The Lusanne Movement accept the Pope as a Christian leader

“Charismatic Roman Catholics are born again”. The Pope is no longer mentioned as an antichrist.

Billy Graham had no problem by sending new Christians to attend a Catholic mass, and come under the protection of the Pope.

The Lussane Movement is holding their World Conference in Cape Town. 4.000 participants from 198 nations is joining the week long conference in Africa, from 18th of October.

There are to major shortfall in this ecumenical conference, that is promoting Global Christian Mission. There is no word about the need to support the Jewish state of Israel, and the Pope is not mentioned as an antichrist.

In the document defining Evangelical mission towards Roman Catholics, the Lusanne Movement (LM) has moved away from the viewpoint of the Church Reformers.  While men like Calvin, Wesley and Luther called the Pope an antichrist, and words can offend the Pontiff and his bishops are deleted.

The LM agree the need to evangelize both nominal Roman Catholic and “nominal protestants”. By not branding the Vatican as the seat of an antichrist, the LM accept that Roman Catholic can be saved, despite supporting the Ponfiff. There is no guidance of how many false Catholic doctrines a man can accept and support, without loosing their salvation. The possibility of the “Jesus” promoted in Rome being a false Messiah, is not debated at all.

The Lussane Movement accept “Charismatic Roman Catholics” as born again Christians, even if they stay put in the Vatican Church.  The explanation given is not at all based in the scripture, but rather a strange mix of “emotional uplift and personal freedom”.

This are the explanation given on their website:

Charismatic Roman Catholics: Some are truly born again and committed to the Lordship of Jesus, and enjoy the emotional uplift and personal freedom. They are committed to remain Roman Catholics.

Despite not being able to give a clear border line for when a Roman Catholic can be accepted as a “Christian”, the LM explains what kind of Papal doctrine that must be rejected.

All agreed, however, that the following non-biblical doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are some of the major points that we find unacceptable:
•    A synergistic view of salvation. Justification by faith and works
•    The possibility of salvation outside of explicit faith in Jesus Christ
•    The mediation of the church
•    The Roman Catholic view of sin and forgiveness
•    Purgatory
•    The meaning of the mass and transubstantiation
•    The Roman Catholic view of the authority of tradition
•    Veneration of Mary and the saints
•    Sacramentalism (ex-opere operato)
•    The primacy and infallibility of the Pope

The LM do not want to guide Evangelicals to request Roman Catholics to leave the Papal system.

a) Avoid an anti-Roman Catholic spirit.
Do not attack or seek to discredit Roman Catholic doctrine. Biblical answers need to be given when requested, but a systematic attack on the position of the Roman Catholic Church is counter-productive.

Neither do the LM support Evangelicals who claim that Roman Catholics are not Christians at all.

(b) Present the Lordship of Christ.
Most nominal Roman Catholics will profess to be Christian. Do not attack them by disclaiming the reality of their Christianity. Accept their statement at face value and lead them into Bible studies, indicating that the new birth results in a progressive change of attitude and behaviour.

The LM do not agree that Catholics in Spain should be told to leave the RCC.

Evangelical group leaders were carefully instructed to avoid criticizing the Roman Catholic Church or persuading participants to leave it. Rather they were encouraged to allow the Holy Spirit to work through the ministry of the Word.

In an example from Poland, the Billy Graham crusade worked closely with the Roman Catholic Church.

In addition, joint meetings and special events, such as Billy Graham’s crusade, are held in Roman Catholic Churches with many Roman Catholics attending. Often Roman Catholics who are converted do not leave their church because Evangelical congregations are so few. Normally they become involved with one of the renewal movements within the Roman Catholic Church.

Source: The website of the Lusanne Movement.

99 thoughts on “The Lusanne Movement accept the Pope as a Christian leader

  1. The speaking in tongues that the Evangelical Charismatics do is not biblical. So it doesn’t surprise me too much that the Evangelical Charismatics join with “Roman Catholic Charismatics.”
    Still though, it is too bad.
    When churches have false doctrines, it probably gives way to more and more destructiveness as time goes by.
    Like the other write-up you did not long ago about the Lutheran Church. Lutheran’s hang on to some false doctrines like: real presence of blood and flesh in the bread and wine; and infant baptism.
    There probably more false doctrines with the Lutheran religion that I have not heard of yet, but those are major false doctrines.

    1. Dear Victoria.

      Shalom.

      Speaking in tongues is another doctrine where Baptists and Pentecostal have minor disagreements. Again, this is not a matter of salvation, but of theology. I believe this gift is still present on Earth, but do warn that there are also fake tongues, and people who pretend.

      Since there is both true and false tongues present in our Churches today, speaking in “tongues” can not be taken as “the proof” that people are born again. The question will always be if people are faithful to the Word of God, and accept the scripture as the highest and final authority.

      1. Ivar,

        I don’t call myself a Baptist. I just don’t know enough about that denomination to label myself as one. I probably wouldn’t label myself as a “Baptist” even if I agreed with every single belief they taught. I’m a Christian. I’m saved by Jesus Christ. As I go on my walk with the Lord in this life…I’m ready to get rid of any false belief and doctrine that is revealed to me.
        You say you believe “this gift is still present on Earth.” Biblical speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews. The sign was given during the laying of the foundation. The foundation was laid, and the sign was given. So why would speaking in tongues still be active? Please think about it and give it more serious consideration.
        You act as if this is a small matter…but I believe in Christian apologetics and exposing false doctrines where it is found. I believe all Truth is important.
        And if Christians are being taught falseness and practicing it, such as glossolalia, then this is something that should be exposed and personally stopped.
        Especially evident in it’s falseness is the way the churches do not follow scripture on how to conduct oneself when speaking in tongues.

      2. “I believe this gift is still present on Earth, but do warn that there are also fake tongues, and people who pretend.”

        I too believe that the speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. I also agree that many mimick this gift (hence) the fake tongues (like Benny Hinn does.)

        There are a few bible verses about speaking in tongues:

        Mark 16:15-18 “And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

        Acts 10:44-47 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

        1 Corinthians 14:37-40 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.

  2. This is a very confusing issue to many people. I do have the gift of tongues. I know that it exists. I completely agree that there IS fake tongues. Do you think that everyone who is Catholic and has tongues that it must be fake tongues? When I received it, I didn’t ask for it, try to get it or even wanted it! I thought it was strange.I was involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement a while back. This year I left the Catholic Church. Does that mean I have fake tongues? Actually I was young when I received it and at a protestant prayer meeting if that says anything. The whole subject seems pretty confusing. Some say it doesn’t exist and all the gifts stopped after the Bible was completed. That just doesn’t make any sense to me. Why would the Holy Spirit stop ministering to the people? This is a great topic because many people don’t know what to think about it. Me, one of them. I’ve always said this, that tongues is one of the lesser gifts. It’s much better to be able to evangelize and love people. To love is the best gift of all I think.

    1. Dear Sue.

      Shalom.

      I have got the gift of speaking in tongues, and people who have got the gift of interpretation have enlighten the Church with the message. I do not speak in tongues very often, but there are times I can speak in tongues for quite a while.

      Victoria.

      The gift of administration is still present on Earth. But this gift of the Holy Spirit is not a gift that should make Christians make inclusive or exclusive doctrines in regards to salvation. If you do not have the gift of administration, nor the gift of speaking in tongues, you are still a daughter of Jesus and my sister in our faith in Him.

      1. Ivar,
        I spoke in tongue and also interpretted what I was saying.
        When I decided I would do this more in my personal life, and also teach my sister what is was…the Holy Spirit led me to read and study about it more, because I never really did, but I only just accepted it what I was told and taught about it.
        After studying it for myself, I know understand speaking in tongues more and stopped doing it.
        Jesus keeps me on the straight and narrow path, when I wandered off into false doctrine, he got me away from it.

      2. Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        After studying it for myself, I know understand speaking in tongues more and stopped doing it.

        My comment:

        1 Corinthians 14:18
        I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

        Since Paul spoke in tongues, and you did, and even got the interpretation: Why did you change your mind?

        Did the Holy Spirit change His mind?

      3. Victoria,

        I disagree strongly with your comment “I wndered off into false doctrine.”

        There are more than a few bible verses, which indicate that speaking in tongues is a gift from God.

        Mark 16:15-18 clarifies it more.

        And then there is this:
        1 Corinthians 14:1-2
        Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

    2. Sueliz,

      I’ve never had the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. Ever since I was 8 years old, I’ve been able to see demons. It was something I’ve never wanted, but learned to accept and stop questioning God about it. Mark 16:15-18 list some of the things that have and will be done in Jesus Christ name.

      Your Comment: I’ve always said this, that tongues is one of the lesser gifts.

      My Comment: I don’t think any gifts from Jesus Christ is one lesser than the other. Christ gives us this gift for a reason, and we may not be able to understand it now, but when we see him, I’m sure he will explain it to us further. Like, I said above it’s taken me years to come to terms with what I see and here, when others cannot. As a child, I was very frighten, and it took me a long time to realize that there is Power in the name of Jesus Christ.

      Also this biblical verse calls touches my heart greatly. Acts 2:17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.”

      God Bless 🙂

      1. Gloria,

        You said you’ve been able to see demons. If you resist the devil he will flee from you. You have to keep on resisting.
        Also, you said that speaking in tongues is not a lesser gift from the others, but see here what the Bible say about that…

        I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. 1 Corinthians 14:5

      2. Victoria,

        I also said that in my comment above:”it took me a long time to realize that there is Power in the name of Jesus Christ.”

        So yes, the devil does flee when I shout the beautiful name of Jesus Christ.

        1 Corinthians 14:5 I understand the bible verse. But what I’m trying to say here, is every gift from Christ has a reason, and I personally wouldn’t consider a gift from the Holy Spirit being less than another gift.

  3. I just found this on Wikkipedia:

    Non-Christian practice

    Other religious groups been observed to practice some form of theopneustic glossolalia. It is perhaps most commonly in Paganism, Shamanism, and other mediumistic religious practices.[63] In Japan, the God Light Association used to practice glossolalia to cause adherents to recall past lives.[64]

    Glossolalia has even been postulated as an explanation for the Voynich manuscript.[65]

    There are some[who?] who consider the following in Judaism to be some form of glossolalia:

    Various rituals and references exist about prayer of people not familiar with the holy language, and the importance of prayers said by people who only know how to mumble the words without understanding them. In the 17th century it was said in the name of the Baal Shem Tov upon hearing the prayer of someone who instead of praising God who blesses the years (HaShanim) praised God who blesses the women (HaNashim). He said that this person’s prayers are the highest and holiest. The texts to be recited during the Shavuot celebrations (original ceremony of Pentecost) must be read in the original Hebrew directly from the Bible, even if the person reading it does not understand the meaning.[66]

    Certain Gnostic magical texts from the Roman period have written on them unintelligible syllables such as “t t t t n n n n d d d d d…” etc. It is conjectured that these may be transliterations of the sorts of sounds made during glossolalia. The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians also features a hymn of (mostly) unintelligible syllables which is thought to be an early example of Christian glossolalia.[citation needed]

    In the 19th century, Spiritism was developed by the work of Allan Kardec, and the phenomenon was seen as one of the self-evident manifestations of spirits. Spiritists argued that some cases were actually cases of xenoglossia (from Greek,xenos, stranger; and glossa, language. When one speaks in a language unknown to him).

    Glossolalia has also been observed in the Voodoo religion of Haiti,[67] as well as in the Hindu Gurus and Fakirs of India.[68][69

    1. Sueliz1,

      Interesting information. This information should make Christians question if their speaking in tongues is biblical…especially when Pagan and Voodoo religion practice glossolalia, or otherwise known as “gibberish.”

  4. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
    —1 Corinthians 14:14-19

    It is wrong for some people to think that having tongues makes you “holy” or having tongues is proof you have been born again. It is wrong to insist all Christians should have tongues. And that’s what I mean by being a lesser gift (note scripture above)

    1. Okay I got that bible verse. I just didn’t want you to think that any gift from God is “lesser” than the another gift.

      Thank you for your explanation. And yes, it is very wrong to insist all Christians have tongues, and it is also wrong for them to think they are “holy” because of it.

      God Bless.

  5. Let me chip in on the tongues issue.

    Tongues is mentioned in the Bible as a spiritual gift. The view that it was a temporary gift is not universally held, and does involve a certain interpretation of the Bible. I’m actually not sure what position I take, so will look at both sides.

    If you take the view that tongues was a temporary gift, you have to conclude that all tongues now are false. If not, read on…

    The qualification for receiving any spiritual gift is that you are a Christian. Despite what some may say, there are Christians (real born again ones) in the Roman Catholic church. So it is possible for catholics to have a genuine spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues (assuming it still exists today).

    But I am convinced that there is false speaking in tongues in the church. It may even be that the majority of instances of this gift are false. But mostly it is psychological, not demonic. There’s been considerable work done by psychologists into tongues, and the conclusion is that it is mostly learned behavior. So if someone has this gift, you shouldn’t read too much into it. It is certainly not proof that they are a christian. If non-Christians speak in tongues, then it cannot be the genuine gift.

    I would also agree that the way the gift of tongues is used today is often not in accordance with the Bible. In many of these cases, I also strongly suspect that the gift is fake.

    To Sue: I think the question you should ask yourself (and share with us if you feel able) is were you a Christian at the time you received your gift of tongues? If you weren’t, I would have to say that your “gift” is definitely false. If you were, then it could be genuine. You should also look at the situation where you received it. If it was highly emotional and, for example, you were surrounded by people praying in tongues, then there is a good chance your subconscious mind just made it up. If you’re in either of these two categories, don’t worry, just repent of it before God and stop doing it.

    So Sue, your gift of tongues could be genuine. Certainly there’s a lot of Christians today who also believe that they have this gift. Is every one of them deluded? I don’t have a problem with saying that a lot of them are, but at the moment I’m not prepared to say that every single one is.

    Another thing to bear in mind is the origins of the pentecostal and charismatic movements. If you study pentecostalism in particular, which is where tongues re-emerged, you’ll find that there’s a lot of questionable stuff throughout its history. The movement seems to attract conmen and charlatans. What about the other sign gifts such as prophecy and healing? Again, there’s not a lot of evidence for them, once you get rid of all the hype. So I do have concerns about the whole basis for the belief that the supernatural sign gifts are still in existence.

    So, I’m unsure – there’s arguments for both the cessationist and continuationist positions.

    One thing I would stress, to finish, is that individual beliefs in this area are of no importance. Someone who has the gift of tongues is very unlikely to even contemplate that it could be fake. It actually goes right to the heart of their belief system – a personal encounter with God through the power of the Holy Spirit – and is very deeply rooted indeed. It’s effectively the proof of the whole pentecostal philosophy – people speak in supernatural tongues, so miracles must still happen today. Tongues cannot be questioned, because they are usually the proof of the baptism of the holy spirit, and if those two are shown to be false, then pentecostalism as a movement is false. Very few in the movement have the openness of mind to even consider this as a possibility.

    I hope that this is of help and hasn’t confused anyone too much!

  6. May God’s truth keep you close to Him and Jesus Christ.

    In the Old Testament we read this about tongues….

    Isaiah 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
    God will speak to this people,

    12 to whom he said,
    “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
    and, “This is the place of repose”—
    but they would not listen.

    And now read what the New Testament says about tongues….

    1 Corinthians 14:21 In the Law it is written:
    “Through men of strange tongues
    and through the lips of foreigners
    I will speak to this people,
    but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.

    22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

    So we can see from the scriptures that speaking in tongues was prophesied about in the Old Testament, that the Lord would speak to the Jews, as stated in Isaiah 28. And this prophecy was being fulfilled in the New Testament, as confirmed by Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21. Since the biblical speaking in tongues were for a sign, and the sign was given for the purpose as prophesied in the Old Testament, it would make sense to believe that speaking in tongues is a gift that would stop.

    1. Victoria,

      You said: Since the biblical speaking in tongues were for a sign, and the sign was given for the purpose as prophesied in the Old Testament, it would make sense to believe that speaking in tongues is a gift that would stop.

      My Comment: I’m curious, then how would you explain:
      1 Corinthians 14:1-2
      Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

      1. Gloria,

        The foundation was still being laid. Speaking in tongues continued while the foundation was being laid.

        The New Testament is of very special times, to say the least. Salvation is given to us by God through Jesus Christ, that God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spririt distributed according to his will (Hebrew 2:1-4). The gift of tongues is a gift given during the laying of the foundation of the church. The foundation has been laid (Eph 2:19). And speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews, a sign fulfilled. Yet many Christians believe their glossolalia is the tongues speaking as in the bible.

        Read about the foundation in Ephesians 2:19, and Hebrews 2:1-4 about God testifying to salvation through Jesus Christ:

        Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

        Hebrews 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

        When people spoke in tongues, they spoke mysteries (1 Corinthians 14:2). The mysteries of the gospel has been given (Ephesians 6:19).

      2. Victoria,

        I understand all that (the foundation being laid.) I have no questions regarding that.

        Your comment from above: The sign was given during the laying of the foundation. The foundation was laid, and the sign was given. So why would speaking in tongues still be active?

        My Comment: Why would you not think that it is still active? Christ has allowed me to see and experience many things, and I give Glory and Honor to him always. I have seen believers in Christ cast out demons, just as I seen believers in Christ speak in tongues.

        Mark 16 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

        This is another bible verse about speaking in tongues: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

      3. Gloria,

        In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues…..

        Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

        And in Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages….

        Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

        Just look at the list of places the Jews had come from. There is mentioned, among other places, Judea; Asia; Egypt and parts of Libya; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); and Arabs.

        Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

        (Notice that the word for ‘foreign languages’ clearly is called ‘tongues’ in Acts 2:11.)

        God in His infinite wisdom, knew that the Gentiles speaking in tongues would be a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles are also included in salvation. Can you imagine how necessary it was for the Jews to have the sign that salvation is for the Gentiles too? See the following passage how the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, as was evident by the Gentiles speaking in tongues and praising God.

        Acts 10:44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

        Then Peter said, 47″Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

        Now see in Acts 11 how Peter has to explain to the Jews about the Gentiles.

        Acts 11
        Peter Explains His Actions

        Gloria, you stated this to me:

        “This is another bible verse about speaking in tongues: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.”

        This scripture you give does not support what you think it does. First, biblical speaking in tongues is not “groans,” biblical speaking in tongues is “speaking.”

      4. Gloria,

        Since you used Romans 8:26 to try to support speaking in tongues, I would like to talk more here about how speaking in tongues is actual speaking and not groans, as you suggested.

        From the scriptures I previously quoted, you can see that the speaking in tongues of the Gentiles showed the Jews that God granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.

        I would like to take this time to also show with scripture, that the churches don’t usually practice even what the Bible says about speaking in tongues. Nor do a lot of people understand about using it for personal prayer.

        Those speaking in tongues could declare the wonders of God (Acts 2:11). They could also praise God in tongues (Acts 10:46). Not every one spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5). If someone spoke in tongues, then they should pray that they should also interpret what they say, for the benefit of others (1 Corinthians 14:13). Even when praying and singing while speaking in tongues, the speaker, for himself also, should interpret what he is saying so that it is fruitful for his mind (1 Corinthians 14:14,15). If there is no interpreter in church, then the speaker should keep quiet and speak to himself and God (1 Corinthians 14:28).

      5. Victoria,

        Your comment: This scripture you give does not support what you think it does. First, biblical speaking in tongues is not “groans,” biblical speaking in tongues is “speaking.”

        My Comment: You say biblical speaking in tongues is “speaking.” We can agree that 1 Corinthians 14:1-2 says “tongue” is speaking to God. Mark 16, indicates those that believe, speakng in new tongues would be a sign.

        I asked Why would you not think that it is still active? I apologize for repeating the question, but did I miss our answer?

        As a believer in Jesus Christ, have you ever seen anyone at your church, or anyone who also believes in Jesus, speak in tongues under the Holy Spirit?

      6. Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

        When we are weak, and we cannot even put words together to pray to God, when we can only groan, the Holy Spirit helps us, he intercedes for us.

      7. Also I’d like to add because I believe Romans 8:26 is not the only bible verse I used about speaking in tongues.

        Mark 16:15-18 is another one, and explains it in more details about what a believer in the name of Jesus Christ. “And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

      8. Gloria,

        You said:
        “You say biblical speaking in tongues is “speaking.” We can agree that 1 Corinthians 14:1-2 says “tongue” is speaking to God. Mark 16, indicates those that believe, speakng in new tongues would be a sign.
        I asked Why would you not think that it is still active? I apologize for repeating the question, but did I miss our answer?”

        Can you tell me what scripture in Mark 16 you are talking about?
        Again, the reason speaking in tongues is not active anymore is because it was for a sign to the Jews, during the laying of the foundation of the church.
        The sign has been given, and the foundation has been laid.
        Scripture even tells use that tongues will stop.

        1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

      9. I wrote it above. But here it is again.

        Mark 16:15-18 is another one, and explains it in more details about what a believer in the name of Jesus Christ. “And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

        You quote bible scripture 1 Corinthians 13:8

        But notice this verse which falls right after that: 1 Corinthians 14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

        I guess I am surprised at your view of speaking in tongues. As I said, I have seen believers in Christ speak in tongues (my sister in law) is one of them. As I also said, not everyone who believes in Christ has this gift, but I just assumed you know, or at least seen that the gift is still active in (some) true believers of Christ.

        God Bless.

      10. Gloria,

        Many Christians feel that when they speak in tongues that they are having a closer relationship with God and Jesus. But the truth is what will give us a closer relationship with God and Jesus.

        As I mentioned before, I once spoke in tongues and even interpreted what I said.
        The Holy Spirit prompted me to study about it in the Bible.
        I have now in this thread been sharing you what I’ve learned.

        Yes I’ve heard people speak in tongues before.

        Christians who claim to speak in tongues nowadays also claim that they are speaking the language of angels, as Paul states in the following scripture….

        1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

        The Bible says that angels are ministering spirits to those who will inherit salvation. The people of the earth are those who will inherit salvation. So, the angels need to know all the languages of the people on earth!

        Hebrews 1:14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

        So even if the biblical speaking in tongues did not sound like any earthly language, (as many nowadays tongue speakers claim it is not an earthly language), Speaking in tongues was still HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD AS DIFFERENT EARTHLY FOREIGN LANGUAGES….by the foreigners themselves (see Acts 2:6 and 2:11).

        Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

        Again, the language angels need to minister to us is with our earthly languages. So, like the foreigners who understood those speaking in tongues, in their native language, we too would need to understand in our language what the angels were saying to us.

      11. Yes, but you have to admit Victoria that there are many biblical verses that support speaking in tongues as being a gift from the Holy Spirit.

        Like I have said, I have never spoken in tongues, but have had other experiences with the Holy Spirit.

        The bible would not have said to desire the spiritual gift so that you may prophesy, if it would have been something that would have been inactive in the future.

        God Bless.

      12. Gloria,

        You said:

        “Yes, but you have to admit Victoria that there are many biblical verses that support speaking in tongues as being a gift from the Holy Spirit.”

        I don’t understand what you are saying here. Of course the Bible tells us that speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit.
        We also should not follow false doctrines, made from the imaginations of people, yes, many time well meaning people.
        Please consider carefully all the scriptures I’ve given.
        God bless you, Gloria. I love all my Christian brothers and sisters, yet some of them get really mean when they are faced to question their beliefs. I want to thank you for being so kind.

      13. Gloria,

        You said:

        “The bible would not have said to desire the spiritual gift so that you may prophesy, if it would have been something that would have been inactive in the future.”

        The Bible tells us that tongues “will be stilled.” The Bible also tells us that prophecies will “cease.” And knowledge will “pass away.”

        1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

      14. Dear Victoria

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

        My reply:

        The Bible do not say, that there is no tongues, and do not say that prophecy has ended. Neither does the Bible say, that there is no knowledge.

        If I say, Jesus will return to Earth, I do prophecy. If I say I have experienced that Jesus is alive, I do share my knowledge. And If i do speak in tongues, they have still not passed away. Not yet. Because what is perfect Has not yet arrived. Every knee and every tongues, has still not said that Jesus Christ is Lord. But that day will surely take place. Amen.

      15. Victoria,

        So now in this day and age, a true believer in Christ- do you agree that they can speak in tongues under the Holy Spirit?

        Like I said, the Lord has blessed me with things (some things I cannot even described. I will never consider myself worthy enough to be in Christ’s presence. But one of the things I have seen is true believers in Christ speaking in tongues. It is active today, and is a true gift of the Holy Spirit. I have also seen many who have (faked) the speaking in tongues.

        I too, want you to consider the verses I have pointed out to you. And Thank you also for your kindness and conversation.

        I still am learning more and more about how great Jesus Christ is 🙂

        May God Bless you and your family.

      16. Gloria,

        I am a true believer in Christ, yet I, for a while, practiced glossolalia, which I thought was the biblical speaking in tongues, and it is not. So, since you are convinced of what these Christians do because they are “true Christians,” well, that is not proof that they did not fall into false doctrine.
        The Bible tells us that tongues will be stilled. No, I do not believe what is believed, taught, and practiced by Charismatics are biblical speaking in tongues.
        I really hope that you reread everything I posted, and not skim over any part of it. I really do think that you would not ask me to consider the scriptures you posted if you really did read all my biblical explanation to your questions.
        I have been in the presence of Christ Jesus. Maybe one day we can share our powerful testimonies with each other.

        I really have enjoyed debating this topic with you. I love talking about God’s Word.

        I want to leave you with some information I talked about here, just condensed for you to easily search the scriptures yourself.

        Speaking in tongues was a gift given, a sign, given (1 Cor 14:21) during the laying of the foundation of the Church (Hebrews 2:1-4; Eph 2:19). The sign was given, and the foundation is laid. Speaking in tongues by the Gentiles showed the Jews that God granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). Tongue speakers spoke mysteries (1 Cor 14:2), the mystery of the gospel has been given (Eph 6:19). Speaking in tongues is the language of angels (1 Cor 13:1), angels minister to humans (Hebrews 1:14). Speaking in tongues is to be understood by humans in earthly languages (Acts 2:6,11). Speaking in tongues would be stilled (1 Cor 13:8).

      17. Victoria,

        The bible also tells us that tongues in Mark 16 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

        Your comment: I am a true believer in Christ, yet I, for a while, practiced glossolalia, which I thought was the biblical speaking in tongues, and it is not. So, since you are convinced of what these Christians do because they are “true Christians,” well, that is not proof that they did not fall into false doctrine.

        My Comment: I never said you were not a true believer of Christ. I never even hinted that anywhere. I have been in the presence of Christ. My pastor speaks in tongues, my pastor has also driven out demons in people who are possessed. He believes completely in Jesus Christ. He preaches from the new and old testament. He is not preaching ANY FALSE doctrine. So if your hinting, that because he does this in the name of Christ, that he is “charismatics” then with all due respect, you are very wrong.

        I have read your reasons, and the bible verses. Because I do not agree with you, does not mean that I skimmed through anything. And yes, I do want you to consider my views and the bible verses that I posted, just as you want me to consider yours. You believe your right, and I believe I’m right. But the main thing, is that we both believe in Jesus Christ.

        God Bless.

      18. Ivar,
        But you are not making any new prophecies. You are not going beyond what is written in the Bible. You are not adding to what the Bible says. And, you are not giving any new knowledge to what is already revealed to us from God’s written word.

        You said:

        “The Bible do not say, that there is no tongues, and do not say that prophecy has ended. Neither does the Bible say, that there is no knowledge.”

        The Bible DOES say that. It’s the Word of God that I have shown you. Thank you for letting me post.

        1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

      19. Dear Sue.

        Shalom.

        You missed my point.

        1 Corinthians 13:10
        but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

        You have to read Paul’s message in context. The imperfect has not yet disappeared. Because all prophecies has not yet been fulfilled. That will not happen before Jesus comes back and bring an end to all prophecies. When perfection is here, no more need to prophecy his second coming. No more need for anything imperfect.

      20. Gloria,

        From what you write here to me, you surely misunderstand what I said.
        I never said you said I wasn’t a true Christian. Please reread and reread again, if needed.

        Also, you keep bringing up Mark 16. And I keep telling you through scripture,that the the gift of tongues was given, and that was during the laying of the foundation.
        You are not laying a foundation, neither is your pastor.

        God bless.

      21. Ivar,

        You said:

        “You have to read Paul’s message in context. The imperfect has not yet disappeared. Because all prophecies has not yet been fulfilled. That will not happen before Jesus comes back and bring an end to all prophecies. When perfection is here, no more need to prophecy his second coming. No more need for anything imperfect.”

        You might talk about, and preach about, and teach about the prophecies that are already in the Bible, but you are not prophecizing about things that are not in the Bible.
        Does this explanation help you better understand what I am saying?

      22. The Bible, Old Testament and New Testament has prophets, prophets who were told things by God.
        Ivar is not a prophet like those in the Bible…telling us things about God that are not in the Bible. If Ivar did that, then he would be adding to the Word of God, and I don’t think he would do that.

      23. Victoria,

        You have a way of coming off as saying your view is only the right way. You tell me to consider your view of what you believe the bible says, and I tell you to do the same. We must always have an open heart when it comes to Jesus Christ and his words. We are only men, created by him, and always make mistakes.

        I quote Mark 16 because the bible verse gives us a view of what a believer in Christ can do in his name.

        I also quote Corinthians 14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. *end* because this scripture tells us that speaking in tongues is a gift, and speaks with God.

        Your Comment: You are not laying a foundation, neither is your pastor.

        My Comment: Now you misunderstand what I’m saying. I never say I was laying a foundation, nor my pastor, nor Ivar, nor my sister in law or the many others who has been given the gift by the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues. Nor are they “faking” tongues, or fell into false doctrine. They believe in Christ, and again they received the gift of speaking in tongues. If I can’t convince you with the Word of Christ, then I shall pray that Jesus shows you the truth about speaking in tongues.

        More on speaking in tongues:
        1 Corinthians 12:4-10 (King James Version)

        4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

        5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

        6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

        7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

        8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

        9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

        10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

      24. Victoria,

        Ivar’s comment: If I say, Jesus will return to Earth, I do prophecy.

        Your Comment: Ivar is not a prophet like those in the Bible…telling us things about God that are not in the Bible.

        Ivar never said he was a prophet. He said he prophesy’s. Read Acts 2:17″‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. *end*

        That is exactly what I think Ivar meant.

      25. Gloria,

        I understood what Ivar said.

        Victoria,

        Ivar’s comment: “If I say, Jesus will return to Earth, I do prophecy.”

        Gloria’s comment: “Ivar never said he was a prophet. He said he prophesy’s. Read Acts 2:17″‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. *end*
        That is exactly what I think Ivar meant.”

        I understood what Ivar meant. I’ll say it again… Ivar is not prophecising new prophecies. He is only repeating prophecies already given to us.

      26. Gloria,

        You have brought up Acts 2:17 a couple of times now in support of your beliefs of speaking in tongues, in particular the scripture that says “In the last days,..”

        In Acts 2:17 is when Peter addresses the crowd. Peter is explaining to the crowd what they had witnessed with the speaking in tongues. Peter quotes the prophet Joel.
        the last days were what Peter explained what was happening in Peter’s time, at that time.
        The apostles refered to those times as the last days.

        It is not supportive of the tongue speaking done in churches today.

      27. Victoria,

        You said: It is not supportive of the tongue speaking done in churches today.

        My Comment: Just in general, have you ever admitted your error in anything? Me, I make mistakes, and I try and study the bible everyday, because I will never feel like I know God’s word enough.

        You have a view where you think only your way is correct.

        1 Corinthians 12:4-10 is one of the more clearest verses of the gifts of God. Verse 11 goes on to say: “It is the one and only Holy Spirit who distributes these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.”

        And earlier you referenced: 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.*end*

        But the following verses (9-10) says: For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
        When these things stop, as there will be no need for them, will be when that which is perfect is come.

        verses 11 and 12 say: 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
        12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

        “Then” in verse 12, refers to the same time as “then” in verse 10, when it says, “when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”

        The “perfect” is Jesus Christ.

        Obviously, we do not see Jesus face to face now. The time is coming when we will be face to face with Christ, living together forever with Him. Then we shall know, just as we are also known. Then prophecies, tongues, and the gift of the word of knowledge will no longer be necessary.

        That will be when (verse 10), that which is perfect is come. That which is in part will be done away then.

        I don’t know if you read 1 Corinthians 12:4-10 But I’d like for you to re-read it.

        In any case, I belive you’ll find your own interpretation of what it means.

        I believe it is time for me to bow out of this conversation, and just state that we both have different views on what the word of God says.

        God Bless

      28. Gloria,

        Why are you talking to me like that?…asking if I ever admitted error. If you really did pay attention to what I wrote, then you will see that I admitted to of gotten into the false doctrine of glossolalia, what you call “speaking in tongues.”
        I also got into Calvinism briefly, but Jesus revealed the truth to me about that too.

        Why did you bring up 1 Corinthians 12:4-10 again?
        I know speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

        You said:
        “But the following verses (9-10) says:
        For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
        When these things stop, as there will be no need for them, will be when that which is perfect is come.”

        But you seem to not understand that you are not making any new prophesies. You are only repeating the prophesies that have already been made, and written in the Bible. You cannot make any new prophesies, or else you will be adding to God’s word.

        You said:
        “In any case, I belive you’ll find your own intrepretation of what it means.”

        I gave scripture to every belief I explained.

      29. Dear Victoria and Gloria.

        Shalom.

        I feel its good that we have different congregations. I would not mind speaking in tongues visiting the fellowship that Gloria attend. I understand that her pastor speaks in tongues, and that there are people there who can give the Church the interpretation of the such messages.

        This is exactly what Paul instructed.

        I would not mind visiting Victoria’s fellowship. And since there seems to be no one who can give the interpretation of such messages in tongues, I guess the Holy Spirit will not use me to give them such messages.

        I hope we can agree on this, and still be brothers and sisters in Christ, who love and care for each other.

      30. Victoria,

        Your comment: Why are you talking to me like that?…asking if I ever admitted error. If you really did pay attention to what I wrote, then you will see that I admitted to of gotten into the false doctrine of glossolalia, what you call “speaking in tongues.”

        My Comment: I speak to you this way because it seems that you will only see your way is right. The Bible is the Word of God that should be continuously learned by everyone.

        I bring up 1 Corinthians 12:4-10 because though you know that it is a gift from the Holy Spirit, you have wrongly concluded that it has ended.

        You quoted 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 and I included the following verses of that chapter (verses 9 through 12) to show you that you took verse 8 out of context, and that you should have included 9 though 12. I broke 9 to 12 down for you to show you that your interpretation of verse 8 was wrong. But again, I think you think you’re right, so I don’t really know why I’m writing this again honestly.

        Your Comment: But you seem to not understand that you are not making any new prophesies. You are only repeating the prophesies that have already been made, and written in the Bible. You cannot make any new prophesies, or else you will be adding to God’s word.

        My Comment: Did you not read where I said I do not make any new prophesies? I would NEVER EVER EVER add to God’s word. You pulled 1 CORINTHIANS 13:9-10 and you misquote me. I explained thoroughly why 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 (your) meaning of it is wrong. I followed that up with a breakdown of verses 8-12, yet you still pull one verse out of context. You musn’t take a bible verse out of context. You must read the verse before, after, and even the whole chapter.

        You said: I gave scripture to every belief I explained.

        My Comment: And I did the same.

        God Bless.

      31. Ivar,

        I just want to say Thank you for allowing us to use your blog to debate the Holy Word of God.

        I don’t get to do that often where I live. I’m still learning alot from God’s word.

        Because we debate, doesnt’ mean I dislike anyone. I believe we should treat everyone with respect. I make errors everyday, and I apologize to all if I’ve disrespected you at some point or another.

        Like you said, we don’t have to agree, but we can still love each other in Christ.

        God Bless.

      32. Dear Gloria.

        Shalom.

        This site is an open site with debate on faith. I am the editor, and I do spam people once in a while. Reasons for spamming are threats of violence, filthy language or insults without regrets.

        You are my sister in faith. I do agree with you in regards to the doctrine of speaking in tongues. I might disagree with you in regards to other topics, but hope and pray you will still accept me as a Christian brother of yours.

    2. Gloria,

      Jesus has shown me the truth about speaking in tongues.

      I have shown you from scriptures what Jesus revealed to me.

      You are now getting unpleasant to discuss this with. I really do think that I’ve shown you all I can. It is up to you now to believe scripture or not.

      1. Victoria,

        And I have shown you where speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit and is not at all inactive.

        As to your comment, I am now becoming unpleasant to discuss this with: I’d like for us to debate on a level where the word unpleasant is never used. But if that’s the way you feel, I cannot change it.

        I do believe in scripture and I believe in Jesus Christ, and the fact that speaking in tongues is from the Holy Spirit, and you are communicating wtih God.

        1 Corinthians 12:4-10

        God Bless.

      2. Victoria,

        How do you know that “Jesus has shown me the truth about speaking in tongues” ?

        How do you know that you haven’t just imagined it?

        And how do you reconcile your view with that of a Pentecostal who says “Jesus has given me the gift of tongues” ?

        The difference between us is that I am not prepared to say that my personal belief is definitely the right one. I’ve studied the scriptures and concluded that there is a degree of doubt on this subject.

        But as I said earlier, our personal beliefs are actually irrelevant. We have to study the Bible and see what it says. At the moment it’s not clear what it says. The comments here illustrate that – we all have different understandings. Perhaps one day, scholarship will advance and there will be agreement amongst theologians. But until that day comes, I think we should be humble and accept that we don’t know for certain.

  7. Here’s another thought. We do not know what was meant by “speaking in tongues” when it appears in the new testament. The practice has not been constant throughout church history. When it has appeared, it seems to have been associated with short-lived fringe groups or heretical sects. It’s only in the past 50 to 100 years that it has become relatively widespread and mainstream, and, as I said earlier, there’s a lot of dubious stuff associated with it. So how do we know that, when people speak in tongues today, it is the same as the biblical gift? The answer is that we don’t. It’s all an assumption based on personal experiences, experiences that are also found in non-Christian religions. We’d expect genuine Christian tongues to be different to fake pagan ones, but I don’t think there’s any evidence for that. This suggests that great caution is needed.

    By the way, I’m from a Charismatic background myself, so I’m not in the cessationist camp. It’s just that I’ve been willing to think about these things and question them, and so far I’m unable to come with a definite answer.

    1. Richard,

      I agree with what you say, except for the part about our not knowing what is meant by speaking in tongues. I believe I’ve shown with the scriptures what it means.

      I do want to say that you make excellent points, and very good to make that warning.

      Christians need to be careful about what doctrines they follow.

  8. @ Victoria and Gloria,

    Your discussion / debate / argument illustrates well my view. We cannot say for certain whether tongues have ceased or they continue. Both are valid interpretations of scripture. The important reference to “perfection” in I Cor 13:10 can be taken to mean the completion of the New Testament canon (by cessationists) or the second coming (by continuationists). I don’t think we can conclusively come down on one side. The same is true for every bible verse relevant to this subject – you’d each interpret them in different ways.

    I do find the continuationist argument more convincing – it seems to be a simpler and plainer reading of the texts, and requires less creative expository gymnastics. But I still have concerns about tongues today, as previously expressed.

    You also well illustrate my point that personal beliefs are of no value in the debate. Victoria believes that God has shown her that speaking in tongues has stopped; Gloria believes that God has shown her that speaking in tongues is for today. You cannot both be right! Maybe you both “know in part”, and one day we’ll find out who is right. The answer may suprise us – perhaps we’ve all got completely the wrong idea.

    What I can say is completely unacceptable is when tongues are associated with or brought on through emotional or psychological manipulation. This happens all too often in the charismatic and pentecostal worlds, but frequently through ignorance. Here are a couple of links discussing this: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/pentecos.htm and http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/former.htm

    1. Dear Richard.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      Victoria believes that God has shown her that speaking in tongues has stopped; Gloria believes that God has shown her that speaking in tongues is for today. You cannot both be right!

      My reply:

      If feel you misquote Victoria. She has written that she did speak in tongues, and even got the interpretation. She has not answered my question: Why she stopped listening to such messages?

      To say that God has stopped sending messages in different languages, and in specific messages in form of tongues, is like saying that all Pentecostals are fakes. There are very few people who call them selves Christians, that will take such a stand against pentecostal theology.

    2. Richard,

      I just want to say that I always look to the bible for what is correct and what is wrong. That will always be my first resource. So publishing links isn’t something I am most likely going to “follow.”

      I’ve used Mark 16 verses 15-18 numerous times because, in God’s word it gives us believers a view of things we can do in Jesus Christ name. One of those views was of course speaking in tongues, which we discussed earlier.

      Another view is casting out demons. So my thing is this: “if” the laying down of foundations was for speaking in tongues, wouldn’t that be also the case for casting out demons? But CLEARLY today, I have seen up close and personal believers in Christ cast out demons.

      Again, I have seen Benny Hinn “fake” tongues, and I have seen believers in Christ, witness, preach, in the Holy Spirit, and in between there words have the gift of tongues.

      God Bless.

      1. Gloria, I agree with looking to the Bible. But bear in mind that our reading of the Bible is colored by our life experiences. So sometimes, reading something written by someone with different views or different experiences can help open our eyes. That’s why I posted those links.

        Incidentally, the last few verses in Mark are not found in the earliest manuscripts. There’s a question mark over whether they were part of the original gospel. So I’m not sure that we should use them as a proof-text or anything similar.

    3. Richard,

      You are convinced that you don’t know for sure about speaking in tongues. But I am sure about it. It feels good to know for sure. Keep studying about it, it might be revealed to you. You feel that no one can know for sure, but you are wrong about that.
      The people who “speak in tongues,” they aren’t speaking a language that someone else might understand in their foreign language.

      1. Victoria,

        It might “feel good” to know for sure, but we’re called to trust God, not our feelings. And plenty of other people say they also know for sure, but they have the opposite belief to you. How can we tell who is right?

        I agree that a lot of tongues are not a known language, and a lot of these may well be false. But there are stories about people hearing someone speak in tongues and recognising and understanding it. I don’t know how true these are, but some could be.

      2. Richard,

        To you I say stop trying to be everyone’s judge. And respect your own words when you say you don’t know much. If you don’t know much about the word of God, then stop trying to teach everyone that it is okay not to know.

        You wasted everyone’s time just talking about what you think of me personally and putting me down. I see why you do this though, because you don’t know about God’s word.

      3. Victoria,

        I don’t know if you’ll read or respond to this, but I want to give you a reply.

        I am not trying to “judge” you or anyone else. I’d hope we’re trying to have a mature discussion about an issue of Christian doctrine and biblical interpretation. You have presented certain views that I feel have significant weaknesses, both exegetically and logically. Is it judging to point these weaknesses out? I don’t think so. And you are doing the same thing when you disagree with the approach of people like Ivar and Gloria.

        My view is that there are different valid interpretations of the Bible, and it’s not possible to come to a definite conclusion. To me, that’s consistent with the facts, the way of Jesus, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit called humility. Are you not being proud when you say you have the only right view?

        I have a particular concern with the way you claim divine backing for your opinion (you say “Jesus has shown me the truth about speaking in tongues”). To me, that’s a manipulative attitude as it says that you have a direct line to God, you must be right, and no-one should dare to disagree with you. It’s not the right way to conduct yourself in a discussion. And the problem is that other people will claim divine backing for the opposite view! Those two views are irreconcilable and non-negotiable, so we don’t get anywhere. All it results in is two lots of Christians with entrenched opinions, each believing they are right and the others are wrong.

        That’s why I stress the importance not of personal beliefs, but of studying the Bible and considering how the whole body of Christ (to whom the Holy Spirit is given, both collectively and individually) understands it.

      4. Dear Richard.

        Shalom, and thanks for ministering on this blog.

        Not all in the Bible need interpretations. There are statement of Jesus that can not, and should not, be misunderstood. There are also statements in the Bible, that open up for different practices. Like different doctrine’s in regards to praying in tongues.

        Victoria’s mistake, is to make not central doctrine”s, where we should be allowed to disagree, and personal revelations, become a question of salvation. That is a sectarian attitude, and lead us away from grace.

        1. Man shall be saved by faith alone, in Christ Jesus alone, separated from Works.

        This is the main doctrine, that separate us from different version of false Christianity, other religions and New Age copies of “Jesus”.

        Please tell me Richard, if you accept and support the doctrine of Justification by faith alone.

  9. @ ivarfjeld :

    Let me go back on topic. I hope you’ll have the grace to approve this comment.

    I’ve just noticed that your opening line misrepresents the LM statement.

    Later on in your post, you quote their full statement “Charismatic Roman Catholics: Some are truly born again and committed to the Lordship of Jesus…”.

    But you twist this into your opening line “Charismatic Roman Catholics are born again” and miss out the important qualifying word “some”.

    With respect, this behaviour is completely unacceptable for a Christian. You are distorting a quotation in order to support your subsequent attacks on the Lausanne Movement. By saying that some catholic charismatics are born-again, they make it clear that some are not and therefore require evangelism, just as plenty of other churchgoers in protestant denominations do.

    There are people who aren’t christians in all churches. There’s a video on YouTube of Todd Friel talking to a couple of Hillsong members, and it’s obvious that their understanding of the gospel is so feeble that they’re probably not christians. Years ago I went to a very conservative baptist church, yet there were full baptised members of this church who were not christians.

    The LM is not giving an unqualified acceptance to all charismatic catholics as christians, something you seem to want to force upon them so you can then condemn them. I think you need to stop and think very carefully about the ethical implications of your behavior.

    When I was at university 20 years ago, I had a good friend who was a charismatic catholic. I can say categorically that he was born again.

    We may wonder why born-again christians (charismatic or not) choose to remain in the roman catholic church, but it’s a fact that some do. And the two are not mutually exclusive. People are saved by Jesus, not by the church they attend. And the suggestion (often made) that every catholic believes all the official doctrines of their church is completely false.

    Incidentally, it’s the Lausanne Movement (not Lusanne) – it’s a bit worrying that you can’t even spell it properly.

    1. Dear Richard.

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      I really do rejoice in your comment.

      Since I did not misquoted the LM, but clearly published the word “some”, I feel you misunderstood my message. The LM do accept the Pope as a Christian leader.

      Please answer me: Is the Pope a Christian leader?

      1. @ ivarfjeld,

        There’s two ways I can interpret your question.

        (1) You could be asking if the pope himself is a christian. The simple answer is I don’t know, that is a matter between himself and God.

        (2) You could be asking if the pope is a leader of christians. Yes, it’s fair to say that a lot of catholics are not christians, but some are. So I would give a qualified yes, I would say he’s a leader of christians.

        Anyway, I obviously have major problems with catholic doctrine, but the point is this. The Lausanne Movement is about taking the gospel to the world. They have concluded that having an aggresive anti-catholic stance does not help with this. I share that approach. The people who have come to that decision are highly experienced church leaders, evangelists, and theologians. Who are we to disagree with them? What’s your qualification?

    2. Richard,

      A Christian obeys the commands of Jesus Christ. A Christian separates themself. I was a devout Catholic. Jesus saved me and I am born again. There is no way I could still be involved in the Catholic religion. Do those “born again Catholics” that you defend, do they still believe in teachings of the Catholic Church? If yes, then they are not eating from Jesus Christ.

      1. @ Victoria,

        The simple answer is that I don’t know. I haven’t had any real contact with catholics, charismatic or otherwise, for 20 years or so.

        But as I said before, it is a mistake to assume that every roman catholic believes everything that their church teaches.

        “Separation”, which you mentioned, is also a contentious issue, and there is a range of beliefs on this subject. Don’t assume that everyone interprets the Bible in the same way that you do.

        Just out of interest, what church do you belong to?

      2. Richard,

        You don’t want to admit that there are Christians who do know more about the scriptures than you. That seems to be your problem…you don’t understand something from the Bible— so you believe no body else is able to either.

        You say it is a mistake to assume that every Roman Catholic believes everything their church teaches. The Catholic religion teaches you must believe everything they teach! Not only that, what do you think a true Christian should overlook with the Catholic teaching? It is no small matter to belong to a religion and support it even by just showing up, a religion that has statues every where, with people venerating them…bowing to…praying in front of…holding the hand of…and even kissing these statues, and that is a command from the Catholic Chruch to do these things.

        Or maybe you think it is a small matter to belong to a church who is in control of a Pope, a man who is called “Holy Father,” a name reserved only for God.
        Maybe you think that it is no small matter to belong to a church who callse Mary “co-redeemer”?
        I can go on and on, but I hope this is enough for you to get the message.
        A person can’t just leave this sinful world…but we don’t have to deliberately go and worship at a church whose religion is full of falseness and things God hates.

      3. Victoria,

        Your comment: You don’t want to admit that there are Christians who do know more about the scriptures than you.

        My Comment: says the pot to the kettle.

      4. Gloria,

        You falsey judged me…so that means that you are as black as the kettle and pot.

        Now I know that you too have a problem with the knowing someone else might know more about the scriptures than you.
        I’ve proven to you that I admit error, when I use to believe in the glossolalia you believe in.

      5. Victoria,

        Your Comment: I’ve proven to you that I admit error, when I use to believe in the glossolalia you believe in.

        My Comment: I believe in no glossolalia. The only God I believe in is Jesus Christ. He is the one who has saved me from sin. I put myself in his hands 100%.

      6. @ Victoria,

        I’m fully aware that there are people who know far more about the scriptures than I do. I’ve just listened to 3 hours of lectures from a leading evangelical theologian, and I assure that has made me realise how little I know. But what on earth made you say that? And how do you know that your understanding is right?

        As far as catholics go, firstly, the fact that the Vatican says people must believe all the official doctrines does not mean that they all do. Catholics are no more clones than evangelicals are. Secondly, I can’t speak for catholics so I don’t know how the born-again christians in the catholic church cope with its teaching. Maybe they just ignore it or consider it to be wrong. Maybe they don’t interpret it in the way you do.

        You dodged my question about what church you belong to. I wouldn’t be surprised if you don’t belong to a local church. If you do, please enlighten us as to the name of it and any wider group it is part of…

      7. Gloria,

        You said earlier that you do believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues done by Charismatics.

        So maybe you admit the truth about it now?

        I want to take this time to show you all here that the King James Version has in 1 Corinthians 14:2, 4, 13, 14, 19, and 27 the word “unknown” written in italicized letters, that means that it does not occur in any Greek manuscript. The word “unknown” was added by translators. This should be helpful and important information to those wanting to study about speaking in tongues. The Holy Spirit did not direct Paul to write that the tongue is unknown.

      8. Richard,

        Obviously the eyes of your heart have not been opened. It is obvious from the things you say here today.

        As for what you say about Catholics not believing everything the Catholics teach…how many teachings can a Catholic do away with and still be called a Catholic? The Catholic religion teaches that Catholics are not to do away with ANY of their teachings, and that doing away with any of the Catholic teaching would make you apostate.

        Now you keep asking me about what church I belong to, and I’ve told you. Your not understanding my answer shows that you will not understand no matter what I say.

      9. Victoria,

        Please stop playing games.

        We are all members of the body of Christ.

        The fact that you have repeatedly refused to tell us which particular local church you belong to makes me think that you don’t belong to one. This is against scripture.

      10. Richard,

        You don’t know scripture well enough to speak to me the way you have.

        Don’t accuse me of playing games. We don’t have to belong to any denomination. A denomination did not die for us. Jesus Christ died for us. Nor do we have to go to church at all in order to be a Christian.
        As for what church I might go to if I wanted to, to share in the Lord’s supper, or to take someone for a baptism, or to just sing some praise music with others….I will not go to a church anymore where they speak in tongues, or if they believe in infant baptism, or in the real presence of blood and flesh in the bread and wine, if they don’t believe Jesus is the invisible God made visible, nor in a denomination that believes in Calvinism. Those are majorly obvious false doctrines that are not easily ignored, nor would I want to ignore those things.

        I will not label myself any denomination, nor even “non-denominationsl.” I am very careful to what I listen to, and I check on what I am taught. I don’t have the desire to learn every single thing a denomination teaches, nor will I make a commitment to a denomination, to only learn latter of a belief they have that I don’t agree with.

        As I’ve said a couple times before—I belong to the body of Christ.

      11. Victoria,

        Your Comment: You said earlier that you do believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues done by Charismatics.

        My Comment: Are you twisting my words around? Where is it that I said that? I told you that the speaking in tongues by the HOLY SPIRIT WHICH IS APART OF CHRIST is still very active.

        I explained further why I thought you were wrong here: 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 (your) meaning of it is wrong. I followed that up with a breakdown of verses 8-12, yet you still pull one verse out of context. You musn’t take a bible verse out of context. You must read the verse before, after, and even the whole chapter. Those were my exact words.

        AND GET THIS I even went a step further and contacted my Pastor through email. And this is his EXACT WORDS THROUGH EMAIL:

        Gloria,
        Here’s a quick thought on those verses. Because the Corinthian church was more concerned of the gifts of the Spirit and the move of God in the church, they overlooked the most important aspect of the church, Love. All the manifestations of God through the gifts of the Spirit are useful and necessary while the church is here on earth. But when Christ comes and when we have reached perfection in Him, there will be no need for the gifts, prophecies, tongues and so forth. What is most important of all is the Love we have for one another in our relationship with Christ. The comparison use of a “child” to relate to the church, talks about maturing in Christ and when we reach the fulness in Christ, and when He comes, we do not have the needs of the manifestations of God through the gifts because we will be already in the presence of God.
        Even as of now, we do not see or understand everything of God, and its compare as looking through a “poor reflection in a mirror”. In Bible days, the mirrors that were use to look at were’nt as clear and as perfect as the mirrors we use today. So, Paul uses that comparison to make the Christians understand that as we grow in faith and in maturity in Christ, we will see things better because we will see Christ face to face, just as He is and know the fulness thereof of what we have accepted and believe by faith in the present.
        I trust this may sounds clear to you.
        Pastor Carlos.

        ——————————————–

        Victoria, Part of being a christian is being humble. You were wrong. You need to realize that, so we can move forward from this.

        God Bless.

      12. Victoria,

        I’m trying to discuss things on a mature and adult level. You seem set on doing the opposite. Read I Cor 13:11 – you’re being childish.

        I never said you have to belong to a denomination.

        As to whether or not you “have to go to church at all in order to be a Christian”, the clear teaching and example of the Bible is that faith is lived out as part of a local community of believers, a local church. This view has been accepted by all Christians for 2000 years. If you’re not wanting to join a local church, I would question whether you are truly are a Christian.

        I’ve belonged to a local church for 20 years. I don’t agree with all its beliefs and practices, and I know that many other members also don’t. Most of us have belonged to other churches with different distinctives at some time in the past, and this has influenced our personal convictions. But we all regard the members of our church as our immediate spiritual family and we are committed to sharing our lives of faith together. It also provides a base for us to reach out to the non-christians around us.

        Also, we don’t see commitment to our church as requiring a commitment to all that our denomination teaches – we welcome all christians. Yes, some churches do require their members to give assent to a particular statement of faith, but even so, you can still attend them and worship with them without having to agree with all their specifics.

        Our sermon on Sunday evening was from Ephesians 4:1-16, which is quite relevant to this discussion, particularly the first 5 verses. We live in peace with our fellow Christians, placing more emphasis on the unity we share in Christ than the things that divide us.

        Reading your comment, I get the impression that you take a different approach. You come across as an extremely proud and arrogant person who looks down on all other christians. You are convinced that you are right and everyone else is wrong. You refuse to associate with your brothers and sisters in Christ. If this is the case, it is a lamentable, even sinful, attitude, and one I believe you need to repent of before God.

      13. Gloria,

        You are wrong when you accuse me of twisting your words and taking scripture out of context. Now you are just attacking me because you can’t defend your beliefs.

        You keep insisting, and now through with your pastor, that people still prophesize. I will say it again, you are not prophesizing anything that is not already prophesized in the Bible. Again, you are not telling any new prophecies.

        You keep falsely accusing me of taking scripture out of context. You need to tell me exactly what scripture and explanation I gave. Show me where you misunderstand, but stop falsely accusing me.

        And if you would like to move on from this conversation…then do so, but don’t accuse me of not letting you.

      14. Richard,

        I only read just a little bit of the blasphemy you said to me.

        You cannot judge me…only God can judge me.

        I see that you have a hard time obeying the word of God, probably because there is very little you understand.

        I’m done talking to you. You malign the truth.

      15. Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        I feel you have turned into legalism, and there is not much grace in your messages. I have experienced that people who feel they are the only true believers, basically have left the right track. This is a sectarian attitude, and examples of people on the wrong path.

        I do still consider you my sister in faith, but would like you to admit that there are matters of theology, where Christians can agree that we disagree, without accusing the opposite party of falsehood.

        In regards to the perfect congregation. There are non. We are all human beings, who commit mistakes. Read about the seven Churches in the book of revelation. Jesus has issues with all of them.

        The only perfect “Churches” on Earth are sects, that have gone astray. They are perfect in their own mind and attitude. If you attend such a congregation, you should consider my request to repent, and leave that place behind.

      16. Victoria,

        Your comment: You keep insisting, and now through with your pastor, that people still prophesize. I will say it again, you are not prophesizing anything that is not already prophesized in the Bible. Again, you are not telling any new prophecies.

        My Comment: I prayed last night, that Christ would show me the correct path in these verses with you. Nevermind, that Ivar confirmed what I thought the scriptures said, I still prayed. Nevermind, that I have alot to still learn from the bible, I still prayed. And when I emailed my pastor, who by the way is a humble servant of the Lord, I asked him what he thought. Jesus confirmed what I thought the scriptures said through him. What you beilieve the scriptures to mean IS WRONG. If I were wrong, my pastor (or Ivar) would have no qualms in telling me I’m wrong. Yet, if you’re wrong, you get defensive, and refuse to look at the Word of God again, because you believe you are so right.

        You believe you are correct, and I have to agree with Richard, when I say I wonder what church you “PHYSICALLY” go to that believes in the Holy Spirit being inactive. Notice, I said the word PHYSICALLY.

        I accused you of twisting my words, because you said and I quote: “Gloria,You said earlier that you do believe in the nowadays speaking in tongues done by Charismatics.
        so maybe you admit the truth about it now?” That is twisting my words around, because I defended my belief with scripture from the Word of God.

        And I accused you of taking 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8 out of context because you refused to read the following verses after it, and acknowledge that perhaps you were wrong.

        I’M GOING TO REPEAT IT TO YOU AGAIN. I WOULD NEVER ADD TO GOD’S WORD. I WOULD NEVER PROPHESY WITHOUT GOD DIRECTING ME TO. You are wrong. Your view of this is wrong. 1 CORINTHIANS 13:8-12 PROVES THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT INACTIVE.

        You say I judge you, but Only Christ can do that. Revelation 20:12-15

        What I do is witness to you because in my heart and soul, I know that you are wrong. 1 Peter 3:15

        I feel that this conversation has now come to a full close. I cannot go back and forth with you when you refuse to consider, even a fraction that maybe you were in error.

        The most beautiful thing in this world Victoria, is to have the Holy Spirit fill you. Though I have never spoken in tongues, I’ve had the Holy Spirit direct me a few times to do certain things. The perfectness, and peace when your in God’s presence is something that no one should miss. I will continue to pray for you in hopes that you at least open your heart a little, and that Christ can touch you on this subject and show you the way. Nothing is impossible when it comes to God.

        Proverbs 15:31;33 says: He who listens to a life-giving rebuke will be at home among the wise. The fear of the LORD teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honor.

        James 4:10 says: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

        What does humility/humble mean?
        When you are humble, you can respond to and learn from criticism without defensiveness—whether it is deserved or not deserved. Likewise, you can be aware of your failures without being devastated.

        I won’t come back to this particular topic on Ivar’s blog again. We have debated for 2 days now.

        May God continue to bless you Victoria, and to you Richard, Ivar, and everyone else reading this blog. I’ll be back tomorrow, to read some more interesting articles 🙂

        The most important thing is that Christ died for our sins, and that he is coming soon.

        John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the life”

        Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

      17. Victoria,

        I’ll leave it to others to consider the relative merits of our different approaches to matters of faith.

        But the one thing I notice is that you repeatedly issue personal attacks at me rather than respond to the substantial questions I’ve raised. It suggests you have no response.

      18. Gloria,

        Just because your pastor and Ivar agree with you about speaking in tongues, that doesn’t make you all right. Tell me, how did you come to that conclusion about the word of God?

        Also Gloria, I’m going to ignore all the false accusations and personal feelings you have about me, except you should know this—you are listening to a spirit that is telling you evil lies about me not knowing the Holy Spirit. If you consider yourself prophesizing about me, then know that you have earned the title of false prophet.

      19. Ivar,

        You said:

        “I do still consider you my sister in faith, but would like you to admit that there are matters of theology, where Christians can agree that we disagree, without accusing the opposite party of falsehood.”

        You accuse me of falsehood. Don’t be a hypocrit.

        It is funny and quite silly that you falsely accuse me of legalism and not having grace. I don’t think you know what legalism is, not from what you say here anyway.

        There are churches out there that do not practice false doctrines taught possible by demons, and, or the imaginations of men.
        So, your are wrong if you think you can’t find a church that doesn’t practice glossolalia, infant baptism, Calvinism,etc.

        You just don’t know how to give up your false beliefs with grace, like you expect the Hindus, Catholics and Muslims, and everyone else that you talk to who you don’t agree with. Show us how to handle being corrected, Ivar.

        Repent Ivar of your false doctrine of speaking in tongues. Repent that you rejected the word of God. Repent that you falsely accuse a Christian sister.

        Here is the words of God that you deny…

        1 Corinthians 13:8
        Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

      20. Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        Repent Ivar of your false doctrine of speaking in tongues. Repent that you rejected the word of God. Repent that you falsely accuse a Christian sister.

        My reply:

        I have come to the conclusion, that I have to request you to discontinue your ministry on this blog. While other Christians on this blog have not accused you of anything, the accuser is using you to attack Christians who disagree with you, claiming that they are ministers of demonic activity. I have no problem being accused of “rejecting the Word of God”, but there will surely be others out there that might be pulled away from Jesus by statements like this.

        Please Victoria. Repent, and seek reconciliation. Quickly.

      21. Ivar,

        You are a hypocrite and Jesus warns about people like you saying evil things to Christians. I’m glad you are exposed. I don’t want to be part of what you do here. You have major problems, and you can’t even get rid of your own false doctrines while you try to tell Muslims and Catholics what to believe.
        You heard a lot of truth from me for a little while…I believe you were meant to hear the truth…and you will have to answer for rejecting it. I have nothing else to say to you or read on your site…as I shake the dust from my feet.

        Matthew 10:25
        Jesus said if theyIt is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!

      22. Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        It has been a pleasure knowing you, and I want to thank Jesus for connecting the two of us. May He always correct you, rebuke you and disciplining you, when you do mistakes. He will surely keep you and never forsake you, if you keep on listening to Him with a humble, correctable and teachable heart. Amen.

        May Jesus bless you and your family.

      23. Ivar,

        I sent you an email this morning. I just want to tell you that I’m sorry if I caused any tension between you and Victoria.

        That was not my intention. I do not know every meaning of the bible, and I try to study and read it several times a week. I come to this site, because I do love your exposure articles, and I do love interacting with others when it comes to the Word of God.

        To Victoria: I apologize if there is any tension, or for any wrongful feelings I’ve caused between us.

        I strongly believe in the Word of God, and I wanted you to see that the Holy Spirit is active in today’s church. Like, I said before one of the most beautiful things, is to feel the Holy Spirit and be in the presence of it.

        I hope you sincerely consider my words.

        God Bless you Victoria.

      24. Dear Gloria.

        Shalom.

        You have not caused any tension between me and my sister Victoria. I have requested Victoria to be more humble and inclusive. She has not been spammed, and is welcome back to this site after a rethink.

        We have to be able to disagree, without accusing each others about falsehood, and make disagreements a matter of salvation. Faith in Jesus our Master is all about mercy and grace.

        People on this site shall feel welcome, and free to debate issues related to faith.

      25. You are corect Ivar, and I believe (and I’m sure you agree) that treating people with respect is very important when discussing/preaching/witnessing the Word of God.

        God Bless.

  10. Dear Ivar and Gloria,

    I pray you give up the false doctrine you call “speaking in tongues.” You might not be ready to give it up now, for whatever reason, and for whatever reason you hang on to it, it is wrong that you choose it over the truth. But there is still hope for you both.

    Do you both speak “a” tongue? Or do you speak “many” tongues? The Bible tells us that some spoke in “a” tongue, or “tongues,” plural. You see, the tongue speaking Charismatics do are not speaking in “languages.” There are not speaking in one tongue/language, nor many tongues/languages.

    In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues…..

    Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

    And in Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages….

    Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

    Just look at the list of places the Jews had come from. There is mentioned, among other places, Judea; Asia; Egypt and parts of Libya; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); and Arabs.

    Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”

    (Notice that the word for ‘foreign languages’ clearly is called ‘tongues’ in Acts 2:11.)

    What the Charismatics do is nothing supernatural. I pray that you both will be able to see this. Maybe you would have to eventually give up the church, denomination, and people you have gotten close too? But we are to put nothing before God.
    Again, hopefully you both will see the truth about it.

    1. Victoria,

      Your comment: What the Charismatics do is nothing supernatural. I pray that you both will be able to see this. Maybe you would have to eventually give up the church, denomination, and people you have gotten close too?

      My Comment: Maybe you should give up the church you go to? I’ve seen the truth. And twice have given you a more detailed explanation on how you took the (1 CORINTHIANS 13:8) verse out of context.

      I will pray for you also. It really does blow my mind how you would think speaking in tongues is inactive.

      Please re-read my messages dated
      October 21, 2010 at 5:15 am
      and
      October 21, 2010 at 4:55 pm

      Now that it’s a new morning, a fresh set of eyes sometimes helps.

      God Bless.

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