrongdoing, repent, and write an article about how you were wrong.
-eric
Dear Eric
Shalom.
I do rejoice when Jesus is preached crucified, and raised from the dead for our justification.
I do not feel this men deserved to get arrested. Not at all. I said it was easy to stage an arrest in such a place. And it looked like he came there to prove his point. Not to preach, nor to help anyone to come to faith.
I take a ferry to work every day. If I raise up a preach loudly, I will be told to stop by the staff. If I continue, I will be guided away by some nice security staff. I can stage this event at any point to prove my point.
That comment is to all who are so critical of those who are serving God differently then you would do.
But wait a minute, and think.
Didn’t Jesus stage his arrest? After all He knew Judas has a plan to betray Him, and He even told him to go and “do it quickly”. Jesus went exactly where He knew Judas expect Him to be found by the solders.
I tell you the truth, blessed is hi who has the courage to go on the stage, and from stage to stage, “practice make is perfect” To read the Word of God no place is out of limit, and who sets the limits or guards them or defends them who do the guarding, is just as guilty as he who betrayed Jesus.
If any of you don’t understands what God has accomplished in that staged arrest, then you should rather go on your knee and pray for understanding rather then voicing your criticism…
Blessings to all who are courageous for Him!
– Amen
Many a mature “Christian” has been hurt because of ”fleshly” (carnal Christians). Demons rule every area of this planet and if just one person tries to do ‘their own thing’ it’s very unwise! The Scripture speaks of this many times in the Old as well as the New Testament. Some people think they can go to other areas and flash a ‘cross’ to get their way, Those demons will ‘eat your cross’ and make a mockery out of you. Some even attack you!. This is not a ‘feel good battle’ this is for Life and Death. Not for staging and/or playing games to get Brownie Points back at the Church to look good among the other ‘pew sitters’. Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
Acts 19:14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so.
Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? Acts 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
It is our place to judge…..hiding behind scripture is not wise…….we are to judge but to judge ‘righteously’…please when you have time, from judging …please do a scripture research on ‘judging’…(smile) you’ll be amazed and very glad that you have come to the point of what to do ‘after you get the beam out of your eye’ ….Oh Glory…God is good, and we are all blessed whether we admit it or not…for the rain falls upon the unjust as well as the just…How else would we see or know what or who is ‘unjust’ less we get off the porch with the puppies and get in the yard with the big dogs 🙂
When you make comments like:
“All men who walk in the flesh and promote “Jesus” often do more harm to the work of sharing the gospel in public than good.”
It doesn’t sound like you are rejoicing that Jesus is being preached, rather you sound over critical of their fleshly walk. Who cares if they are walking in the flesh and provoking people as long as they are preaching Jesus we should not be critical but rather rejoice. There is no need to post an article just to be critical of someones preaching.
In reference to your continued bashing of Benny Hinn:
Mark9:38-39
38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
Regardless of all the wrong things Benny has said he still preaches Jesus and always says that he has done nothing rather if you have been healed give glory to Jesus. Maybe some of those people fake their healing to get on tv but some people are really getting healed so why spend so much time criticizing him. The scripute says sure he made not be one of us but leave him alone because he will not say anything bad about Christ.
With loving-kindness,
eric
Dear Eric
Shalom.
You wrote:
Regardless of all the wrong things Benny has said he still preaches Jesus and always says that he has done nothing rather if you have been healed give glory to Jesus.
My reply:
I agree with you, that people who are healed must honor Jesus.
But like Benny Hinn, the Pope also preach about “Jesus”. So do the Jehovah’s witnesses and the Mormons.
Jesus said: WATCH OUT. Many shall come in His name and deceive you. If you consider your self to be one of the elect, you better pay attention.
I have been to a Benny Hinn event in India, and even meet his charter accountant. I have recorded many of his “wrong things” and published it on this site.
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/category/benny-hinn-2/
Jesus knows I have spoken the truth.
Among many false teachers and false prophets promoted as apostles of “Jesus”, the most corrupt of them I have encountered is Benny Hinn.
Even another false apostle, Ulf Ekman, called Hinn a pracher of a “gnostic Jesus”. That is a false Messiah.
It is my duty to warn the true Church of Jesus.
No, I am not defending JW or Mormons, I am defending those who read that bible in public, and only Benny Hinn in this point. But even if others are false it does not make Benny Hinn equally false. Benny Hinn is guilty of backsliding, but it does not make him false prophet. He did prophecy some things wrongly, but in general he is sticking to the bible more then many others well respected religious interveners like Billy Grahm, David Jeremiah and many others for whom I pray and even if it hurts to see how they compromise the Truth, and how they backslide I pray to God’s for forgiveness and mercy on them.
There are many more twisted preachers, but we shouldn’t be so preoccupied with their wrong doing, but rather redeem that very time and use it wisely on proclaiming the Truth, and minister that what those backsliders failed to do!!!
So that the Name of Christ be glorified and not those who deserve not our precious time and thoughts.
Anyone hungry for Truth?
Here are some articles and subjects of REJECTED knowledge and FORGOTTEN Law prophesied by the prophet Hosea.
Hosea 6:4 :6
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.”
http://zbawienieiwiara.com/En./Law_changing_process.html
Take your time are read all the articles under that link,
Blessings to you!
My reply was to Eric… not in response to any other…Blessings to you Eric Blessings in the Mighty Name of “The LORD Jesus Christ!”
Dear Mr. Eric: Thank you for your comments! You are right to feel concern for criticism of another! Jesus warned us in Revelation not to become like the church of Ephesus–which was so busy identifying false apostles that they left love! They were told, Repent, or else! Wrong side of Jesus! Like unbelievers. This is very important!
Other comments were important, as well–importance of warning believers about false apostles–with Love, of course!
Your other comments about Witnessing have value… This is prophetic. Jeremiah was called to witness to a people who would not Respond. Sometimes that is the Case.
As far as your link on Marriage, I get good intentions but Protest: God made clear that there were cases where though “first contact” occurred–a parent might not allow marriage but insist on payment for damage! That is not calling sex marriage, though I get the intent of the article/s. The articles are a lot of justification for a viewpoint–connecting the dots as desired rather than looking at the Bible on its own; that is, they go BEYOND! And do not assume that I hold the “opposite” VIEWPOINT, but I hold the viewpoint of GOD AS STATED without assumptions, in THE HOLY SPIRIT, and caution! I Recognize the tendency to “go too far” and “create a picture” that “makes Sense” that leaves out info… We must not imply that we have the full picture, or we “seal up the sum,” as Satan did, claiming that “our story,” is the “complete picture,” when there is more! Yes, we are GUIDED into all truth AND AT THE SAME TIME must be careful not to “seal up the sum,” IN OUR EAGERNESS to give a COMPLETE PICTURE PREMATURELY…
The article is incomplete. Read Ezra-Nehemiah! <3+W
Dear W
Please be more specific and tell me what is in the book of Ezra – Nehemiah that speaks contrary to Deuteronomy 22:13-30?
There is talk about sin of marring foreign women, and about abandoning their foreign wives. But none of that is telling you that sexual relations is not bonding into marriage.
And YES if the father chooses so, he has the right to withhold his daughter from man who took his daughter for a wife without his consent or approval, (that passage is not in De.22:13-30, I forgot the reference, but it is there somewhere). And the money he is charging for his daughter is payments for wife, because the “DAMAGE” – as you said – is that he will not be able to give her to other man if she is not a virgin anymore, but he would have to keep his daughter single at least as long as the unwanted husband is alive, and that can be long time or possible for the rest of her life.
Otherwise fathers would loose control over their daughters marriages if they would have to release theirs daughters to anyone who had sex with them.
Maybe you need to reconsider your conclusion about that article on marriage…
Greetings and peace to you W, and to all!
The problem, Eric, is that Jesus was not being preached. Granted that ” my word will not return to me void”, but these guys were preaching something else, staged, complete with camera. It’s interesting to see that they were reading from Romans totally oblivious to Romans 13, obeying the authorities. These individuals were doing nothing for the glory of God, only glorifying themselves while drawing attention to apparent violations of the Constitution. They would have served the “Great Commission” better by praying daily for the Holy Spirit to move them to an individual to minister to and use lifestyle evangelism to convey God’s Word.
I’m afraid you’re way off base on the Hinns, Driscols, and Bells of the word STILL preaching the message of the Christ.
By the way I do appreciate your web site and zealousness. I check your news almost every day because the articles are very relevant to the times. I am just grieved that you spend time speaking against the servants of the Lord as if they were enemies.
Yes, you are right concerning their lacking of knowing many things and having many faults, but it is because they are only servants, and servants are not friends who will inherit the promise. Servants are there to serve to the best of their abilities.
Please read and discern this words: “I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.” John 15:15
And, please read and realize what this words mean:
“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14
Jesus said that the gospel must be spread through the world by His servants for “the witness” (not the salvation) so even if those servants like Benny Hinn are not bringing many to salvation they are still doing a great work of witnessing to Jesus’ imminent return. And if they find salvation or not is not our place to judge.
Greetings and blessings to you, IVAR !
– Eric
Ok, here are few thoughts.
1.) if you ask a group of people at different levels of spiritual growth, ‘who is the most established in the truth among you?’ the least established would raise his hand first, but the most established would hesitate to consider himself as such.
For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.(1 Corinthians 15:9)
So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'”(Luke 17:10)
2.) Consider Balaam, Was he a good servant of God? No. But nevertheless he blessed Israel at the command of God as much as he truely desired to please Balak. Consider Benny Hinn, Is he a good servant of God? No. But nevertheless he preaches Jesus in accordance to the will of God. God has a way and the right to use his creatures beyond our comprehension.
Shalom to you all!
Hi Eric,
I appreciate what you have said but I also agree with Ivar that we have a duty to warn others of false teaching. Those who penned the New Testament took that duty very seriously and warned about those who were teaching false doctrines. I have a friend who was brought to a decision for Christ by listening to Benny Hinn. If she had stayed under his teaching, that would not have been a good thing because I think that she would have had her faith stunted in its growth. But she listened to the warnings of other Christians and went on to diligently study the Bible for herself, as they admonished her to do. Her faith became stronger and much more mature, as she came to a greater knowledge of the truth. We Christians often rely way too much on teachers. 1 John 2:27 says that we don’t even NEED teachers since we have the Holy Spirit. He will guide us to all truth as we study the word of God.
Ellen
And I know of one man who sat down with a cup of coffee to take a short break, he turned the TV on and the beginning of the PTL Club came on…in the song sung by Tammy Faye Baker, The Holy Spirit came upon him, he fell to his knees and repented as he called out to GOD Save me!! …! he did not follow that ministry by he followed Jesus and “HIS” WORD…
Yes, Banny Hinn is not prefect, but who can tell for 100% that those who warned her were better then Benny Hinn?
Benny Hinn is guilty of entertaining the wrong people to say the least, and he did backslide few times saying and prophesying what people on TBN expected of him rather then restrain and separated from them, – but he did that under pressure.
And I can understand that he was doing some things in order not to loose his ministry. He was bound with contracts, and all kind of influence, and chances are he regraded and was forgiven, I do pray and hope so.
But Paul prosecuted and arrested christians to be killed. God was gracious with Paul, and I pray and hope He is gracious with Benny Hinn, because there is nothing wrong about his teachings.
Maybe I am not familiar with all of his teachings, but I listed to most of them, and no other preacher is teaching that good as Benny Hinn. Maybe you need to get familiar with his teachings more closely.
I tell you, be careful casting accusations, because remember when you point one finger on anybody, you are pointing tree back on yourself!
It is very responsible position to be accuser of those who are trying to serve the Lord.
If you have hard time to deal with that what Benny Hinn is doing on stage with all that casting people to the floor, then ask me, and God willing, I will explain it to you, but until you don’t understand, my advice is: take “5-th” and do not incriminate yourself in from of God’s angels! – It is that serous !!!
– Blessings and peace to all!
Dear Ivar,
I agree with what you wrote. Even though it is not written about in the Bible, I think the invention of the DMV was one of Satan’s first assignments to cause hell on earth. 🙂
It surely is a place of outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth when you have to pay outrageous fees just to drive a car.
The last thing that anyone wants to hear when forced to wait in line at the DMV before they even open at 8 a.m. — whether Christian or non-believer — is to hear some guy reading some confusing, out of context passage from the Bible in an irritating tone.
I wonder if these two men had to decency to wait for the DMV patrons to at least have a cup of coffee and a blueberry muffin before they started preaching?
It seems that if they really did care about saving anyone’s soul, they could have quietly passed out illustrated tracks or like you mentioned, subtlety talked about the Gospel to anyone who expressed an interest.
These two men were clearly trying to get attention for themselves and their ministry — probably to try to get the donation$ to roll in once the arrest happened. If anything, they did harm for the cause of Christ by their approach.
The Bible tells us, “If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet and leave that home or town.”
I wouldn’t be surprised to see them return. Hope I’m not waiting in line when they show up.
>>> The last thing that anyone wants to hear when forced to wait in line at the DMV before they even open at 8 a.m. — whether Christian or non-believer — is to hear some guy reading some confusing, out of context passage from the Bible in an irritating tone. <<< ???? How sad, how so very sad…The Word is the 'last THING' one would want someone to 'read' or to hear?
Dear Andrea
Shalom.
They staged their own arrest, put in on a video tape, to make their point. They were not on this spot to preach, nor to help anyone.
If they have walked 10 meters back, I guess no one would have objected. Than anyone interested could have walked out of the DMV waiting line, and come across to talk with them.
In the Charismatic Church, they have been given a gospel of works. They have to enter a higher level of the Holy Spirit, a pure anti-grace message. They are told they have to “do something”, in a bid to “get it”.
In the City of Bergen in Norway quite a few from a Charismatic Church started to intimidate people on the street, a few years back.
Like a man in an wheel chair. In side a buss station. They approached a friend of mine, a Christian Radio station host, and said:
– Do you want us to heal you?
The man got so offended, that his wheelchair skidded, and He almost fell off. This man is a believer, and gave the “evangelists” good.
He asked them why God had not healed their mental handicap, believing that a man who sit is a wheel chair had a sickness that needed to be healed by a miracle in a public street.
I am telling this, to give you some balance. I believe in spreading the gospel in the public areas of live. In a humble and gentle manner.
Thank you
That was not meant to save anybodies soul in first place.
It was stage of testimony and revelation of who is who any why.
There is much more going on than saving souls. You would know it if you understood the words of Christ saying:
J.12:31
“Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.”
There is great need of manifestation of spirits in all kind of people in least expected situations for the heavenly courts as a evidence of their true identities. In fact everyone is under constant interrogations and tests, but don’t realize that. Even you and I right here on this page.
God’s judgment began, and investigation is at work.
In this statement right here JM, your file is filled with evidence just as those who called the police.
Do not make mistake about it.
My advice is: Fear God and REPENT, if you can?
LOL! Thanks for making me fall to the floor laughing, Eric. Or shall I refer to you as Pastor Brett Coronado or Mark Mackey writing under the fictional penned-name of “eric” — lol! You are a bit “too close” to this issue to not be one of the perpetrators.
Staging your own arrest with the hidden “candid camera” rolling in the background for publicity and you hoped — $$$ Cha-Ching $$$ — donations pouring in.
You are well aware of the city codes but you ignored them. You know that it was ok to preach on a street corner — but not with a captive audience — but ignored them. You were asked nicely to leave — but ignored the request. Your violation of the city code got you the misdemeanor that you rightly deserve.
Your choice of Scripture to read in a irritating tone was was inappropriate for a DMV crowd. Why not start with John 3:16 if your going to try to reach an audience ASSuming they are “un-churched”.
As for my file “filled with evidence” ROLFL!!!!!!! 🙂
Now you are the judge of my salvation. HA! HA!
Thanks for the laugh, “ERIC”…lol…..
Hi everyone,
I have to share with you how i see that “Charismatic’s stage arrest for “preaching” in California”
Nothing is in vain under the sun, and all we do and say has more meanings then one. Those men who read that bible did what they did for many to be tested including themselves. You see, there was more going on that meets the eye. No doubt, there was many people in that confrontation and some of them were taking different position, and their hearts were sifted.
Some obviously were enraged with anger, and called police, but others I assume backed up saying “I don’t want to have nothing to do with that”. Others, I would hope, were possibly envious for their courage, and perhaps some were defending them. And then others who were piking and criticizing them for unclean motives. But, we who are reading this or such stories are tested too, God is very interested in our opinions, and our comments, since they will testify for or against us.
But really what do we know what really motivated those men to go and do what they did? Who know man heart to establish from distance what is in it, and what is their motivation?
We can judge people after careful observation of their life, and attitude, and be able to discern their heart condition, but it is impossible to judge people from distance not knowing them personally. Lord Jesus said: “By their fruit you will know them”
It is not enough to see the fruit, but it takes to try and know the taste, since some look good, but are bitter, or so sour. Just looking on fruit is not enough.
I myself am very careful with passing judgment, but rather I am looking how can I defend him who is not so perfect, and I must say, there are many whom with best will I can’t defend in any possible way. But even then I am not passing judgments, but trusting in God’s judgment I prefer to abstain and get busy doing God’s will. Just in case, I don’t want to destroy myself with undereducated judgments of those who past nor future is not known to me. I prefer to be as merciful as I possibly can, since I am in need of mercy myself.
“But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!….”
– Jude 1:9-10
Think about it. If archangel restrained himself from passing slanderous accusations against the devil, how much more we need to be careful with passing slanderous accusations against fellow men, and servant of God?
If we exhaust all the biblical slender against those who still preach Christ crucified for our sins as Benny Hinn does, then what will we slander with those who deny the cross and sacrifice of Christ?
Benny Hinn has a big plate, huge ministry, and many enemies to deal with right among his employees, because all the righteous men instead of baking him up with prayer and supplication are busy slandering him, and giving him more fault than he is guilty of. I am watching his ministry, and I see many thing that are very pleasing to me, as well as things that are grief not only to me, but to the Lord, but I pray for God’s mercy on him and his ministry. After all what would we do in his shoos?
I am not saying Benny Hinn is righteous or not, but i know he is servant of the Gospel of Christ, and he deserves out support.
I believe that the words of Christ: “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” – J.7:24 require more comprehension and inside then we realize, and too many are taking the freedom to abuse allowance given in this verse.
May the Lord have mercy on all of us including Benny Hinn!
– Shalom and blessings to all of you!
Dear Andrea,
You said: Many a mature “Christian” has been hurt because of ”fleshly” (carnal Christians). Demons rule every area of this planet and if just one person tries to do ‘their own thing’ it’s very unwise!
I am not quite sure what do you mean?
Jesus did His own thing as “just one” so did Paul and was opposed even by Peter. You are right, life, and ministry is w warfare, and many times you are alone, and a part of it is to be hurting, but which part in that is unwise?
Just because those carnal jews in Acts tried to rebuke demon, and were bitten up, still does not mean that servant of God need to back up and quit ministering for the fear demons, if he is alone. In fact being alone is very common thing. Think about John the Baptizer, and for that matter just about every prophet was alone, and ministering, but by very few received with acceptance.
Our blessed Lord Jesus said that it will happen, be ready, and in fact, if your ministry has no opposition, and is well accepted by the masses, then something must be wrong with you. Or if you alone, and go into crowd and you are accepted, then you are entertainer, a men pleaser. Jesus said “the way, and that gate is narrow, and very few are finding it”, so it is great sign on your behalf, if you are true, or false.
If they accused Jesus to work His miracles by the power of Beelzebub, then it is no wonder that Benny Hinn is accused and called false prophet who does as Jesus did and the apostles were doing works of miracles.
Jesus never ask who is saved or who will follow Him in order to heal him, in fact those 10 lepers who were healed went away with out any regard for Jesus, except one who came to faith in Him.
So does Benny Hinn, he is not doing any different as Jesus Himself were doing. Benny is not perfect, and I really don’t care, I do hope and pray for his salvation, but, even if he is not saved, I do recognize him as messenger of Jesus Christ to the world. Benny does what he does for the witness to the world, his ministry is End Time ministry, he has great ministry, and he does great job, because God sustains him for time is running out, and the world need to know who Jesus Christ is. And I don’t care who things of him well, but I care, and I am happy people all over the world know him, and made their opinion about him. Every opinion counts.
People think that every servant of God need to be saved and born again, but that is not the case. Just thing about the two statements of Christ
1, “I do not call you servant, but friend, because servant does not know what his master is doing…”
2, “many are called, but few are chosen”
Servants are those who are called to do the work of ministry, but few are chosen to be saved. Now if only few are saved, then it is not enough of them to run all the ministry operations to all the world, and to the few in this world.
There is a church that is in business of ministry, as a witness to the world, and there is a Church beside the church made of the few, and the true body of Christ. And both of them are rightfully there, they are mixed together, however they are not “ONE”.
The first church is only testifying about The Light, but the True Church is actually part of The Light. And they can’t agree, but are testifying constantly against each other. But there is no need to do it, because the both are there for a reason.
When Jesus comes He will separates and sort them all up, we need not to be doing His Job. It is good to talk about events in the world, like who is doing what, but calling people carnal workers is out of place, because the spiritual are very seldom in ministry, and it is expected for ministry worker to be carnal.
The spiritual are too fragile, too humble, and too meek, but the carnal, they have what takes to push and to spread the message of Who Christ is, and what He has done for humanity.
That’s why, Andrea, your friend was saver through the ministry of Benny Hinn, but now she is strong and Benny Hinn is not her hero, but Jesus Christ. That is his job, to bring people to Christ, and he done it. And for that reason we shall support, as much as we can those “many called” who minister to “the few”
– Blessings to you!
You welcome JM,
You just keep on laughing, and I well weep and lament, and we will see the end of it, according to the Word of Our Lord Jesus Christ:
John 16:20
“Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy.”
Dear “Eric”,
The lowest common denominator of human behavior are those worldly, flesh-filled, self-righteous Christians who claim to speak for God and threaten other’s salvation when they are caught in error.
Woe to you, O man as your own words have condemned you.
Next time get a copy of the Hemet, California city code before arriving at the DMV with your “candid camera” to get $$$$ from your staged arrest.
Or at least, “Eric”, make sure you bring coffee and donuts for everyone waiting in line — as well as a case of earplugs.
You sure have a lot of time on your hands to defend these pastors. Are you related?
Aren’t you taking a chance of missing Benny Hinn’s program on TBN by spending so much time here?
Dear Ivarfjeld,
1.
You said:
Jesus said: WATCH OUT. Many shall come in His name and deceive you. If you consider your self to be one of the elect, you better pay attention.
MY REPLY
I am afraid that this verse is true, but not for those peach about Jesus, but those who claim to be Jesus, and there are many of those. But I am most certainly SURE Benny Hinn is not one of those. Not in one instant Benny Hinn claim to be Jesus, never ever! Nor did he deceive anyone, at least I never had seeing him deceiving anyone. i have seeing him backsliding, and compromising, but not deceiving. And backsliding is one thing, but deceiving is quit another. Like I said before he failed many times, but he is preaching loud, and clear salvation through the cross, and through The Blood of Jesus Christ Who died on the Cross to redeem us from sin and damnation.
There are things he say, you don’t like, but it is not making him false prophet.
2.
You said:
Jesus said: WATCH OUT. Many shall come in His name and deceive you. If you consider your self to be one of the elect, you better pay attention.
I have been to a Benny Hinn event in India, and even meet his charter accountant. I have recorded many of his “wrong things” Jesus said: WATCH OUT. Many shall come in His name and deceive you. If you consider your self to be one of the elect, you better pay attention.
I have been to a Benny Hinn event in India, and even meet his charter accountant. I have recorded many of his “wrong things” and published it on this site.
MY REPLY
Let me ask you Ivar this:
Did you gather 7 milion people in India to tell them about Jesus?
I was not there, but I saw the video, and all I saw was very simple Bible story, very encouraging for anyone to take from there pick up Bible and read the whole Gospel.
Hey, what would you have to do and how would you need to cary on in order to tell 7 milion people about Jesus in one place, and many more who didn’t show up, but watched it on TV?
You would have to deal with lost sinners, and have them to approve you. The easiest job is the job of criticism…,
3.
You said:
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/category/benny-hinn-2/
Jesus knows I have spoken the truth.
Among many false teachers and false prophets promoted as apostles of “Jesus”, the most corrupt of them I have encountered is Benny Hinn.
This is your quote from that link:
you said:
“Paul the Jewish Apostle warned us in advance, about this kind of “Jesus” that Benny Hinn seems to be following.”
My Reply:
In first place, Benny Himm is following the same Jesus which you and I follow, Who was crucified for our sin, and the same Jesus who performed healing and miracles amongst sinners while not even asking them to accept His gospel.
Did you ever realized that?
This is exactly what Benny Hinn is doing.
Paul did the very same, he was even throwing handkerchiefs on people to be healed. And there was all kinds of weird manifestations of unclean spirits, and manifestations of anointing.
Come on Ivar, use your imagination righteously with some discernment, please?
I am not going to go and comment on every sentence and point you made, (unless you want me too, then I will do it in detail, just let me know, I will proof biblically many of your errors).
But for now I am telling you that you just went on A trip over Benny Hinn, and forgot to take your luggage with mercy, discernment and fear of God, with you…,
4.
You said:
Even another false apostle, Ulf Ekman, called Hinn a pracher of a “gnostic Jesus”. That is a false Messiah.
Now, I don’t know who Ulf Ekman is, but since you say Ulf is false teacher, then why would you or I rely on his discernment or his opinion about anybody?
5.
You said:
“It is my duty to warn the true Church of Jesus.”
MY REPLY
I do appreciate your work on informing people of what is going on in the world. Yes, that could be even your duty if you are gifted with such abilities, and that would be adequate warning, but bashing people and criticizing those who preach Jesus crucified for our sin, is simply wrong!
And you know what, i do not call you false, but overzealous too quick to judge, and slow in mercy and understanding, and that is bad testimony before God and His angels.
Be humble, receive my plead, slow down and be more understanding of those who, maybe are not serving God in a way you would do in their place, but pray for them so they can receive better guidance from the Holy Sprit and protection from the evil one.
“Since the harvest is great, but workers are so very few”, which are not ashamed of the Cross. I truly believe Benny Hinn is enduring a lot of difficulties and is not ashamed of the cross of Christ.
Over all I still see in you care for the Truth, and I pray for you to slow down, and be more open on the voice of the Spirit of Truth.
Keep up good work, be strong and merciful, and I pray to Our Heavenly Father, that mercy and forgiveness be granted unto you!
– Amen!
By the way Ivar.
You don’t really need to worry about warning the true Church of Jesus, by interpreting any event or anybody truthfulness or falsehood, because every one who belongs to The LORD Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit within him to warn and guide him to all truth (John 16:13).
You can gather important and critical information and put them all together on one page – that would be great service to the Holy Spirit and to God’s people.
But since they are God’s people they would, by the assistance of the Holy Spirit, understand the meaning of them, and receive warning from the Holy Spirit right within them.
Receive my warning, and correction, pray and trust that the Holy Spirit is in charge of the interpretation of events and of the recognition of what is true and false.
FEAR GOD, and REPENT !!! Because proudly you are taking wrongful charge of what the Holy Spirit is in charge of.
Information-sharing is hardly trying to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, Eric. The sharing of opinions (correct or incorrect) does not take the place of the guidance and conviction provided by the Holy Spirit, either. When posters share (erroneous) points, the Holy Spirit protects believers here from falling for it.
Greetings: Just wanted to add my 2 cents 🙂
Eric said: I am afraid that this verse is true, but not for those peach about Jesus, but those who claim to be Jesus, and there are many of those.
When I read Jesus’ words in that passage, I don’t believe he is actually saying that the deception will be that people are deceived by following someone who claims TO BE Jesus. I’ve heard churches many times teach this is what it means, but I really think that their not seeing what Jesus is really saying.
Rather, I think what Jesus is actually referring to here is that there will be many who will be saying “Jesus IS THE MESSIAH” and this is how they deceive so many. They will have all the appearance of being a believer, claiming that they believe Jesus is the Messiah.
Take out the punctuation (that was not in the Greek) and read it again.
“For many shall come in my name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many.” Matt 24:5
The decievers will actually claim that Jesus is the Christ, the messiah.
I agree, Jayna. Muslims accept that Jesus (“Isa” to them) is “a Messiah and prophet” (whatever they believe that to be). But they deny His divinity. Even New Agey gnostics speak of the
“Christ consciousness” of Jesus and that Jesus was an
“Ascended Master” or “True Gnostic”. But again, they do not acknowledge His divinity. I believe that Jesus was saying, in other words, “There will be no shortage of “messiahs” even those who come in My name” but unbelievers will have no understanding that I AM because only true believers have that awareness through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.”
sorry for all the above grammar/spelling errors. At work on a break and in a rush to type 🙂
Well, this is exactly what i meant writing to Ivar. You are making the same mistake by “guiding” people\readers to understand the WORDS of Christ.
We need to speak only facts, and teach about the commandments, but not any interpretations how to understand them, Jesus’ WORDS are very simple to understand without interpretations.
Lord Jesus said:
Therefore go…. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you….”
We are to teach what LORD Jesus said,
But what He meant is not our place to teach. He didn’t say ‘explain to them what I meant” – did He?
It is the Spirit of God JOB to give understanding.
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.”
We can not share our understandings thereof, because it is personal revelation from the Spirit. We cannot draw anyone to Christ, because that is The Father JOB as Lord Jesus said:
John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless The Father Who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
But people who don’t understand have itchy ears to listen to other people understandings and interpretations rather than rely on Lord Jesus’ PROMIS and ask HIM for understanding directly from the Holy Spirit.
And those who think that they have understanding, they are too proud in their own understandings, because if they had true understanding from God and were guided by His Spirit they would understand that Only God is Who can give true understanding, and men cannot share his understanding given from God with other man, and much less give other people meaning of what God meant in His statements.
James 1:5
“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, Who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
I hope someone will get what I am saying here…
Greetings to everyone!
I was taught ‘God means what HE says and Says what He means! (smile) Kind of like a family with a Mother and Father, Dad always had no problem expressing his meaning by what He said (and or looks ….(smile) Eric your response brought a smile ..The Same with The Intimate walk with our Lord Jesus..no mistake in what he says and means. (smile)
Greetings to you, as well, Eric!
You said: “We are to teach what LORD Jesus said,
But what He meant is not our place to teach. He didn’t say ‘explain to them what I meant” – did He?”
No, He did not. However, if you will recall, the Apostles, in their TEACHINGS (see Acts 2:42), would frequently remind their hearers/readers of an Old Testament passage that provided greater understanding of what they were saying. I agree in principle that we should not be so dependent on the teaching of others—we should be reading the Scriptures for ourselves (both the Old and the New Testaments). Even His disciples often had trouble understanding what He was saying and Jesus would patiently explain His meaning to them (that’s called teaching).
Scripture tells us that there will be a role in the Church for various teaching gifts (among other gifts.) “…All are not teachers are they?…” (See 1 Corinthians 12:29-31 for the entire quote.) Scripture also tells us that the Holy Spirit gives us the gifts that He gives by His own will. (1 Corinthians 12:11)
Yours is a position that simply is not supported by Scripture, Eric. You have inadvertently taught against yourself in taking the position that you do. You are teaching your opinion as to what opinions should be taught. I say read the Scriptures for yourself— then if you find a passage that is troublesome, ask God for help in understanding the passage by the power of His Spirit. If you are still having difficulty, it may be a good idea to check out the historical interpretations of the passage. I believe that the Holy Spirit will lead you to the correct understanding (and often, there is an understanding of “then” and “now” (this often happens when interpreting OT prophetic passages).
Ellen,
Old Testament passage is not an interpretation nor opinion, but Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit, so do not confuse people opinions with biblical writings, please…
And Ellen,
Teachings the Gospel and the commandments of Christ (Matt.28:20) is one thing, but opinion, understandings and interpretations of the Scriptures are completely different.
There may be one teaching, but every student can understand differently the same lesson, and everyone can have different opinion and\or interpretation according to the will of God who gives understanding to those who walk with Him, and those who do not walk with God they develop own understandings, opinions and interpretations.
Teachings is very biblical thing, but interpretations of the scriptures is NOT. Interpretations are responsible for braking christianity into all kind of denominations.
Opinions however are almost all based on someone own spiritual or supernatural experience that is not necessarily pure or holy, and may or in most cases does lead into all kind of deceptions, and on the end confusion leading to ever so more popular agreement to disagree under the so trashed up slogan of “love one another”
Therefor I am not against teaching, but against sharing opinions and interpretations.
Peace to you Ellen,
Ellen,
I don’t understand what it mean, what you said:
‘Information-sharing is hardly trying to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, Eric. ”
But what makes you think that?
“The sharing of opinions (correct or incorrect) does not take the place of the guidance.”
How do you know how other people are taking “sharing of opinions”? maybe you are not taking it as a guidance, but I know many people who are taking opinion of other people as a guidance BIG TIME!
it is foolish to consider that other people think the way you think!
– greetings to you Ellen and to all,
Eric,
Your comment reads like pretzel logic — fallible, twisted, circular reasoning that when dissected is wrong, does not make sense and does not explain the situation rationally. This isn’t about forcing our mortal opinions verses allowing the Holy Spirit to discern the truth. According to Wiki, “the right to freedom of speech and expression is closely related to other rights, and may be limited when conflicting with other rights.” BUT THERE IS MUCH MORE TO THIS STORY:
1. This story and videotape are ONE YEAR OLD, the original date of the incident was February 2, of 2011. It has been suggested that it is being released now to generate publicity, sensation, and skew public opinion. The charges stand at a misdemeanor, yet the counsel for the street preachers, Advocated for Faith and Freedom, are seeking a counter suit. According to public information officer for the CHP’s San Gorgonio office in Beaumont, an immediate dismissal of the lawsuit based on federal judicial findings is sought because law enforcement officers acting within their official capacity cannot be sued for carrying out their duty. (Sorry Charlie.)
2. Why do you think that preaching the Gospel falls under a “higher” level of constitutional protection than other forms of protected speech? The men were charged with disturbing the peace on private property. They were asked to leave but refused to do so. If it was just about spreading the Gospel, why did they have the camera set up? Further, the CHP officer who made the arrest said that they were repeatedly told that a permit was needed, which they failed to obtain and have been warned repeatedly on many other occasions.
3. According to Senior Pastor Gary Johnson at Calvary Chapel Hemet, both of the men who were arrested were not pastors of that church and are considered “former” members of Calvary Chapel. According to an article in “News for the Masses”, Johnson said in an email that the men had almost been arrested several times prior to the incident and knew they needed a permit prior to going to the DMV. Johnson said, “I had been attempting to temper their style of evangelism. They revolted at the idea that they were wrong and eventually left the church.”
4. Pastor Gary Johnson is on record as stating that they were constantly at risk for arrest when they went out “Evangelizing” and it appears the two “brothers” (Mackey and Coronado) knew an arrest was looming.
Read More:
http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/04/07/advocates-for-faith-and-freedom-defend-pastors-civil-liberties/
On a whole other note, not to be fully diagnosed here because the matter deserves its own separate post; there is another part of this story and it’s the issue of the “News” agencies that are releasing the onslaught of faked “persecution” to the masses. The same people who are crying foul have set up for themselves their own News Organizations and also have embedded their own operatives within main stream and alternative media to skew the public opinion toward their own gain. This may be difficult for some of you to comprehend, that the Religious Right, “Conservative Christian/Evangelical churches” would in fact seek to gain public opinion by releasing stories that gives the appearance of them being persecuted when they are not, but in fact that is exactly what I am suggesting.
Always check the sources, see what is motivating them and then as always, follow the money.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Hi Eric,
You said: Ellen, I don’t understand what it mean, what you said:
I said originally :”Information-sharing is hardly trying to supplant the role of the Holy Spirit in a believer’s life, Eric. ”
You said: “But what makes you think that?”
Simply that this website shares information about various movements and trends that may or may not interest Christians. It is called “News That Matters” for a reason, Eric. Much of what passes for “news” in the mainstream media is more in the vein of entertainment than anything else. Sharing information that is relevant to prophecy is one of the main thrusts here. Many Christians like to keep tabs on that.
I said originally: “The sharing of opinions (correct or incorrect) does not take the place of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.”
You said: “How do you know how other people are taking “sharing of opinions”? maybe you are not taking it as a guidance, but I know many people who are taking opinion of other people as a guidance BIG TIME!”
That is surely true, Eric but Christians should take responsibility for their own spiritual growth by reading and studying the Bible for themselves. They should not be relying on “spoon-feeding” from various “famous” pastors. The first few chapters of 1 Corinthians speaks to that very issue of the Corinthians saying that they were “followers” of Paul or Apollos. We should all be followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and heed the chiding that the Apostle Paul gave to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 4:6.
Dear Ellen,
I am sorry, but that is not the case.
I see in this website, and on this page, next to information of world or movements events relevant to the prophecy of the scriptures also irrelevant personal opinions, and bashing of those who are doing nothing other but reading the Word of God, The Holy Scripture.
If the author of this website just posted what happen, it would be right thing to do but he expressed harsh criticism, A personal opinion about this men motivations, which was nothing more but guessing. That is A very unrighteous thing to do.
That is all I have to say. And I am telling you, I am not here to make senseless arguments with anybody, I am here to help.
People opinions are contagious and and work as a stumbling blocks, and he who is spreading unrighteous opinions will answer for it – that’s all.
– Greetings to all of you.
Dear Eric
Shalom.
If some one is a money pimp, and say “Praise Jesus”, and a demon take the crowed in front of him for a ride, what would you do?
Let me give you an excellent example of the claimed to be “Holy Spirit”, not coming from God of the Bible at all.
A group of Charismatic Word of Faith followers, came home from Canada and played a video for a group of people. They were very exited, because the “Holy Spirit” had manifested in a meeting. They said “Praise Jesus”, and “Halleluja”. The manifestation was that in a pause in a ‘Miracle meeting”, the drum set of the gospel band had stated to play by it self.
A Christan journalist asked one question:
From where in the Bible will you claim there was a miracles like this, confirming this is the Holy Spirit?
The party was off course spoiled, but the Journalist cross checked the story.
The “Miracle meeting” had been conducted in a native Indian township. The name of the township, was the name of an ancient native Indian “god”. The “god” that play’s on drums.
What these Charismatic’s was tying to do, what to present pure witchcraft into Churches, shouting “Praise the Holy Spirit”.
The Bible expose you Eric. You are suppose to listen to people who have the gift of discernment.
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
Agreed, Ivar. 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us that the word is to be used to rebuke. One of the problems we have in the Church today is that no one is willing to stand up against false teaching. The early Church leaders had no such timidity. They modeled after our Lord who pointed out false teaching and crass commercialism in the Temple. While the New Testament never tells any believer that they should harm another for erroneous beliefs, it does say that we should be zealous to guard the purity of teaching by speaking out against false teaching.
O Ivar, Ivar,
I can’t believe you are not getting any of what I said up until now.
You are giving me ONE discernment FITS ALL.
Just because there are such witchcraft believing “christians” does not mean that those two men reading the bible on this video on the top of this page are part of them.
I am talking specifically about the two men reading the bible, and not about all other wrong doers out there.
There are many verses in the Bible, and all of them are true, but if you use them in wrong setting, they become false for a particular situation, and there can be done false discernment or teachings based on true scriptures. And you are guilty of doing just that, and you refuse to take a correction.
You should rather consider this verse:
1 Corinthians 12:20-25
“But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.”
Remember:
James 2:13
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy.
Luke 6:36-37
“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
Read again what I said before, and do not claim gifts which you don’t have, but remember:
Heb. 10:31
“It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
FEAR GOD, and REPENT your PRIDE if you can!?
Eric: “I am talking specifically about the two men reading the bible, and not about all other wrong doers out there.”
The were not “reading” the bible. They were shouting the bible. They were forcefeeding the bible.
Picture a bunch of muslims standing there shouting the words of their Koran forcing passerbys to hear those words. Not quiety reading them, but shouting them! This is America. You have a right to practice which ever faith you want, but forcing people to listen to you shout it out?
What if this had nothing to do with religion at all. What if these were playing rap music, forcing people to listen to it? Would they not have been arrested the same way. This was staged, and this was wrong. Do you really think that Jesus wants us to share the “good news” this way?
Jayna,
But thank God they did not read the koran, or played rap music, but read The Word of God, and they did under their own conviction, and you are not in position to judge their action.
Secondly every human need to hear the word of God, because every human will be forcefully judged by God, and this men where doing what every caring mother does to seek children by spoon-feeding them medicine even against their will.
They who called police or who were offended by the GRACE shown to them of forceful reading of the Word of God will answer to God for being rebellious, -> and you are one of them, <- do not make mistake about that!.
And if you are true christian then do not equalize the Word of God with koran or rap music, that is disgraceful to say the least.
– greetings and peace to you!
Eric: “Secondly every human need to hear the word of God, because every human will be forcefully judged by God, and this men where doing what every caring mother does to seek children by spoon-feeding them medicine even against their will.”
My reply: The church (the body of Christ) is a mother who spoon feeds the Word of God to people against their will?
The bible tells us: All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Eric, please show me in scripture where we are instructed to force feed God’s words down people’s throats. I don’t see that in my bible anywhere. As a matter of fact, I don’t see anywhere that the bible is teaching that believers are “mothers”. Believers are children of God. We are not the adults of God, we are the children of God. We are told to follow Jesus’ example.
We are to be salt and light. What does this mean to you?
By the way, the two men in that video started their own church. See if you discern the lies they teach.
Keep in mind that false teachers pose as ministers of Christ.
http://reconciledchurch.com/location-map/
Jayna,
Luke 17:3
So watch yourselves. “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
Now, Jayna,
No one listen to rebuking voluntarily, but usually you have to forcefully approach him who need to be rebuked.
Jesus went and forcefully rebuked the people in the Temple, He was not gentle, but He was angry and even violent.
FEAR GOD, and REPENT your prideful condemnations of him who is right, and need not to be corrected or criticized.
If you understood the Words of Christ:
Mark 9:38
“Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us. Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,”
You would NOT condemn and defend those who condemn the servants of God,
And if you understood
“The Parable Of The Wheat And Tares”..Matt 13:24-30; 36-43
You would NOT condemn even those who are false worker, the servants of the devil. Because even those are in place for a reason.
IF YOU ONLY UNDERSTOOD, that even JUDAS was sent by JESUS The LORD to proclaim the Kingdom of God and WAS GIFTED with the POWER of making miracles and with the power of rebuking unclean spirits, you would repent in hurry, and restrain from any additional unrighteous judgments.
Matt.10:5-10
“These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons.”
READ all my previous statements on this page, and hopefully your eye will open?
I am listening one of the audio teachings from the website you sent me, and it is right and biblical.
Jayna,
By pointing one finger on “them”, you are pointing 3 fingers right back on yourself.
FEAR GOD and REPENT!
– Greetings to you
Eric: “You would NOT condemn even those who are false worker, the servants of the devil. Because even those are in place for a reason.”
Wow, do you actually listen to what you are saying?
The good news (gospel) is not a works based self-righteous religion. That is what those men are teaching.
Ephesians 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
Wow, Jayna,
How foolish of you to to say or claim to know and try to correct others, and in the process expose yourself as one who has “0” knowledge and understanding of the Bible.
You are not finding in your bible nothing what could deliver you from your ignorance, because it is not granted to you to benefit from the bible. All you can do, is to read it for your own damnation.
Read that and see if that makes any sense to you?
Jude 1:9-10
“But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”[d] 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.”
but if that verse makes no sense, then just quit incriminating yourself before God and His angels.
Awww, Eric. PLEASE just STOP throwing hellfire and damnation at genuine followers of the Lord Jesus Christ. General Ulysses S. Grant once happened upon two Union soldiers who were having a fistfight outside his tent. He gestured toward a far ridge where there was a Confederate encampment and said, “Gentlemen, the enemy is over THERE!” In that, I think there is a lesson for some Christians like you. WHAT are you complaining about—do you even know?
Dear Ellen,
You said: “WHAT are you complaining about—do you even know?”
It doesn’t take long for those with discernment to watch someone unravel and reveal themselves and true motives in just a few short posts. Sadly, no one seems to believe Eric’s faulty deception except for Eric himself.
It is noteworthy that the “church” the two men started preached one of their very first sermons on tithing.
$$$$…CHA-CHING…$$$
Seems like if I was one of these two men (*wink*) I would concentrate on a defense that would keep me out of jail, as a “misdemeanor crime holds a maximum punishment of 12 months of incarceration, typically in a local jail. If they are lucky, people who are convicted of misdemeanors are often punished with probation, community service, short jail term, or part-time imprisonment; served on the weekends.
“In addition, “misdemeanors usually do not result in the loss of civil rights, but may result in loss of privileges, such as professional licenses, public offices, or public employment. Such effects are known as the collateral consequences of criminal charges. This is more common when the misdemeanor is related to the privilege in question (such as the loss of a taxi driver’s license after a conviction for reckless driving), or when the misdemeanor involves moral turpitude – and in general is evaluated on a case-by-case basis.” –Wikipedia
This “church” the two men founded may never get off the ground, determined by the outcome of the charge.
What are you talking about Ellen?
Give me a break, will you?
I am the one who is defending the genuine followers of Christ, the two men who had the courage to read the Word of God in front of unrepented sinners from accusers of brethren who gathered on this page to backbite, and condemn the ones who are not here and can’t defend themselves,
Don’t you see it?
Of cause you don’t, because you are one of the accusers.
But this men didn’t do anything wrong, all they did was to try to convict sinners of their sins.
AND YOU ALL RATHER DEFEND THE SINNERS saying they have the right to call police and put Bible reading, GOD SERVING people under arrest for the offense of presenting them with A warning of God’s punishment.
Did you ever read Acts 21, about Paul, when he was about to go to Jerusalem, a man was prophesying that he will be arrested in Jerusalem, and Paul went anyway – right? Was Paul guilty of staging his arrest?
Come on you all?
What is your judgment about Paul staging his arrest?
Those two men did exactly the same thing Paul did – didn’t they?
Paul knew as this men knew what will happen, and they did just as Paul did, because just as Paul was under conviction to go, so where those men.
Who of you all can prove they were not?
No one can judge them except God, whom they serve.
Jayna is pointing their Website as not christian, but there is nothing wrong with their website. In fact their Website is testifying on their benefit. But where is Jayan website for us all to see what kind of “genuine followers of the Lord Jesus Christ” is she\he of?
And you are calling me “hellfire and damnation thrower” ?
– shalom to you all!
ERIC says, “You are not finding in your bible nothing what could deliver you from your ignorance, because it is not granted to you to benefit from the bible. All you can do, is to read it for your own damnation.”
You might want to read proverbs 17:15.
He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.”
I pointed out the false works gospel that these false teachers are preaching, and you turn around and condemn me a believer.
You might want to check out their “useful links” as they are directing the sheep to John Macarthur/Ray Comfort teachings.
Paul referred to false teachers as dogs and evil doers. Phil 3:2. Do you think he was being a little too harsh? Maybe he should have just shut his mouth and listened to you.
As it was already pointed to you earlier in this thread: 2 Corinthians 11:4: For if someone comes to you and preaches a JESUS other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different SPIRIT from the one you received, or a different GOSPEL from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
Hi folks,
I think it is important at this juncture to separate the two issues that are floating hereabout.
On one hand we have the violation of free speech rights (if indeed that is the case and it was not totally fabricated). I think how ever ill-advised these men were for preaching outside the DMV, they still have the right to do so, unless they were, in some way, impeding the function of the office or barring the way of the citizens who were seeking service there. There used to be a LOT of “street preachers” in the past. There would have been at least one in every city—usually near the busiest intersections. Sometimes they were a bit disheveled and even smelly but the vast majority of passersby tolerated them with good grace. If this situation was real, it represented “gestapo” tactics by an overzealous CHP officer. The right action on our part would be to protest the violation of Constitutionally-guaranteed rights. We should protest if a Jewish rabbi was denied the right to read the Tanakh aloud in public or a Muslim mullah was denied the right to read the Quran aloud in public. If the men had been using a loudspeaker at an very high volume level and were “disturbing the peace” then there would have been some cause. But as far as I could see, the officer would have been better occupied chasing down some teenager who was cruising through town blasting people with his obnoxiously-loud rap “music.”
On the other hand, if these men were preaching a “different gospel” we have an obligation to warn Christians about their preaching.
You seem to be protesting the latter action on the part of some of the Christians who commented, Eric.
Ellen,
There is nothing wrong with street preachers or those who wear “sandwich boards” and stand at intersections and wave at passerbys. BUT…this is not the issue here and has been discussed previously up thread in detail. Did you read the links?
These men knew that a permit was needed to evangelize at the DMV, in fact had been told this numerous times. Yet they kept returning to the scene in violation of city codes that they knew would result in their arrest. They staged their own arrest. This is clear.
Their former church pastor even spoke about this. I’m not going to repeat what was written about already — the links provided review the historical data in this particular case.
I agree with you that there are two issues:
1. That street preaching is fine if it is not done for personal gain.
2.That the false teaching is another issue altogether.
Hi JM,
I have to confess that I didn’t read the entire comment stream. I just watched the video. I caught some suggestion in some of the comments that all was not as the video portrayed it. It seems frankly dishonest for “preachers” to go about creating a situation like this merely for the purpose of making money and, if they were doing that, they deserve to be chided. It cheapens the very real martyrdom of those who are endangering their lives in other lands, for the simple act of preaching the gospel.
What “different gospel” did they preach ???
On that video, they didn’t peach nothing, but they simply read few warning verses about God anger toward sinners, and that was in pretty calm manner.
I am looking and listening to their preaching on their website, and there is no any “different gospel” Where can I read or listen to that “different gospel” of which you are all talking about?
If anyone heard and has a prove of such “different gospel”, then please show it to me, make your case with evidence, give me that link, point it to me with biblical reference, please. And up until then they are innocent.
Eric,
The website promotes John MacArthur, Ray Comfort, etc. This was already mention above. Going around in circles gets old.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Lordship%20Salvation/macarthur.htm
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/john_macarthur_exposed.htm
JM,
On this websites you are presenting only one issue which is doctrine of SALVATION trough WORKS or through FAITH.
But Lord Jesus said:
Matthew 7:16
“By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles?”
And based on Jesus’ teaching James said that very clearly, that works will be following those who are saved:
James 2:18
Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.” (New Living Translation)
And it says in Revelation 20:13
“The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.”
Issue of deeds is true and important however it is not a GOSPEL in itself and much less “different gospel” but only one aspect of proper understandings the True Gospel. This issue does not define truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
TRUE GOSPEL is a message about JESUS CHRIST:
1.) Jesus Christ who was born of Virgin
2.) Jesus Christ who came IN FLESH
3.) Jesus Christ teachings about the KINGDOM OF GOD
4.) Jesus Christ who was crucified and died for the sins of His followers, who will believe in Him and live according to HiS TEACHINGS
5.) Jesus Christ who resurrected after 3 days
6.) Jesus Christ who sends the Holy Spirit to whom He choses.
7.) Jesus Christ who will come again to judge the living and the dead.
If anyone denies any of this seven truth about the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST he denies Christ Himself and his gospel is “different”
I don’t think any of those men whom you are prosecuting is guilty of preaching “different gospel”
Your problem JM, is as I see it now, that this men are preaching to quit sinning, and you think that is wrong, you prefer a “gospel” that allows to sin, and still be saved and go to heaven – right?
Well, good luck JM!!! 🙂
I think the dispute that the two of you are having is an old one. While the Bible does NOT teach a Gospel of works, it does teach (see the Book of James) that works are the evidence of one’s salvation. If a person is saved, he/she will have good works, done out of a love for God and a love for other humans (that is, if he/she lives long enough after salvation to produce them). The Bible does NOT teach “cheap grace”—that is the erroneous teaching that we can deliberately keep on sinning and expect that we are saved. While we will never be sin-free in this life, the Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit is there to be our “helper” in learning more and more of the Truth of the word that He inspired and to obey the “Law of Love” (see James 2:12)—the “law that sets you free.”
Well Ellen
lets look at the scriptures. what is st. John telling us?
He is making two opposite statements to two opposite kind of people.
In verse 1:8 he says about those Jews who said about themselves that they are children of Abraham and need no Jesus, because they keep the whole law of Moses and have no sin in them:
1 John 1:8
8 ) If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 ) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 )If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
But then he says in 1J.3:7-9 about the ones who did confess their sins repent, and were “set free from sin” and BORN AGAIN of GOD and “become righteous as He is righteous”:
1.John 3:7-9
7 ) Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 ) He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 ) Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
People don’t give God full credit for being able to keep His children from sin .
People claim to be “born again”, and they claim to be sinners as well. Go and figure :O how is that biblical?
And people are trying to teach that, but they are prosecuted for that by those who insist on the right to be “born again” and remain sinner.
Now, righteous men does not sin, because he IS righteous man, but he can fail. Fall however is not a sin.
Proverbs 24:16
“for though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, (because God is with him) but the wicked (sinners) are brought down by calamity.”
And who wishes to understand the different between the SIN of wicked man and FALL of righteous man, he need to inquire some wisdom from God through the Holy Spirit:
James 1:5
“If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.”
Men can only teach and share the gospel with another men, but men cannot teach wisdom or give understanding –
Wisdom is strictly guarded, and given ONLY to the ELECT ones, selected and given only by God Himself to those whom He chooses.
I can’t help you with understandings… sorry,
So, Ellen,
make your mind, and pray about it, are you little bit righteous and little bit wicked? that is are you at times the child of the devil and at times child of God? (split custody?) or are you “righteous as He is righteous” if ” you are born of Him, and His seed remains in you and you cannot sin”?
Righteousness Ellen is not about trying to be better every day.
Righteousness is imputed onto believer who loves God with all his heart, with all his soul, with all his mind, and all his strength,
Therefore it is not up to trying not to sin, but it is all about having SEED of God in you who stops you from sinning.
So you are either fully righteous with God’s seed in you, or you don’t have His SEED and you are fully wicked child of the devil. White or black, there is no room for any gray.
– peace to you all!
One (among a number) of the problems I have with Charismatic doctrine is just what you have outlined, Eric. It is to invite pride (and I have known a number of Charismatics who have a distinct problem with spiritual pride) to insist that any human in this life (with the exception of Jesus, of course), can be sin-free. We have been DECLARED righteous (that is, “justified”) by the Power of Christ’s Atoning Blood. HOWEVER, we are still in the PROCESS of BEING “sanctified” (see John 17:17) as we are “washed in the water of the word” (Ephesians 5:26) and walk in the Spirit. We need to see our total dependence on God for the victory over sin. There is NOTHING in us apart from the Spirit of Christ (even after we come to faith) that produces righteousness—“all our righteous acts are as filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). After telling us that He would send the Holy Spirit to always be with us in John 14, Jesus told us that He is the vine and we are the branches and that apart from Him, we can do NOTHING [good]. (John 15:1-17) We will continue to have victory over the sin in our lives ONLY if we continue to walk in the Holy Spirit. The moment we break away from our “life line” we will begin to fall into sin. Only Jesus ever walked every moment in the Holy Spirit (He had the Holy Spirit “without measure” (John 3:34). He succeeded where Adam failed. As Adam’s children, we fail too.
When we do fall into sin, it is the action of the permanently indwelling Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin and brings us to humility and repentance. It is repentance that brings us back into a right relationship with Christ and with others who we have harmed with our sin, as we admit our sin, ask for forgiveness and then turn from away from that sin—becoming “dead” to it.
Another problem that I have with teaching a believer that he can and should expect to be sin-free, is that it invites secret sin into a congregation. Either that or sin is rationalized as “not sin”. I recently counseled a single middle-aged woman who attends a Charismatic church (I am a Biblical counselor). One of the Elders in her church, convinced her that she should have sex with him, even though it seemed like sin to her. When she said that she wanted to break it off with him because she felt that it was adultery for him (he is married) and fornication for her, he accused her of being “legalistic”!
Dear Ellen,
Before you repeat after those who love to sin, but have “0” understanding, and for the justification of their sin they are taking out of context that single verse and say blasphemously against the Holy Spirit, that His righteousness is “filthy rag”
Why wouldn’t you read that verse Is. 64:6 with it’s context?
Isaiah is most certainly not talking about those who are walking with God, and are born again, washed by the Blood of Lord Jesus Christ, and baptized with His Holy Spirit, as those who are the “filthy rags”
In verse 4 Isaiah is acknowledging God as the only One who saves those who are waiting on Him.
In verse 5 he is saying that God comes with help to those who are willing not to sin, but do what is right – right?
then he says that “we” – referring to the nation of Israel
“continued to sin against them,”, and God was rightfully angry
and in despair Isaiah cries in confession that their righteousness become a filthy rag, unsaved and unclean.
Isaiah 64:4-7
4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and have given us over to[b] our sins.
Ellen, if st John says that Who is born of God is righteous like He is righteous, then you better not call His righteousness “filthy rag”
Read the bible and skip the commentary, just ask God for wisdom.
You said
HOWEVER, we are still in the PROCESS of BEING “sanctified”
What makes you think that process of sanctification must be accompaniment with sins? And then you say: “If He is the vine, and we are the branches,”
Ellen,
how can he be pure vine, and we unclean with sin branches? – you are not making any sense?
You said:
“When we do fall into sin, it is the action of the permanently indwelling Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin and brings us to humility and repentance.”
We are born sinners, and conviction of the Holy Spirit is bringing us to repentance once, and after we repent, and are gifted with the presents of the Holy Spirit in us. He is there as God’s SEED to KEEP us from SINNING, and we will not keep nor fall into sin, because “stronger is He who is in us then he who is in the world”
There is no such thing as repent, confess, be saved, and slip into sin, and be convicted, and repent, and confess, and be forgiven, and slip into sin again, and so on over, and over. That is Catholic “yo-yo” theology, as long you go to confession once a week, you are okay, you can keep on sinning as long you are confessing regularly.
O Ellen, Ellen, once you are saved, and receive the Holy Spirit, He is strong to be able to keep you saved from sinning.
The truth is that people think they have the Spirit, are “born again” but they are not, they only think, because the pastor taught them that after they say the “sinners prayer” they are “born again”.
And no wonder that they fall into sin, because they did not have the Holy Spirit to keep them from sinning, and they keep on sinning thinking the are “born again”.
So they do not question the pastor’s theology, they do not search their heart, but proudly they keep claiming to be “born again”, and since they openly sin, they pul the verse of Is.64:6, and claim the right to be “filthy rag”, BUT SAVED and filed with Holy Ghost, and on the way to Heaven.
What a deception?
Ellen, don’t be one of them. Today is your day go on your knees, and confess, ask for clean Spirit who will be able to KEEP you from SIN for ever- and maybe God will have mercy on you – Amen!
And if it happens that you keep on sinning, after being truly “born again” then you are sinning against the Holy Spirit, and that is the only sin that Jesus said will not be forgiven. Because that is as if you are crucifying Christ.
Man can use his chance only once, only once the Holy Spirit can be given. And who commits sin, while the Holy Spirit is in him, he is blaspheming against The Holy Spirit, and the Spirit departs from him. That is what Heb. 6:4-6 is talking about.
It is black and white, you are either saved and kept by the Spirit from sin, or you are unrepented sinner who is deceived about salvation.
Hebrew 6:4-6
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him”to public disgrace.
– Greetings to you, and to all!
Eric…said..if st John says that Who is born of God is righteous like He is righteous, then you better not call His righteousness “filthy rag”…Amen!
Ellen: The Bible does NOT teach “cheap grace”—that is the erroneous teaching that we can deliberately keep on sinning and expect that we are saved.
There is no such thing as “cheap grace”. Even if men make up that term, there is no such thing. It isn’t for sale. It never was. It never will be. You can’t pay for it. By putting the word “cheap” next to the word “grace” – completely changes the meaning of the word “grace.”
Romans 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
A true child of God, one that has been born from above, will naturally want to please his Father. He now has the seed (the Word of God), the Tree of Life living inside him. The fruit is produced naturally. A changed life is the fruit.
We are told in scripture in 2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?
Hi Jayna,
You said: “There is no such thing as “cheap grace”. Even if
men make up that term, there is no such thing. It isn’t for sale. It never was. It never will be. You can’t pay for it. By putting the word ‘cheap’ next to the word ‘grace’ – completely changes the meaning of the word ‘grace.’ ”
Sorry that I wasn’t clearer, Jayna. My point is that if people keep in deliberately sinning, they are acting as though grace is cheap—not that it ever could be. I agree—there is no such thing as “cheap grace”. It is just a manner of speaking—will try to avoid miscommunication like that in the future. I totally agree with the rest of your comment too. 🙂
Jayna,
Ellen only described by “cheep grace” what people did out of grace. Grace become very cheep, but is not.
I understand that GRACE is FREE gift, but it will cost you a lot, because requires total denial of self, and that is not easy nor free to follow Christ mean to “pick up a cross”. Jesus said: ” You will cry and lament, but the world will rejoice” that is not easy, and it will bring JOY, but not at ones, it takes to shed some tears too, and I hope that is what Ellen mean.
That is how I see “cheep grace” where people want to sin and be saved to the same time!
“Cheep grace” is very good expression.
– greetings to you!
Eric,
You have derailed the topic to now include an endless, circular discussion on salvation vs. works. The article was about two men staging their own arrest. Did the men “sin” Eric, when they intentionally failed to obtain a permit? Did they sin when they refused to heed the advice of their former pastor to change their methods of evangelism? Did they sin when they refused to listen to the arresting officer and leave property? Did they sin when in their hearts the true motivation was most likely publicity and monetary gain?
These are rhetorical questions that you can ponder Eric on your own.
The debate about Grace verses Works is really about REWARDS given out at the Bema judgment. Carrying on with this topic is pointless and futile.
SALVATION
Salvation is a free gift and can’t be earned by any type of work or sinless behavior (which doesn’t exist). Salvation is a gift of GRACE bestowed on the believer who “heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me”. Jesus said that this person will have everlasting life. (John 5:24)
Hearing and believing on God’s word here refers to the inerrant word of God based on ONLY the Bible and not of the traditions of men. Anyone who thinks that they can fundamentally believe the “basics” of Christianity, that is, believe that Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord yet ADD TO OR SUBTRACT FROM THE GOSPEL (and I’m thinking of Roman Catholics especially, but this also includes all cults that deviate from Scripture adding visions, dreams, human wisdom, tradition, etc.) are NOT SAVED.
If you believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and ALSO believe that “mary” is equal to Him, that necromancy is ok, that Rosary beads are acceptable, that paying a priest to do a “mass” for your to get you out of pergatory, that partaking in the blasphemous Eucharist is ok –then NO — you are not saved. These things are an abomination unto the Lord. For even Satan believes the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Is Satan saved?
Salvation IS based on what CHRIST HAS DONE and how we have responded to that. Period. There is nothing we can add to this as far as our own works, for all of our righteousness are but filthy rags.
“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me” (1 Cor. 15:10).
REWARDS
Rewards are a future attainment that the believer will receive AFTER THIS LIFE is over and can be earned by faithful service and good works while on earth.
These rewards and crowns will be given out at the Bema Seat judgment.
“And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou SHALT BE [future tense] RECOMPENSED AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST” (Luke 14:14).
Believers will receive rewards at the first resurrection, and for church-age believers this will take place at the rapture.
“For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS” (Matt. 16:27). “And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE” (Rev. 22:12).
“And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord YE SHALL RECEIVE THE REWARD of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ” (Col. 3:22-24).
Rewards can also be lost.
“Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown” (Rev. 3:11). “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward” (2 John 8).
“For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in My Name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward” (Mark 9:41).
Any debate on Salvation vs Works can only be answered by studying rewards and crowns.
Hi JM,
Nice post. I have always wondered why there has not been more teaching on rewards. I have prepared a teaching on “The Five Crowns”. At the risk of raising Ivar’s wrath for such a long post, I will copy and paste it here:
The Five Crowns
Nothing that we ever do can earn us a place in Heaven. Period. We all know that we are saved by grace through faith and that faith is itself, a gift of God. However, there is a classic teaching on the notion of rewards given out at the “Bema” seat of Christ. In ancient times, the “Bema” was a raised dais where a judge of a sporting match would sit to judge the competition. Alternatively, it could be a place of judgment.
The Bema Seat of Christ is also known as the Judgment Seat of Christ (see Romans 14: 10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10), the Bema Seat is described in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, “If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day [speaking of the Day of the Lord] will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”
The works built out of “gold, silver and costly stones” will be done for the purpose of glorifying (revealing) God. That is the proper motive to have in one’s heart and God, who sees into our hearts, knows what those motives are. They are also to be done in reliance upon the power of the Holy Spirit. All other works will be burnt and the believer “will suffer loss” of reward (NOT loss of salvation). It is important to note that when 2 Corinthians 5:10 speaks of the works being “good” or “bad” the word in Greek phaulon that is translated “bad” is usually used to describe something that is morally evil, but in the 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 passage, referring to the same judgment, we see that while the works may not be morally evil (as the world judges evil), they may, in fact, be worthless in God’s sight. So one can see that someone could be doing a charitable work for the purpose of gaining the approval of others (rather than out of love for God) and it would still be judged evil, in a spiritual sense, because the motivation was wrong. Doing works to gain the approval of men puts us in the category of the Pharisees and other unbelievers. In some circumstances, it might even put us in the category of Ananias and Saphira (and we know what God did to them in His displeasure with their lying hypocrisy!) It is also very important to note that the Bema judgment is a very different judgment from the Great White Throne Judgment (see Revelation 20:11-15), which is largely a judgment of condemnation for those “whose names are not found in the Book of Life” and we know from Romans 8:1 that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
The Greek word stephanos (usually somewhat mistranslated “crown” in our English Bibles—it should really read “wreath” or even “medal” to give the proper connotation) is used in reference to these various rewards (as opposed to a diadem which is used in reference to a crown for a king). A stephanos was a “victor’s crown” given to a winner in an athletic competition and usually consisted of a simple laurel wreath. (Thus the Apostle Paul’s allusion to athletic competition in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, describing the “race” that believers run.) The five wreaths/medals that are mentioned are:
1) Crown of Righteousness, as in 2 Timothy 4:8. This is a reward given to those who have salvation and who look for and love the teaching of “the coming of Christ for His Bride.” It would be a reward given to all who are truly in Christ.
2) Crown of Glory (mentioned 1 Peter 5:2-4) is a special reward for the faithful, God-called pastor—that is a “shepherd” of the flock whether paid or unpaid. Elders and male or female “shepherds” would be eligible for this crown. That is why we are told in 2 Timothy 2:15, along with Timothy (here, the KJV probably says it best), “Study to show thyself approved to God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
3) Crown of Life, spoken of in James 1:12 (also called the “lover’s crown”) is given to those who open their hearts to the “pouring out of God’s love” and who then passionately love Him and His other children, pouring out their lives for Him—even under persecution.
4) Crown Imperishable (found in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27) given to those who are utterly devoted to loving and following Him—denying themselves anything that would hold back spiritual growth in themselves or fail to contribute to the Body of Christ (1 Timothy 6:19, Hebrews 11:24-29 and Hebrews 12:2) and see their bodies as “living sacrifices” for the Lord (Romans 12:1-2). They employ God’s strength to give materially to those in need—particularly those in Christ—while gladly denying themselves of pleasure and luxury in order to maximize their giving (one guesses that there will be a number of televangelists who have eliminated this possibility for themselves 😉
5) Finally, there is the Crown of Exultation (mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 2:19—also called the “soul-winners crown”) given to those who have been deeply humbled by seeing others receive salvation through their teaching and understand it for a transforming miracle that has been achieved by the power of the Holy Spirit. All of heaven will rejoice with those who are given the Crown of Exultation—there will be many there who will have been led to the foot of the Cross, by those receiving that crown.
So there you have it. The New Testament teaches that we should aspire to more than just heaven—we should aspire to spiritual victory over this world of darkness along with our Savior who has “overcome the world”. He is the Light of the World. Notice that none of the rewards are based on what has been done as much as what the believer has shown himself/herself to be.
One further note—just in case any would get the idea that they would have these crowns stacked on their heads and get to strut around forever in them, it should be understood that, as was the case with athletic competitions in ancient times, those believers achieving these rewards will place their “crowns” at the base of their King’s throne (as seen in Revelation 4:10. By the way, the Greek word used in that passage is stephanos).
From looking at the video, faith-freedom.com, etc. it does appear that they knew what would likely happen at the California DMV and had a camera on hand to record it. If it didn’t happen here I think you would find another video of a similar occurence involving the same people with the same faith-freedom.com reference at the end.
The freedom to preach the gospel is important. Groups that defend that right have my backing. What is questionable, I think the point of Ivar’s posting, is generating events, on purpose, not with the souls at present in mind, but the agenda.
Philippians 1:15-18
“It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”
That’s true, I hope none of us want to be of the suspect part and we will be able to recognize it.
An illustration of the Philippians 1:15-18 passage is a situation that a Christian friend recounted from her experience on a short-term mission trip to Russia. Seems that some of the Communist party bosses were experimenting with requiring study of the Bible by high school students, as a way of getting them to live more moral lives. Most of the teachers were atheists and did not even understand what they were teaching, but a number of their students became believers.
Another illustration of Philippians 1:15-18 is the two preachers shown in the video, so why does everyone here have a problem with them? How do we know if someone was saved at the DMV or not because of these 2 men? Men judge by appearance but God judges the heart. Nobody here can know what happened in the hearts of all those who were in line listening?
Eric,
[I am going to break my response into two postings in order to avoid having one impossibly long post.]
You said: “Before you repeat after those who love to sin, but have “0″ understanding, and for the justification of their sin they are taking out of context that single verse and say blasphemously against the Holy Spirit, that His righteousness is ‘filthy rag’ ”
It is not, “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” to recognize (as Isaiah did, by the way—He said, “I am a man of unclean lips” in Isaiah 6:5) that we are sinful people. It is merely being humble and acknowledging that we have no power within ourselves to keep from sinning.
You said: “Why wouldn’t you read that verse Is. 64:6 with it’s context?” I DID, Eric. Isaiah 64:5-6b says (in the NLT), “You welcome those who cheerfully do good, who follow godly ways. But we are not godly. We are constant sinners, so your anger is heavy on us. How can people like us be saved? We are all infected and impure with sin. When we proudly display our righteous deeds, we find they are but filthy rags.”
You said: “Isaiah is most certainly not talking about those who are walking with God, and are born again, washed by the Blood of Lord Jesus Christ, and baptized with His Holy Spirit, as those who are the “filthy rags”.”
Isaiah did not say that PEOPLE were “filthy rags” but rather the righteous acts that we do in our own fleshliness are but filthy rags. And he includes himself in the “we”.
You said: “Ellen, if st John says that Who is born of God is righteous like He is righteous, then you better not call His righteousness ‘filthy rag’. ”
As I said before, we have been DECLARED righteous–just as Abraham was for believing God. Why would we need Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father if we automatically become non-sinners when we first believe?
You said: “What makes you think that process of sanctification must be accompaniment with sins?”
Because it is. Hebrews 4, in discussing the High Priestly status of Jesus, says that, “This High Priest of ours understands our WEAKNESSES, for He faced all the same temptations we do, yet He did not sin.” Why do we need a High Priest if we are capable of completely and permanently avoiding all sin once we come to Christ?
You said: “…how can he be pure vine, and we unclean with sin branches? – you are not making any sense?”
That is what Jesus SAID—He said that the Father will cut away any branch that does not bear fruit and prune productive vines so that they will produce even more fruit. (John 15:2)
You said: “We are born sinners, and conviction of the Holy Spirit is bringing us to repentance once, and after we repent, and are gifted with the presents of the Holy Spirit in us. He is there as God’s SEED to KEEP us from SINNING, and we will not keep nor fall into sin, because ‘stronger is He who is in us then he who is in the world’.”
First of all, it is not “stronger” but rather “greater” (a small point but let’s get the quote right). No, you have missed the significance of the foot-washing sequence in John 13. Why must we must continuously wash each other’s feet if we remain totally clean at all times? Jesus admonished us to wash each other’s feet in John 13:14. He said that we have been “bathed.” But our feet get dirty walking through this world. We are also told to “Confess your sins to one another” (James 5:16) Why would we be told to do this if we did not continue to sin sometimes? James 5:14 says that, “…anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven.”
O! Ellen, Ellen,
You said:
“Why would we need Jesus to be our Advocate before the Father if we automatically become non-sinners when we first believe?”
Because believing is just the beginning, believing alone will not save you, but receiving the Holy Spirit and by His POWER we are saved.
James 2:19:21
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for WHAT HE DID when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?”
By the way Abraham was considered righteous, AFTER he DONE WORK os putting his son on the altar, it is not I saying that, James said that if you don’t put your faith into practice, your faith is worthless.
SO!!!
James is saying that you do need works to be saved !!!
And Ellen
“Who is born of God SIN NOT, because the SEED of God IS in him, and he CAN NOT sin”
If I am wrong then the apostle John is wrong, because I am repeating after him !!!
That was not possible in Isaiah days, so their righteousness WAS “filthy rag”, they all needed Saviour, but didn’t have.
But we do have Saviour, and we who are saved have His Spirit.
But our righteousness is like His righteousness, because He lives in us !!!.
READ it again
1John 3:7-8
7.) Little children, LET NO ONE deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous, JUST AS HE is righteous.
8.) He WHO SINS IS OF THE DEVIL, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might DESTROY the works of the devil.”
WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES to Be in you, HE destroy the sin within you. That is the MANIFESTATION of the HOLY SPIRIT being in you !!!
That is not preaching salvation based on our own human works, but rather Salvation by the POWER of the Spirit that is given to us, We on our own have 0 power, but after —> The Spirit comes to abode within us HE is the POWER IN US.<—- that is what John is saying !!!
But obviously you have HIM not, AND YOU HAVE NO POWER WITHIN YOU TO STOP SINNING, that's why you keep on sinning and that's why your righteousness is filthy rag.
Eric,
1 John was written in part to dispel the gnostic teachings that were beginning to infect the very early Church. You can tell this because in the first chapter, John responds to those gnostics who were saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh–that He was merely a “projection from heaven”. John said in 1 John 1:1b,”We saw Him with our own eyes and touched Him with our own hands.” He was also responding to those gnostics who were saying that “the more sin, the more grace” and urging their followers to practice sin. The key word in the passage from 1 John that you cite is “practice”. The Apostle Paul also responded to gnostics when he said, in Romans 6:1-2, “1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?” In the early Church, Irenaeus (a disciple of Polycarp who, in turn, was a disciple of the Apostle John) reported on five different types of gnosticism—one group of which was encouraging followers to “sin with abandon”.
You are completely distorting the Scriptures and you are being quite prideful in your attitude. Please refrain from saying condescending things like “O! Ellen, Ellen” with others—it is unseemly. I am not going to continue in this because it seems quite fruitless. I’m just going to say one more thing. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (if you look at the context of Jesus’ remarks on the subject) is that of attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan—NOT what you have represented. You are needlessly causing weaker Christians to doubt their salvation. 1 John was specifically written to reassure Christians in the Church, “I write this to you who believe in the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life.” There are twenty specific marks of a Christian contained in 1 John—NONE of which is sinlessness! (to that point, look at 1John 1:8)
[Response to Eric, Part II]
Eric, you said: “There is no such thing as repent, confess, be saved, and slip into sin, and be convicted, and repent, and confess, and be forgiven, and slip into sin again, and so on over, and over. That is Catholic ‘yo-yo’ theology, as long you go to confession once a week, you are okay, you can keep on sinning as long you are confessing regularly.”
I DID NOT say that you were in and out of salvation! I think that I have shown by the previous responses that I do not believe that.
You said: “…once you are saved, and receive the Holy Spirit, He is strong to be able to keep you saved from sinning.” While it is true that He is FAR greater than we can even imagine, we are puny and weak and prone to failures.
“The truth is that people think they have the Spirit, are “born again” but they are not, they only think, because the pastor taught them that after they say the ‘sinners prayer’ they are ‘born again’.”
I would agree with you on this. Intellectual assent is not the same as true conversion. The Book of James tells us that even the demons know who God is. But they do not worship or obey Him.
You said: “Man can use his chance only once, only once the Holy Spirit can be given. And who commits sin, while the Holy Spirit is in him, he is blaspheming against The Holy Spirit, and the Spirit departs from him. That is what Heb. 6:4-6 is talking about.”
No—Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would never leave us in John 14:16. That is NOT what Hebrews 6:4-6 is teaching. The Jewish Christians to whom the writer of Hebrews is speaking, were questioning whether they should go back to rabbinic Judaism and he is pleading with them to “grow up” (mature in Christ) rather than turning their backs on what they had been taught. He then says in Hebrews 6:9 that he doesn’t believe that they are unsaved.
Eric, you are inadvertently preaching a works-based faith.
NO, I am NOT
I am preaching HOLY SPIRIT POWER in you doing the WORKS,
WHO comes to abode in you and to destroys sin in your life, and IMPUTS Jesus Christ RIGHTEOUSNESS onto you, by which and ONLY by which man can be saved, and be able to do works of Christ !!!
Romans 4:20-22
Abraham with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.”
Abraham first believes, and then RIGHTEOUSNESS was IMPUTED to him.
It takes first to believe, and obey,
Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?
Whenever you come to faith, and to do what Christ requires you to do. That is practice all the teachings of Christ, feed the hungry, wash the feet of your brethren et cetera. But first of all repent of your sin, and do good, then and only then you will be gifted with Spirit by the POWER of Which we can become righteous, just us Christ is righteous. And we can do works which Christ Himself was doing !!!
John 14:12
“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.” 🙂
Jesus and the Decisples said “Repent and Believe”….he said nothing about ”a Sinners Prayer”…many say they have said the ”Sinners Prayer”..I could go into this further but I really am not interested in getting in to this banter between Christians…
Ellen
where did you take that from:
“The Jewish Christians to whom the writer of Hebrews is speaking, were questioning whether they should go back to rabbinic Judaism” ?????
That is somebody commentary, opinion or interpretation, which is of the devil to destroy the truth!
While it can be one of many reasons why people do blaspheme the Holy Spirit. To say that is the only case is deceptive.
Mark 3:28-29 and Hebrew 6:4-6 speaks about the same unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit
Mark 3;28-29
“I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.”
Hebrew 6:4-6
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
Matthew 12:32
“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Why it is that all sin, even sin against Jesus Christ will be forgiven, but sin against Holy Spirit will be not forgiven?
Because people who have not the Holy Spirit are of no understanding, and are still in darkness, and not redeemed, there fore they can repent and can be forgiven, and after being forgiven they are redeemed and Holy Spirit is given to abide within them, and they are being brought to LIGHT, and become partakers of heavenly power given by the Holy Spirit.
That is what Jesus was crucified for.
So whoever go back to sin from which he was redeemed from him the Holy Spirit departs, and it is OVER for that man.
Because Jesus Christ was crucified one once, and who would want forgiveness once more, he would need to have Christ to be crucified once again. And that is “open shame”, and Jesus Christ will not be ridiculed or mocked.
You have a choice to believe otherwise, but woe on to you!
Are you out of your mind Ellen ???
Are you saying that John letters do not apply to us, but only to the “gnostic”? But where did he say that?
You are reading some crazy commentaries girl!
You said:
“1 John was written in part to dispel the gnostic teachings that were beginning to infect the very early Church. You can tell this because in the first chapter, John responds to those gnostics who were saying that Jesus did not come in the flesh–that ”
Does it mean, that only amongst gnostic there are children of the devil, and children born of God ?
Only for the gnostic Jesus Christ was crucified?
Read it again, does it look to you, that John is concern only about the gnostic not to be deceived, by calling them “little children”?
1.John 3:7-9
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [a]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [c]born of God.
Does it mean, that Christ appeared for the purpose to destroy the works of the devil amongst gnostics, and amongst us He will the devil do his works?
You are in dark, dark corner Ellen !!!
You are one of the weak christians who are thinking that they are saved, but still under the law of sin and the slavery to the devil.
Cray to God, and He will get you out of you darkness, you never have been saved, so you will be forgiven, and saved, just admit that you need God’s mercy, forgiveness, and POWER of the Holy Spirit!
And God will be GRACIOUS TO YOU !
Dear Eric.
Shalom.
You wrote to Ellen.
Are you saying that John letters do not apply to us, but only to the “gnostic”? But where did he say that?
You are reading some crazy commentaries girl!
My comment:
That is not what Ellen said. She said that the gospel writes wrote to people who had misunderstood. Like you. The message that underlines misunderstandings is a message to us all, so we can correct our ways.
You simply refuse to accept that there are preachers of false Jesus-es, who walks in counterfeit “holy spirit’s”, and present to us a “different gospel”.
There are plenty of “gnostic copies of Jesus”. One of the most obvious of them, is the “Jesus” of Benny Hinn. Still hundreds of thousands of people hail this copy-cat, and refuse to listen to warnings, nor examples of false prophecies, not even the looting of money in the name of “god”.
Even the Word of Faith teacher Ulf Ekman of Sweden, who for many years embraced Benny Hinn, had to warn his Church of the falsehood of Benny Hinn.
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/ulf-ekman-on-benny-hinn-he-preaches-a-gnostic-jesus/
Ellen,
Read that warning:
Revelation 3:17
“For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.”
It applies to last days “weak” christians who have no POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT neither are SAVED, but who are proudly saying that they are born again, know, and have the truth, and they lack nothing, but they are deceived thinking that it is okay to be saved and to practice occasionally sin, twisting the word of God and mixing them with commentaries. But they are poor and weak christians without truth or power, running the broad way toward destruction.
Do not be amongst them Ellen!
Dear Ivar,
How do you understand
1. John 3:7-9?
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [a]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [b]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [c]born of God.
And:
Romans 6:18
“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”
Can you be slave to sin one day, and the next slave to righteousness? and then go back to serve some sin, and repent and serve righteousness again?
Does such “yo-yo” theology work for you?
It is impossible to serve two masters, said Our LORD Jesus Christ!
Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Idol”.
You cannot be filed with the Holy Spirit and hate not sin,
You will stop sinning, because the Holy Spirit has the POWER to stop you, and if you LOVE GOD and Jesus Christ, you will not sin, but he will not stop you against your will, and if you do sin, the Holy Spirit will be offended, and depart from you, and you will never be forgiven.
You can disagree, but the truth remains true, that it is impossible to be holy and sin.
The Holy Spirit sanctifies, that mean makes you holy.
Eric,
You are twisting my words to say something that I did not say. It is NOT okay to plan and practice sin. Those who love their sin are in the darkness still. If we are truly in Christ, we will loathe all of our sins, past, present and future. I will not be responding anymore to your twisted nonsense but I will ask you one last question: Can you honestly say that you have never once sinned since you became a Christian? If you say yes, the Apostle John would call you a liar (based on 1 John 1:8 and 2:1). If you say no, you have contradicted what you have been preaching here.
I say YES, and NO
I was sinner and lier, before I knew Christ, before I died to sin, and before I was set free from the law of sin.
Yes, before I realized I need Christ i was thinking, that I never sinned, I was totally oblivious about my sins, and even I believed that there is no such thing as a sin. I thought of myself that i am good person.
All up until I learned the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel convicted me of my sin, and I did cry to God on my knees for many many days and nights I morned for all my previous sin, because I was guilty of many sins. And God show me His GRACE, and forgive me my sin, all my transgressions and offenses against His law, and I was so penetrated by His Lowing kindness, and I know that I baptized by His Holy Spirit, and become born again.
I know who I was before, and I know who I am now, I do not offend God with braking His law any more, and I do know what I am talking about, and more so I do know what the apostle John is talking about. I use to be a child of the devil totally oblivious, and I was in total darkness about it, but now I am child of God, I do walk in light, and I do know the truth, because the Spirit of Truth is with me, and I know I can be sin free, I do HATE sin to the point that I would never sin.
You don’t have to believe it, but that is the truth.
1.John 1:8 did refer to me once when I was thinking of myself that i do not sin, but now 1.John 3:9 refers to me, I am born of God, and HIS SEED is saving me from sin. I am not strong on my own, i know the Holy Spirit is my strength day and night.
Hallelujah to the Father, and to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ !! – AMEN !
Nice dodge, Eric. But I will ask you again, Can you honestly say that you are sinless now? Then what further need do you have for Jesus? Since you seem to be putting yourself right up there with Him, I will ask if you never have a moment of pride or arrogance? Remember that Jesus commended the tax collector for his humility and criticized the Pharisee for his haughtiness. I’m wondering if your family would agree that you are sinless?
The Apostle Paul called himself “wretched” and “the chief of sinners” and in Romans 7: 14-20, he said:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.” .
Are you saying that you are able to obey better than Paul was—in fact, able to obey perfectly? He asked those who were saying that they were “followers of Paul,” “Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul.” (1 Cor. 1:13) I think the Apostle Paul would have been horrified to suggest that he approached Our Lord’s sinless perfection.
So Ivar, and Ellen,
You both are either never saved, still in darkness, never partaking of the Holy Spirit, and still allegeable for salvation if you repent and be forgiven, you still can be baptized by the Holy Spirit and set free from sin. Which I truly believe that is the case.
Don’t take that as a offense, but pray to the Lord Jesus Christ, and be humble about it, it is serious, we live in times of great deception, and many are deceived to think that they are saved while they are not.
OR
You were once born again received forgiveness and the Holy Spirit, but you sinned and lost your salvation for ever !
Eric,
P.S. You said, “I say YES, and NO.”
Then I think the Apostle John would call you a liar and it would seem that you have contradicted yourself.
Ellen,
I have very nice family, we are blessed with The Lord Peace, and there are no fights, or any ungodly behavior.
you said:
“The Apostle Paul called himself “wretched” and “the chief of sinners” and in Romans 7: 14-20, :”
Paul was talking about his past, I call myself to be wrenched in my past as well, and he was talking putting himself in people place, and we do that all the time.
Paul after his conversion was Holy Spirit filled and there was no sin in him.
You said:
“We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.”
There is no way, that apostle Paul was “not spiritual” !!!
So he must have say that hypothetically, because Paul was very much so spiritual:
Just read that, what he said about himself:
Galatians 1:11-12
“For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Now Ellen, if Jesus said that:
Luke 17:21
“… the kingdom of God is within you.”
and
1.Peter 1:16
“…for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
It can mean only one thing, that who is Born Again of The Holy Spirit, he can be holy and sinless, and “righteous as He is righteous”, by the POWER of HIS SPIRIT
True that Jesus said He will not leave us, but we can leave Him, and He will not stop us, that is difference.
And if we sin it is not him who leave, but us who left Him to sin.
I am not saying that I am out of the test, as long I am alive I can fall away, and loose my salvation, the Holy Spirit is not holding anyone captive. So I better be humble, and no one can tell, but God alone if i am or nor.
You asked me so I give you an answer, what is wrong with that?.
If you are in darkness you are not sure of anything, but if you walk in light, you know the Holy Spirit and how He is guiding you.
Ellen,
you can question anything you want to, but just because my testimony does not sit well with you, or with common theology of many “born again, weak christians” does not mean that I am proud, because you said so, and just because I gave you answer it does not mean I am like the tax collector.
what would you say if I didn’t give you answer?
And beside by giving you my testimony I do give glory to Jesus Christ, because He shown me great Mercy, and I am thankful for His mercy.
You said:
But I will ask you again, Can you honestly say that you are sinless now? Then what further need do you have for Jesus? Since you seem to be putting yourself right up there with Him,
If I am sin free I still need Jesus, to be ONE with HIM (John 17, the whole chapter) And I am not putting myself rigth there with Him, but He did it:
John 17:20-21
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me”.
If I sin, I will not be ONE with Him, but I will “put Him to shame”, and loose salvation.
I have to live my life in unity with HIM, and do His will, and remain faithful.
I didn’t say that I am better then Paul, or that he is my saviour, but I do know I have the same Spirit that Paul had, and I am One with Paul in Christ as he is One with Jesus Christ, according to our Lord Prayer in John 17
I pray and hope, that you may become one with Christ and with Paul and all for who Jesus was crucified – as well.
– blessings to you!
Eric
Shalom.
You wrote:
Paul was talking about his past, I call myself to be wrenched in my past as well, and he was talking putting himself in people place, and we do that all the time.
My comment:
This is wrong, Eric. Paul says: What a wretched man I Am. What I am suppose to do, I am not able to do. In this context, Paul is not speaking about the past. All men struggle with sin. We do mistakes, and need to repent. Every day of our life.
Only Jesus is without sin. We are not. To sin is to miss the target. We all do that, also after we have received the Holy Spirit.
The theology of Hinn, Copland and Hagin is based on the Word of Faith. These men hide their sins, and deny the fact that man is a saved sinner. This kind of false theology leads people into the trap of pride.
Ivan,
you just wont give up your rights to sin – right?
you are free to sin all you want too, more power to you if that’s what you want!
– shalom
Dear Eric.
Shalom.
You wrote:
you just wont give up your rights to sin – right?
you are free to sin all you want too, more power to you if that’s what you want!
My comment:
The Word of Faith teach wrong about sin.
1. Have you never told a white lie, by mistake, since you were saved?
2. Are you able to never gossip, or say a single negative line about another human being?
3. Have you never done anything wrong, so you have to go and ask for forgiveness?
4. Do you always know the perfect will of God?
The World of Faith teach about humans as “little Messiahs”. That we are like “gods”. This is another form of paganism presented as Christianity. It is serpent theology, that started in the Garden of Eden.
https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2009/08/18/bible-lesson-10-word-of-faith-teachers-we-are-like-gods-bible-man-is-a-saved-sinner/
Eric,
You said: “…you can question anything you want to, but just because my testimony does not sit well with you…”
It isn’t that it doesn’t sit well with ME, Eric—I am no one special. I’m just one beggar telling other beggars where to find food. The problem that I’m having is that your theology doesn’t sit well with what the Apostles taught in the Bible.
You said: “I have very nice family, we are blessed with The Lord Peace, and there are no fights, or any ungodly behavior.”
I’m sure you have a very nice family—so do I, praise God. But, that is not what I asked—I asked if your family (and I hope they would be honest in their appraisal) would confirm that you are sinless?
Ellen
you asked,
“I’m sure you have a very nice family—so do I, praise God. But, that is not what I asked—I asked if your family (and I hope they would be honest in their appraisal) would confirm that you are sinless?”
BUT
If you knew the Gospel well, you would not even ask such a question. The family may or may not agree with you, – according to Lord Jesus statment:
Luke 12:52
“For from now on, a household of five will be divided, three against two, two against three”.
– greetings to all!
Eric,
You said: “Ivan, you just wont give up your rights to sin – right?
you are free to sin all you want too, more power to you if that’s what you want!”
That is theologically nonsensical, Eric. We have no “right to sin”—never did have. God gave us no such “right”—neither the unbeliever nor the believer. True, He gave us free will but sinning is an abuse of the free will that He gave. However, we are weak and we sometimes fall into sin. It seems that you believe that one sin would send a believer to hell. Remember that Jesus said that even thinking a lustful thought was sin. He also said that slandering someone was a “vile” sin and to suggest that a child of God is on the way to hell is about as bad a slander as I can imagine. I thank God that He is much more merciful than you apparently are, Eric.
No, just a minute, Ellen,
You are right!
God never give people right to sin, BUT people take the right and claim this right anyway, and having free will they “can” sin, that is they are able to sin, and God will not stop them.
Whoever walk with Christ do not sin if the Spirit is in him and with him. Because he is a Temple of God, and sin in the temple is an abomination – right? or wrong? Therefore it is abomination that child of god would “occasionally” practice sin.
That is a misapplication of that passage, Eric. It is referring to the fact that some in a family might be saved and others unsaved. Are you saying that some in your family are saved and others unsaved? Alright then, let’s just ask the ones who are saved, if they think you are sinless. 🙂
Well, if some member are saved, and other not, there will be devision, and lack of harmony.
In my family we pray together, and yes my family think and know that i do not sin. there is one member of my family that does practice sin, but the rest members of my family are walking with the Lord and do not sin, and we are in harmony with each other, praying with supplication for that one member who is practicing “occasionally” sin, believing that God will bring that person to his knee, and save him from the law of sin.
Eric,
You said: “True that Jesus said He will not leave us, but we can leave Him, and He will not stop us, that is difference.
And if we sin it is not him who leave, but us who left Him to sin.”
My reply: So, did the Apostle Paul “leave Jesus” since he admitted that he struggled with sin in Romans 7? Why then would he turn around and say in Romans 8, “…nothing in all Creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
At another time, Eric, you said: “So whoever go back to sin from which he was redeemed from him the Holy Spirit departs, and it is OVER for that man.”
My reply: But Jesus said:”I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you FOREVER [emphasis mine]; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
By the way, you know that I was not speaking of “going back to sin”. We have already established that those who love their sin are still walking in darkness. I’m talking about the occasional greedy or covetous thought, the explosive rage you might feel against another driver who you off in traffic and endangers the lives of your family, etc.
Ellen you said:
I’m talking about the occasional greedy or covetous thought, the explosive rage you might feel against another driver who you off in traffic and endangers the lives of your family, etc.
In Galatians 5:16-21 Paul says:
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I’m not talking about making a habit of all those listed sins but rather the occasional slip into the reactions of the “old man” that you were. You said that you “fail” sometimes—what does that mean? I think it is easy to dismiss actual sin as a “failure” for Charismatics. I used to see it all the time when I was in a Charismatic church. Many of the women were very gossipy and said mean things about some of the other women—yet they claimed that it wasn’t sin at all but “concern” for those women. If they got angry with someone who “mistreated” them (no matter how small the “mistreatment”, they would merely say that anger over injustice was not sin.
By the way, I see it as sin that you slandered Ivar, when you said this: ““Ivan, you just wont give up your rights to sin – right?
you are free to sin all you want too, more power to you if that’s
what you want!” I think you should ask God and Ivar to forgive you.
You said Ellen:
You said Ellen:
“By the way, you know that I was not speaking of “going back to sin”. We have already established that those who love their sin are still walking in darkness.”
YES and NO
There are many sines that people love to do like sins of pleasure, but there are many more sins that sinners hate, and still sin. like fights, or violence especially against their own children, or drinking, or many other habits, that they do and even they are disgusted with themselves. There are also sins that they are not aware of at all, like pride, worldly ambitions or social behavior like tolerance of unclean talk, or all kind of blasphemous behavior.
It is because they are under the law of sin. If they didn’t surrender their will to Jesus Christ Gospel’s teachings, they will never find peace with themselves, much less with other or with God and Christ Himself. And the Holy Spirit is nowhere near them, much less with them or in them.
James 4:8
“Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.”
There are many christians who never surrendered to Christ, They never read the bible for them selves as a way to find out what they need to do, but they “accepted Jesus to their hearts”, which is totally meaningless if they do not obey His Gospel, but they have the nerves to claim being “born again”, but with their lives they are walking talking proof that they are still under the law of sin.
And not wonder they are trying, but unsuccessfully to stop sin, and they do some changes in their lives, but the law of sin still rules in their heart.
People know so much, they can quote the whole bible, but they don’t have the simple understanding of what is the law of God, and the law of sin and the devil, and they are loosing the battle, they never came from under the authority of hte devil.
They take out of context the verse that “we are not under the law”, and they go on living lawless life, still practicing the law of sin.
Problem is that the law of sin which is the law of selfishness is in them from their birth, so they do not need to learn they know it and practice it naturally and spontaneously without any effort.
BUT
In order to belong to Christ they have to learn NEW LAW of selflessness, (which is nor was never new, but new to them) that Christ was teaching,
Jesus Christ was THE TEACHER and MASTER in the law of God, He didn’t come to do away with God’s law He came to teach it.
And now He sends the Holy Spirit to teach us how to put into practice the teachings of the gospel of Jesus Christ
Anyway Jesus said:
“The way is narrow and few are finding it”
– greetings and blessings to you all
Yea, I know what you mean Ellen,
Romans 7: 6
“For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”
When Paul say “but now we are released..” he is saying about after repentance “we are new creature”, all the law of sin does not have authority. Means that the law, the nature is dead, and man is in peace with his own conscience, and through that peace with everything that used to cause the natural passions to rage.
It is because of Adam we are all born under the authority of the devil, and we are slaves of his law, and his law say: sin, be angry, be jealous, be selfish, be proud, be in control, or be in conflict, don’t let them take what is yours, don’t let them humiliate you ect
And Jesus Christ came to set us free from that law, and if we comply with HIs gospel if we allow His teaching to confront us, and if we sincerely surrender to selflessness, he will be faithful to set us free.
I may sound proud, but it is not pride, it is testimony, and truth, that I never do get rage at any driver, i may say “O dear Lord what is wrong with him or her” and in my mind I see that person not as a intruder, violator or reckless, but I see it as someone who is in some kind of trouble or hurry, or something that helps me to understand and be forgiving even before any rage would want to take me over, I see it as it was not at purpose, but accidentally, and I do not get rage, but I do what I can to give that person right of way, to be helpful. But if there is no need, or if that person is rude on top of his recklessness my heart my pound but with no anger, but with all my mind I am at alert to be in control, always give the other person benefit of the doubt that he is not at fault, but it just happen. And I am with the HELPER in me in total control over my emotions and my state of mind. It takes very little to control the natural instincts, but it takes to surrender and deny self.
but on the other hand not everything is sin. In many cases loosing control over emotions is fault but not a sin as braking the law of God in any was, but rather imperfection in the gifts of the Spirit of which the scripture says that
“righteous men fall seven times a day…”
That however is no good, and righteous man need to be diligent in surrendering to the Holy Spirit, and do not grieve Him, so that the Holy Spirit will be able to do what He is sent to do.
1.Peter 4:18
And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
No complying with the Holy Spirit is grievous to Him, and that is not good.
Eph. 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
Because the Holy Spirit guidance is not playing around, but it is serious way of being alert to His corrections, to be able to grow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit
Because he may even come against you and chastise you.
Heb. 12:6
..”because the Lord disciplines those He loves, and He punishes everyone he accepts as a son.”
1 Cor. 14:1
“Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.”
So, the Holy Spirit will guide you to control your emotions, that is one out of many things that the Holy Spirit does when He comes to be with you, but you have your part in that.
Lord Jesus said
Matthew 26:41
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak.”
The Holy Spirit guidance is at times painful and many people reject the guidance, because He will require selflessness, and that is not easy to surrender to, but who is humble enough to surrender to the law of selflessness he will hear the voice of the Spirit very vividly, and will grow in the gifts, and power of the Spirit according to the degree of surrender.
But if who opposes the guidance, and refuses to follow, he will slip into sin, and will not know when and how he lost it.
Matthew 25:44
they will say: When did we see you hungry and didn’t feed you?”
The way of following the Spirit of God is narrow and very few are able to remain under His guidance. And not that He has no will or power, but because people are to proud to give up the things of this life, and the biggest challenge out of many is not money, but self interest which includes ambition and all kind of prosperity including even family.
The parable reflects how many way people are not willing or able to follow the Spirit of God Matthew 13:1-9, 18-23.
– Greetings and peace to you!
Dear Ivar
You asked me:
1. Have you never told a white lie, by mistake, since you were saved?
2. Are you able to never gossip, or say a single negative line about another human being?
3. Have you never done anything wrong, so you have to go and ask for forgiveness?
4. Do you always know the perfect will of God?
1) What is white lie? I do not lie.
but not to tell the truth is not sin, you are not obligated to tell the truth in the law of God, People are trying to make you believe that you sin if you don’t tell the truth, even contrary to the 5’th amendment
2) yes, I hate to gossip, and I do not gossip and it is east not to, in fact it would be pain to try to gossip to me.
3) o yes I did ask many times for forgiveness, but what I did was not sin. I asked for forgiveness for example because I accidentally slammed the door in front of someone, but it was not sin whatsoever.
4) I do know what my obligations are, and I am on alert constantly listening to the correction of the Holy Spirit, so He is helping me be aware of what is expected from me by My Heavenly Father.
And by the way, I do fail here and there, And i am working on not repeating this failures. the fact that we keep on failing, but not sining, is simply because our knowledge is limited, and we can’t predict always consequences, and that causes us to do things, that do not turn as we would hoped they would.
But I do not sin. Sin is act of selfishness or act which brakes the law or commandment of God.
I am set free – hallelujah to God and His Holy SON Jesus Christ!! – from the law of sin and selfishness, and ones you are free from self, you see the whole world from different prospective, and the knowledge of God’s law becomes your new nature, and it is really easy to live sin free life.
Our “weak christian culture” is soaked with damnation of sin free life. People and so called “christians” more condemn those who are sin free then those who are sinful. like if sin free life is a curse or something. While in fact it is the other way around.
– greetings and peace to all!
Eric,
You said: “…there are many more sins that sinners hate, and still sin. like fights, or violence especially against their own children, or drinking, or many other habits, that they do and even they are
disgusted with themselves.”
First let me say that anyone who harms an innocent child is definitely not in submission to Christ and is therefore not a Christian. There is a difference between having a distaste for one’s behavior and having true sorrow over sin. An atheist could be disgusted by his/her own behavior and obviously be quite far from God.
You said: “…If they didn’t surrender their will to Jesus Christ Gospel’s teachings…”
I think I told you before of an “Christian atheist” of my acquaintance. He claimed that he always followed Christ’s teachings (although I did point out to him that he ignored the one about, “You shall love the Lord your God…”). We do not submit our will to teachings, we submit it to Him. When we fail to daily submit our will to Him (indeed, even moment to moment), we are probably headed for trouble. It is not just a one-time event. It is an on-going struggle with the selfish, sinful nature which will not leave us until we die and go to Paradise. That is the way that the Gospel writers portrayed it and you are misleading people if you are presenting it any other way.
Ellen,
You said:
First let me say that anyone who harms an innocent child is definitely not in submission to Christ and is therefore not a Christian.
Don’t be OVER zealous!
I only wanted to tell you that sinner who are NOT christians do not always “love their sins”, that all !!
Christians who are told that they are “born again” continue on practicing sin, because they are told that it is impossible not to sin, and so they are okay with sinning !!!
It look as if you didn’t read with care what i am writing?
You just keep on believing that you can sin until you die, but you may just be surprised not to end up in paradise 🙂
Eric said: “…you may just be surprised not to end up in paradise 🙂 ”
The “accuser of the brethren” says much the same thing.
Dear Eric
Shalom.
I feel this is a rather fruitless debate. This is not a championship in defamation. It is not the one who accuse others that is going to win the debate.
I do not give anyone permission to sin. God hates sin. That is why He has given man a chance to get sins forgiven. Past, present and future.
To sin is to miss the mark. We all do that. If we hide our sins, and claim to be saved and sinless, we only deceive our selves. It is better to say that Jesus is always right. I am wrong, and I do commit mistakes. I am in need of His mercy and grace everyday of my life.
When i look in the mirror, I can see a saved sinner. Still incomplete, in my walk with Him to become Holy. When God my Father looks at me, He can only see the nailed and pierced hands of His Son, my savior and my God.
Eric. If you consider other to be better then your self, you will not end your life in the camp of the hypocrites.
Dear Ellen,
You are entertaining a false prophet who is MEDIA HUNGRY and still trying to make a name for himself and his blasphemous doctrines by giving this so much time.
This is “Way of the Master” Kirk Cameron false teaching that is a disgrace and makes a mockery of God’s word. Just as the arrest was staged, “Eric’s” goal here is to keep himself in the limelight to seek attention for his phony church and staged arrest.
As was mentioned earlier — the arrest happened one year ago. The derailment of the topic is just another tactic of these two men — but has successfully revealed just how convoluted, false, and revolting this so-called “sin-less” teaching is. Pure ignorance of the Bible and undiluted blasphemy!
From: news4themasses.wordpress.com
It seems as though, these two men who had been warned amply enough sought purposefully to get arrested and since being arrested are now trying to make a mockery of the system and a name for themselves as “persecuted” when in fact they are acting like fools.
They appear to be Media hungry, and seeking to make a name for themselves. It’s all highly political when you consider those who work for Advocates for Faith and Freedom and what their intentions truly are. I would not put it past these two and whomever they are taking their “legal” advice from to have staged the whole show.
Both Mackey and Coronado credit their education and preaching skills from the same style derived at Living Waters, better known to you as, “Way of the Master,” a ministry with Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort.
Ellen
you said:
By the way, I see it as sin that you slandered Ivar, when you said this: ““Ivan, you just wont give up your rights to sin – right?
you are free to sin all you want too, more power to you if that’s
what you want!” I think you should ask God and Ivar to forgive you.”
My respond:
Because it seams that Ivar defents right to “ocasional sin” by saying it is impossble not to sin
God hates sin – righ?
God set commandments and said: if you sin against them you will end up in hell.
Hell is menat for those who sin – right?
If “occasional sin” is not avoidable, then what is wrong with God? why He does require obedience while obediance and sinlessness is totaly impossible?
You all are reading too many commenteries, that are permiting “occasilanl” sin saying that only Jesus was sinless, but we all never will be like Jesus, therefore it is okay to sin, not to often, and not to harsh, but with moderation, and the only thing is that we need to confess them every time we sin, and He will be faithful to forgive them, because that what He is for.
Sin is seperating us from God, and the believe that it is imposible not to sin is only separating us from the guidence of the Holy Spirit, in order not to be “set free from the law of sin”
Jesus Christ is advocat when the devil trys to accuse us for what is not sin, because he is a lier, and he does what people do, accuse each other before they know the whole truth. Satan is acusing me for example for being proud, while I am testifying about the truth, just the way people do.
Now think about it.
If sameone truly sinnes the devil is not accusing him, because he would not want jesus to defent sinner, that would be the last thing that the devil would do for the sinner to be set free by Lord Jesus as our advocat. Whoever sinns, is condemn by God, not by the satan.
the scripture says, that:
Revelation 12:10
“For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.”
It does not say ‘accusor of the sinners’, who actually trully sin, but he is accusor of our brethren, meanig even the apostles and all who are in union with them, who are washed and set free from sin, who however fail and need to be defended by Christ Who does proof that the faling is not bracking God’s law or out of selfishness, but simply faults, or acsidents, that the devil was tring to trap them into sin, such faults that can be forgiven for the reasons of out limited knowledge of many things.
The devil know the POWER of Christ DEFENSE and he would not accuse his servants, he just want them in hell with out chance to be defended by Jesus Christ.
Well yo never heart anything like that, Truth is not popular, but all kinds of counerfits are in all kind of commenteries which you all are reading.
Just sit or knee down, and have a conversation with God, ask Him how come He forbits sin, and requir obediance while it is not achvable? Who it really mena to be “SET FREE from the law of sin” Why? How?
– greetings!
Thanks for the info, JM. I had always thought that Cameron and Comfort were orthodox (didn’t really investigate what they were saying) until recently. Cameron’s new movie, “Monumental”, is a real point of concern. It seems that the movie promotes idolatry. The “monument” that the movie touts throughout was erected by Freemasons! We are living in times of great apostasy. But, it had to happen before the Lord’s return, so we lift up our heads as redemption draws near. Amen?
In any case, I am done responding to nonsense. I only took on what he was saying for the sake of others who might be misled.
Ellen you are the one who is twisting and ling
Ellen said:
It is not just a one-time event. It is an on-going struggle with the selfish, sinful nature which will not leave us until we die and go to Paradise.
Eric says:
And you think, Ellen, you are going to enter Heaven being still selfish, sinful nature which will not leave you, but go with you to paradise ???
Selfishness is not fleshly nature, but an attitude and attribute of your soul.
Ellen, flesh is only doing and producing sin, but idea comes from your soul, and then flesh is producing immoral act or the desire of selfish soul.
The Lord Jesus said, that you don’t have to commit sin in flesh in order to sin, it is enough if your soul is unclean. So don’t think you will leave behind in your grave sinful flesh, and you will go with selfish and sinful soul, and be accepted in the Paradise.
Therefore I only am saying a warning to you, and to all who think the way do do:
Eric said:
“…You just keep on believing that you can sin until you die,
but you may just be surprised not to end up in paradise ”
Ellen said:
The “accuser of the brethren” says much the same thing.
Eric said:
Ellen don’t be ridiculous ?
that is not accustaton, but warning !!!!
You all are making Jesus Christ a lier, by stating that your sin is Okay with HIM !
Romans 7:14-25 NASB
“For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my
flesh the law of sin.”
Ellen,
You need to read from the beginning, because he is saying that
“having died to what we were held by.”
So he is telling backwards, beginning from being saved, and telling how it was with him before he was saved. When he was still controlled by flesh and was under the law of sin, how he didn’t want to sin, but he sinned anyway,
READ Romans 7: 5- 6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”
but Ellen,
you on purpose skipped Romans 7:5,- right?
OR you just don’t understand what you are reading !!!
Sin is abomination, God does forgive sin, but once, and man can not go back to practicing sin again. But if he does sin after he was washed by the Blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin, he is crucifying Christ once again, and that is sin unforgivable.
but every one has a chose to believe according to his will, so you can believe otherwise and we will see on the end who ends up where and with how many crowns 😉
Ivar,
Are you serious, you really believe that?
you said:
I do not give anyone permission to sin. God hates sin. That is why He has given man a chance to get sins forgiven. Past, present and future.
My respond:
If your future sin is forgiven then for ones there is no need to confess sin which is forgiven before is committed.
Because forgiveness erase them from the records, so if they are forgiven before committed, then they never even go into the records.
But the Bible says that Bog has a Book with all the records of all deeds good and bad of all man.
and if your future sin are forgiven, then you can go on and on and on sinning with no boundary, because if there are boundary, and No records, then “carouse my selfish and sinful soul there is no hell for me, Christ dismisses all my sin”
Bottom line Ivar what you are stating is: that there is no boundary, and you are free to sin “occasionally” with moderation of course?
Dear Eric
Shalom.
I have lost track of this debate, but will give a final try:
You wrote:
If your future sin is forgiven then for ones there is no need to confess sin which is forgiven before is committed.
My reply:
If future sin is not forgiven, people who fall in sin will loose their salvation.
Do you really want to life a life, living in fear of your salvation?
Do you really believe that you are Mr. Perfect?
All sins were forgiven at Calvary Hill 2.000 years ago. Past sins, present sins and sins in the future. Jesus knows everything from A to Z. There is nothing in the creation that is hidden from Him.
Do a saved person have to confess his or her sins?
Absolutely. There is no license given to sin. If you hide your sins, or deny your sins, you will perish. But If you confess your sins, we will be forgiven by Jesus the Messiah.
With 100 per cent certainty.
1 John 2:1-2 NASB
“1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the
propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.”
Revelation 5:2-5
“2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
2 Corinthians 2:5-11
“5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree—in order not to say too much—to all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
Galatians 6:1 ESV
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
Ellen,
Posted verse:
Galatians 6:1 ESV
“Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.”
In Galatians 6:1
there is not a talk about SIN, but according to most translations it is talk about:
FAULT
or
DOING SOMETHING WRONG
or
TRESPASSING
or
MISCONDUCT
ELLEN all of that is not SIN !!! and TRANSGRESSION is used only by one translator,
BESIDE Ellen,
No brethren have to power to restore man who sinned, – he who sinned need Christ forgiveness, and not a restoration from brethren.
Galatians 6:1
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a FAULT, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
International Standard Version (©2008)
Brothers, if a person is caught DOING SOMETHING WRONG, those of you who are spiritual should restore that person gently. Watch out for yourself so that you are not tempted as well.
Galatians 6:1
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
My brethren, if any of you should be overtaken by a FAULT, you who are in The Spirit should restore him in the spirit of humility, and be cautious lest you also be tempted
Galatians 6:1
GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Brothers and sisters, if a person gets trapped by WRONGDOING, those of you who are spiritual should help that person turn away from doing wrong. Do it in a gentle way. At the same time watch yourself so that you also are not tempted.
Galatians 6:1
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a FAULT, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
American King James Version
Brothers, if a man be overtaken in a FAULT, you which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
American Standard Version
Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
Douay-Rheims Bible
Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any FAULT, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
Darby Bible Translation
Brethren, if even a man be taken in some FAULT, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
English Revised Version
Brethren, even if a man be overtaken in any TRESPASS, ye which are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness; looking to thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Galatians 6:1
Webster’s Bible Translation
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a FAULT , ye who are spiritual, restore such one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
Weymouth New Testament
Brethren, if anybody be detected in any MISCONDUCT, you who are spiritual should restore such a one in a spirit of meekness. And let each of you keep watch over himself, lest he also fall into temptation.
Galatians 6:1
World English Bible
Brothers, even if a man is caught in some FAULT, you who are spiritual must restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; looking to yourself so that you also aren’t tempted.
Galatians 6:1
Young’s Literal Translation
Brethren, if a man also may be overtaken in any TRESPASS, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself — lest thou also may be tempted;
Eric says: “…but every one has a chose to believe according to his will, so you can believe otherwise and we will see on the end who ends up where and with how many crowns ;)”
Luke 18:9-14 “9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 ‘Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: “God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.”
13 ‘But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
14 ‘I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.’ ”
Jesus said that He did not come to save those who think they are already good enough. In other words, He didn’t come for the smug and self-righteous. Note that the Pharisee believed that God had made him sinless.
Ellen you are the one who has posted the long list of crowns, as if they all your now 😉
I’m not the one who boasts of being sin-free, Eric. According to you, you should be a shoe-in for all five.
Hi Ellen,
You said to Eric:
“Jesus said that He did not come to save those who think they are already good enough. In other words, He didn’t come for the smug and self-righteous. Note that the Pharisee believed that God had made him sinless.”
I’m afraid the mistake Eric is making (as many people in the religious system do), is he working God’s ways backwards. He is trying to clean the outside of the cup.
Jesus said, “cleanse first that which is WITHIN the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also: (Matt 23:26)
When people try to clean the outside of the cup to make the inside clean, then nothing on the outside is clean. But because we are a new creation, Jesus lives inside us —we have been cleansed, we are IN CHRIST. He is the one who cleanses the inside. He lives in our spirit. He is one who cleans our thoughts, our attitudes, and our desires. That’s why the bible instructs us to be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Romans 12:2 – Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will
This is how our “outside” becomes clean.
Kind regards,
Jayna
Agreed, Jayna. Unfortunately, some cannot see that.
Jayna
Yo usaid:
“I’m afraid the mistake Eric is making (as many people in the religious system do), is he working God’s ways backwards. He is trying to clean the outside of the cup.”
You have that upside down Jayna
I am the one who is talking about cleaning the inside by the help of the Holy Spirit, and Ellen, and Ivar says that sinlessness is impossible
Our Lord Jesus said:
Mark 7:20-21
“He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.’ For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts”
Jayna it is Ellen who said, that it is okay to have raged thought,
Ellen said:
“It is not just a one-time event. It is an on-going struggle with the selfish, sinful nature which will not leave us until we die and go to Paradise”
It is Ellen who proudly testifies to be unclean on the inside, and go in such condition to heaven :O
She is the unclean cup you are talking about
It is I who say that who belongs to Christ and with whom the Holy Spirit dwellers he cannot be sinful and unclean, he can not serve sin and righteousness
So also said Ivar, that to be sinner, that is UNCLEAN on the INSIDE is NO PROBLEM with God, God never see it, because when God is looking on Ivar He is looking on Jesus :O
Thanks Jayna for that help to biblically pin point the error of Ellen and Ivar
– greetings and peace to all !
Jesus came to set us free from religious prisons as well. I pray Eric will be able to find true freedom in Christ.
I am agreeing with you in prayer, Jayna.
Jayna said:
“Jesus came to set us free from religious prisons as well. I pray Eric will be able to find true freedom in Christ.”
Freedom to sin? As you all are free
No thank you, I am free of the law of sin, and I am free indeed !!
And my cup is clean,
There is no room for raging thoughts in my mind, and I am not selfish, because unlike the tax collector who didn’t have Jesus, i do have Jesus Christ in my heart who lives in me, I am not righteous on my own, but I am washed by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the righteous Jesus lives in me and He is making me righteous as He is righteous.
And I am not boosting in me, but in Christ who is with me, free from sin which has no dominion over me.
but you are boasting in all the sin that you refuse to give up for Christ sake.
Praise God the Father and His Holy Son Jesus Christ
– hallelujah !
Okay, Eric. You never have a moment’s angry thought. Nothing ruffles the peace of your perfect holiness. How about some sin of omission? Do you ever fail to do the good things you should do? Do you impoverish yourself to give to the poor? Are you at every moment humble and patient? James 4:17, “Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.” Are you always perfectly loving and kind?
You said: “It is Ellen who proudly testifies to be unclean on the inside, and go in such condition to heaven.” No, Eric, it is to my sorrow that I still have the occasional moment when I do not live up to the life of Christ that is in me. Why would I have pride about THAT??? But the Blood of Jesus was shed to remove any trace of sin from me so that I can go to be with Him in heaven one day.
One last thing and then I am done (I know I have said that before but this time, I really am done with this). If it is as you say it is, then why would the Book of James say: “My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.” (James 5:19-20)
Eric you said : “… I am not selfish, because unlike the tax collector who didn’t have Jesus, I do have Jesus Christ in my heart who lives in me.. . ”
Eric, I know you probably just mixed that up, but just to be clear, it was the tax collector who was the one justified.
Luke 18: 9-14: 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Eric: “… I am not righteous on my own, but I am washed by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and the righteous Jesus lives in me and He is making me righteous as He is righteous…”
No Eric, there is no righteousness in us. We have no righteousness that he can “make” good. The free gift is Jesus’ own righteousness.
The Word of God tells us that righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe, and that this righteousness is not on the basis of works.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS GIVEN THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans 3:21-22
Jesus accomplished an amazing thing on the cross. Not only are we forgiven, but we are also justified and sanctified by what Christ has done. His work is PERFECT.
Since WE HAVE NOW BEEN justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Romans 5:9
By this will WE HAVE BEEN sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Romans 10:10
Christ’s work is perfect. We can stand before a righteous God. We can rest in him!
Hi Jayna,
Hope you are more successful than any of us have been. 🙂 Notice that he neatly skipped over the fact that the Pharisee believed that God had made him sinless. Anyway, here is a webpage that might prove to be helpful in combating this particular false teaching. http://sermons.faithtacoma.org/IJnJude/1John11.html
p.s. I forgot to mention that what he is teaching is an extreme form of the doctrine of the 19th century “holiness movement” that eventually centered on the teachings of Charles Finney (which many evangelicals consider to be false teaching). Asa Manham was a proponent on the extreme end of the holiness movement. He claimed that he was sinless—that he had even lost any ability to sin. Some of those who left the holiness movement eventually found place in the Pentecostal and then the Charismatic churches.
While there are strong teachings on seeking holiness in the Bible and in the teachings of the various figures of the first few centuries of the Church age, it was taught, from the beginning, that total sanctification only occurred after we shed the flesh of this life.
Yea you right I did confused the tax collector with the Pharisee
You said Jayna:
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
Jayna, Read all what I said before and see, that I keep saying, that it is all by the power and the presents of God Spirit, and not my own strength.
I am not confident in my own righteousness at all, but I am very confident in the Holy Spirit in me !!!
the Pharisee did not have Holy Spirit in him, so he boosted in his own “filthy rag” righteousness, but I have the Holy Spirit, and He makes me sin free !!! And my righteousness is like His, because His Spirit dwells in me, and I am not straggling with selfishness and sinfulness.
Because He causes me to walk in His statutes just as He said, that he will do:
Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I am only testifying that God did what he promised, and that is not boasting in myself, but I do boast in my Saviour Jesus Christ who did put His Spirit in me!
But since you are constantly unsuccessfully straggling and end up practicing sin mean only one thing, that God did not put He Spirit in you, because if He did He would cause you to stop sining, and SET YOU FREE, but you are still UNDER the LAW of SIN and sinful behavior has a dominion over you
And that is the truth!
– Surrender to God ask Him for NEW HEART and then you hands will become clean
*****Jayna, Read all what I said before and see, that I keep saying, that it is all by the power and the presents of God Spirit, and not my own strength.
I am not confident in my own righteousness at all, but I am very confident in the Holy Spirit in me !!!
the Pharisee did not have Holy Spirit in him, so he boosted in his own “filthy rag” righteousness… *****
Eric, The Holy Spirit was not yet sent so how could you say that the Pharisee boasted in his own filthy rag righteousness because the Holy Spirit wasn’t in him?
The Pharisee was trusting in his own righteousness. He thought by following strict religious rules that he was better than other people. He felt so righteous and so holy that he didn’t even have to be humble when he prayed. He thought he was an example of what a follower of God should be.
Now if the tax collector who went home was “justified” before God, how did that happen Eric if he didn’t have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him either?
Eric, you also said:
***“but I have the Holy Spirit, and He makes me sin free !!! And my righteousness is like His, because His Spirit dwells in me, and I am not straggling with selfishness and sinfulness.”**
Eric, you could not be more wrong. Your righteousness is not LIKE His. You have no righteousness. NONE. Are you trusting in God’s work or are you trusting in your own obedience? If you are trusting in your own obedience (works), then it is a reward. It’s no longer a gift.
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Romans 4: 4
You also posted:
***Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
I am only testifying that God did what he promised, and that is not boasting in myself, but I do boast in my Saviour Jesus Christ who did put His Spirit in me! ***
Yes Eric, God indeed does put his Spirit within us. This is actually what changes us from the inside out. He is cleaning the inside of the cup, so to speak. Our thoughts are now directed towards his ways. He takes our cold heart of stone and gives us a soft heart of flesh. Part of that verse talks about the “new heart” that he gives us.
He says in those verses: “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Ezekiel 36:25-27.
Yes Eric, God is the one who gives us both a new heart and puts His Spirit in us. It’s only by grace that God gives us this.
Blessings to you,
Jayna
Jayne you are NOT MAKING SENS
You did agree:
“Yes Eric, God is the one who gives us both a new heart and puts His Spirit in us. It’s only by grace that God gives us this”.
But with everything else you said did contradict yourself !!!
Are you saying that God takes sinful hear out, and puts another sinful in ???
Or as I say that God takes sinful Filthy rag out and puts His Spirit and new clean, You did say, that God does the cleaning of a heart from insight out, didn’t you ?
So what for He does it, if the new heart is still sinful???
Jayna
You said
Eric, you could not be more wrong. Your righteousness is not LIKE His. You have no righteousness. NONE. Are you trusting in God’s work or are you trusting in your own obedience?
God by the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, is the one who is working obedience in me, He gives me strength to resist temptation, and I do successfully!!!
But Jayna For God’s sake don’t you know your bible?
Revelation 14:12
“This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who OBEY God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”
God require obedience, and Jesus said many times “who keep My word” that is who obeys My teachings
Don’t be “chip” God’s commandments and God’s law is to be observed ,and kept !!!
What is wrong with you girl ???
you think you can sin your way to paradise like Ellen?
Hi Jayna. Eric’s attacks will just become more and more vicious as you resist his false teaching. He will revile and ridicule all the more as your refutations come closer to neutralizing his false teaching. But I am praying for you—I pray that he will be stopped from trying to bedevil you, in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Ellen
You asked:
” If it is as you say it is, then why would the Book of James say: “My dear brothers and sisters, if anyone among you wanders away from the truth and is brought back again, you can be sure that the one who brings that person back will save that sinner from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.” (James 5:19-20)”
my respond is:
Because that person who wondered from the truth may have listen to some “different gospel” and wonder away from the TRUE GOSPEL, that does not mean he wondered into sin, nor does it mean, that that person was baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT, he just started to receive some wrong doctrine that would cause him to believe some wrong thing, and begin to fall into sin, or never be set free from sin.
Like for example, that the Holy Spirit has no POWER to set you free from sin, and regardless of His presents in you, you will continue sinning. That is doctrine of this day and of our conversation. WHY are you so STUBBORN not to believe that the Holy Spirit can indeed cause you to be careful to obey His rules, and actually be totally successful !!!
What is contrary to the WORD and PROMIS of GOD
HE said and He does not lie:
Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
And that mean, that you are the one who did wonder away from the truth !!!
Do yourself favor Ellen, Jayna, Ivar, and everyone who is reading all my testimony:
Go back to the TRUTH,
“come closer to God, and he will come to you”
And you asked:
“Do you ever fail to do the good things you should do? Do you impoverish yourself to give to the poor? Are you at every moment humble and patient? James 4:17, “Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.” Are you always perfectly loving and kind?”
Yes,
I do what the Holt Spirit makes me do, I live very humbly, I do not use any pleasures of this world, i do share what I can, and I have milled personality, i do not get raged, and i am patient. My family say about me, that I could be defense lawyer because I alway defend and never am angry at anyone, or any situation.
God – Praise His Holy Name!!! – give me mild patient heart, and He enabled me to be kind, and very forgiving, and very selfless, and understanding, and obedient to His Law. He did put His Law in my NEW heart, and I know the truth, and the truth DID SET ME FREE, and I am testifying to you all about it, but no one believes me, what God did for me.
God is doing even more for me, He is taking away such circumstances where I would have to struggle, like for example evil people. I am not finding myself in situations where I would have to suffer pressure to burst in anger or any other kind of overwhelming challenge.
Another words, God is leading the path of life where I am not exposed to evil, and I can live in a harmony, and peace with God, His and law, with my family and with my neighbors.
So it is easy and joyful to live sinless life.
Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
Ellen, God is talking about HIs sinless people, because He is able to do that !!! By the POWER of HIS SPIRIT !!!
He alway wanted people to be SINLESS and HOLY, and he said, that one day it will happen, after He gives His chosen ones into their HEARTHS and NEW SPIRIT – A HOLY SPIRIT ! So that His people may be truly HOLY and live truly HOLY LIFE!
– Hallelujah, and all GLORY to OUR merciful heavenly Father and His Holy SON Jesus Christ our deliverer from the guilt of sin, and from the law and dominion of sin.
JESUS CHRIST, SAVIOUR AND DELIVERER, FORGIVES PAST SIN AND PROTECTS FROM FUTURE SIN, AND that is what DELIVERING FORM SIN MEANS.
After we become His, His Holy Blood shelters us from temptation, so that we would not fall into any sin,
2.Peter 2:9
“The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished”
I pray, that my testimony would sink into your heart, and make you righteously jealous, and create in you desire for truly sinless and holy life with true presents of the Holy Spirt, who will change not only you, but your live so that you can live in true peace, and pure obedience to the guidance of God’s Holy Spirit
– Amen!
– Hallelujah !!!
– Shalom to you all !!!!!!!
Ellen said:
“While there are strong teachings on seeking holiness in the Bible and in the teachings of the various figures of the first few centuries of the Church age, it was taught, from the beginning, that total sanctification only occurred after we shed the flesh of this life.”
Do you mean in purgatory Ellen?
Because that is exactly what the Catholics are teaching from the beginning of the church age !!!
– peace to all !
Against the false doctrine of “purgatory”—1Thessalonians 4:16-17: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After
that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
and 1 Corinthians 15:54: “But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS
SWALLOWED UP in victory.”
Neither speaks of any purging of sin that must take place in a “purgatory”. Total sanctification apparently takes place instantly when the flesh of this world is left behind. While the body is subject to death because of sin (1 Cor. 15:56) the soul of the believer is owned by Jesus through the ransom paid by His Blood.
More against the false teaching of anyone but Jesus being sin-free in this life—1 Peter 2: 1-2: “So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn infants,
long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—” If it was a one-time instantaneous event in THIS life, why would a believer have to “grow” into it?
By the way, it appears that Peter, himself, was not “zapped” with the holiness of being “sin-free” when he received the Holy Spirit because Paul accused him of hypocrisy in the Book of Galatians 2:11-21: “When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17 “If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
***Eric: to Jayna
You said
Eric, you could not be more wrong. Your righteousness is not LIKE His. You have no righteousness. NONE. Are you trusting in God’s work or are you trusting in your own obedience?
God by the work of the Holy Spirit in my life, is the one who is working obedience in me, He gives me strength to resist temptation, and I do successfully!!! ****
Eric, Once more, to quote your exact words, “… my righteousness is like His.”
***But Jayna For God’s sake don’t you know your bible?****
This last statement of yours is very revealing. It is very disrespectful and dishonoring to God. I’m done conversing with you.
Jayna said:
***But Jayna For God’s sake don’t you know your bible?****
My respons
Jayna, what are you getting rage and offended for?
I only meant that there are such obvious verses in the bible, and you are saying things as if you never read them. There is no reason to be offended.
Seriously just look and be little self critical for change.
You said:
Eric, Once more, to quote your exact words, “… my righteousness is like His.”
My respons:
1.John 3:7
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.”
Obviously Jayna, I did tell you, you are reading the wrong commentaries, and some men did indeed deceive you to believe otherwise.
TRUTH IS what the Bible says:
1John 3:9
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Or
if you knew
that -> saints obey God’s commandments saints who obey God’s commandments <– and remain faithful to Jesus.
… you would not say that I am self-righteous, because I trust in my own obedience. It is my duty to obey. and has nothing to do with trust or no trust.
What are you talking about?
That is ridicules and foolish thing to say.
God require of me and you to obey His Commandments, and I do. and you are holding it against me, because God's will does not sit well with you.
I am trusting in God, and in Jesus Christ that by His Spirit in me, He is leading me and correcting me in a way, that it is possible for me to obey God's commandments. He said that He does write them on the heart, and it happen that He did,
By the presents of His Spirit He is teaching me, and I actually know His will, and am able to obey.
Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
It is God who causes me to obey. he said he will, and He indeed does!
– Praise His Holy Name!
PEACE TO YOU Jayna !!!
….1.John 3:7 “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” …. Eric I have enjoyed reading your posts to some extinct…If I may please hear from the same obedient eager heart in Christ for His Word, on what I am to say, Some, are babes, some profess maturity, some jump as young lads in their new found freedom, but we who have heard His Voice know our own tongue can cause one to stumble in their pride, so we put a ‘bridle on our tongue’ ..and pray more …this banter has gone on for several weeks with only 2 then now 3 consistently. As His Word says, ‘in a multitude of words there is no lack for sin’. I am not rebuking or condemning you brother, I am only expressing you are not alone in your quest, yet, perhaps you may enjoy Ellen and Jayna if you be the one to go to The Cross, and Thank God for your Sisters in Christ by His Great Sacrifice for all. And make it a special point to add them to your prayers as you would be eager to follow The Word. Thanks for listening. †
Ellen says:
April 22, 2012 at 12:04 am
Hi Jayna. Eric’s attacks will just become more and more vicious as you resist his false teaching. He will revile and ridicule all the more as your refutations come closer to neutralizing his false teaching. But I am praying for you—I pray that he will be stopped from trying to bedevil you, in Jesus’ name. Amen.
Ellen,
Just consider, that by calling me false you call God’s Word false, because God said ,that no I
Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
You have problem not with me, but with the WORD OF GOD !
And by disagreeing with the WORD OF GOD you are actually disagreeing with God himself !
Ezekiel 36 “Restoration for Israel”
Ezekiel 36:1-27—–“1 “Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD. 2 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, “Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession.”’ 3 Therefore prophesy and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people’s malicious talk and slander, 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD: This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you— 5 this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.’ 6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations. 7 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.
8 “‘But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. 9 I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, 10 and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt. 11 I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD. 12 I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
13 “‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, “You devour men and deprive your nation of its children,” 14 therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD. 15 No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”
16 Again the word of the LORD came to me: 17 “Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman’s monthly uncleanness in my sight. 18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols. 19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions. 20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, ‘These are the LORD’s people, and yet they had to leave his land.’ 21 I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.”
Hi everyone!
As I said before I do not condemn people very easily I always am trying to give them benefit of a doubt.
If you think that i did condemn any of you, then know that is not so, I only confronted you all, corrected, and pled with you. I leave the condemnation up to the LORD.
I never called you false prophet, but I said that you have wrong beliefs, and read wrong commentaries, that’s all. – i am telling you that just for the record.
So,-
– in my considerations I came to think that maybe, just maybe you have different understanding about what SIN and what FAILURE is?
Maybe you confuse sin with failure, and if you do, and think fault of failure is same as a fault of sin, then YES you are right, you will never become sinless,
because we are limited with our knowledge, and that will always be an obstacle to become faultless.
Only Jesus was sinless and faultless, because His knowledge was full and complete, He knew all people’s thoughts, and everything ahead of time, so He didn’t struggle to understand, but He knew. So he couldn’t fail. He knew all the laws, and precepts of God, but we know them barely and with great limitations.
We do not have complete knowledge about anything, that’s why we will commit failure even up to seven times a day, but we will not sin.
Now, let me tell you what I know sin is:
Sin is braking any one of God’s 10 commandments, and out of braking one of them man is guilty of all kinds of bad deeds. All evil that man commits is often not directly, but nevertheless is result of braking one or more of the 10 commandments:
Therefore who keeps the 10 commandments he keeps the whole law of God.
Now, be patient with me…
The first commandments is crucial, because if we keep the first commandment, we will keep all the rest, but if we do not keep the first commandment we will brake all the rest.
So let me talk about the first commandment.
He who LOVES GOD he will not be selfish.
BUT WHO IS SELFISH, he will say that he loves God, just to make sure for his own sake, that he will end up in Heaven.
That person is NOT interested in pleasing God, but he is interested in God’s blessings, God’s promises, and God pleasing him. So he will profess faith, and love, but with HIMSELF in mind. He will not be interested in pleasing God by obeying His expectations.
Love is an ability that every human has, and who focuses this ability on God, he will not be able to focus it on self at the same time.
God said: You shall love your God with all your heart. That is all the abilities to love shall focus on God, and without any compromises.
By the way. God’s first commandment is like that
“You shall love God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind and strength. And you shall CARE for your neighbor as you CARE for yourself.
Man shall not love his neighbor, because his abilities to love belong all to God, but man shall CARE about his neighbor as he does care for himself, and live with his neighbor in peace.
Whoever truly LOVES GOD with his whole heart, he will NOT be SELFISH, and all of his attention will be concerned with pleasing God, and God will be with him to teach him His statues, because God knows he is interested in them.
And once such a man receives understanding from God, and is interested in pleasing God he WILL KEEP all of God’s commandments with pleasure, because he loves God and it pleases him to please God.
Therefore who loves God, he will NOT have gods beside Him, he will not commit idolatry or adultery he will not steal, not kill, he will not dishonor his parents, he will not testify falsely he will not be jealous over anybodies home or possession, —> because he is not selfish.
SELFISHNESS CAUSES PEOPLE TO SIN.
Selfishness causes people to brake all ten of God’s commandments.
James 2:10
“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
And the truth is, that we all are born under the satan’s law of self love, and we all born selfish.
That’s why God sent His SON Jesus Christ to deliver us from the law of self love. That is all what he was teaching, to be SELFLESS, and be able to begin to love God.
As you read the Gospel you can tell, Jesus is teaching to be good to others, not to love money, not to do harm, and all of that means BE NOT SELFISH, but Love God, because who has LOVE for God, he will be just as Paul is saying to be
It is not love for fellow man that makes you righteous and sinless, but only Love for God.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:46
“If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
therefore in 1. Corinthians 13 Paul is talking not about love between men, but he is talking about LOVE for GOD as a fulfillment of the first commandment of Loving your God with all what is in you.
Because my sisters and my brothers,
He who truly loves God will be:
1. patient
2. kind;
3. will not envy or boast;
4. will not be arrogant
5. will not be rude.
6. will not insist on his own way; (but on God’s way)
7. will not irritable or resentful;
8. will not rejoice at wrongdoing,
9. but will rejoices with the truth.
10 he who Love (GOD) bears all things,
11. he believes all things, (that are spoken by God)
12. he hopes all things, (that God will do)
13. he endures all things.(for God’s sake)
And Paul is not saying that it is something unachievable, but rather he says that there is no way otherwise.
He who loves God has all of these gifts of the Holy Spirit. Because that is precisely the role of The Holy Spirit in man’s heart.
Now man will not have all this gifts at once, because it is required to grow in them, and it is a process, of gathering, understanding, and implementing it into practice, but in that process man will not sin, he will stop sinning at once, because if he does not he will never hear the voice of the Holy Spirit teaching him anything.
Stooping sin is not a matter of practice, but matter of decision.
Because man need not learn how to love God, it is instant event.
YES, what I am saying is that man can be pierced with the Love of God, and For God, and from that moment on he will never offend God with another sin, he will become instantly righteous man. That means he who truly loves God, and becomes God’s Friend.
But he will not have all understandings, and all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, in full strength in him, and that’s why he will continue failing, but never sin again.
That’s why the Proverbs says:
Proverbs 24:16
“For though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity.”
Sin and failure is not the same thing
– and I truly hope our disagreement was because of that stumbling block of that misunderstanding.
And I felt obligated to tell you about it. So I did.
Now let everyone examine his own heart, if there is some selfishness, and how it separates him from loving God, and from walking with the Power of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit turns a wicked heart into a righteous heart.
BECAUSE THE SINLESS SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, WENT TO THE CROSS AND TOOK ALL THE PUNISHMENT OF OUR SELFISHNESS ON HIM, SO THAT WE MAY BE CLEANSED AND BECOME SELFLESS AS HE WAS SELFLESS
For that, and precisely that reason Jesus Christ went to the Cross, to cleanse us with His BLOOD from not only sin, but from our selfishness, and earn the renewal for every heart who follows His gospel, because His gospel teaches what he died for, how to become selfless and begin to be able to love God.
And now to make a very long sermon a little shorter, I am going to only tell you this about what a fault is:
Fault is everything what does not brake any one of 10 Commandments of God, and is not done out of selfish motivation.
Therefore having money is a blessing and not sin, but LOVE for money is sin.
Just as being in this world is not a sin, but LOVING this world and the things of this world is a sin. Just as taking care of a dog is not a sin, but loving dog is a sin.
Then there are things like anger or jealousy that not always are sinful, but in the contrary they are even righteous.
The apostle says:
“Be angry, but sin not” – sometimes it is necessarily to be angry. Yes there is such thing as a righteous anger, or righteous jealousy for the sake of God’s glory and will be done.
Our emotions can serve the devil as much as they can serve God. Emotions can be evil, but if they are sanctified they are righteous, and have a role in serving and living for God.
Meditate on all of that, and God willing you come to a greater understanding then this.
– Blessings and peace to all of you!!!
Greetings to all,
I just forgot to tell you, what LOVE is, and why we shall Love God, and who God does not love anyone.
Now let me tell you just one more thing.
You need to read to the end, what i have to say, before you disagree, because we have some misunderstanding of how the true translation of the word LOVE would have to be done, and how it was done.
LOVE, is a combination of:
THANKSGIVING, WORSHIP, OBEDIENCE.
If man worships God without obedience he is not recognized by God, if man obeys without worshiping and thanksgiving, he is not recognized by God.
It is not option, God dements Love, and who does not love God he has no life in him. And will get none of God’s promises.
God therefore does not love anyone, but God cares, and as God cares we shall care for one another.
LOVE is reserved only for God.
This is now we read in the bible:
Luke 10:27
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
But this is the proper way to understand it:
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Care for your neighbor as you care for yourself.”
If we are suppose to Love God, with all heart, that is 100% of it’s capacity, then there is no room, and we shall not give a false testimony, and say we love neighbor, if we are not”
Just as we shall not say, that we love neighbor if we don’t really care about his needs.
We are mislead to believe that love is all about feeling and emotions, but that is not true.
And that is what darkness is all about, that people love what they shouldn’t, and do not love God, but very many of them have emotional respond about Jesus being crucified, and they think that’s love, and that will take them to heaven.
Jesus said for that particular reason:
Luke 23:28
“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children.”
Make no mistake, my friends, weeping and being emotional about Jesus crucifixion will not get anyone to His Kingdom, but only LOVE.
A true love belongs to God, and all His creation that possesses soul, spirit and intelligence has to love their CREATOR, and the CREATOR love no one!
John 3:16
” For God so CARED about this world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Queen Elisabeth II on the anniversary of the 400 years of King James translation, said that King James made that translation with unifying different branches of believers, and made necessary changes to achieve his goal.
And that abuse of the word LOVE was done to delude and mislead the whole world about the necessity to only LOVE God, and the necessity to CARE for one another.
While Mr. Webster explains that love is all about feelings and emotions. And the devil mission was accomplished.
From this point on everyone can easily claim and guaranty to have a love for his neighbor, but no one need to really render any CARE.
I do hope that will help someone to understand what is going on in this world, and in the church of this world.
– Shalom to everyone!