The Pope is dead: Long live the Pope

The dead Coptic pope is crowned, and kept for public display on a throne.  

The dead Egyptian Pope is kept for public display.

The body of Pope Shenouda III, the head of Egypt’s 12 million Coptic Orthodox is displayed for public viewing inside the Abbasiya Cathedral in Cairo March 18, 2012.

The Copts and their dead Pope in Egypt.

What to say?

Why put a crown on a dead person, dress him up in kings cloths, and display him “sitting” on a throne?

This is grotesque. This is worship of a dead created being.  The Bible says: Do not worship or consult the dead:

Isaiah 19:3
The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.

Jesus said: 

 Matthew 22:31-32

But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,  ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

There are surely some saved Coptic Christians.

But it is not possible to include the Coptic Church as a  Christian Church. This religious movement is some kind of antisemitic Orthodox Catholic, separated, but on their way “home to Rome”.

Written by Ivar

92 thoughts on “The Pope is dead: Long live the Pope

  1. All they need to do is to read their bibles to know, that just touching a dead body will render a person unclean. This is one reason that dead bodies are to be burried within 24 hours.

    1. So you are a believer, Denise, that undertakers and others who prepare the dead for burial are unclean? Perhaps you’d be in support of a caste system as in old India, where entire families were considered disgusting because of the work that they did for society. You know, during the time the Bible was written, before refrigeration and such, you could literally become sick from handling a body, as microbe growth in dead tissue couldn’t be prevented. Do you truly believe those old sanitation laws from 2,000 years ago should govern our behavior today?

      1. Hi Karla,
        Yes, I believe that I’m saved, and no, Im not suggesting that undertakers should all quit their jobs. However, I wouldn’t be so quick to shelve those 2000 year old laws. Dead bodies are still unclean, whether its your grandmother or road kill.
        My point is is that the practice of keeping dead bodies around to dress up or to pray to, is a very unclean practice. In fact, it’s down right nasty. So there is biblical support to back up my statement.

    2. Denise,

      Do you follow the Old Testament Levitical Priesthood law or have you been set free by the Blood of Jesus Christ?

      Your comment, “All they need to do is to read their bibles to know, that just touching a dead body will render a person unclean.”

      This law you are referring to says that “anything dead was a source of ceremonial religious impurity. The dead body of a human being, no matter how he had died, was unclean, as well as the building in which he lay, his clothing, and any person who lived in the building or entered it.”

      Denise, if you lived, for example, in a house and an elderly family member died at home, would you consider yourself unclean? According to this law you quoted, you would be. What would you have to do to become clean again? Would you get a sunrise/sunset calendar and count off days to which the law says you would become clean again? Would you call up a local Rabbi and have him go through a purification rite of cleansing? Would you avoid a sanctuary or church for a period of time? The law says an unclean person was barred from touching anything holy or coming into the sanctuary. Would you ask the Rabbi to sacrifice an innocent animal secretly in your backyard to “pay” for your sin of being unclean?

      What happened to Jesus? Does His Once And For All Sacrifice mean anything to you? If it does, why do you keep quoting Old Testament laws? You quote bits and pieces of the law and act “puffed up” because you claim you are a Sabbath keeper, etc., but the Bible says: “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT IS GUILTY OF BREAKING IT ALL” (James 2:10).

      The Jewish sacrificial system was fulfilled in Jesus Christ being sacrificed as the Lamb of God “who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)

      “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” (Gal 3:13).

      Jesus came to set us free from the law because no matter how hard you try, Denise, you will never be able to keep the law and all your efforts to do so mock the ONE TIME sacrifice Jesus paid for us the Cross. Either you are saved by the Blood or Jesus by faith through grace or you’re not. Make up your mind Denise, because those who add to Christ’s finished work on the cross by following the law will be judged by the law.

      P.S. Don’t write back and say that I approve of worshiping dead bodies or body parts or that I think viewing dead bodies is okay — BECAUSE I DON’T APPROVE OF ANYTHING ROMAN CATHOLICS OR COPTIC CHRISTIANS DO AND THINK IT IS AN ABOMINATION.

      However, if I were sitting by a hospital bed holding the hand of a loved one while they lay dying, I would not be RENDERED UNCLEAN as your comment suggests.

      1. Dear JM


        I agree.

        When I die, you are free to hold my hand in my dying moments. But please do not dress me up as a King. Please do not put a crown on my head, and start to parade my dead body on your shoulders through the streets. Let me R.I.P.

      2. Hi JM,
        Relax, I am not trying to impose the Levitical laws on anyone. My point is, that touching dead bodies is an unclean practice. Dressing a corps and then putting it up for public display, was then, and is still, nasty. There is biblical support for my statement. That was all that I was trying to say.
        Don’t worry JM, I’m not trying to convert you to rabbinic judaism. I hope to meet you at the wedding supper of the Lamb. Perhaps, we will dance the hora. I hope that you won’t have any objections to that.

      3. Dear Ivar,

        Thanks for that funny reply, I needed a laugh today (although it is no laughing matter when it come to the RCC). I have no intention of tapping anyone’s blood for kissing and “worship”.


        Yes, dancing the Hora sounds delightful, maybe we can throw in a few rounds of Hava Nagila and dance as David did with all his might, unto the Lord (2 Sam 6:14). There will be more than enough reasons to joyfully celebrate once we are off this sin-filled fallen planet — and by the way things are shaping up, it is going to be sooner than later.

        Looking forward to the marriage of the Lamb which takes place in Heaven at the Rapture BEFORE the marriage supper of the Lamb which takes place on earth after the Second Coming. 🙂

  2. Why do so many religions celebrate death and the macabre? Satan undoubtedly loves all of these goings-on. I agree with you Denise. God does not change. It is highly doubtful that He has changed His mind about the pagan practices concerning death. That is no doubt the reason why He forbid the Israelites from mutilating corpses and even discouraged touching the dead.

    In contrast to this celebration of a dead body, many of the evangelicals whom I know are electing to have a memorial service without the coffin even being present. The last funeral I attended did not have the body present (the closed-casket burial was attended by immediate family and very close friends the previous day). The lady who died was a wonderful Christian woman and those who planned the funeral did a marvelous job of presenting her life in a beautiful way.

    I for one am glad about this change in the death customs of some. The emphasis often now seems to be on celebrating the life of the person–which is much facilitated by the lack of the body and the coffin being present. While there is much sadness still present, it is a bittersweet sadness that comes from missing the one who is now in a better place. Why should a dead body be the center of attention at a funeral? Shouldn’t our focus be on the beauty of a life lived to please our Savior? Just my two-cents-worth. 🙂

  3. Ellen, my remarks above are questions I would put to you also.

    I do agree that funerals are better off without a coffin or body present for the reasons you state.

    As to the body on display by the Copts, it seems no more macabre than using, as your symbol, an image of a wounded man suffocating on a cross.

    1. Dear Karia Dark.


      You wrote:

      As to the body on display by the Copts, it seems no more macabre than using, as your symbol, an image of a wounded man suffocating on a cross.

      My comment:

      No born again Christian will accept the Catholic crucifix as a Christian symbol. This is the sign of Lucifer. A dead Messiah, and man shaped abomination.

  4. Hi Karla, you said: “Perhaps you’d be in support of a caste system as in old India, where entire families were considered disgusting because of the work that they did for society.”

    Ellen: No, I think that undertakers have an honorable occupation. Some people prefer to have the body of their deceased loved one present at the funeral. Undertakers perform a valuable service in making that possibility as aesthetically pleasing as possible.

    Karla: “Do you truly believe those old sanitation laws from 2,000 years ago should govern our behavior today?”

    Ellen: If it is embalming that we are speaking of, I believe the practice goes back to the ancient Egyptians (or even further) so I don’t think it is an ancient vs. modern issue.

    Karla: “As to the body on display by the Copts, it seems no more macabre than using, as your symbol, an image of a wounded man suffocating on a cross.”

    Ellen: That is why evangelicals (and Protestants, in general) do not use the Crucifix (a representation of Jesus hanging on the cross). He is no longer there–He is risen! Why would we want to use, as a symbol, what Satan and his hordes likely thought of as Satan’s “victory”? One wonders how dismayed Satan must have been to find out that the Cross was the means of his ultimate defeat. That is what is symbolized by the empty cross. That is what the Bible means when it asserts that death was swallowed up in victory. Death is the last enemy that God will destroy. (1 Cor. 15:26) Why would I want a reminder of God’s last enemy to be “in my face”? But that’s just me. Other people feel differently and that’s okay. 🙂

  5. I would hasten to add that it is definitely NOT okay for a Christian to dress up a body like a king and parade it through the streets and then keep it around for hundreds of years–very pagan practice.

      1. dear ivarfjeld:

        Peace and Grace in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ,

        The Coptic faith is one of the ORIGINAL Apostolic Tradition. However, of course nothing stays perfect over time so there comes the cultural tradition and practices of the country’s (in this case, Egypt) indigenous people. Of course, the Copts ARE the indigenous people of Egypt, and Islam is the guest. I have not read all the comments so I am not going to pretend that I know what everyone has already said. So I will just say this…

        The Pope is a Father figure believed to be in the ancestral line of the Apostles beginning with St. Mark the Evangelist, the first pope of Alexandria and the Coptic people. Here, we see His Holiness Pope Shenouda III’s passing as another representative of Christ himself on the Earth going to be with his (Our) Creator. In response to your inquiries, the viewing of the Holy Father’s body is made public because he is just that… OUR father, and we are by default, his children. Thus, he belonged to all of us, so we all have the opportunity to bid him farewell, pay final respects, and take his blessing. This man was elder monk, which basically (and even somewhat realistically by the non-Coptic definition) means he was dead to the world, had no physical family, no home, and lived devoted only to God. Consequently the monastery is his home, the monks and nuns are his brothers and sisters, and we the congregation are his children, by faith.

        Secondly, the tradition of His Holiness lying (or “sitting” as you mentioned) in state on his throne is just that: a tradition. We DO NOT WORSHIP him, his body or any other being other than GOD HIMSELF ONLY. It is not worship, it is the basic form of a viewing, but because he was the pope, out of respect, we dress him in his finest festal garments, which yes, includes a “crown” of sorts, and place him on his throne for all of his children to say their goodbyes.

        Now, as far as touching a dead body… everyone in their lifetime has lost, or will lose, a member of their own family and will kiss the body goodbye or make some kind of physical contact. Touching a dead body doesn’t make you unclean, especially after Christ. His own mother, Saint Mary, his Apostles and others handled HIS OWN dead body with love and care. So, no.

        In response to your Bible verses: The quote from Isaiah is a prophesy in the Old Testament about the deteriorating state of the UNFAITHFUL in Egypt which was ALWAYS a problem since the exodus of Moses. It in no way is talking about current Egypt or it’s faithful. And the quote from Matthew is a great one; however, it does NOT support your position. We, Copts, are all about the resurrection of the dead and do not believe in end of a person. A person’s body dies, yes, it must. However, since the beginning (Adam and Eve) the Lord breathed into Adam’s nostrils the breath of LIFE and man became a LIVING SOUL. We also pray in church “we look for the resurrection of the dead and life of the age to come!” and “there is NO DEATH for your servants, but a departure.” All this means that we believe that by His death and resurrection, Our Lord made alive the dead man. Therefore, truly he is NOT the God of the dead but of the living… and our Pope’s soul IS LIVING in heaven.

        Of course, I just scratched the surface here, but I do appreciate your respect and intelligent discourse on this matter.

        God be with you, my friend.

      2. Dear authorspeaks


        You wrote:

        It is not worship, it is the basic form of a viewing, but because he was the pope, out of respect, we dress him in his finest festal garments, which yes, includes a “crown” of sorts, and place him on his throne for all of his children to say their goodbyes.

        My reply:

        I do not want to defame you. But the whole idea of having a “pope” is not what Jesus desire. To elevate men like this is Egyptian paganizem in the name of “god” and Yakob the Jewish Apostle.

        In the New Testament priesthood, We are all priests and equals. Shall I dress you also up like this “pope”, and set your dread body on a throne?

  6. In Matt 5:17-19 Yahshua states that the Law will no be broken until the the 2 witnesses are distroyed. The Torah are His instructions for us to have a Setapart life. It’s still wrong to eat unclean animals, it’s still wrong for a man to lay with his wife while she is mestrual, it’s still wrong to commit adultery, to steal, to speak false testemony, to break the Sabbath, to bring the Name of the Almighty to naught and still wrong to worship other gods and make images, to drink blood and many more. You are right when you said Messyah already fulfilled the ceremonial law and no need for more animals to be sacrifces for the remission of sins, but you still have to honor your parents, and still wrong to sleep with your sister or your father wife. The Scriptures are not a food buffet where you get to choose what you want. Be careful not to take away from the Books they’ll be used for your trial date Rev 20:12 KJV – And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    from a concern fellow servant.

    1. Dear Yakoob.


      I agree with you, that the death and resurrection of Yeshua is not a license to lawlessness. To the radical opposite. The New covenant is not only a written covenant, on a paper, found in the Bible. It is supposed to be written on our mind, and reign in our heart.

      A lawless “Jesus” with lawless followers is an anti-Christian movement. It is based in the belief in some kind of Serpent theology presented as “Christianity”. The very idea that God do not have to be taken seriously, and that “mercy” and “grace” are “words” with a universal meaning, that is totally separated from the Torah.

      Still man is saved by Yeshua alone, by His mercy alone, by His blood alone, and not by observance of the Law. All born again believers will get a humble respect for the lawgiver and the Law (Torah). Our walk in Holiness is more than anything our accept that the Laws convinces us of sins, that separates us from God. But that the supreme King and commander of the Universe, chose to pay for the penalty we deserve. ALL of us.

      Praise to Yeshua who took my place on the cross. Who nailed my inability to keep all the Laws. Praise the Messiah who understand, that I am not able to, in every second of my life, to do His will. Still He loves we above all of my failures.

      1. Good Morning Ivar,
        If you were not a Gentile, I’m sure you would have been a Rabbi. A lot of Gentile believers think that the law was nailed to the cross. Not understanding that it was the penality for sin, (death) that the law demands; that was nailed to the cross.

        P.S. Good morning JM.

      2. Dear Ivarfjeld, Your response to yakoob(3-20 @224pm) was well said! I say Amein brother! I grew up RCC, then Pentecostal, now a follower of the whole counsel of YHVH, from Torah to Revelation! May the Grace&Shalom of Yahushua be yours forever, sister Kelly

    2. Good Morning and Shalom Yakoob,
      Many Christians really believe that Yeshua started a new religion. Yeshua, was born, lived, and died, and worshiped, as a Jew. Paul remained a Pharasee his entire life.
      Gentiles were once strangers to the covenants, but were brought close by the blood of Yeshua. They have been grafted into the Commomwealth of Israel. Another words; welcome to the family. And thank you, Yeshua!

      1. Denise,

        You said:

        “Paul remained a Pharasee his entire life.”

        My Comment:


        Have you ever read the Bible, Denise?

        I could get writer’s cramp and carpal tunnel syndrome correcting all the errors you post.

        Go back and read the story of how Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, how Ananias was sent by Yeshua to lay hands on him, how he recovered from his blindness, how he was filled with the Holy Spirit, and how his entire life changed after his conversion. His writings, passion, and love for Jesus Christ transformed the world!

        Spend time in the Word, Denise. You have somehow adopted an erroneous “Cliff Note” version of the Gospel and stopped studying after learning from there. Let the scales drop from your eyes, and like Paul, recover your sight and stop spreading error!

      2. Dear JM.


        There are some bad communications between you and Denise. I am sure Denise understand and accept that Paul is a follower of Jesus the Messiah. Saved by grace.

        It is still interesting what Paul says about his life, after He has been saved.

        Philippians 3:4-6

        though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.


        Paul also says: “To a Jew I became (or rather behave like) a Jew, to win them over”. Still he never changes from being Jewish, a tribesman of the Jewish Tribe of Benjamin. Something to reflect on, not a matter of attacking anyone.

        1 Corinthians 9:20
        To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

      3. Hi JM,
        Paul self identifies as a Pharisee even after the Damascus experience. Acts 23: 6,7,8, But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council,”Men and brethren, I AM a Pharisee, the son of a Pharise; concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead I am being judged!”
        And when he had said this, a dissention arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees; and the assembly was divided.
        For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection-and no angel or spirit; but the Pharisees confess both.
        Nicodemus was a Pharisee and he helped to wrap up the body of Yeshua.
        In Matthew 5:20, Yeshua says this: “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, you will by no means enter the the Kingdom of heaven.”
        I don’t know of Paul ever claiming that he was no longer a Pharisee,

      4. Dear Ivar,


        You said:

        “It is still interesting what Paul says about his life, after He has been saved.

        Philippians 3:4-6

        Though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

        My Comment:

        These scriptures are being discussed out of context without looking at who Paul was talking to and why he was saying what he was saying.

        In Philippians 3:4-6, Paul is speaking to Judaizing antagonists, those who opposed his ministry and questioned his apostleship.

        He answers them by placing himself on their same level, to show that even according to THEIR standards, he had ever reason to boast in his flesh — but he NOW says that because he knows Yeshua, it is all UTTERLY INSIGNIFICANT and meaningless.

        After his encounter with the living God, Yeshua HaMashiach, his eyes were opened and he is no longer any of these things, nor a Pharisee — but by the GRACE OF GOD changed!

        For Denise to say Paul was a Pharisee all his life is an EGREGIOUS error.

        The key point of the passage you quoted is that even though PAUL COULD HAVE BOASTED, he sates that HE PUTS NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH.

        You said:

        Paul also says: “To a Jew I became (or rather behave like) a Jew, to win them over”. Still he never changes from being Jewish, a tribesman of the Jewish Tribe of Benjamin. Something to reflect on, not a matter of attacking anyone.

        1 Corinthians 9:20
        To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

        My Comment:

        This is self explanatory and has nothing to do with Paul being a “Pharisee all his life”. All this says is Paul became to the Jews as a Jew, not to hinder THEIR CONVERSION. “I practiced the ceremonies of THEIR LAW; though: I AM NOT UNDER THEIR LAW, WHICH IS NO LONGER OBLIGATORY, BUT ONLY UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST.”

        Ivar, can Paul had said it any more clearly than this? He is no longer a Pharisee, no longer under ANY LAW but only under CHRIST JESUS.


      5. Dear JM.


        You wrote:

        Ivar, can Paul had said it any more clearly than this? He is no longer a Pharisee, no longer under ANY LAW but only under CHRIST JESUS.

        My reply:

        Not under any law? What about the Law of Christ?

        I understand that you have little respect for the Law of Moses. If you feel it is better to live by the instructions given during the Sermon on the Mount, go a head. But do not promote lawlessness.

      6. Dear JM


        There are a lot of misunderstandings, in regards to the Law of Moses. Do not forget that it was Jesus who gave Moses all the Laws. He gave them for the very good of mankind. To educate them and all of us about sin that separate man from God.

        I was a journalist before I was saved. I still am. Even though i consider the knowledge of journalism to be garbage, compared to know the Messiah. I guess just like Paul, I consider all I have to be of very little value. But I still have a place to live. I also have a car, and a motorbike. I am not suppose to trash it, but to use it for the Glory of Jesus the Messiah.

        I am also from a fisherman background. After being saved, my background is still the same. To try to win over the fishermen in my family, I become (behave) like a fisherman. taking about fishing, the ocean and ships. The motives in all kinds of conversations, is a deep desire to lead the conversation into topics about faith in Jesus. I guess Paul would approve of my talk and motives.

        For a Geek who is saved by Jesus, He will still be a Greek. Like a Jew will still be Jewish. JM, please do not defame them, but the them that Jesus is the Messiah. Amen.

      7. Hi JM,
        As I understand it, Yeshua made full, the law of Moses: He took the law from the letter of the law, to the spirit of the law. This does not abolish the law, it elevates it to an even higher standard. Example: Yeshua said that if you so much as look at a woman with lust, then you have already sinned. This is a higher standard.

      8. Hi Denise.
        Doesn’t it say some where, I believe its Romans 11:23. If they do not persist in unbelief, (they is israelites) they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. This says to me that they have been cut off because of unbelief and are not part of the commonwealth of Israel, or the cultivated olive tree,just as are unbelieving gentiles. Both are not part of the cultivated natural tree until belief in Jesus takes place. The cultivated natural tree is made up of people ,gentile and Jew alike who with the kind of faith of Abraham that believe in the promised seed who is Christ become and are Abrahams offspring or seed and who are Gods children. You see it is all about being God’s children and Paul say’s clearly that it is not the natural (Jewish or fleshly Israel) children who are Gods children but children of the promise.
        I see you write that gentiles only are grafted in but Gods word says clearly that Jews are grafted in because they have been cut off due to their unbelief. Both are grafted in to the olive tree
        because both have been bound over to disobedience,Romans 11:32

      9. Hi Todd,
        The way I understand it is this: The olive tree is Israel, the roots and the sap, are the covenants, and the whole word of G’d. The natural branches are the Jews. The wild olive branches are the Gentiles who have been grafted in, contrary to nature. Some of the natural branches have been broken off, because of unbelief. However, it was G’d who blinded the Jews, in part, so that they would not recognize Yeshua, until the fullness of the Gentiles have been grafted in. Then G’d will remove the blindness from the eyes of the unbelieving Jews. And they will be regrafted into the olive tree. Thus all Israel, Jew and Gentile, will be saved. ‘As it is written.’

      10. Dear JM,

        You have to remember that during Jesus’ time, the Jewish were observing the Talmud, not the Laws of Moses. The Talmud is a man-made commandments, similar to the doctrines of the mainstream “church-ianity”. Please examine Hebrews 8, with an emphasis on verse 10. Also look to Hebrews 10:16. Which laws will be written on our hearts? Then to verse 28-39. It is worse for those who ‘abuse’ Christ’s blood like the Hebrews did back then with animal sacrifices. Didn’t Jesus say he came not to abolish the laws but to fulfill? I pray that your mind and eyes open. Many are called but FEW are chosen.

      11. Hi Ivar,
        Just wanted to let you know that I might not be on my computer for several days. I have to have someone clean it and fix it. I have gotten warnings of (stack overflow?) and bulletin codes not matching? anyway I don’t want it to crash. So I will talk with you when I can. Shalom.

    3. Dear Yakoob,

      You said:

      “Be careful not to take away from the Books they’ll be used for your trial date Rev 20:12.”

      My Reply:

      Christians are not going to “trial.” We are saved by the Blood of Jesus. Yes, we adhere to the moral laws, but we are not UNDER THE LAW anymore.

      There are three judgements to come. The one you referred to is for unbelievers only.

      1. The first is the judgment of the sheep and the goats or a judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-36).

      This takes place after the tribulation period but prior to the millennium; its purpose is to determine who will enter the millennial kingdom.

      2. The second is a judgment of believers’ works, often referred to as the “judgment seat [bema] of Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:10). At this judgment, Christians will receive degrees of reward for their works or service to God.

      3. The third is the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15). This is the judgment of UNBELIEVERS in which they are judged according to their works and sentenced to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

      God Bless.

  7. The moral law, which goes back to the period directly after the Fall (why else were Cain and Abel required to do animal sacrifice other than their infractions of the moral law?) included all humans. The Ten Commandments are probably a formal statement of what had already been long-accepted by G-d fearing people everywhere–even those in pagan territories (such as Abraham). The written Law of Moses, which includes many regulations and ceremonial applications, was obviously intended for Israelite/Jewish observance and those Gentiles who lived under their authority.

    This distinction between the two is, I would suggest, the likely basis for the decision by the Jerusalem Council to minimize the regulations on the Gentile converts. (see Acts 15:20) As the Apostles pushed into the Gentile areas in the early days of the Church, they were in conflict with the Judaizers–those who insisted that Gentiles must keep the Law of Moses, if they were to be included in the Church. The ruling of the wise Jerusalem Council was that Gentiles were only required to avoid eating meat sacrificed to idols, sexual immorality and eating strangled animals and blood. (see Acts 15:20) All believers would have a “helper” in the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, who would “write the law upon their hearts”. The strong emphasis on the Law of Love (James 2:12) and the teachings of the Apostles would teach the Gentiles about what constituted sin, even though they did not have the Law of Moses. The Book of Romans seems to be written to address this subject.

    Gentiles and Jews alike are all one in Messiah Yeshua in this age of grace that defines the days of the Church on earth. But G-d has promised that the Kingdom would one day be restored to Israel and that promise will be kept or the yet unfulfilled prophecies made by Old Testament prophets would fail. Those prophecies were not predicated on obedience. Ezekiel has quite detailed prophecy about the Millennial Temple. There has never been such a Temple—YET!

    The New Testament writers well understood that Israel would one day receive all that G-d had promised. When the resurrected Yeshua’s disciples questioned Him about the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel, He did not deny that the Kingdom would be restored. (see Acts 1:6-7) During the Millennial Reign, all of the Law of Moses will finally be kept down to the last jot and tittle.

    1. Hi Ellen,
      Great response!
      Years ago I read a wounderful book by a man named E W Bullinger, called The Wittness in the Stars. It explaines how when G’d created the heavens He created the stars to tell the story of redemption. The heavens declare the glory of G’d. So before the gospel was ever put into writing, the ancients could gaze into the night sky, and while the were taking care of the sheep, they could teach their children the eternal gospel by watching the stars.

      1. Nice point, Denise! 🙂

        For all who have responded here, I think it is important to remember, at this juncture, that ALL saints–whether Old Testament saints or New Testament saints (or we saints today), are SAVED by GRACE THROUGH FAITH! Otherwise, we’d have to throw away Hebrews 10:4–“For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin.” Only the Blood of the Lamb of God–Yeshua our Lord, can take away our sin. The earlier sacrificial system was only a prefiguring of the ultimate sacrifice which would pay the penalty for our sin. That is why Abraham delighted to look forward in time to when the Savior, the Messiah would come and make the ultimate sacrifice that would save all through faith in Him. In chapter 11 of Hebrews there is the great discourse on faith and it makes clear that the Old Testament saints were saved by their FAITH in the Holy One!

        Todd, as for the Jews being cut off, I think you need to go back and read Romans again–particularly beginning at 11:11. “Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves. Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.” and then in 11:25; “Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ. AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.” (emphasis mine.)

        There have always been Jewish people who have come to saving faith in Yeshua ha Maschiach down through the centuries of the Church Age. There have, of course, been many who perished in their sins, just as there have been many, many more Gentiles who have likewise perished in their sins. But praise G-d, in the end of days, once the full number of Gentiles have come in, the Jews will come en masse as the nation of Israel to see Yeshua their Savior and they will weep in repentance and faith. (See Zechariah 12:10). G-d will “…pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on all the people of Jerusalem.” And what a great day that will be! They will finally come to their rightful place as a nation of priests ministering to all the nations from Jerusalem. Amen?

      2. Hi Ellen,
        Great Post!
        I like to think of the Jews as G’d’s first born, and the Gentiles as the younger brother. The elder recieves the blessings of the first born,
        (the covenants,) and is to be a light unto the Nations. (the younger brother)
        G’d’s mordern day children know that we all belong to the Father, yet we continue to scwabble with each other like children. Each looks at the other, and wonders if the Father loves one more than the other, or favors one over the other. The answer is NO! We need only remember that His plan is perfect, and that Yeshua’s death was for everyone.

  8. Author speaks.


    Do you see nothing vile about your man made traditions- dressing a dead man up in refinery and gold?
    Believers celebrate life in Him and what He has done. This man needs to be taken down. Let him turn to dust.
    Worship Him in spirit and in truth and reject this worldly tradition of men.

  9. Dear Ivar,


    The topic discussed was about Paul being a Pharisee all his life. I see you took it down another road that has nothing to do with the original post and twisted my words. This is becoming a pattern and quite obvious to all with eyes to see. This is also why a lot of the people who used to post here over the years don’t anymore.

    The clear intent of my post has now metamorphasized into something so far fetched, which seems to happen often when one refuses to admit they made a mistake.

    When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom” (Proverbs 11:2)

    God Bless.

    1. Dear JM.


      This is a free site of expression. People come and go as they like. I do struggle with pride. So do most believers once in a while.

      I feel you have not understood the there would be no New Covenant without the eternal Mosaic covenant. They are very much inter-connected. A Jesus who deleted His own law, is not the lawgiver but a fiction.

      You also look at Paul with the eye of a gentile, and do not understand that there were believers among the Pharisees too. The debate about the connection between law and grace were hot in the days of Paul. And the topic is equally hot today, even among Messianic Jews.

      Please take a fresh look at these two verses.

      Acts 15:5
      Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

      Acts 23:6
      Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead.”


      Paul said ” I am a Pharisee” well beyond his time of salvation. It is simply who He is.

    2. JM, I think it is important to note that the Apostle Paul took a probable Nazirite vow as mentioned in Acts 18:18 and 21:24 (it is referred to as a “purification vow” but it was likely a Nazirite vow —which is explained in the Book of Numbers 6:1-21) to prove to the Jerusalem Jewish-Christians that he was not telling Jews in Gentile areas that they should reject the Law of Moses. Why would he do that if he was living as a Gentile believer himself? Interestingly, one of the requirements of a Nazirite vow was that the person would refrain from touching a dead body throughout the period of the vow. If you need any further proof that the Apostle Paul lived as a Jew after his conversion, read Acts 21:15-26. 🙂

      1. Dear Ellen,

        Thanks for responding. Let me clarify *again* what I meant since my last several posts have been misunderstood and derailed.

        “Philippians 3:7-8 make it clear that Paul is not just moving to another party within Judaism, but rather that he is rejecting his Pharisaic roots completely. He is breaking with his past way of life and his past theology. While there are many points of comparison between Paul’s theology and Judaism, there are significant radical breaks with the Judaism of the first century. While it is possible Paul thought he was staying within Judaism, his contemporaries disagreed. I suspect that includes not a few Christians Jews who disagreed with his view of the Law for Gentiles.

        “Paul stayed “zealous,” but instead of zealous for the Law, he was zealous as the “light to the Gentiles.” This view of Paul’s conversion is that he does not “found a new religion” but rather a new understanding of the Jewish Law. His gospel is a new interpretation of the Hebrew Bible and Judaism. Paul may not changed have even parties within Judaism: he went from a Pharisee who did not believe Jesus was the messiah to a “Pharisee” who did believe Jesus was the messiah.

        “Paul did not experience a conversion from one religion to another. Rather, Paul received a call of God that is quite parallel with the prophetic calls of the Hebrew Bible, especially that of Jeremiah.

        “The Damascus Road experience as a theophany, not unlike what Isaiah experienced in Isaiah 6. Paul experienced the glory of God and was called to a prophetic ministry. His experience is described in terms of Augustine’s conversion or Luther’s struggle against the Roman church. Both men found their experience parallel to Paul’s and meditated deeply on what God did in their lives to release them from the weight of their guilt.”


      2. Dear JM


        A “Christianity” that is not rooted in Judaism is a false religion. Messianic Judaism is the complete and true Judaism. It is still Judaism, with Jesus confirmed as the Messiah.

        The debate in the book of Acts was how much of the Torah the gentile believers are supposed to follow. Not a single Apostle said that the Gentiles are suppose to reject the Torah completely, or even worse: Replace the Torah with a new set of laws.

    3. Dear Ivar,

      You said:

      “A “Christianity” that is not rooted in Judaism is a false religion. Messianic Judaism is the complete and true Judaism. It is still Judaism, with Jesus confirmed as the Messiah.

      “The debate in the book of Acts was how much of the Torah the gentile believers are supposed to follow. Not a single Apostle said that the Gentiles are suppose to reject the Torah completely, or even worse: Replace the Torah with a new set of laws.”

      My Comment:

      I totally agree with you! I’m not sure how you came to this conclusion based on the link I posted. Maybe you were tired when you were reading it.

      Nevertheless, we can be happy that we finally agree! And we also agree that the Hebrew Roots Movement is a blasphemous cult and those who follow it AND have ADMITTED to following it on this blog, are treading in dangerous water. In love, we have warned them. It is only if we hated them that we would remain silent. Amen.

      Millions of blessings in Yeshua! 🙂

      1. JM,

        You have nothing but a spirit of discord on this tread as well as a spirit of hostility towards others here. It is time to stop! Just who is it that you feel is following this “movement”? I have heard NO ONE here say that they do NOT believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, that says His blood is not the remission of sin and that only thru His blood can one be saved.

        Some are having a discussion as to if one believes in a 1000 reign sacrifice but that is not a topic that deals with salvation issues. All will be revealed in time. All of us-including you, need to show love and humility towards our fellow brothers and sisters in Yeshua.

        Some are arguing that the Law should or should not be followed. It is my personal decision to now follow the Law as Yeshua in fact is the law, gave us the law and wrote the law (Torah). You can believe what you want, but please do not bash others who choose to follow Torah. Some do not eat pork or shellfish. Why do you think G-d said not to? It wasnt just because He said it for no good reason. There is a reason why swine and shellfish are not to be eaten.

        I certainly am not following any “movement” but am following what the Holy Spirit is telling me to do. You seem puffed up like you are better than anyone else here. I think you need to learn some humility and start showing some love and compassion, instead of the mean comments you have made to several on this thread.

      2. Dear Wendy,

        I’m not acting “puffed up” at all. In fact, I am one of several on this thread that has exposed The Hebrew Roots Movement for being sheer blasphemy. Talking in flowery, polite language usually gets you no where when talking to those who have been deceived by various cults.

        Jesus admonishes us to expose error and PASS JUDGMENT on false teachings that contradict God’s Word. “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

        It is of my opinion that many more true Christians are not speaking out as it was Jesus who called out “hypocrites”, “blind guides, ” “blind, ” “whited sepulchres, ” “serpents, ” and “ye generation of vipers” (Matt. 23:23-34). He used strong language to awaken the blind and deceived. Not too many who have fallen into error will respond to just hugs and kisses and overall acceptance of everybody. This is what is happening today with the Ecumenical Movement, promoted by the Catholic church. It is a dangerous deception and many have fallen into the snare and many, many more will be lost forever by their ignorance during the tribulation. The Church of Philadelphia is called to warn the Church of Laodicea. WAKE UP! Jesus is knocking and asking you to let Him come in. Yet you choose to stand on the other side of the locked door following dietary Laws, etc. instead.

        You are free to spread your poisonous doctrines about the Hebrew Roots Movement, and I am free to expose that you have been deceived by false teachings and wolves in sheep’s clothing who are destroying you. I am called to to this by the Lord Jesus Christ and I follow His example in the methods I use to do so. As the saying goes, “If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

        Wendy, do you believe that Jesus Christ IS God or just Messiah?

        What DID Jesus really mean when he said this: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:17-19).

        Your understand of this passage, Wendy is incorrect. Please read this article discussing whether Christians should keep the Law, and then respond without throwing incorrect generalizations about “what I meant” back at me:

        Masquerading in many cases as Messianic Jews, the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM) groups are too many to count. I have provided links below to many that I have come across. They seem to be gaining momentum and crawling out of the woodwork, and I can only speculate who is kicking their proverbial anthill.

        Hyper-Hebrew groups vary like snowflakes when it comes to their beliefs and doctrines, but I have noticed a theme to which they, for the most part, adhere.

        In a nutshell, The Hebrew Roots Movement is one scary beast. Adherents try to pass themselves off as Messianic Jews, but you can see through them pretty easily if you know what to look for.

        Here are their teachings that are heresy:

        * Jesus was the Messiah but He wasn’t God; He was just a man.

        * Intellectually accepting Jesus is enough. One is saved by the keeping of the laws; grace has nothing to do with salvation.

        * Many adhere to a sacred name philosophy. When someone claims a “This is the only name for Jesus or God” philosophy, you can pretty much peg them as HRM right there.

        * Many HRM groups have rendered their own translation of the Bible because they believe that no one has EVER in the history of mankind done it correctly before.

        * Many believe that their leader or leaders represent one or both of the two witnesses of Revelation.

        You can find information about most of the groups listed below at the following sites:

        Rick Rick is recognized internationally as a leading authority on cults and cult activities. He is Jewish and has been working in intervention for decades. This is a very robust Christian site dedicated to providing information on cults, sects, fringe groups and various religions.

        Here are some sites for HRM cults:

        The House of Yahweh: Leading the pack is Buffalo Bill “Yisrael” Hawkins from his compound in Abilene, Texas. He has written his own bible (The book of Yahweh), teaches that he is one of the two witnesses, and adheres to the sacred name philosophy. Rick Ross is an authority on this group and has been watching them for years. His site features shocking scoop on this group and its leader. Sadly, his membership is reported to be in the tens of thousands.

        Truth Restoration: This is another sacred name cult. It teaches that calling the Lord by any other name but YHWH is a ticket straight to the pits of Hell.

        Beth Jesus: This group in Tampa, Florida does not fit the sacred name description and as far as I have seen, its members do believe in the deity of Jesus. I include them here because they, too, have written their own bible – the Beth Jesus bible. Similar to the House of Yahweh, Beth Jesus, too, believes that no one has ever correctly translated Scriptures from Hebrew and Aramaic.

        Yahweh’s New Kingdom: Wow. I don’t know what to say here other than, “Talk about a group of mixed nuts.” I am not sure where to begin. The founder, whom this group says is the messiah, is Dr. Joseph Jeffers. He is in the center of the earth now, but will be returning shortly in a golden spaceship. This group teaches that people don’t die but go to the hollow place in the earth. They also claim that (among others) former President Jimmy Carter and former Vice President Walter Mondale have died and aliens now inhabit their bodies. I’ll warn ya – even though their doctrines include sacred name, two witnesses, denial of deity and all that – this group adds a whole new flavor of weirdness to the mix. I wouldn’t be sipping hot liquids when I read this site if I were you.

      3. Dear JM.


        Let me use a statement from the first link you suggested:

        “Do not think that I have come to overturn/destroy the authority of the Old Testament – in fact, I have come to fulfil the things in the Old Testament”.

        My reply:

        So if the authority in the Old Testament is not destroyed, it is still there. It is still a sin to steal and break the Sabbath.

        I have earlier said that the Law of Moses is eternal, and very much active today. The change that came in the New Covenant is that the Messiah has arrived to stand trial in our place, and pay the punishment we deserve. In that sense, He full fill the law for us. Being executed in my place.

        Paul challenged the Jews: – If you want to be under the Law of Moses, be my guest. You will be judged by the Law of Moses. If you break one law, it is like you have broken them all.

        But since there now is a better offer from God available to us all, I have chosen the best. So should you.

      4. Shalom JM,

        Sorry for my late reply as I was with my son this past week. Now in regards to your question. I have always believed that Yeshua is G-d as well as the chosen one of Y’srael. I believe in the trinity. I also wanted to clear up when I said I was coming back to “my Jewish roots” that I meant what the whole bible says-Torah, prophets etc…I wanted to learn what Yeshua knew as He was Jewish. I have always had a love for Y’srael and the Jewish people.

        I in no way agree with the signs of what the HRM is. Now I do listen to Hebrew Nation Radio and they are “sacred name” users and I dont like to use yet what I feel is the name of G-d as I believe like the Jews that we are not to take the name of G-d in vain. I speak and pray to Yeshua now more that the name “Jesus” as that is His true name (I want to call Him by how He was actually called) Do I think those that call Him Jesus are NOT saved-absolutly not! I was saved thru the name of Jesus. I just prefer to call Him Yeshua.

        Now I am not imposing my “dietary laws” on others but you do need to stop and think about WHY G-d said not to eat certain foods? Was it because He was just being mean or was there really good valid reasons? I have heard alot of nasty things about pork and I no longer eat it. I dont impose this on my young children. I am letting it be their decision. I do know there are parasites that are in pork, that even if burned to a crisp might kill it, but you would still be eating “dead bugs” and I choose not to. I know that swine eat their young, any nasty thing they can find. I just know there is a reason G-d gave us the laws and guidelines on what to eat and not to eat. Who else knows our bodies and what is not good for us, than the one who made us! Do you really think that G-d in His wisdom meant that just for back then and not forever? Remember that His laws dont change and neither does His words. This is just my take on things and I know others have different views. We will all know for sure one day.

        I choose to follow the feasts because I want to, not because anyone is making me. It is out of love for my G-d that I do so. Do I think my salvation or salvation in general depends on it-no.

        I hope this clarifies things a bit better for you on what I believe and that I am not part of a “cult”.

      5. Dear wendy rogers


        You wrote:

        Do I think those that call Him Jesus are NOT saved-absolutly not! I was saved thru the name of Jesus. I just prefer to call Him Yeshua.

        My comment:

        I Roger that. Jesus is not a legalistic fellow, who will send people to Hell because they can not pronounce Hebrew words correctly.

      6. Shalom Ivar,

        I agree. I have 2 bracelets that has the sign of the fish with Jesus in the middle and another one that says I “heart sign” Jesus. Most people only know of Yeshua by the name Jesus, as if you go up to someone more than likely they will have heard the name of Jesus but if you go up and say do you believe in Yeshua they are going to go “who”? They just dont know Him by that name.

      7. Dear Ivar,

        Hope you are having a good evening.

        In his great Bible Commentary, B.W. Johnson summed up Matthew 5:17-18 in the following way:

        Verse 17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law and the prophets. The preceding verses were so opposed to the teachings of the scribes and Pharisees that some might assert that he was a destroyer of the law. He replies that he has not come to destroy it, but to fulfill.

        He does not say that he has come to PERPETUATE it. To fulfill. To complete its purpose. He was the end of the law. It was a “schoolmaster to bring us to Christ” (Gal. 3:24), but “after faith is come we are no longer under the schoolmaster.”

        Verse 18. One jot or tittle. Jot means the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet, while tittle refers to a simple turn by which one letter is distinguished from another. The expression, “jot or tittle,” was proverbial for the smallest part. Till all be fulfilled. “Till,” says Dr. Schaff, “implies that after the great events of Christ’s life, and the establishment of his kingdom, the old dispensation, as a dispensation of the letter and yoke of bondage, as a system of types and shadows, WILL PASS AWAY, AND HAS PASSED AWAY (Eph. 2:15; Col. 2:14; Heb. 8:13).

      8. More from the link:

        Let us correctly understand the way in which the New Testament explains a Christian’s relationship to law.

        The apostle Paul took it upon himself to carefully explain this matter. His explanation appears in several places but is mainly focussed on the books of Romans and Galatians, yet I am disturbed that many modern Christians apparently never sit down and read such books right the way through anymore.

        We have to understand that:

        No one (except for Jesus) has ever succeeded in keeping the law (Acts 15:10)

        The law was delivered to Israel – One nation of people (Exodus 20:1-2; Deuteronomy 4:1-2).

        It is One Law containing the whole package of rituals and sacrifices as well as the Ten Commandments (Galatians 3:10-11; Galatians 5:3).

        The law cannot bring salvation (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:8-10, 16; Galatians 3:1-5).

        As Paul makes clear, the law’s job was to act as a schoolmaster in order to bring us to Christ (Galatians 4:1-7).


        The overall point of Matthew 5:17-19 is not – as so many carelessly assume – whether or not Christians still stand under any part of Old Covenant law (the Scriptures are quite plentiful which reveal that this cannot be the case), rather in the context of quite a long section of Matthew (chapters 5-7) which clearly challenges not only the previous Jewish interpretation of law but – clearly – also aspects of any law which comprises simply a list of ‘do’s and don’t’s’ – our Lord wanted to firstly clarify the position of the Hebrew Bible (our Old Testament).

        He tells us that it is divinely inspired Scripture which should continue to be seen as ‘Holy Writ’ – He did not come to overturn that authority; moreover, many things within it actually testified of, and looked forward to, the ministry of Jesus – who therefore fulfilled those things.

        Verse 18 tells us that the authority of the Old Testament will continue until ‘all is fulfilled.’ And verse 19 tells us that the basic teachings and instructions within the Old Testament should still be understood and appreciated (even though – as Christians standing under the grace of Christ and the New Covenant – we will understand the importance of obeying in the Spirit, rather than the letter – something which Jesus is especially at pains to ensure that we understand).

        Any concept that Matthew 5:17-19 somehow places Christians back under the Torah – or even any part of it – is completely unbiblical, and would necessarily make many other New Testament statements especially by Paul and the writer of Hebrews to be heavily in error.

  10. This has been an interesting and informative discussion. From my own experience I have been at Shabbat service with Jews who believe in Yeshua and are zealous for the law. I have also been to a predominately Gentile church, where there were a few Jews who believe in Jesus and they live as do the Gentiles.

    I imagine like it was in Paul’s time.

    1. I think you are likely correct, Dave. But those who lived with and as Gentiles, long ago lost their Jewish identity for themselves and their progeny. I personally do not think that was a good thing. Just as Esau lost his Hebrew identity and birthright (his descendants became the enemies of Israel as the Edomites) so have those Jews who failed to keep their Jewish identity. Jacob’s descendants followed the better plan and retained their identity through 400 years of Egyptian captivity and G-d blessed them with ownership of the Beautiful Land for doing so. What is ironic is that most of them lost their identity through licentious living–the result of which was the loss of the Beautiful Land. They were able to keep their identity through travail in Egypt but lost it when G-d prospered them in the Land. He predicted that He would prosper them and they would forget all about Him–which they did. The Ten Tribes disappeared from history after the Assyrian conquest. Only the people of Judah and a remnant of Benjamin (plus very tiny remnants of the other tribes) retained their identity through the Babylonian captivity. And they were blessed for it by being those who were to give birth to the Messiah Yeshua! G-d ALWAYS has a remnant to give birth to His plans–praise Him!

  11. Just coming into the Hebrew Roots of my faith in Yeshua, I have to agree that the law was not done away with. In Rev it states that there will be animal sacrifices and it will be Yeshua who is the high priest. Yeshua wrote the word, as He is the word and in the beginning was the Word, why then, would He take away what He created and wrote? When He walked the earth He always referred back to the Torah (law). No where in scripture does it say that the law has been done away with. Yeshua never said the law was done away with. Yes, He is the sacrifice once for all, but there still will be animal sacrifices in the 1000 reign. The sacrifices didnt take away the sins, but were done as a way leading to the one who would forever take away the sins of the world.

    Man has tacked on all the “extras”, even the sabbath was changed by man-God’s words never change. He didnt suddenly change the sabbath from Sat to Sun! That was done by the Roman Catholic Church.

    Also I might add that up until about the 5th century AD the calender was the Jewish Calender based on our Creator’s design for times and seasons, it was the Roman Church that changed all that. So much of what we know today like Easter, Christmas is all pagan. Yeshua didnt die on a Fri…Scripture states that He said he would be in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights. He died on a Wed. That year was an annual high sabbath. He died on Sabbath that year on Wed which was a 2nd sabbath year and then rose just before sunset on the sabbath (sat). That is why He is Lord of the Sabbath. You cant count to “3” from fri to Sun. Sun was NEVER the sabbath. Sabbath has and forever will be the last day of the week, the 7th day, the day G-d rested from creating all life.

    This is a just outright filth and gross to parade a dead man. They are worshiping a created thing. Bowing to the virgin mary is idolatry plain and simple. Thou shall have NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. The next commandment is not having any idols. What part of that is so greatly misunderstood in the Catholic Church. Pretty cut and dried to me.

    The Pope is not excused from hell! If this pope or the Roman pope does NOT/did not have faith in Yeshua ha Maschiach he will not inherit eternal life. Yeshua also said to call no man father. There is only one Father and that is our Heavenly Father. The Pope, priests Mary has no authority to forgive sins. Yeshua did not give that power to anyone at anytime. Mary was a blessed woman that gave birth to Yeshua, but even she had to accept her son as Messiah. The saints are just people like you and me. Just because they are popes, priests, saints etc…does NOT give them a “get into heaven free” card.

    The veil was torn so that we could come to the throne of G-d ourselves. Why then do we need a human man that has no power to forgive us? Mary has no power to answer prayers or any other saints. She also does not plead to her son to answer prayers. Yeshua is not physically manifested in the Eucharist. He is not called down by will to be physically eaten of his flesh and blood. He said to do this in remembrance of Him-not literally eat His flesh and blood! He died Once For All. Not over and over because a priest calls Him down from Heaven at will, to have Him crucified over and over. What a mockery and stepping on the precious blood of Yeshua ha Maschiach! You are walking a very thin line by believing in the lies of Satan. Beware lest you be led astray. I pray the shutters be removed from all eyes that have belief in the Roman Catholic Church.

    1. Dear Wendy Rogers


      You wrote:

      Just coming into the Hebrew Roots of my faith in Yeshua.

      My reply:

      The Hebrew root movement that deny the blood of Jesus has nothing to do with the true Messianic faith. This is New Judaism, one of the many deceptions, that tries to enter the body of Jesus.

      You wrote:

      Yes, He is the sacrifice once for all, but there still will be animal sacrifices in the 1000 reign. The sacrifices didnt take away the sins, but were done as a way leading to the one who would forever take away the sins of the world.

      My reply:

      This is a anti-Christian statement. It has nothing to do with the truth. Please reed the Letters to the Hebrews all over again.

      Hebrews 9:12
      He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

      1. Shalom ivarfjeld,

        Maybe you misunderstood what I said. I may not have worded things correctly as I am still learning.

        You said :The Hebrew root movement that deny the blood of Jesus has nothing to do with the true Messianic faith. This is New Judaism, one of them many deceptions, that tries to enter the body of Jesus.

        My repy-what was in what I stated that made you think I deny the blood of Yeshua? I have been a Christian since age 6 and now age 41. I know that salvation is thru the blood of the lamb. I was raised to think that the law was done away with with Christ’s death and resurrection on the cross. When I said that I am returning to my Jewish roots, I meant to observe the Torah and all the feasts etc…that the law was not done away with, that in fact it all fortells of Yeshua’s redemption of mankind.

        You wrote on reply to

        Yes, He is the sacrifice once for all, but there still will be animal sacrifices in the 1000 reign. The sacrifices didnt take away the sins, but were done as a way leading to the one who would forever take away the sins of the world.

        “This is a anti-Christian statement. It has nothing to do with the truth. Please reed the Letters to the Hebrews all over again.”

        My reply: How is this anti-christian? Can you explain please for me?
        I never knew there would be animal sacrifices in the 1000 yr reign until my messianic believers yahoo group showed it to me in Rev. I still dont understand why Yeshua will require that when He was the sacrifice once for all. I always believed that animal sacrifices in the OT were to forgive the sins, as the Messiah had not come yet. It has been explained that they never were a means to forgive sins, but to point to the Messiah that would be the sacrificial Lamb. It was what was required at the time by G-d. Maybe I am wrong or not wording it right? I am thinking that in the 1000 reign, that it will be in honor of what Yeshua did on the cross to save us. Thru the shedding of His blood. There had to be blood shed on the altars in the OT and Yeshua did this on the cross. Again, maybe I dont fully understand all of this yet, as Yeshua just called me back to the truth the 1st of Jan.

        You wrote:
        Hebrews 9:12
        He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

        My reply: I agree 100%. Again I must not have worded things right to convey that this is what I know to be the truth as well.

        Be well,

      2. Wendy Rogers


        You wrote:

        …never knew there would be animal sacrifices in the 1000 yr reign until my messianic believers yahoo group showed it to me in Rev. I still dont understand why Yeshua will require that when He was the sacrifice once for all.

        My reply:

        You have to show me the verses these ‘Messianic Jews” were using to to convince you.

      3. The group I belong to is Jewish and Gentile. The main scriptures are:
        Ezekiel 40-48
        Prophecies of a Millennial Temple:

        Joel 3:18

        Isaiah 2:3

        Isaiah 60:13

        Daniel 9:24

        Haggai 2:7,9

        b) Prophecies of animal sacrifices in the future Temple:

        Isaiah 56:6,7

        Isaiah 60:7

        Jeremiah 33:18

        Zechariah 14:16-21

        I know there are references in Rev too. You do have to do an indepth study to understand. It will be done as a remembrance of what Yeshua did on the cross.

      4. Wear Wendy.


        Daniel 9:23-24

        New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

        As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision: “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

        Most of this prophecy is already full filled by Yeshua.

        Only the last line is left:

        ……to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

        To seal up, is to close. There are still prophecies that has not been fulfilled. The coming of the final man of Lawlessness, and the return of the Messiah.

        In regards to the Jews setting up the third Temple in Jerusalem. If they do so, its because of their rejection of the blood of the Messiah. They want to restart the sacrifice of blood of goats and chicken. After the death and resurrection of Yeshua, that will be occultism and pure witchcraft in the name of God.

        I feel the Temple in Ezekiel 40, is the New heavenly Jerusalem. It shall come down from Heaven. Like Jesus will step out of Heaven, and return to Earth.

        Do not forget that the Book of Revelation call the last days of Earthly Jerusalem for “Sodoma and Egypt”. It shall be pretty bad in this city, as we approach the end of the age.

        Some Ultra Orthodox Jews, and deceived people in different camps, will join fresh animal blood offerings, and consider this to be “holy”. The last and final antichrist will not mind anything that replaces the blood of Jesus.

        … anoint the most holy.

        When Jesus set up His throne on the Temple Mount, He will anoint the “most Holy”. This is the place of the ancient Most Holy. The ancient Most Holy (Jesus) will set up His Throne at this exact location of the ancient Most Holy. Letter by letter we shall see ALL HIS GLORY.

        If you walk in the tunnel along the western wall at the Temple Mount, you will see Jews standing praying at a closed door. This is believed to be the entrance to the “Most Holy”. Orthodox Jews are standing a praying there, as if “god” is still to be found there. The Muslims have cemented the entrance to the “Most Holy”, in a bid to stop Jesus from re-entering this place.

        On top of the Temple Mount Jews and Christians are banished. Forget about worship. Jews and Christians will be arrested by Israeli police if they start to pray. Two days ago, a Jewish Rabbi requested all Jews to stop praying at the Western Wall, to ease tension with the Muslims.

        It is amazing what Satan is doing in his bid to delay, or block, the return of the Messiah, and the full fillment of all prophecies. Only when ALL is done, every letter of the Torah has become plain knowledge to all, the end shall come. First than will Satan be thrown into the eternal lake of Fire.

      5. I agree 100%. I believe we are in the last days. I am still conflicted on the rapture. I was brought up to believe I would not have to endure death by beheading. I dont know so much now. There is the chip that I am sure once it is more advanced will be the mark. It can already go in the right hand. It states in scripture that the 3rd temple will be built and that the anti-christ will sit upon the throne. Then the Jews will see it as an abomination. I strongly beleive it could be the pope, as they are trying to move to Jerusalem now. He is already deemed christ on earth having the power of christ. Like he has the authority to “stand in” for him. That is pure satan, He will not be able to keep Yeshua out. Satan is stupid if he thinks that will happen. He knows scripture and knows his time is very rapidly coming to an end.

        I dont read the NIV as Zondervan published the satanic bible. They take complete versus out. It will literely go from verse 10 to verse 12. Yes it is in the footnotes, but one is thinking they are reading the whole word of G-d. They arent looking to see if the versus skip. The KJV is the closest to the truth that I am aware of. I do have a nasb, and the versus are not missing. I like to read the CJB as it replaced L-rd with the true Hebrew names.

      6. Hi Ivar,
        I agree, I don’t think that there will be blood sacrifices durring the 1000 year reign, or after. However, the bible says, that there will be things like grain offerings. I think that this may be what Wendy meant.

      7. Dear Ivar,

        I agree with your comment about the Hebrew Roots Movement.

        The Hebrew Roots Movement is a dangerous deception and is nothing but false teaching, a gimmick, and a cult.

        As we can see by the comments from Denise who claims to follow the movement, there is NO FIRM foundation in anything she claims. She picks out bits and pieces of the law to follow, contradicts herself when caught making statements that are in error, says in one breath that the law will be reestablished in the 1,000 year reign — then changes her mind when you called her on blood sacrifices.

        Gentile believers are not grafted into the Judaism of the Mosaic Covenant, they are grafted into the seed and faith of Abraham, which preceded the Law and Jewish customs.

        They are fellow citizens with the saints [Ephesians 2:19], but they are not Jews. Paul explains this clearly when he tells those who were circumcised (the Jews) “not to seek to be uncircumcised” and those who were uncircumcised (the Gentiles) “not to become circumcised” [1 Corinthians 7:18].

        There is no need for either group to feel they must become what they are not.

        Instead God has made Jews and Gentiles into “one new man” in Christ Jesus [Ephesians 2:15].

        This “new man” is referring to the Church, the body of Christ, which is made up of neither Jew nor Gentile [Galatians 3:27-29]

        It’s important for Jews and Gentiles to remain authentic in their own identity. In this way a clear picture of the unity of the body of Christ can be seen as Jews and Gentiles are united by one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

        If Gentiles are grafted into Israel, becoming Jews, the purpose and picture of both Jew and Gentile, coming together as one new man, is lost. God never intended Gentiles to become one in Israel, but one in Christ.

        It’s dangerous in its implication that keeping the Old Covenant law is walking a “higher path” and is the only way to please God and receive His blessings.

        Nowhere in the Bible do we find Gentile believers being instructed to follow Levitical laws or Jewish customs, in fact the opposite is taught. Romans 7:6 says “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

        Christ, in keeping perfectly every ordinance of the Mosaic Law, completely fulfilled it. Just as making the final payment on a home fulfills that contract and ends one’s obligation to it, so also Christ has made the final payment and has fulfilled the law, bringing it to an end for us all.

      8. JM,
        I never said that gentiles become jews, nor did I say that the law will be reestablished, in the 1000 year regin. The law is eternal, Yeshua, is the word, i.e. the law, contained in the word, made flesh. As for the 1000 year reign there will still be grain offerings. Matthew 5:17-19, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”
        “For assuredly, I say bto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”
        “Whoever therefore breaks the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.”
        Jews and Gentiles are both reconciled to G’d, through Christ. Ephesians 2:19, Now, therefore, you (gentiles) are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
        I never said that gentiles become jews.

      9. Ivar
        In a previous reply to Wendy you wrote about the last statement of the decree for Daniels people in the seventy weeks prophecy
        that All but the last statement had been fullfilled. It was” to seal up vision and prophecy and to annoint the most holy.
        isaiah who was in captivity the same time as Daniel wrote these words in chapter 29, perhaps you have read them. Isaiah says this in verse 9and 10 and 11 Be stunned and amazed, blind yourselves and be sightless; be drunk, but not with wine, stagger but not from beer.10. The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep; He has SEALED your eyes(the prophets) He has covered your heads(the seers) 11. For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll.
        After meditating on these words written by Isaiah, I believe that vision and prophecy was sealed by God because he blinded them due to there unbelief. In saying to Daniel seal up vision and prohecy meant I believe that he God was causing a blindness in regards to this prophecy and that during the seventy weeks he God would also seal up vision. Its as if a person does not no how to read it or if they do know how to read they cannot read it because its sealed Vs.11,12.
        Jesus revisited Daniels Prophecy in his discourse on the Mt of Olives when he said When you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through the prophet Daniel let the reader understand. At that time prophecy that Daniel wrote would be unsealed and understood, and of course I believe that happened.
        Just food for thought
        I have been enjoying these responses for this blog thanks Ivar for the freedom you give us all.
        Just because I have not been replying for a while does not mean that i have not been reading your site. I tune in everyday

      10. Dear Todd.


        The spirit of prophecies is not sealed today. Not at all. Everyone who says Jesus the Messiah will come back to Earth, are true prophets. People are still receiving visions.

        The challenge is all the false prophets that roams around, and is even entertained in Churches. All who do not know their Bible is in the danger zone of being deceived. God has always used true Prophets to expose false prophets. But the people of the present days, have not been to willing to listen to the truth.

        When Jesus is back, there will be no need for prophecies. We will see Him as He is. The Torah will be plain knowledge to all. Everything will be revealed by Him.

    2. Hi Wendy,
      I enjoyed your post. For someone who has just begun to search out the Hebrew roots of your faith, you have come a long way, in a short time.
      It is my personal belief, that G’d is begining to seperate the ‘wheat from the chaff.’ “The church” is being purified, cleaned from false doctrines, and freed from the traditions of men.
      When Yeshua returns, He is coming for a ‘spotless bride,’ not a whore.
      Many who profess faith in Yeshua, want the blessings that G’d has promised, but they refuse to give up their idols. It’s sad, they won’t listen because “they do not love the truth, but, instead, take pleasure in unrighteousness.”

      1. You are right Denise,

        Even in my family who are christians they are starting to “come out of her.” My sister did not know the Catholic Church changed the sabbath and is now keeping it. Now it is slower going on Christmas as she is so attached to a christmas tree and presents. I will try to just incl her in the Jewish festivals and know G-d will show her in time the truth.

      2. Wendy
        Paul addresses the church in Galatia who were made up of many Jewish believers in chapter 4.He says to them in vs.9 how is it that you are are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and years! I fear that I have wasted my efforts on you. In Colosians he tells the believers there in chap2 vs16. Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to to a religious festival a New Moon celebration or a sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come the reality however is found in Christ. Don’t let anyone who delights in the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Here Paul is telling believers to not let those who were jewish rob you from the prize It was Jews who worshiped angels and celebrated festivals and new moons that were judging gentile believers for not participating in these kind of things. They were a shadow of the good things that were to come. But now that Jesus had come those celebrations were no longer neccessary, because the reality of those things are found in Christ. Celebrate Christ and what he did for you.

      3. Blessings Todd,

        I know that I am saved by grace that not of any works I do lest I boast. The Torah was given to Israel for them to have guidelines to live by. G-d has standards by which we are to live by. If we no longer are under the “law” does that mean we “do away” with the 10 commandments too, since that is in the Torah, and since supposedly the Law was done away with?

        The versus you reference talks about false teachers with certain practices based on works. Paul was not saying that you are not to keep the Sabbath, he was pointing to those in that day that were teaching falsley. The same goes today. The pagans had festivals too. I do not see that he is talking about the Torah.

        How presumptious of us to think we can “pick and choose” what law feels good to us to follow and what doesnt. The sabbath was set up for all future generations-not just until the Catholic church decided to change it to Sun. G-ds words never changes. Yeshua never said the law was done away with, in fact He always referred back to the Torah. The whole redemption story was fortold in the Torah. You cant just “do away” with the “old testiment” as that is like just picking and choosing what versus feels good or even as a way to justify your actions “because the bible said I can”. You have to take the whole bible,and not just bits and pieces.

        No, we dont forget Yeshua death and think we are slaves to the law, as that is where we can not “work our way into heaven”.

        For me to keep the feasts and the sabbath is in reverence to Him who created all things. Yeshua also said not one jot or tittle would be removed from the law….

  12. I am very thankful for what Yeshua did for me on the cross. He didnt have to do it…I have cried so many times asking Him over and over “why, why did you do it, we are not worth it” but even thou I cant comprehend what He is and why He loves us so much, I know that I personally am loved so very much by Him. I dont know how this got side tracked from the dead pope? I still stand behind my statements concerning the Roman Catholic Church. I feel it is what the Anti-Messiah is going to come thru. Anti means substitute. Scripture says that the beast will have the names of blasphemy written upon his heads (plural) and every Pope has a crown with wording or an inscription that is saying a substitute for the son of G-d. Satan wants to be G-d so he has to sub everything G-d does, “sub” messiah-pope as the pope is deemed “Christ on earth” and has the power to forgive sins and to change laws and seasons. That is why we have the Gregorian calendar instead of the Creator’s calendar. That is why Sabbath was changed from Sat to Sun. It also states in a Catholic document (I dont have the name off the top of my head) that anyone that keeps sun as the “new” sabbath honors and obeys the papacy and their laws. Now I know there are so many that dont know this-just like I didnt, I dont believe going to church is bad, but we should not change G-ds laws. He never changes and his Sabbath didnt change either.

  13. I mostly agree with what you have said, JM but you said:

    “Philippians 3:7-8 make it clear that Paul is not just moving to another party within Judaism, but rather that he is rejecting his Pharisaic roots completely. He is breaking with his past way of life and his past theology. While there are many points of comparison between Paul’s theology and Judaism, there are significant radical breaks with the Judaism of the first century. While it is possible Paul thought he was staying within Judaism, his contemporaries
    disagreed. I suspect that includes not a few Christians Jews who disagreed with his view of the Law for Gentiles.”

    I do not agree that Philippians 3:7-8 teaches that Paul is completely rejecting Judaism. I think it teaches that non-Messianic Judaism is WORTHLESS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION. However, I believe that Paul would have been ardently in favor of Jews keeping their Jewish identity while adding in their belief in Yeshua as Maschiach. Think about it. If all of the Jews had abandoned their “Jewishness” how could there ever be a day when “all Israel will be saved”? It was actually very, very wrong of the Gentile churches to insist that Jewish believers abandon their cultural ways. Their identity as a nation was supposed to be and has been preserved–G-d has seen to that, in spite of Satan’s efforts at wiping them out through the last twenty centuries. In spite of Satan’s efforts down through the centuries, there have always been Jews who (often secretly) believed in Jesus as their Messiah.

    Paul could not have known that Jesus’ return would be so long in coming. But I believe that Peter certainly suspected that He would and I also think he and Paul would have talked about that possibility. All of the Jews who have given up their culture and traditions when they became believers in Jesus (and it is those traditions that kept them together as a people) are, along with their descendants, lost to the nation of Israel.

    I have friends who are Messianic Jews. They have five children. Three of the five have married and all who have married so far, have married Gentile Christians. They and their descendants (if the Lord tarries much longer) have been lost to the nation of Israel even though they are certainly blessed to be members of the Church–the Bride of Christ. Our friends believe very strongly in Paul’s assertion that in the end, all Israel would be saved. They are now considering a move to Israel along with their two remaining children so that there would be a stronger possibility that their two younger children would marry Messianic Jews.

    1. Dear Ellen,

      Regarding this comment:

      “Philippians 3:7-8 make it clear that Paul is not just moving to another party within Judaism, but rather that he is rejecting his Pharisaic roots completely.”

      You said:

      “I do not agree that Philippians 3:7-8 teaches that Paul is completely rejecting Judaism. I think it teaches that non-Messianic Judaism is WORTHLESS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SALVATION.”

      My Reply:

      I think the issue with this passage is properly defining what “Pharisee” means verses what “Judaism” means. There is a big difference.


      (From Fausset’s Bible Dictionary)

      From perishin Aramaic, perashim, “separated.” To which Paul alludes, Romans 1:1; Galatians 1:15, “separated unto the gospel of God”; once “separated” unto LEGAL SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

      In contrast to “mingling” with Grecian and other heathen customs, which Antiochus Epiphanes partially effected, breaking down the barrier of God’s law which separated Israel from pagandom, however refined.

      The Pharisees were successors of the Assideans or Chasidim, i.e. godly men “voluntarily devoted unto the law.” On the return from Babylon the Jews became more exclusive than ever. In Antiochus’ time this narrowness became intensified in opposition to the rationalistic compromises of many.

      So the beginning of the Pharisees was patriotism and faithfulness to the covenant. Jesus, the meek and loving One, so wholly free from harsh judgments, denounces with unusual severity their hypocrisy as a class. (Matthew 15:7-8; Matthew 23:5; Matthew 23:13-33), their ostentatious phylacteries and hems, their real love of preeminence; their pretended long prayers, while covetously defrauding the widow.

      They by their “traditions” made God’s word of none effect; opposed bitterly the Lord Jesus, compassed His death, provoking Him to some “hasty words” (apostomatizein) which they might catch at and accuse Him; and hired Judas to betray Him; “strained out gnats, while swallowing camels” (image from filtrating wine); painfully punctilious about legal trifles and casuistries, while reckless of truth, righteousness, and the fear of God; cleansing the exterior man while full of iniquity within, like “whited sepulchres” (Mark 7:6-13; Luke 11:42-44; Luke 11:53-54; Luke 16:14-15); lading men with grievous burdens, while themselves not touching them with one of their fingers.

      Paul’s remembrance of his former bondage as a rigid Pharisee produced that reaction in his mind, upon his embracing the gospel, that led to his uncompromising maintenance, under the Spirit of God, of Christian liberty and justification by faith only, in opposition to the yoke of ceremonialism and the righteousness which is of the law (Galatians 4; 5).

      The Mishna or “second law,” the first portion of the Talmud, is a digest of Jewish traditions and ritual, put in writing by rabbi Jehudah the Holy in the second century.

      The Gemara is a “supplement,” or commentary on it; it is twofold, that of Jerusalem not later than the first half of the fourth century, and that of Babylon A.D. 500. The Mishna has six divisions (on seeds, feasts, women’s marriage, etc., decreases and compacts, holy things, clean and unclean), and an introduction on blessings. Hillel and Shammai were leaders of two schools of the Pharisees, differing on slight points; the Mishna refers to both (living before Christ) and to Hillel’s grandson, Paul’s’ teacher, Gamaliel.


      (From Collins English Dictionary)

      The religion of the Jews, based on the Old Testament and the Talmud and having as its central point a belief in the one God as transcendent creator of all things and the source of all righteousness. The religious and cultural traditions, customs, attitudes, and way of life of the Jews.

      God Bless.

      1. Dear JM.


        You wrote:

        The religion of the Jews, based on the Old Testament and the Talmud and having as its central point a belief in the one God as transcendent creator of all things and the source of all righteousness. The religious and cultural traditions, customs, attitudes, and way of life of the Jews.

        My comment:

        We all agree that Christianity has its root in Judaism, and that Judaism is an incomplete religion without the full knowledge of who the Messiah is.

        That is why I have stated that Messianic Judaism makes our faith complete. Messianic Jews are also Jews. Still Jewish by culture, creeds, history and faith.

        We as gentiles have been grafted into the complete Jewish faith, by the Jewish Messiah.

  14. The reason people are so attracted to the Jewish Roots Movement is because many churches are branches of Rome. Idolatry, false doctrine and the emerging church may be drawing people to this movement.
    When the disciples preached to the Gentiles, they did not force them to become Jewish but they were grafted in through their faith in Yeshua.
    I have Messianic Jewish believers in my church that have warned of this movement and of Messianic Congregations because some of them deny Jesus as God but only the Son of God.There are some excellent ones who want to stay connected to the Jewish culture, yet know they are saved by Grace through faith, and not for adhering to Jewish feasts, ect. and state in their mission statement as such.They also welcome gentiles. Some Messianic Jewish congregations do not, which is a red flag.

  15. I agree Sueliz. I see a great deal of religiosity around theses days. The Jewish Roots movement appeals to those religious impulses that delude humans into thinking that there is anything that they can do to earn their salvation. I believe that it pleases God when we remember that we Gentiles have been grafted into the tree that is Israel. But if we commit the same error as the Jews did–arrogantly keeping the letter of the Law of Moses with hearts far from God, we are no better off.

  16. I disagree with the position that there will not be animal sacrifice in the Millennium. I don’t understand why exactly (except possibly as a memorial of what Messiah did for us). But it is pretty clear that you’d have to toss out much Old Testament prophecy without a Millennial Temple. There has never been a Temple like the one pictured in Ezekiel’s later chapters–which means it must be yet in the future. We are, of course, told in the Book of Revelation that there will be no physical Temple in the Eternal State because God will be our Temple. BUT there is clearly one in the Millennium and one of the main purposes of the Temple (besides being a House of Prayer where Yahweh has and will be worshiped) is a place of sacrifice. It is as if God needs to give the people a constant reminder of just how awful sin is–that it causes the death of innocents. Remember that Satan will be loosed at the END of the Millennium and there will be one more rebellion before the Eternal State becomes reality and the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. Satan is not thrown into the Lake of Fire (where the Antichrist and False Prophet will have already been for the length of the Millennium) until the END of the Millennium–check it out in the Book of Revelation–that’s what it says. Ezekiel clearly pictures animal sacrifice as a part of worship at the Millennial Temple. The nations will go up to Jerusalem and “bring their glory” in the Millennium. Most Christians do not understand that there will still be sin during the Millennium–albeit greatly reduced because Satan will be bound. Check out Isaiah 65:17-25 for one of Isaiah’s teachings on the Millennium–a time when Israel is restored to its rightful place at the head of the nations. Notice particularly in verse 20 that “only sinners” will die at 100–indicating that long life will be restored in the Millennium. Just as after the Fall and before the Flood, there will be very long life experienced again.

    1. Ellen,

      You explained this so clearly. I am just not that articulate yet lol. This is what I have learned as well. There will still be people that will die in the 1000 yrs. Yeshua is the high priest and will rule the nations as such. People will still have to choose Him or not. I still do not think He will force anyone to accept Him as that goes against the Word-and He is the word.

      1. Hi Wendy,

        I think that leaves us with a mind-boggling conclusion, when all pertinent scriptures are taken into account: There will be a HEAVENLY Jerusalem (New Jerusalem) where all who are resurrected in Messiah Yeshua will be, while we wait out the Millennium. In addition, there will be an EARTHLY Jerusalem where MORTAL JEWISH-CHRISTIANS (they will be among the elect who are the survivors of the Tribulation) will rule the nations from the earthly Jerusalem. We will see the Kingdom of Israel as it was meant to be (instead of the failure that it became while Satan was able to tempt Israel).

        The survivors will apparently continue to marry and have children throughout the Millennium (the “Prince” is described as having sons in Ezekiel 46:16 A gift of land to one of the Prince’s sons is referenced). This succession of “Princes” must be mortal because Jesus told us that in the Resurrection, WE (that is, those in the Church) would be like “the angels in heaven–neither marrying nor being given in marriage.” We, (that is the Church) will be in the First Resurrection–the Second Death will have no power over us. (Rev. 20:6) (We are told in Rev. 20:5 that “the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until the END of the thousand years–i.e. the end of the Millennium.)

        It seems that the earthly “Prince” will rule the earth from the earthly Jerusalem as a proxy for King Yeshua who will be with His Bride in the New Jerusalem in heaven. (The Lord promised us in John 14:3 that we would always be where He is.and that He will take us to His Father’s home–John 14:2) The Apostle Paul also tells us in 1 Thes. 4:17 that we (the Bride) will always be with Him. Once ALL of the enemies of God are vanquished (including death itself which is the “last enemy of God”–see 1 Cor. 15:26 and Rev. 20:14) the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven and we will enter the Eternal State where there is no Temple “…for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.” (Rev. 21:22) 🙂 Amen?

      2. I agree partly Ellen,
        I have always had the belief that Yeshua will rule from earth and we who have accepted Him will be allowed on the earth. I believe if I die today I will be with Yeshua in heaven and then during the 1000 will be with Him on earth. He will establish and rule from the temple. It says He will rule the nations. I dont see where there will be someone “standing in” for Him, as He is the only perfect Creator.


  17. Yes–I agree that is what human teachers have taught us. But I believe the Bible teaches something else. The Books of Ezekiel and Isaiah (among other Old Testament books) clearly teach that there will be mortal human life here on earth during the Millennium (albeit longer-lived than now). But yet we know that we will already be in our immortal resurrected bodies during the Millennium and that we will be residing in the Father’s house in heaven. Read Revelation 21 very carefully and you will see that God’s throne is put into the New Jerusalem which then comes down from heaven to the NEW earth AFTER the Millennium. I will gladly change my thoughts on this if anyone can point out an error.

  18. Hi Ivar,

    Thanks for being so faithful in posting your many articles–you do a great job.

    I do have one point of disagreement with your post in this thread in response to Wendy Rogers. You said: “I feel the Temple in Ezekiel 40, is the New heavenly Jerusalem. It shall come down from Heaven. Like Jesus will step out of Heaven, and return to Earth.”

    That likely can’t be so—there is no Temple in the New Jerusalem. In Rev. 21, God’s throne is placed in the New Jerusalem, but when New Jerusalem is brought to earth at the END of the Millennium (at the inauguration of the Eternal State) there is NO Temple. There is none needed, as all humans there will be in their holy resurrected bodies.

    Also, another reason why your reckoning is probably incorrect is that John does not mention that he saw a Temple in heaven in his glimpses of heaven in the Book of Revelation. Seems as though it would be a strange thing for John to miss reporting, since the earthly Herod’s Temple had already been destroyed by the time John wrote the Book of Revelation around 95 A.D.

    The Temple that is seen in the last chapters of Ezekiel have detailed descriptions (with precise measurements). The large amount of detail, along with the instructions on the division of the Land among the tribes of Israel, leave little doubt that it is a literal, earthly, Millennial Temple–where animal sacrifice will take place. I believe that the Millennial Kingdom is the Kingdom that God that the resurrected Jesus’ disciples anxiously asked Him about in Acts 1:6-7. It will be the Kingdom that they were supposed to have in their past but was destroyed by sin. Once they come to saving faith in Messiah and Satan is bound, they will easily keep every bit of the Law and “all will be accomplished.” During the Millennium, God’s Law will not be impossible to keep, as it was for them in ages past. Also, Isaiah 56:7 says that God will bless the Gentiles by bringing them to His Holy Mountain of Jerusalem and “…fill them with joy in my house of prayer. I will accept their burnt offerings and sacrifices because my Temple will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” Since the Gentiles were not permitted to come into the Temple in the past, (the Apostle Paul got into a great deal of trouble when the people thought he brought a Greek into the Temple–See Acts 21:28-29) this must be the future Millennial Temple where both Jew and Gentile are welcomed.

    We know that there will be no Temple in the Eternal State so Ezekiel’s Temple must be the Millennial Temple.

  19. Hi JM,

    I think you are correct in your assertion that Christians–that is, those who are included in the Bride of Christ, are not under Law (except for the “Law of Love” from James 2:12). However, in the coming Millennial Reign, the full Law will once again be in place. For my thoughts on this, see my examination of the issue above. All saints, at all times since the Fall, have been saved by grace through faith–never by observing the Law. In the coming Millennial Reign, Satan will be bound so man will easily keep the Law even though they will also be saved by grace through faith. Just as those who truly love the Lord have no trouble obeying Him. So the Millennial saints will have no problem obeying the Law completely. Why is this part of God’s plan? I honestly don’t know (although sometimes I think I do). But I do believe that the Bible teaches what I have stated. I welcome debate on this issue.

    1. Dear Ellen,

      Thank you for all your thoughtful and intelligent posts.

      You made an interesting point regarding animal sacrifices being reinstated in the Millennial Kingdom. Looking at this through the lens of Dispensational theology, it makes perfect sense and seems to be the key to understanding how this could be so — even after Christ’s death on the Cross. The dispensations are progressive and reveal God’s dealings with man — with a clear distinction between Israel and the Church.

      There are three main dispensations:

      1. The Mosaic Law (The Old Testament Dispensation).
      2. The present age of Grace (The Church Age Dispensation).
      3. The future Millennial Kingdom (The Millennial Dispensation).

      Notes below from Jack Kelley’s study on regarding animal sacrifices:

      The present Church Age will come to an end when the Bride of Christ is Raptured. She will go directly to New Jerusalem (Heaven) which is located somewhere in the atmosphere above the Earth. (This is not be the rebuilt temple.)

      Immediately after the Rapture, the Church Age and Old Testament saints will receive their glorified bodies at the bema judgment (rewards) and will forever be with the Lord. This means that our permanent home will always be in the heavenly New Jerusalem, and we will never be subjected to living on the earth again (Hallelujah!) although we will be able to go back and forth between the earth and New Jerusalem. There will be NO NEED for animal sacrifices in New Jerusalem.

      I also believe there will be more than one rapture, the second one toward the end of the tribulation — that will include tribulation martyrs (Jews and Gentiles), the two witnesses, and the 144,000 — that will be part of the Bride of Christ as well, forever with the Lord. ( I am open to other ideas regarding this.)

      However, for earth dwellers who survived the tribulation, animal sacrifices will be required since we will now be PAST the Church Age of Grace, where their was no need for sacrifice because the belief in Jesus Christ by faith alone was all that was required.

      I agree that in the Millennium the belief will be that Jesus already made the sacrifice that saves them, but animal sacrifices will be required as evidence of their belief. These sacrifices are meant to direct the attention back to the cross, just as in Old Testament days. The objective for both will be the same, to cause people to realize that they’re sinners in need of a Savior.

      Thanks for the thought provoking post.

      God Bless!

      1. Addition to my last post:

        I’m not clear whether the tribulation martyrs will be part of the Bride of Christ. I think the rapture will be the cut off for the Bride. They will be invited to the wedding of God’s Son but not as the Bride of Christ but as Guests of the Bridegroom.

        Paul stated “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” (1 Corinthians 15:23)

        The word “rank” is the word “tagma and is used to refer to military rank or order as in a group or regiment of people. Therefore there will be separate and multiple resurrections of different groups of people. There may be at least three resurrections of saved individuals.

        1. Old Testament Saints. At Christ’s Second Coming the Lord will judge the Old Testament saints. This period includes the time from the beginning until the Church Age began at the institution of the local church as Acts 2 records (present Church Age). At the beginning of the Church Age the Old Testament dispensation is temporarily suspended.

        Those who are saved in the Church Age are the body and bride of Jesus Christ and are a separate group of believers. When the Tribulation begins all Church Age saints will be resurrected (rapture). Immediately after the rapture the Old Testament dispensation is resumed.

        2. The saints of the Millennium. The Bible does not specifically mention when the saints of the Millennial age will be resurrected. Saints who go into the New Heavens and Earth will be in new spiritual bodies. 2 Cor. 5:1, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a reference to the new body Church Age believers receive after their deaths. It would seem logical that at the end of the Millennium, the saints of that age would also be resurrected and changed as believers in this present age.

        Revelation 6:9-11, 7:13-14, shows the martyred Tribulation saints in heaven. 1 Thess. 3:13 says the Lord will return with “all” of His saints at His Second Coming. This would include the Old Testament, Church Age and Tribulation saints. Therefore the Tribulation saints would be resurrected at the Lord’s Second Coming.

        The Bible does not explain all of this to us. I am not sure that people in the Millennium will die. I do not like to speculate, but I can find nothing that says they do or do not. If people in the Millennium will be in their natural bodies then it would seem logical that they could be killed or die of some cause. However, it could be that the Lord will protect all people on earth from injury and death. Of course at the end of the Millennial period they will certainly be “changed” like 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says will happen to Church Age saints and will go into the New Heavens and Earth in their gloried bodies.

  20. Hi JM–blessings to you, as well!

    Then would you agree that there will be mortals (survivors of the Tribulation–all will be believers–at first–because the unbelievers will be rounded up and killed [Rev. 19:17-18] on the earth throughout the Millennial Reign (albeit with long lives–see Isaiah 65:20)? It really seems clear to me that those in the Millennial Reign on earth are mortals—as it speaks of babies in the same Isaiah passage. We know that those who will already be in the First Resurrection, will be “like the angels in heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage”—and no marriage, no babies. (The “Prince” also has sons in Ezekiel 46:16–will the Prince be a mortal proxy ruler for Jesus, the Righteous King?)

    I guess that is why Rev. 20:6 says, “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and
    will reign with Him a thousand years.” The mortals (and their progeny) who go through the Millennial Reign will still be under threat of the Second Death, if they do not obey. But they will obey until right at the end of the Millennium when there will be one last rebellion among the Gentiles because Satan will be loosed (they surround Jerusalem, intending to make war, until fire comes down from heaven and burns the rebels up—Rev. 20:9).

    Since Jesus promised His followers that we would always be with Him, then it seems likely that Jesus and those in the First Resurrection will be in the New Jerusalem, in heaven, during the Millennial Reign. Remember that the New Jerusalem does not come down to the New Earth until after the Millennium and the Great White Throne Judgment is over.

    The Millennial Reign will be one last test for mortals and will prove once and for all time that fallen mankind is incapable of keeping God’s righteous standards without being totally dependent on God. The tragedy that began in the Garden was the result of Adam and Eve straying from their loving dependence on God.

    1. Good post, JM but Isaiah does say that, during the Righteous Kingdom that “only sinners will die at 100”. I agree that the Tribulation Saints will be “friends of the Bridegroom”. Being part of the Bride is an incredible gift of grace.

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