The people of the book

Is God still with them?

zion2

People who preach replacement theology teach that God of the Bible has ended His special relationship with he Jewish people. Neither has the modern state of Israel any significance in His plans for the final judgment of the World. Nor will Israel and the Jewish people be in the center of the second coming of His Son.

They tell us that we should not pay to much attention to Israel. Our support of her is based on the same love we share for all nations. We will share our faith in Jesus with the Jewish people, just like with any other people on Earth. The earthly city of Jerusalem is of no importance to God, and can therefore be divided without implications in our relationship with God. We should rather focus on the heavenly Jerusalem, which is still unseen, not yet come down to us from Heaven.

Is this teaching Biblical, does it express the will of our Father in Heaven?

Unfortunately not, for those who live in such an terrible error.

God of the Bible is very concerned about Israel. He said that He would gather the Jewish people from all the nations He had scattered them, and bring them back to the land he promised their forefathers as an everlasting homeland. (Ezekiel 36:24). This promise was fulfilled in 1948. Whatever we may think about this, it does not have any impact on the character of God. He can be trusted. (Genesis 17:7-8). That the state of Israel has survived 60 years of constant hostility is by it self a miracle, and the best proof in our days, that there is a living God of Israel fighting for them.

The Zionist movement is colorful. Few of them understand that it is God who has gathered them, and will keep on gathering them home to Israel, to prepare the World for the most awesome moment ever. The return of the Messiah! First, He will come in the clouds of Heaven, and finally make a touch down in Jerusalem.

How do we know the Messiah will end up in Jerusalem?

In Acts 1:11 Two Angels tells the students of Jesus that their Lord shall come back in the same way as He left. He ascended into Heaven from the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:4 explains this return in details:
«On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

This valley is not there, this has not happened, not yet. «His feet» shall make a touch down. Paul explains that He shall come and kill the wicked one (or lawless one) who sits in the Temple of God claiming to be God. In the New Heavenly Jerusalem there is no need for a touch down, neither to form a new valley, nor will the wicked one have a seat in the Heavenly Jerusalem!!! But be sure. Also the New Heavenly Jerusalem shall come as promised. But first Jesus will pay the earthly Jerusalem a visit. This was the city were He died for our sins, and to the same city He will return to judge all nations.

In Luke 13:35 Jesus explains that the Jewish people shall be surprised that He who has come, is their saviour, their Messiah. They shall face Him in unbelief, and praise Him. In Luke 14:4 Jesus foretold that just before He returns, Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies. All nations will be gathered against Israel, and will be judged for going against the Word of God, who have taught us to bless Israel and help her. The prophet Joel warns us not to divided Zion, Israel, God´s land, and try to scatter the Jewish people. (Joel 3:2). Thats exactly what the UN and all nations are trying to force Israel to do in our generation.

Israel is not innocent, and shall face judgment for her sins and disobedience. But you have no right to judge her, and to go against her. She is not a treat to anyone, and long for peace, safety and security. If you have chosen Israel as your enemy, you have also chosen to fight the only true and living God of the Bible. Please do not do that.

Give your life to the Jewish Messiah. And chose to stand with Israel in all her troubles.

Did the Jews kill their own Messiah?

May 17, 2009

jesus-carries-the-cross

«if Jews didn’t kill Jesus, who did???» Certainly Romans drove the nails into his hands and feet, but the Jewish Sanhedrin sentenced him to death».

This was the best comment on this blog this week, and its illustrate one of the most important questions in the history of the human race. A lot is at stake here.

The «problem» with the death of Jesus, is that in the Court of Law, there has has to be a dead body before anybody can be accused of murder.

Since the Bible claims Jesus is alive, someone must have misunderstood.

Not only does the Bible claims that the Messiah is alive, tens of millions of people claims the same.

Jesus him self support those who claim that the Jewish people is innocent of this human accusation, that they are murders:

John 10:17-18:

«The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father».

Jesus Him self gave up His life. And He took it back, to be alive forever more. The grave was empty. The was no murder, there was no killer, and the supposed to be a victim is alive and kicking.

The human Court of Law, who have accused the Jewish people of «killing» their own Messiah, King Y´shua is the real criminals. They have even committed genocide in the name of peace and justice to prove their case.

In the Bible, such people are accused to be with the very anti-Jewish Messiah. In the Greek version of the Bible, such a person is labeled as an antichrist.

Jesus did not carry the cross because He wanted anyone to be blamed. He carried the cross to carry the sins of the World. He died on the cross in Jerusalem and rose again!, so we all could get a chance to change our ways, believe in Him and live.

I am one of His witnesses. The Jewish Messiah is alive, and He loves the Jewish people.

Back to the original question:

Who «killed» Jesus?

I did. It was my sins that drove Jesus to the cross. He gave up His life because He loved me.

You also are a sinner that needs to be saved by Him.

288 thoughts on “The people of the book

  1. First off you have a good blog (aside from a few errors) and I know you mean well, but I get so tired of hearing things like this.

    We (the Jews) didn’t kill our messiah. Our messiah isn’t here yet, or at least isn’t known yet. We did have a hand in having a person who might have been your J.C. executed. The Talmud speaks of this. But this person was NOT our (the Jewish) messiah. He might have been a good person. He might have been a very observant Jew but he was not our messiah.

    Our messiah will bring world peace, right after J.C. the Romans sacked Jerusalem along with destroying a variety of other places. When our messiah comes all the Jews will come home. Shorting after J.C. almost all Jews were dispersed out of Israel. I could go on. You see not only did J.C. not do any thing our messiah will do. In many cases the opposite happened.

    I know your response, ‘he is coming again’ then he will do all that. That may work great for you but for a Jew it is all point less. Everything J.C. claims to give, a relationship with G_d, forgiveness of sin etc., we already have. Why would the messiah come do nothing and then claim he will come back to do all the stuff the Torah says he will do. There is no place in Torah where it speaks of the messiah ‘coming twice’. And J.C. didn’t do anything the Torah says the messiah will do.

    If a belief in J.C. works for you great, but don’t assume him on us. And when the Jewish Messiah does finally come I will not assume him on you. I will not have to, world peace is a pretty hard thing to miss.

    • Dear Mocha Man.

      Shalom.

      Thanks for a positive and very reflective comment.

      I am not going to argue with you. After 2000 year, people still disagree on who the Messiah is. I feel both of us can agree to disagree on this issue.

      I am sure, you agree that the God of Israel, is not only the God of Israel.

      He loves his creation, and He surely promised He would bless the human race using his chosen people, the Jews. The sons and daughters of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:

      Genesis 22:18
      «and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me».

      Not being Jewish, I have been grafted into the Jewish faith. My moral laws, and all my blessings have come out of Israel and the Jewish people.

      How did that happen?

      If not the Jewish Messiah, Who told me to love Israel, and to bless the Jewish people?

      If the Messiah has not yet come, how could a man like me be saved?

      If man only can be saved by observing the Torah, billions of people have waited for the blessings of the God of Israel in vain.

      Thanks for returning the blessings, by reading my blog.

      Be aware of a false peace that is coming. The people who hates Jews, will flock to the man of wickedness, a lawless fellow that soon will come to Jerusalem. Islam, the Pope of Rome and United Nations all together. When the Jews have been forced into this false peace, they will again try to genocide the Jewish people. They will not be able to do so. Amen.

      • absolutely excellent response.

        there are plenty of references in the old testament to the Christian history. who will “look upon Him, who they pierced, and weep as if for a firstborn son”.

        to the OP- no you do not have NATIONAL FORGIVENESS, the whole sacrificial system was destroyed 2000 years ago. God will not be mocked! the terms of the CONDITONAL mosaic covenant were broken, and so the consequences- alienation dispersion and loss of blessings are felt. the veil of the Temple was TORN in HALF when the Crucifixion, and this earthquake is recorded in the Talmud; the darkness that covered the earth at that time was noted by wide and varied contemporary sources. Never again did the temple in Jerusalem function or the Sanhendrin sit there; notably it was an exact 40 years later, that the temple itself was destroyed.

        since Israel and Judah sinned against the covenant they were cast out and disowned, so the Messiah is how the UNCONDITIONAL covenants are honored, and in fact all mankind saved from Adam’s fall. Jesus was the 2nd adam is the theological point. and yes, in Scripture there is reference to the Messiah who comes first as a lamb, and then as a LION!

      • Dear Judah.

        Shalom.

        That Jesus told us to obey the Torah, needs to be explained further. He told us that He would fulfill the Torah. In fact take’s the blames and punishment for us not being able to obey the Torah.

        Shall we than disobey the Torah?

        Not at all. The Torah was given to make us aware of sin, and the instruction’s of God. When we follow them, we surely get a better life.

        But, no one is able to become righteous by obeying the Law. The death and resurrection of Jesus is out only righteousness. The Messiah is our righteousness.

    • There is a wonderful book by Edith Schaeffer, entitled, “Christianity is Jewish.” It may be hard to find except where second hand books are sold, such as Amazon. It would bless so many Christians and Jewish people alike if only they would take the time to read it. Anyone who is truly seeking truth would be blessed by this beautifully written book. Please consider finding a copy and let its simple, yet profound message speak to your heart. Be Blessed ….

      • Dear Leah.

        I thank Him, who gave you a new heart. He is the Jewish Messiah who came and saved a wreck like me. Both Jew and gentile are one people in Him.

    • Hi,

      I am happy to see this site where christians and jews are discussing.

      I was going through discussion between MochaMan & ivarfjeld, and all of a sudden Levi coming into picture.

      Just to introduce myself,
      *** I am a strong believer of the Bible
      *** Believes JESUS CHRIST is the Son of GOD
      *** Believing that the GOD of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob .. Israel is the Same yesterday, today and for evermore.
      *** Also strong believer of this verse of JESUS CHRIST in Matt 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.”
      *** Whenever I donot get answers for something from the bible, I consider that Dueteronomy 29:29 is the answer and wait patiently for the same with prayers.

      Just to answer only one point of MochaMan reply on June 4th 2009 “There is no place in Torah where it speaks of the messiah ‘coming twice'”.

      Yes you are right there is no direct verse which gives you the connection about Messiah coming twice.

      It is similar to the shadow of what happened in the past, See entire Israel believed what their forefathers had told them about the verse in Gensis 15:12-21( even before Isaac was born). But GOD of Abraham used a person at his eighties to redeem them from slavery. Even though in his fourties , if some people would have thought that he is the messiah, they would have been filled with unbelief( I am talking about common people here, people who believed GOD would have really known who moses was and would have waited) when he ran away into the wilderness. Secondly you see here GOD did not use armies, He used two ordinary servants of the Most Holy, Moses and Aron. Think of the common man’s perspective here, He would be thinking their messiah is a super hero who would deliver them with great armies.

      Now coming to shadow, in the wilderness, GOD commanded moses to lift up a serpent(Numbers 21:9), That is the shadow of what was going to happen in the future. [to be precise and clear what I meant here is John 3:16 in the new testament]

      Just look at this place where Moses talks about a prophet(Dueteronomy 18:15-22), now how will you identify him unless that person dying and coming back to life.

      Have you ever noticed this part in Daniel 9:24-27, where it says “Messiah shall be cut off,….”[ What does it mean, dont answer me, answer to your conscience?]

      Have you noticed what Psalms 2nd Chapter and 110th Chapter talks about,[ Who is this anointed one?, Why does GOD say to him to “sit at HIS right hand”?]

      Brother, It is not an argument which one needs to win. If you are thinking about winning an argument, I consider already you are the winner, but if you are searching for the truth, then you need not even answer me, answer to your conscience with questions what these christians are putting, Because GOD is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. HE will certainly answer according to what is told in [Joel 2:28-32].

      I believe this and you also believe this I think, “Let us Love the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY [ The GOD of Abraham, Isaac…..Israel, The GOD Who created the Heavens and Earth ] with all our heart, mind , soul and body[Only HIM and HIM Only]. And secondly Let us love one another as GOD loves us(as a christian I believe as JESUS and GOD the FATHER loves me)”. There is nothing hidden to HIM, HE who created Galaxies and Galaxies, what is man in front of him. If HE wills HE can give us that supreme wisdom to understand and break open parables, sealed scriptures, undocumented scriptures and mysteries.

      Let LORD GOD ALMIGHTY Bless Isreal Abundantly, Because it has given us the WORD, TRUTH, LIGHT, WAY and also our FIRSTBORN out of it.

      • Dear Zuriel.

        Shalom, and welcome to this site.

        There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus speaks about His return. He is surely coming back.

        John 14:1-3

        “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

        John 14:28-29

        “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.

        Acts 1:11
        “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

      • Dear Ivarfjeld,

        Shalom and Praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

        Thanks for your wonderful verses from the new testament, I believe them.

        I thought it is good to show only the old testament for the Old Testament believer. Actually speaking if an Old Testament believer reads especially the book of Hebrews from the new testament. There are lot of things they can understand and know.

        [All the letters of paul and every word from The Holy Bible is inspired by THE HOLY SPIRIT.(2Ti 3:16)]

      • Dear Zuriel

        Shalom.

        Even in the Old Testament, the Lord promised to dwell in Israel, leave Israel, and return to Israel. That is exactly what the Messiah Jesus did, Has done, and will do.

        Isaiah 52:8
        Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices; together they shout for joy. When the LORD returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes.

        Zechariah 1:3
        Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty.

        Zechariah 1:16
        “Therefore, this is what the LORD says: ‘I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem,’ declares the LORD Almighty.

        Zechariah 8:3
        This is what the LORD says: “I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD Almighty will be called the Holy Mountain.

    • Who are you calling jews. The Jews of today or the Hebrew-Israelites of the bible. Remember J as not in the Hebrew, Greek or Latin. The letter j was added in 1637 to the english alphabet. so the Hebrew never call there self Jews or fellow the religion Judaism. It was The way or the way of Yah or Yah’s way. Ok let’s use the letter J.
      When Yah the Most High gave the laws to Moses (Moshe) on Mt. Sinai, he never once mention anything about Judaism. Judaism is not of Yah, it is the creation of men
      One of the facts scripture gives us about Israel (Ysrayl), is in regard to their physical appearance. Throughout scripture Israel is described as physically looking like the sons of Ham (Khawm), in appearance not white .

      Edited, and shortened. (Editor).

      • Dear Alsteele.

        Shalom, and thanks for this comment. Please write short messages.

        Your wrote:

        Judaism is not of Yah, it is the creation of men.

        My comment:

        This is a Linguistic statement of faith, that makes you a member of a sect. The Word of God explains who are Jewish, and who are not. He did not take out of Egypt, only people who could spell correctly. Neither has He gathered home to Israel, the wrong people, who only pretend to be “Jewish”. This is a satanic view, shared by the Neo-Nazis and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran.

    • To our beloved Yehudin fellow, I will reply in double steps. First J.C. as you write has never been there! This J.C is the christian Anti-Messiah antinomian speaking against the Torah bringing christians into destruction because they don’t love the truth. In opposition Yeshua Son of Yoseph has been there, he was the prophet spoken by Moshe (D’varim 18:15-18)and came to restore the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Ephraïm). He never came to abolish the Torah but to make it plain (Matt.5:17-20, Luke:24:45). He came is own brethren (Yehudin)but the rejected him, only those called follow him (Talmidin, Apostles. Later some from among the nations joined them (Acts 15). Yeshua NEVER came to build a “church” but to RESTORE the House of Ya’acov (12 tribes) (Luke 1:30-33). He was the Lamb of El dying for Israel and for those in the world who will join Israel in the Torah. yeshua will come a second time to eradicate once for all sin for the elects and bring peace in the all world. The Torah will once again flow from Yerushalayim and people will come to celebrate the Chag (feas) at their moed time. This understanding is Torah based and unfolded in the “sod” of the Parasha Yoseph in the book of b’reshit. Shalom and blessing to all Yehudin who will turn to the truth and to HaMoschiach Yeshua!

    • “they will look upon Him whom they pierced, and weep as if for a Firstborn Son…” Zechariah 18

      in case you missed the last 2000 years, apparently this person Yashua has made a fundamental impact… can you imagine the last 2 millenia without Christianity in all its forms and ways? it’s not some random high school competition between “yours” and “mine”, as though transcending history was just a matter of sports affiliations, or local gurus.

      be careful- before the messiah of world peace will be the false one, who will fool many- especially those who style themselves ‘wise’.

      and as a Jew you should know that the national covenant, the Mosaic covenant was broken, it was conditional and both Israel and Judah are now under it’s curse… so from whence comes redemption? is there’ a sacrifice and levites to take away the sins of the people? wasnt the temple destroyed in the year 70 c.e.? doesnt the talmud itself record that an earthquake rocked jerusalem around the year 30, that the Sanhendrin moved from the temple and never convened there again? God made specific promises to His people and these included consequences for national disobedience…

      why were there 12 apostles? why did jesus say “go only to the lost sheep of israel”? why did these 12 apostles, as recorded in many sources and traditions, go directly without delay to CERTAIN, SPECIFIC peoples… Saxons, Goths, Celts, Britons etc, “first to the Jews, and then to the Gentiles…”

      yes there is a place, more than one, in the Torah that speaks of 2 comings- “first as a lamb, then as a lion”… specifically i think it was Moses who prophesied in Deuteronomy (d’avarim)

    • Ivar, you may not argue with MochaMan, but I will.

      The Torah teaches the Messiah will come before the 2nd temple of Israel is destroyed. The 2nd Temple was destroyed 3,000 years ago…where is your Messiah?

      Also, it is taught from the Torah and Talmud that you must have a BLOOD sacrifice to cover your sins…this sacrifice must be laid out on the alter of the temple. Umm, there is no Temple and you surely don’t sacrifice animals to cover your sins.

      Furthermore…if you are a practicing pious Jew, explain to me Isaiah 53. Read it and let me know.

      Yeshua (Jesus) is your Messiah…whether you accept Him or not. When you pray to God, Messiah is sitting on His right. I pray for you and my Jewish brothers and sisters that they might open their hearts and ears to the Lord God of Abraham.

    • I hope you realize that even in the Torah it speaks of Jesus coming to his own and His own Not receiving Him!

      Even in the Torah it speaks of a time between Jesus first and second Advent. It speaks of Him being REJECTED and Dispised. BUt that also this happened so that the Good News could be Preached to the Gentiles. It has Always been in Gods plan to Include the Infidels/Gentiles nations.

      You say that Jesus did the Opposite of things your messiah is supposed to do.

      So, Let me take your message and make sense of everything you just said. I will post another reply

    • mochaman in just one point your logic is wiped away.how do you have forgiveness of sin,if you have no temple,for without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.where is the blood for your sin.

      • Gene, I haven’t responded to this page in multiple years, nor am I mochaman, but your post was short and I feel like procrastinating on my schoolwork. The idea of needing blood for forgiveness is a completely Christian idea; the idea was likely derived out of the Temple’s sacrificial offerings, but it is certainly not the other way around.

        To say the man’s logic is wiped away by your pseudo-proof is absurd; For disproving things, I would recommend a course on group theory. To answer your question with a question: How do you have freedom? Where is the saliva for your freedom?

    • I truly beleive that any Jewish person who practices their relegion shoule read Isiah 53 in their own book of God’s Word. Then answer the question of Messiah.

    • Many people throughout history have died for what they believed in, even though that belief was was false. Like during WWII, all those Japanese soldiers who died for an emperor who claimed to be the son of heaven.

      But nobody is dumb enough to die for something they know to be false. Nearly all of Jesus Christ’s disciples died torturous deaths because they insisted he had died on the cross and rose again.

      They were there. They saw it all. Do you really think they would have made those claims if they had seen with their own eyes that it didn’t happen?

      It’s not about blind faith MochaMan. God old logic supports this truth.

    • Very good smarten up these dumb Christians who don’t realize in their belief the Old Testament was replaced with the New Testament.

      • Dear George Ferenzi

        Shalom, and love in Jesus.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        Very good smarten up these dumb Christians who don’t realize in their belief the Old Testament was replaced with the New Testament.

        My comment:

        This Messiah of yours, seems to be a confused fellow. Who walked on Earth with the Old Testament scrolls in his hands, only to scrap the Scripture that testifies about His coming. Deleting all promises He him self has given as eternal God, even the Prophetic words about His second coming.

        If the Old Testament has been replaced, so has the 10 commandments. Now we can all lie, cheat, fornicate, worship idols, not rest on the Sabbath, and dishonor our father and mother.

      • Sorry, George, that your New Testament isn’t dominated by Old Testament references, as that means it is not genuine.

        Consider the Old Testament references that our Redeemer (Yeshyahua ben Yoseph) used when responding to Satan’s temptations in the wilderness:

        http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204:1-11&version=KJV

        Carefully read this description, identify who is speaking and to whom they are referring, considering what it implies for your belief in a deity copied from Chaldean Mithraism by Constantine when he was setting up a business branch for his empire in about 300AD:

        http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%208:22-&version=KJV

    • You are somehow contradictory.
      Do you need a Messiah or you don’t?
      You are simply in self denial, try to search inside your heart, the truth is in there, you are only denying it.
      Try to base your argument on factual evidence, not simple denial.
      Your problem is that you expected an earthly Messiah and yet JESUS THE CHRIST was not be so. What do the scriptures say about the destiny of the Earth after man sinned in the garden of Eden? JESUS THE CHRIST is here to put right all that went wrong.
      You see, it is for your own good, the earlier the better.

    • Shalom, MochaMan:

      Bless Ha Shem for preserving a remnant of the Chosen and maintaining His promises to the fathers of the Faithful for His own Name sake!

      MochaMan, you stated that Torah does not expect the Messiah to come twice, yet Hosea focuses on the concept of “returning” and declared that the Lord would do this:

      [Hsa 5:15 ESV] 15 I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.

      The Chosen will earnestly seek Him when the Man of Sin stops the sacrifice that will be resumed in the Third Temple and becomes bent on the ruin of the Beloved People.

      But the Levitical priesthood is never spoken of as having the ability to TAKE AWAY sin. However, it was effective for the atonement and temporal forgiveness of imperfection so that the clean person could approach the Presence and not die. This methodology will resume during the Reign of Messiah ben David – who is the self same person as Messiah ben Yosef, the Suffering Servant. He, being of the Tribe of Judah was able to TAKE AWAY all sins because he is of a different order than the line of Aaron, being of the order of Melchizedek — having made a once-and-for-all sacrifice of the Perfect Life in Heaven after the Ascension. Thus, Messiah ben Yosef has not “done nothing”.

      [Hsa 14:2, 7 ESV] 2 Take with you words and return to the LORD; say to him, “Take away all iniquity; accept what is good, and we will pay with bulls the vows of our lips. … 7 They shall return and dwell beneath my shadow; they shall flourish like the grain; they shall blossom like the vine; their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon.

      That Levitical priesthood will resume, but with at least one significant alteration according to Isaiah — that being the inclusion of Gentiles who have attached their lives to the Chosen People:

      [Isa 66:18-21 ESV] 18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, 19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. 21 And some of them also I WILL TAKE FOR PRIESTS AND FOR LEVITES, says the LORD.

      Messiah has “returned” to His place and beckons the Beloved to return also to Him – bereft, as for an only son.

      [Hsa 6:2 ESV] 2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.

      The “two days” is very near its completion. He who said: “I will return again to my place, UNTIL they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me” will keep this promise also. The Holy Spirit is sent to remain on all those who join the fathers of the Faithful in hope of the seed of the woman — Yeshua: the Salvation of G-d.

      Bless you, MochaMan, and ALL the Chosen – that you would be willing to consider the full panoply of the Tanach – its implications and subsequent requirements. The G-d who brought Israel through the sea and the wilderness is able to bring all of you to His provision in the Messiah who has come, returned, and will come again to a bereft People.

      Please consider reading the Book to the Hebrews which explains so many of these issues:

      http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Hbr&c=1&t=ESV

  2. You asked many good questions.  I will try and answer all of them, as I have time, but I would like to focus on just one for now.  There are many places where Christianity and Judaism agree.  That is to say there are places where modern Christianity still agrees with it’s Jewish roots.  Then there are other places, like the following, where Christianity seems to have gone 180 degrees away from it’s Jewish roots.  You asked “If man only can be saved by observing the Torah, billions of people have waited for the blessings of the God of Israel in vain.”.  There are several issues here. I will try to address each of them.

    1.  The need to follow Torah is only incumbent on Jews.  Non-Jews are welcome to study Torah and try to follow (the parts they are allowed to follow), but it is not required of a non-Jew.  Jewish tradition says there are 613 Mitzvos (laws) in the Torah.  The Jewish people are commanded to keep all of these laws.  Non-Jews are not required to keep the Torah. It wouldn’t be fair for G_D to expect the non-Jews, who have never heard the Torah, to keep the Torah .  The Torah tells us that non-Jews are required to keep seven laws(go here for some details http://www.aish.com/wallcam/7_noachide_laws.asp).  These are simple laws that anyone can understand and follow.  No non-Jew, according to the Torah, will ever go to hell  for not following a law they never knew.

    2.  The Christian idea of needing to be saved is an odd one, and I often fine people assuming this concept into Judaism. Christianity teaches that (I will paraphrase but I am sure you know the text), ‘wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many fall in but narrow is the gate that leads to life and few find it’. According to other Christians I have spoke with this is saying that most people will go to hell unless they profess faith in J.C. And hell, we are told is basically an eternal torture chamber. This whole idea is TOTALLY contrary to Jewish teaching and what the Torah says. The Torah teaches that G_D is loving and loves everyone. Judaism says that everyone is born destined for heaven. There is no hell in Judaism but there is a consequence for a person’s sins. I heard one rabbi compare it to a druggie going through rehab. The process rips the person apart, but in the end they are clean. But this heavenly rehab doesn’t last forever and when it is over the person is allowed in heaven. So you see there is no idea of needing to save people in Judaism because there is no hell to be saved from. When a Jew says G_D is love he doesn’t mean just for a select few who happened to have a preacher on their block, they mean for everyone.

    3. Torah is not a means to an end; to get to heaven. It is an end in itself. This is another one of those places where Christianity and Judaism are 180 degrees apart. It seems most Christians I talk to are focused on the after life; I guess because of their teaching that everyone who doesn’t believe in J.C. will go to hell. Jews and Judaism, on the other hand, are focused on the here and now.

    We follow Torah because G_D told us to. We follow Torah because it will lead us to a better life (here and now). We follow Torah because we love G_D and wish to obey Him. We follow Torah to gain wisdom. But mostly, we follow Torah because our great great great…grand parents stood at mount Sinai and said, “We will do and we will listen.” Torah is a treasure, it is the greatest gift G_D has ever, and will ever, give to man. We don’t follow Torah to get to heaven; we have already been given heaven.

    In closing let me throw your question back to you. If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in J.C., then billions of people have believed in G_D in vain. Jews believe that most of those billions of people have a place in the world to come (in heaven). Some may have a better place than others but most of them will get there. By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?

    • it may well be that this rabbinical understanding of heaven and hell is replicated in the final judgement of revelations. although i would think that even the rabbinical idea admits that some will NOT be saved, and cast into the fire, to be destroyed, forever. Jashua said “fear the 2nd death”. this is exactly what pharisees taught. “christianity” is a direct outgrowth of “judaism”. Jashua said to keep Torah. He said that when it comes to matters of Law, the Pharisees (rabbinical Jews) sit in the seat of Moses, to do everything they say in matters of law.

      however judaism doesnt keep torah very well btw- a lot of man-made interpolation, like other religions. and what really counts, in the end, is love and mercy and charity, faith courage and hope.

  3. Dear Mocha Man.

    Shalom.

    I am honored by your comment. Let me try my best to answer some of your questions:

    First a comment to your comment about hell:

    «So you see there is no idea of needing to save people in Judaism because there is no hell to be saved from».

    My comment:

    If it had been easy to explain Hell, nobody would have doubted there is one. But the God of the Bible is expressing very sternly, that only He holds the key to the entry and exit of our life.

    In the Tanakh he explains:

    Genesis 6:17
    I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

    What happened to them, when God destroyed them? Where did all this people go?

    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

    Life and prosperity and death and destruction, only in this life? King David asked:
    – Why do the wicked prosper, and the righteous are denied justice?

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

    If we can chose, who leads us into a denial of this choice?

    Deuteronomy 32:39
    “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

    God tells us, that no one can deliver out of his hand. Who is the enemy, since obviously some people will be destroyed?

    King David tells us that the grave is not our final destination.

    Psalm 16:10
    because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.

    Who is the «Holy One» in the first place?

    Since you dont believe there is a hell to escape, what is the purpose of the coming of the Messiah?

    If the Torah could lead the Jewish people into a better life, why were the Jews exiled into all the nations of the World, and the temple in Jerusalem destroyed?

    Since the Messiah did not come during 2000 year of Jewish exile, why should he come today when the people of Israel is back home?

    If Y´shua is the Messiah, all this questions can be answered. He came to save us from sins and eternal destruction, but was rejected by many. He will come again, and save Israel. He first came as the perfect Passover lamb, the perfect atonement for sins. This time He will come as the lion of Judah. The judge. Only repented sinners will be saved.

    Your comment:

    In closing let me throw your question back to you. If the only way to go to heaven is to believe in J.C., then billions of people have believed in G_D in vain.

    My comment:

    A Holy God can not be approached by sinners. Even in Old Israel, only the High Priest could stand in His presence, in the Inner room of the Temple once a year.
    Since life and death is in he hand of God, He will also provide for us the solution.

    The promised Jewish Messiah is the solution, that has blessed the World. Not only Israel. Man have surely disagreed on who He is, was and will be.

    Your question:

    By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?

    My answer:

    I am a servant of the Jewish Messiah, who came to Earth to save the World. The Jewish Messiah died for the sins of atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and Christians alike. Since the God of Israel is concerned about his creation, also I better be.

  4. I enjoy debate and discussion. I assume you do to or you wouldn’t have this blog, or be responding to my thoughts. On the other hand, one thing I have often seen Christians do that I find very frustrating, is constantly throw a bunch of questions at those that disagree with them; such as you just did. It is as if they feel they can persuade via pure volume of text and questions even if the commentary is weak or nonexistent.

    At the top of your last post you said, “Let me try my best to answer some of your questions,” and then you proceeded to preach. At the end of your post you referenced my ONE question, but you did not answer it. You told me you believe in J.C., which I already assumed. You told me some basic Christian beliefs, which I already knew. You did not answer the question. If we are going to have a conversation, I would like direct answers to questions. I have done that for you. I answered one of your original questions, and said I would try to answer the rest as I have time. When I ask you a question, I would like the same courtesy.

    My question:
    By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?

    PS The simple answer to almost all the questions in your last post is perspective. You read the Christian text, which focuses on the after life, death, punishment, hell etc.. This is your primary focus and where most of your theology comes from. Then you read Torah from that perspective. Because of that, when a passage in Torah talks about reward and punishment you perceive it to be referring to the after life, regardless of the context. Since for Jews our primary focus is Torah, we have no perspective shift. I am sure this answer will bring up many questions, but please one at a time. That way we can consider what each other has to say and grow.

    • Shalom,

      I love your blog and I’m glad too see that the jewish people have their brothers all around the world. Even Norway such small country.

      The jews are Go’d chosen people! They are superior, and Gd will ONLY accept the jew when messias return. Jesus is not mesias, nor GD. We are the choosen people and nomatter what happen we will always be superior in this world and the hearafter.Look how GD helped us, now we have one of the worlds most superior countries. USA is succesful because of us jews and also Israel. The land of the Israelites will reach from Irak to Egypt as GD promised us. Arabs and other junk will never be equal too us. Christians know that without supporting the children of israel they are doomed, but their jesus will never help them and mohumad will never help the muslims.GD is with the chosen people

      • Dear Levi.

        Shalom, and welcome to this site.

        Yes, Norway and Israel. Two small countries.

        The Jews are God`s chosen people. But not because they are supreme, or more loved than others. But because they are chosen. Chosen for what? To bring to mankind the knowledge who God is! And the final revelation is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.

        The restoration of Israel and its miraculous survival has very little to do with a claimed «superiority» of the Jewish people. Lets see what the Prophetic word is saying:

        Ezekiel 36:32
        I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

        I guess this Bible verse tells us who is supreme, and who is not. The weakness of a sinful and disobedient Israel loved by God, is also an important revelation of the unlimited mercy and grace God of Israel has shown His people.

      • Keep talking…talk like that has always gotten your people killed!! And yes, up until now others come and save you!! Sadly, the good ones perish and the world has chest thumpers like you left!YOU ARE PATHETIC LEACHES THAT USE OTHERS THEN PROCLAIM FALSE GREATNESS! The next time God punishes you all for your false superiority will finally be the end of ALL OF YOU! God is great!! JEWS are pathetic complainers that have never helped anyone without greedily taken a bite! The time will come and the punishment will be handed down by God! And there will be no evil jews left to weep for their fellow evil jew! No jews no more whining!! Just good happy respectful human beings left to honor their God! Not pathetic cowards who cause others to WAR for the jews true gods are MONEY<SEX AND POWER!! (think back to Moses) Or Noah etc, etc one prophet after another yet no positive reaction! Sorry, but your history is not one to be proud off! Show some shame for you have sinned against your GOD!! Stop blaming us for you false arrogance. YOU WILL DIE!! AND EVIL WILL PERISH!! God is GREAT!! We are all at His mercy!! Where is the shame in that?! PATHETIC!! Just as the pigs in the ghetto where proud!! So proud they refused to protect their own children!! YES YOU SHOULD BE VERY PROUD! Selling you own into prostitution and mayhem! BEST FOLLOW ALL THE COMMANDMENTS GIVEN TO ALL WHO WILL LISTEN FROM MOSES! Once the Christians wake up and are willing to die instead of fighting as Jesus asked..then you are left with the weak pathetic jew against the rest of the world! Good luck bragging!! PRAY FOR the souls of the good and refrain from your arrogant false claims!! WE HELPED YOU!! YOU ARE NOT SO GRATEFUL! YOU WILL DIE AGAIN!! Isn't that closer to the truth!! YOUR COUNTRY WOULD FALL WITHOUT THE GREAT POWER OF THE USA!! You brought us financial and moral collapse..homosexuals dancing in the streets and money being chased as if it where a god!! Sounds familiar.the fatted golden calf that Moses was forced to look upon after receiving the commandments from God!.look around the jews have done this since the very beginning of their existence! They say it themselves in the holy book that they read but never really understand!! YOU not only piss off humans you are so arrogant you piss off God himself! What a narcissistic race! No humility! I purposely put a lower case when I use the word jew as I in no way equate what I am speaking about towards the true Jew..the follower of the Commandments and the one God that is the beginning and the end! For they are Holy and unfortunately few!! By the looks of these comments and articles God has already closed the door to heaven! It is surely filled to capacity from all the good souls that have died to support all of us who live here on Earth in such pathetic disdain to the memories of the heroes! All the good Christians and Jews surely have died in the name of God! Are any of us left even worth saving? How's that for a question? So, maybe it's Not who is the best race but more like who cares? I do know that I won't be in any ghetto hiding like a coward only to pretend later I am a lion after someone comes to save my ass!! I will die defending my God..not holding on to my worthless cash or false bravado! You only die once…but jews live in the hell of their own history!! Too bad they are too blind to understand their own God! Trust me He will keep pounding you until you do!! And we should never feel pity for the souls that God takes for His justice is fair! Beg Him for forgivness for we are not worthy! Follow His law for it is just and caring!! Maybe then the world will be at peace!! How much simpler can God make it for us! He is great we are not worthy! Shove your arrogance up your you know what or God will either do it for you or perhaps send someone to do it for Him! Not sure you get His message!! Will you jews ever? That's the real question!

    • Finally! A true scholar! Let me say I am a Christian and I say the Bible does not teach of a hell to be saved from. The Jewish position based on Old Testament theology does not contain the classic Greek/Roman concepts of hell. So Amen to MochaMan! You are closer to the kingdom than you even know! Shalom

  5. Dear Mocha Man.

    Shabbat Shalom.

    Thanks again for a good reply, and you are absolutely right, I asked you a lot of questions.

    First, and very important. I am not a «Christian». I am a follower of the Jewish Messiah.

    Whats the difference?

    Well, the Western Roman «Church» did disconnect it self from its Jewish roots. I have found peace and salvation is a Jew, that never could have attended the Church of Rome. A Jew that preached against Idol worship in form of any image and statues. a Jew that claimed that the Father and Son are One. Here O Israel. Your God is One.

    What does the Jewish faith mean for my daily life?

    Well, I agree with you that faith has to have an impact on every day life. Reading the Torah, I know that my God have the best intention for me, and that following his moral code is for the best. I will be able to improve my living condition, and become a blessing for the people around me.

    But the Torah does not disconnect me from the need of meeting my God with a circumcised heart. The God of the Bible says that everyone needs to get their heart circumcised.

    Thats what happened to me. Being a gentile, I could not become a Jew. Being born a gentile, circumcision in the flesh is neither mandatory, nor is it required for my salvation. But without a circumcised heart, no prayer of man or women in Israel or anywhere else will be heard by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Your God has answered my prayers, and I walk in life free from condemnation. I can do this because I have been set free from my guilt of constantly sinning against him, breaking his laws, not being able to do all that the law requires. The Law is perfect and good. I am not.

    Yes, my life is full of joy. Yes, my life is full of hope. Hope in the Messiah. God of Israel promised that your people would become a blessing to the whole World. He did keep His promise. He keeps all His promises. He gave the World a perfect Jew. The God of Israel gave His Only begotten Son.

    Your Bible does not require a Jews to become a «Christian». Y´shua did not read from the New Testament in the Synagogues. He read from the Tanakh and the Torah. Y´shua celebrated the Sabbath and all the Jewish festivals. You should do the same to honor Him. Y´shua takes pleasure in every Jew and gentile who approach Him with a circumzised heart.

    Just try it.

    The Jewish Apostle Paul explains this to us so beautifully. «The Law is good, and if you want to live under the Law, you will be judge by the Law. But now when the new covenant of grace is a free gift from God, I can promise you a much more joyful life by just live by faith in the Messiah, Y´shua from Nazareth».

    Does He requires a lot from us? Absolutely.

    We have to obey Him, try our best to live by the Law, be honest about our shortcomings, and even love our enemies.

    Do I believe you can have a good life living by the law of the Torah? Yes. Do I believe this Torah observing life is complicated, and sometimes very frustrating? Yes. Do I believe you can be saved by observing the Torah? No.

    Why?

    Because the Law have never saved anyone. God of Israel saves. Not the written code. After His death and resurrection Y´shua is the only one who can save us. The Jewish Apostles told us, that there is no longer any other name that God has given us, that man can be saved. The Jewish Messiah Y´shua has surely saved many Torah observing Jews, and will continue to do so. Since a gentile like me does not deserve to be saved by Him, neither do you!

    If Y´shua is not the Jewish Messiah, He is neither the savior of the World. My faith is worthless.

  6. Wow, where to begin.

    First off I have talked to many people like you before. Yes I am making some assumptions but from what you have said and the tone of what you have said, I am fairly sure I am on the right track. Most likely you started out in a traditional church and some where got involved in something you consider not “Western Roman «Church»”. This means you are one of two types of people. You might be some one who is searching for the truth. You noticed some of the inconsistencies in the church you were going to and decided to look for something more true. Or you might be someone who got upset or bored with their current church and decided to try out a non “Western Roman «Church»”, just for something different. If you are of the first kind we may have things to learn from each other. If you are of the second kind you will just keep preaching at me, because you are not seeking and don’t have anything new to say.

    Which are you?

    Secondly I have talked to people who come from non “Western Roman «Church»”. They use to call themselves messianic (maybe you people are using a different name now). I know compared to traditional modern Christianity you feel you are a lot different and think of your self as Jewish in some way. Maybe from your perspective you are correct. But from a Jewish perspective you are more or less the same as a Christian. Look at all that you have said in all of your posts. Your focus is on ‘saving’ people. That is a Christian concept. Sure Jews want to see people, Jew and non-Jew, improve their lives, but there is NO concept of saving people in Judaism. Again look at your posts you are all focused on the after life. Judaism is focused on the here and now. If you have a copy of the Torah, I assume you do, read it. The focus in Torah is on the here and now. The laws in the Torah are about how to live our lives, not getting to heaven. Your focus is Christian, not Jewish.

    I have now asked you twice to answer one simple question. Let me explain why, I think, you continue refuse to answer my question.

    My question:
    By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?

    Why you can not answer it:
    The simple answer is because the obvious answer to my question is that the people are far better served by Judaism than Christianity. Of course you can not admit that, so you ignore the question. But it really goes much deeper than that, and deep down you may realize that. Christianity makes many many incorrect assumptions about Judaism. It is only by those incorrect assumptions that Christianity can stand. If G_D, as HE has, only asks the non-Jew to obey 7 simple laws to get to heaven then there is no need for Christianity. Most people have obeyed those laws without even trying or knowing them. If there is no hell, then there is no need to be ‘saved’ from hell. I could go on but I think I have made my point.

    Now I must ask you, and please take some time to consider this, which is more important to you: your theology or the truth. If your theology is your g_d then our conversation will never go anywhere, because you will never be willing to consider anything I say. If you are the first type I mentioned above. If you are seeking to find the truth, then I ask you to read your copy of the Torah, but read it itself. Don’t assume this or that because the Christian text says this or that, let it speak for itself. I don’t know which one but I know in one of the books of the Christian text Paul says that he went from town to town preaching the teaching of Christianity from TORAH. Remember at this time there was NO Christian text. If Christianity is true, if you are truly seeking the truth do this. Try to totally for get about the teaching of Christianity and just read Torah. Let it speak on its own and see what you find. If Paul is right and if Christianity is true you should be able to easily prove all of the Christian teachings from Torah with NO reference to the Christian text. Or you might find that the G_D of the Torah is Loving, much more loving than anything you had ever been told, that HE is forgiving much more forgiving than you had been told. You might just find that Judaism is not what you thought it was but a LOT more.

    • Dear Mocha Man.

      Shalom.

      I told you from the beginning, that I dont want to argue with you. No one have been able to convince anybody in regards to faith. If there was a sure answer, man would not have been called to live by faith.

      Your question:
      «By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?»

      First of all, you dont believe that there is a Hell, and that people have anything to get saved from. How can the question your ask about an irrelevant condition become relevant to you?

      Well, the only way I can answer, is to quote from the Jewish scripture, from the Jewish prophet Daniel:

      Daniel 7:27

      «Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him».’

      I guess this ruler has not yet been found in Judaism. An everlasting Kingdom, whom all rulers will worship. Since God allowed the Temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed in 70.A.D, and the Jews to be exiled for 2000 years, God of Judaism must have had something else in mind for us?

      Daniel 12:2
      «Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt».

      Well, bad enough with all contempt in this life. But what about everlasting contempt, also beyond our death? Since our God is everlasting, i guess our souls also are everlasting? How can people who sleep in the dust of he earth» awake, if there was not a life beyond the grave? And if there is everlasting contempt beyond the grave, that sounds quite Hellish.

      You see Mocha Man:

      I am quoting from your Holy Book, the Tanakh. You might not have noticed, but I have not even quoted on line from the New Testament since your first comment. I have only quoted from the Tanakh and the Torah.

      Back to Your question:
      «By which faith are the billions of people, that you are so concerned about, better served?»

      We have to serve the Jewish Messiah, sent by the only true and living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      You asked me: «Which are you?»

      Thats easy to explain: All what I already have learnt, and all I am going to learn, have its origin in Israel. All my blessings have come out from Israel. My Bible is a Jewish book. All the Prophetic books I read are Jewish, and the Messiah are Jewish. My Lord is a Jew. True «Christianity» have to be Jewish. False Christianity have during the past two thousand years antagonized the Jewish people, and kept many Jews away from their own Messiah.

      You wrote:

      «Paul says that he went from town to town preaching the teaching of Christianity from TORAH».

      Yes, just like Paul, I have done the same to you.

      «You wrote:

      «Remember at this time there was NO Christian text».

      You are absolutely correct. And when you start to read the New Testament, you will be surprised that the text is Jewish from A to Z. Not only Paul quoted from the Torah. Y´shua from Nazareth did the same. He did not have the New Testament to quote from.

      You wrote:

      «If Paul is right and if Christianity is true you should be able to easily prove all of the Christian teachings from Torah with NO reference to the Christian text».

      Well, thats exactly what I have done.

  7. “Well,that’s exactly what I have done.” NO you haven’t.

    It is amazing to me how people like you can be so very dogmatic about something for which you are willing to accepts such very thin ‘proof’ of. You quote a few verses that you interpret to mean something that is totally out of context, and then feel you have made your point. You totally ignore the whole of Torah and focus on a hand full of verses that, with your select interpretation, seem to support your Christian view.

    Maybe that too, is one of those places where Christians and Jews are 180 degrees apart. Jews tend to study for hours looking at every angle, considering both the smallest letter and the whole of Torah. We seek out, not avoid, those that disagree with us so that we can together learn more. Christian seem to latch on to a hand full of verses, assume a given meaning and then start preaching.

    I started posting on this blog because I wanted to correct an error. I continued discussing these items with you because I thought maybe, just maybe you were one of of those rare Christians (I have seen a few) that care more about G_D and the truth then they do their theology. To this end I asked you “Which are you?”. As you have done with nearly everything I have said, you made a response, but you did NOT answer the question. But in your non-answer you did clearly tell me that you are in the second group. You are not seeking the truth, only a place to preach. You have NO interest in learning what Judaism is really all about, because you insist on clinging to the same old misrepresentation the church has had for centuries.

    As the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can not force it to drink. I have shown you a bit of the light of Torah and you have closed your eyes. If some day you decide to open your eyes the link I provided in my second post is a great resource.

    You said you don’t want to argue but that is all this is going to lead to, if it hasn’t already become such. I wish you well. I thank you for your support of Israel. I just wish you support for Judaism was as strong as your support for Israel.

    Shalom and good by

    • Not to be rude, Mocha man, but at least ivarfjeld is using SOME verses from the Scriptures. I just read through this dialogue between the two of you, and as an outsider looking in, it’s very obvious that only one of you is using the authoritative text of the Scriptures to make any clear points.
      Mocha man (again, I am not trying to be rude), but if you have “studied for hours looking at every angle”, why don’t you exhibit some of that intense study here for Mr. Ivarfjeld? I’m sure you are aware that the way you have ‘graded’ Mr. Ivarfjeld’s comments (“dogmatic”, “very thin proof”, “commentary is weak or non-existent”) is quite shallow in itself, and borders on insult. Hey, I understand, if you can’t answer Mr. Ivarfjeld’s exposition of Jewish texts, all is not lost: you can always turn to insults.
      Perhaps my reply to you would serve best if I stop here and say: Mr. Ivarfjeld has quite lovingly, patiently, and (I must say) knowledgeably responded to your questions and given very coherent, logical input. Your comments about his efforts are not very good, to put it lightly. That may be an insult to you, but please understand that that is not my intent. If you truly believe in an authoritative text, like the Torah, and your whole life and belief system is in accordance with it, you would show yourself to be much more convincing in this debate if you could actually explain to Mr. Ivarfjeld (and readers like me) what it is your believe by showing the texts and explaining what the texts means. So far, all of your words have been your own. You know as well as Mr. Ivarfjeld that your own words are not the same as the Words of God. When the Word of God is quoted and exposited (and, for that matter, read, memorized, studied, etc.), then there is a high degree of power in what is said that just simply does not exist when we just talk off the top of our heads. That is why Deuteronomy 6:6-9 commands such heavy emphasis on the Word of God in the home and family. God’s Words have power, and anything else we teach our children or learn ourselves is knowledge that will perish with our bodies, not to mention knowledge that has the potential to lead us AWAY from God.
      Same goes for your replies. Your replies are void of Scripture. My question to you is: Can you explain your view of hell’s non-existence, the Jew’s sufficiency in life without the Messiah (you said you have everything JC offered WITHOUT him, so you must mean to say that there is no need for you personally to have the Messiah for which you are waiting, outside of world peace), the idea that all that matters is what you do in this life, etc. etc. by quoting Scripture and explaining what God is saying in those passages?
      As an outsider looking in, I think this debate would be much more even if you could answer my question with Scripture. Otherwise, in my opinion, you’re the only one resting on “very thin proof”.

      • Thank you for this comment. I just want to add, that we might disagree on who the Messiah is. But our defense for our views should be based on the scripture.

    • MochaMan-

      Bravo!

      You’re totally right. It’s nice to see another Jew trying to shatter misconceptions.

      I’m done with this blog as well. Too many people spewing verses down my throat from contrived sources rather than the Torah.

      Zach

      • If G_D, as HE has, only asks the non-Jew to obey 7 simple laws to get to heaven then there is no need for Christianity. Most people have obeyed those laws without even trying or knowing them. If there is no hell, then there is no need to be ‘saved’ from hell. I could go on but I think I have made my point.

        Can you please tell me, Since you say that MochaMan was trying to Shatter Misconceptions, Where Torah says there are Seven Laws for Non Jews to follow? And also, Dont you find it rather odd that Mocha Man says that MOST People have been able to follow them yet no one on earth has ever been able to perfectly follow the law! And if you are Guilty in one point you are Guilty of breaking all of the Law.
        MochaMan acts as if he knows all things.

        AND AS SOON AS HE WAS CALLED OUT FOR NEVER QUOTING A SCRIPTURE HE GOT UPSET AND STOPPED SPEAKING.

        Sorry but if you were here to shatter misconceptions you would still be speaking

    • Quote from Mochaman

      Quote”
      started posting on this blog because I wanted to correct an error. I continued discussing these items with you because I thought maybe, just maybe you were one of of those rare Christians (I have seen a few) that care more about G_D and the truth then they do their theology.”

      WHat makes you an Authority on Judiasm? YOU! that is all!
      You saying that He has Twisted The OT scriptures into his Christain Views is NOT a well founded statement. In fact, Your statement in that regard is downright what you are accusing Ivar of!! You say that he is twisting the Torah?

      How?

      Sorry, But if some awake to Everlasting Shame I would say that there is no other way to Interpret that then “Some awake to everlasting shame”

      Now stop saying someone is twisting that statement. It simply says what it says. No INTERPRETATION Needed!!

      It really makes me angry when I see people do what you did Mocha man

  8. Dear Mocha Man

    Shalom.

    You wrote:

    I just wish you support for Judaism was as strong as your support for Israel.

    My comment:

    Well, this blog is available for you, to explain Judaism. I have not omitted a word of your comments.

    I disagree with you, that I do not want to learn. Since I am quoting from both the Tanakh and the Torah, I must obviously have studied the scriptures.

    If I am quoting the scripture out of context, you are in fact the one that God might have sent, to correct me. If you love me, you would do so.

    Messianic Jews who claims that Y´shua is the Messiah, are Jews good as any other Jew. Many of them are Torah observing Jews, just like I presume you are.

    The only difference between you and a Messianic Jew, is that a Messianic Jew do claim that the Messiah have already come. I hope and pray, that you at least are waiting for Him. If so, we are both! I guess the Messiah want the majority of his chosen people to be surprised by who He was/is, and forever will be.

    Brother: May the Lord bless you, and keep you.

  9. I thought you might be interested in learning about OUR Jewish traditions. We are the Frankist Association of America. One of our members has a new book out:

    What you teach is not Jewish; it is make-believe. Learn the TRUE Jewish traditions of Christianity.

    Beth El Jacob Frank

    • Dear El Jacob Frank

      Shalom.

      The book you want us to read, claims that the Papal throne is in Egypt, and that the Apostle Mark was given the task of becoming the «Vicar of Christ». The endless dispute of Apostolic succession is a distortion of the gospel. Jesus did not given any of his student more importance. He wanted all of them to listen, to the soon to come «Vicar of Christ». He promised to send a helper to all who were ready to submit to his Lordship: «The Holy Spirit» is the one and only Vicar of Christ on Earth.

      In regard to Jewishness: If you were a Bible believing Jew, you would be home in Eretz Israel by now, to protect and develop the promised land. The US is not the promised land of the Jewish people.

      • ivarfjeld says:
        June 25, 2009 at 9:56 am

        Dear El Jacob Frank

        Shalom.

        The book you want us to read, claims that the Papal throne is in Egypt, and that the Apostle Mark was given the task of becoming the «Vicar of Christ». The endless dispute of Apostolic succession is a distortion of the gospel. Jesus did not given any of his student more importance. He wanted all of them to listen, to the soon to come «Vicar of Christ». He promised to send a helper to all who were ready to submit to his Lordship: «The Holy Spirit» is the one and only Vicar of Christ on Earth.

        In regard to Jewishness: If you were a Bible believing Jew, you would be home in Eretz Israel by now, to protect and develop the promised land. The US is not the promised land of the Jewish people.

        My Comment:
        Did you read where Ivar tells someone that “in reqard to Jewishness: If you were a Bible believing Jew, you would be home in Eretz Israel by now,…”

        Now this is not the only time and place Ivar has told someone if they were a Bible believing Jew they would be in Israel.

        So Ivar, Joel, and Gloria I have now shown you proof that Ivar does say that to people what I said he does, proof that I did not have to show you all.
        Looks like you need to apologize to me, Joel.
        Now….good bye.

      • Dear Victoria

        Shalom

        Let me copy Joel:

        Chill.

        Victoria,
        Despite what you claim, Ivarfjeld never said “”the Jesus of Victoria”” is a big fool.” He said “[An Israel without Jews] would have made. . . the “Jesus of Victoria” a big fool.”

        My reply:

        You spend a lot of time being angry on people for no reason. You do not understand the messages that people give you, but read them as you want, and replies to messages that was never given.

        And you call your self a child of god.

        It is true that America is not the land, God promised the Jews. I thought that must be obvious for all who can read, have read the Bible, and is not online on this blog just to read their own comments.

        One of the reasons why there are Messianic Jews and other Jews in America, is that Israel also needs support from the outside. America was a young nation open to Jews, is the days Zion, and most other nations were hostile and closed.

        Again Victoria, I will have to tell you to take a break. Your self announced breaks do not last long enough, that the rest of us can take you seriously.

        Or come back and read the messages that people give you, before you reply.

      • Victoria,

        To search messages, and try and find something against Ivar is beyond my imagination. You try and find something wrong with Ivar, yet you are the very person who labeled Pentecostal Christians and a man practicing psychic (witch craft) in the same catagory.

        Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.

        I think Victoria you and I can both learn about being more humble and patient with others.

        God Bless

  10. There is only one Christ, and he is Jesus Son of Mary

    For the Jews, Muslims, Christians, and everyone in the world – Jesus is the only Messiah, the only Christ. The Jewish idea of “oh hes not our messiah, hes ‘your’ messiah” is a bunch of heretical rhetoric. Jews Must believe in Jesus, they have no choice!

    • Dear Bidal.

      Shalom. «Jesus son of Mary» is a Muslim concept, a prophet who was gifted, but the highest prophet is Muhammad. Both of them under a god called Allah. You have to believe in God the Son, the Jewish Messiah called Jesus of Nazareth. He is the God the Son equal to God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yes, all Jews, Muslim, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus and whatever they might be, have to be saved by Him.

  11. Give me the oportunity to debate you both on my site.

    http:// thetruereligion.
    wordpress.com
    /2009/03/17/
    ultimate-religious-debate/

    • Dear Al Faarooq.

      Thanks for the invitation. I did not delete your web-link. Anyone who reads this is free to visit your blogg and debate with you. You are also always welcome to comment my articles.

  12. Thank you, please note that the invite is extended to Hindus as well. I’ve Studied the Holy Scriptures since a very young age, the person I am today is the same as I was when in my childhood, the knowledge I posess I had since the age of three, I began debating elders of various belief systems since five years of age… My personal Advice to all is learn not just to know but learn to understand.

    May the Almighty Allah Guide you Inshallah.
    Like Jesus the son of Mary I too say “For it is written” which means it is not his own words nor is it mine but the very Message of the Almighty Allah.

    I would appreciate it if Jewish Brothers could also engage in this.

  13. Dear Al Faarooq

    Your wrote: «Like Jesus the son of Mary I too say “For it is written».

    My question:

    Where was it written? Jesus lived 600 years before the Koran.

    I guess it was written in the Jewish scriptures?

  14. I hope you don’t mind me giving you some constuctive critisism, this is not to bring you into the fold of Islaam

    Jesus the son of Mary never says he is your Creator!

    Before you quote this verse let me show it to you in the correct way:
    “In the beginning there was the Word (Message) and the Word (Message: Revelations) was with Allah, and the Word is about Allah.” The Torah, Bible and Quran is the Word (Divine Messages) of Allah.

    (This reply was many pages, and has been shortened)

    • alfaarooq1 says:

      July 24, 2009 at 8:33 pm

      I hope you don’t mind me giving you some constuctive critisism, this is not to bring you into the fold of Islaam

      Jesus the son of Mary never says he is your Creator!

      “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM”

      So Al Faarooq1,
      What do you think he was referencing here? I AM? I AM? I AM? I AM? I AM?

      Who was the I AM?

    • In The Revelation Jesus say: “I am the beginning”…So Jesus is The beginning. And Genisis starts with the words: “In The beginning God created heaven and earth”. So, if Christ is The beginning, this must mean: “In Jesus Christ God created heaven and earth. Can it be more clearly?

  15. For the record it is unlawful to have pre-marital relations (sex before marriage) Because of the trinity fabrication Christians in fact accuse Jesus the son of Mary of this sin since they claim he is his own father meaning he slep with his own mother, since he is not married this is called adultery correct? since he is human like us who has a penis and is comparable to any man and is but a prophet you (Christians) accuse him of saying he is divine which means you put him in the light of Blasphemy now how Christ Like is Christianity? How will you recognise Jesus peace be upon him when he returns? He looks like us, prays like is he is a Muslim how would you know if I was him since I look alot like him? Fact is Christians will not recognise the Messiah they will shun him and say get away Arab because he looks like us and is one of us but on the other hand the Muslims will recognise him and will welcome him with open arms saying As’salaamu Alaikum we have been awaiting you our brother.

    Ponder on what you believe because it does not make sense at all, the Almighty does not play games with us He loves is dearly and would not mess with His beloved creation, He created one race the Human race and beautified us into many nations so we may know each other. The Almighty does not make mistakes but we do. I hope you have the honesty to post my comments without editing it in any way.

    No hate brother for we Muslims love thy neighbor as ye love yourself.

    • I think you are lost. You dont make sense!!

      What you just said about Adultry and Jesus is an absolute attempt to start trouble.

      But I expect that from a Muslim.

      I got news for you,

      If any Christain would not accept Jesus when it returns because he looks like another race other then their own then they most likely are not a Christian.

      IN fact, Your comments dont even deserve a response.

      • That isn’t fair. they are valid statements from his point of view, although I dislike Islam, he makes a point. don’t dismiss him. He makes as much sense as any of you do.

    • If Jesus or God had sex with Mary to concive Jesus, then Mary would not be a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. But she was a virgin. An unused holy tool like the tools used in The Temple service. If you read about Jesus after The reserection, he comes to his disciples inside a closed room. As Creator and God He is not bound by time and space, He can show up wherever He wants. He can as God be a invisible Ghost like The Holy Ghost, and also chouse to materialize himself, in The company With His followers, so They could touch Him and Even eat With Him. And more then 500 meet Him as alive after death. And When Paul wrote about it, more then half of them where still alive. Eyewitnesses you Could have gone and visited. And it would have been stupid to write this in a letter, If this was a false claim.

      So the same happened with the Messianich cell, that melted together with the human eggcell in Marys woumb. IT just materialized in There, No sex needed. No crime done. And Mary agreed to let this happening. Why are you so sex-focused? Is it typical for muslims? And why can’t you try to see this from God’s point of view? For Him nothing is impossible.

  16. some thoughts on “replacement theology”

    “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
    -His righteousness was not by the flesh but by faith

    “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

    -in fact when the jews of his time tried to claim the blessing of Abraham Jesus reproached them

    “39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

    41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

    42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

    44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

    -in fact to God there is no fleshly race but a spiritual race of people that his promise is to, through faith

    28There is neither JEW nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29And if ye be Christ’s, THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM”S SEED, and heirs according to the promise”

    -but there is an idea of what the Christ denying jews now should be called in the Bible

    22″Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son”

    -you can not support the father and not the son! that is what many people forget now when they say we must support Israel to gain God’s favor. That really makes no sense…support the ones who deny the son and you will be blessed??

    No where did Jesus commision us to “support Israel” no where does he say that we have to “support thier wars”. In fact Jesus commisioned us to Preach the good word and spread the news about the kingdom of heaven.

    one more quote on the matter-
    “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

    YET YE HAVE NOT KNOWN HIM; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

    56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

    REMEMBER Jesus himself said his kingdom is not of this world and that is part of the reason that the Jews of his day then and the Jews of today will not accept him as Messiah. They expected an earthly king. we are waiting for a NEW JERUSALEM coming down from heaven…not one FORMED THROUGH THE FORCE OF BOMBS AND GUNS BUT ONE THROUGH THE SWORD OF JESUS’ MOUTH. The one that forms the kingdom through guns and bombs is the antichrist…remember he establishes his throne in Israel.

    SWORD OF HIS MOUTH
    Pretty powerfull picture of Jesus here as the risen KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS

    -And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    NEW JERUSALEM
    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (and no more ISRAEL OR JERUSALEM)

    2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

    4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    in closing I just want to say that there are some Jews that in the end will see Jesus as thier Messiah and be powerfull evangalists in the end times(as revelations states) but NO WHERE does the bible say that we are saved through grace AND OUR SUPPORT OF ISRAEL. You can not deny the SON AND HAVE THE BLESSINGS OF THE FATHER THAT IS FALSE.

    Jesus and the fahter are one
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    the hour is approaching where you will not have another chance to confess him with your lips and accept him in your heart and be saved.

    • Dear Steve.

      Welcome to this site.

      I feel you should make small comments. Rather take one point at the time. People will not read your long message.

      • Come now, ivarfeld. All he did was quote Bible verses- verses that, at least on the surface, seem to contradict your beliefs. You should respond to at least some of them?

    • Steve,
      I read your long message and liked it because it shows(using bible verses)that we are looking forward to a Heavenly Kingdom of God and not earthly. Thanks for quoting Jesus’s words when explaining the difference between spiritual and physical as we get easily entangled with strifes of the flesh and start to think this is home…but our conversation is in Heaven, as it is written–But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.And again–But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels–

      • Dear Steve and Witness.

        Shalom.

        This is well and good. The New Jerusalem will eventually come down from Heaven.

        But till then, we do have a Earthly Jerusalem to care for. Jesus is coming back to the physical Mount of Olives. He is not going to separate the sheep from the goats in Heaven. The goats will never enter that place. The final battle and separation will therefor take palace in the present Jerusalem. That is why God the Bible has restored Zion.

      • Without contradicting your comment, please explain what Jesus meant when He said the following verses in Luke chapter 12: 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
        “When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, ‘It’s going to rain,’ and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, ‘It’s going to be hot,’ and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don’t know how to interpret this present time?

      • Witness, This is in response to your mesage dated 7/28 @ 5:12pm

        I believe that Luke Chapter 12 are the signs Jesus gave us to look for as to his coming.

        Mother against daughter? That’s exactly what’s happening today. Families are not seeking Jesus, so they are divided. Murders against family members are at an all time high. And Jesus gave us these signs, and still people do not repent from their sins.

      • Gloria,
        Thanks for replying. I find it intresting though that Jesus says the signs of “present time”meaning the time the discussion took place.How do u mean family that aren’t seeking Jesus are devided? Do you perhaps mean when 1 member is a believer and the other not? Because it says that Jesus himself is come to set a man against his father…and carries on to say “Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me” And in Matthew10 is like this ” Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved”. I get the impression that the cause of devision is the name of Jesus. What do you think?

      • Witness this is in reply to your message dated 7/28/10 at 7:26pm.

        Luke Chapter 12 is Jesus speaking to a crowd, John, and Peter. John the Baptist began his ministry at this period. Even back then, people could read the signs of nature, but were still ignorant when it came to Christ.

        Families who are not close and seeking Jesus fall further into Satan’s stronghold. The devil uses anything to bring down a soul into the fires of hell. Satan has already been defeated, but he will do anything to take as many souls with him.

        Luke 12:53 Jesus is speaking the hard plight of a follower of Christ. If a Dad is Christian, and the son is not, the son would persecute the father, a boy he had raised.

        Matthew 10:35 The verse before 35 (verse 34) the word “sword” means the word of God. And because Jesus came with the word (sword) he, set a man against his father, mother against daughter- meaning one will believe in God and the other won’t.

        Matthew 10:37 I believe this verse to mean that some of us may have parents who are not followers of Christ, and will have a choice to follow Jesus or to love their parents more, that they chose to follow their parents. GOD MUST ALWAYS COME FIRST.

        Persecution has always been here, but will get worse and worse. Father will persecute his own son, because he will believe in Christ. But our victory is in Christ, and as long as we remain strong in him, our faith cannot be shaken by anything.

      • If you want to look at it that way, then yes. But it’s up to us to choose to become the sheep, because Jesus made it crystal clear, whoever does not choose to worship him, the creator of all things, the lake of fire is what awaits them.

  17. Greetings to all,

    I’ve been carefully reading your comments with Mocha Man. Please excuse me for my poor English, which is not my mothertongue.

    Please see that I love and respect all humanity as it is simply G-D’s creation. I can say the same about that Jew that lived long ago and you beleive is the messaiah.
    I know this beleive is simply incorrect but again, I respect the beliefs of others.
    Simply saying – I have no problem that you will continue beleiving in what you want – I will just try to advise you with one simple advise with regards to the Jews, the sons of Jacob, sons of Israel.

    Looking at one of your final statements to Mocha Man, I found one that is simply missing the point. Messianic jews – are not only acting agains G-D’s will as stated in the Torah but worse than that, are using the same preaching techniques used by missionaries to confuse other fellow jews.

    There is no way to observe the Torah and yet act as a messianic jew!… G-D gave us the Torah in writing and orally. Messianic jews are doing all efforts to use their own interprentations (and frequently incorrect) to the written Torah, substituting the oral part that was given to us by using the church interpretations…

    I agree with you on one point – Jews that were brought to this world by G-D and that are calling themselves “Messianic Jews” are Jews like me and others. Consequently, they are probably judged according to the same criteria… Under those terms, I do not envy on those that are going offensively against G-D will as stated in the Torah.

    A last comment – since the term of “salvation” is not “used” in Judaism – please allow me to recommend you 3 ways to go if you want to improve your situation in this world and towards the future:

    1. The best and easier “deal” here and later in heaven – go for the 7 Noahide laws (Mocha Man sent you a link with explanations). This is what G-D asks you to do and this is the best possible way to “save” the opportunity you were given in this world.

    2. If you feel that those 7 laws are great but yet those are truly not enough for you and you need/want to be in a different spiritual place – you may consult a Rabbi that deals with conversions. Judaism is not looking to convert – as people were born according to G-D’s will. Conversion is not encouraged in any terms in Judaism and is not driven by any serious Jew. But I know some very specific and limited cases in which people found internally, in their soul, that this is the way for them and eventually, after a long, hard and sometimes painful process – they converted to Judaism. Maybe, after our long history, this is part of the return of Israel home… maybe those special people are having something that needs to be united back to the people of Israel. Again, option 1 is more recommended – it is easier and more practical to keep 7 and not 613!…

    3. If you find that 1 and 2 are nice but not for you – do yourself a favor and try not to be involved with the missionary work towards even a single Jew (directly or through Messianic organizations). It looks logical that people involved with the confusion of even a single Jew, will be paying a very high price. Mr. Paul and others for sure paid the price for those deeds and you can “save” yourself from being in that situation. Obviously you may continue preaching with all others – but be carefull of that single son of Jacob that, G-D forbid, might have no tools to deal with your sayings, quotings and interpretations – the same way that G-D asks us to take care of orphans, widows and not to take advantage of their situation – the same way you should be carefull of dealing with that single Jew, son of G-D that is perhaps not lucky to better know the Torah and that is not so aware of the law.
    From this moment (if not earlier) – you will not be able to say that you were not told not to be involved with missionary work with Jews. You are told now and you should be ready to pay the price from this moment on (this price in the exact opposite direction of any king of “Salvation”…).

    I spent the time to write obviously not to ofend, but since I saw that you do care so much for the people of Israel. As correctly said in the blog (in another section) – those that are against Israel are against Jacob, are assuming the job of Israel’s enemies in the Torah, with all the consequences.

    As such and since I saw you do care, I thought that a little help about how to do it correctly – will be a small and humble contribution to the world.

    Wishing all humanity peace, freedom and the immediate arrival of THE MESSAIAH.

    • Dear Loving Jews.

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      Your own Tannakh have verses that proves that Y´shua is the Messiah:

      Isaiah 9:6
      For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

      Who is this child, this Son that will be called Mighty God?

      My blessings and my salvations have come out of Israel. It came from a Jew, the most perfect Jew that have ever walked on Earth. Born into a Torah observant family, who kept all the Feast and died for the sins of both Jews and gentiles.

  18. The translation to English of the verse in overall looks fine but the interpretation you are using is false.
    The child is not the child you think about..
    I do not see the reason to start and show you the correct interpretation as I beleive this is a “pilar” verse in the bulding of your faith and understanding of the text. It will not be probably easy for you to accept – and that’s fine. My recommendation to you is still in place – please see my previous message.
    Have a nice day!

    • Dear Loving Jew.

      You might be right. But these verses can only be the crucified Messiah:

      Isaiah 53:4-6

      Surely he took up our infirmities, and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God,
      smitten by him, and afflicted.

      But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

      We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

      (end of scriptures)

      Read this together with Isaiah 9:6.

      Dear brother.

      Can you see the Lamb of God on that cross, giving His own blood to cleanse you from your sins?

    • Dear Loving Jew.

      The seven laws of Moshiach do not deal with sins. Sin is the corruption of both Jews and gentiles that God of the Bible holds against mankind. But God of Israel promised to take care of sins, a promise of a new covenant given us in the Tannakh:

      Jeremiah 31:31-34

      “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

      It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant though I was a husband to [a] them, [b] ”
      declares the LORD.

      “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

      No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

      (end of scriptures)

      There is no longer a Temple in Jerusalem, no longer any blood offerings available as the law of Moses demands.

      Now, its the blood of the Lamb of God that cleanses us from all stains and guilt of sins.

  19. I’m impressed by the time and efforts you dedicate.

    Please see that the whole concept of “salvation” as presented in your email is strange if not peculiar for a jew that knows that we were not born in a sin..

    We thank G-D for life, for the oportunity given, we are happy for the opportunity to keep the Torah, we pray for doing right and avoid doing wrong in this world and we certainly are not going around life with the feeling of being born guilty with a sin…
    The almighty created a nicer, more advanced and amazing system – which is by far supreme to the ideas you talk about and for sure much more happy and optimistic…
    For us, our daily life, given to us as a daily present by G-D, is according to the Torah, through an heritage given from generation to generation and obviously there is no room to add or change G-D words as stated clearly in the Torah.
    This is perhaps a more adequate background to understand the 7 laws asked from gentiles. I would say that before you make any changes in your ideas – it will be a great practice for you to start and work according to the laws. With the help of G-D you may understand better words that may sound inadequate(?) now.

    The misunderstanding or misinterpretations of the words of our holy prophets can not and will not (with the help of G-D) alter our obligations with G-D.
    I think I understand your point of view and I respect it to a certain level even if it is clear to me that is based on mistakes. I must say that I get a bit “tired” seeing translated verses of the holy prophets books with incorrect interpretations leading to false conclusions.

    As for the future – yes, of course we pray to see the meshiach NOW! And yes – we are going towards bright days in which the reality will be clear to all those that G-D will want them to see that reality.

    G-D knows how your relegion has changed the lives of many in cetrain parts of the world that were dealing with idolatry.
    At the same time – I want to remind you my previous message regarding the severe responsibility that is upon the one that makes the efforts to confuse a jew to a wrong direction.

    Well, this was a long letter and it is time for the most important meeting now – time to pray to G-D.

    • Dear Loving Jew.

      You should show and express more love towards other believers in the Messiah. We server the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as you. But we disagree with your understanding of the Torah and the Tannakh. We believe that the Messiah has already come once, and that He is coming back.

      Your Messianic faith is not good news. Because you live in sin, because you have not blood for offer for your transgressions. The Temple in Jerusalem is gone, and the Jewish people have been in exile scattered to the four corner of the Earth. But in Jesus the Messiah, there is redemption for sins in His blood. The Holy Spirit has made the body of all believers the Temple of God.

      This is good news. This is the True meaning of the Messianic Faith in God of Israel.

  20. @ the person called Loving Jew:

    I have to defend your stance against the fabricating christian, as a Muslim (Mushlam) [i.e. a person who is perfect and complete in total submission to the will of Allah] It is evident that the Torah clearly states that the Almighty is One, The Lord of the Worlds, he is Allah (Hebrew: Eloah) (Aramaic: Allaha) He is Eternal Abolute, He begets not, nor has He been begotten, and He is Incomparably Great.

    As a Muslim we belive in Allah, His Angels,His Books [i.e. the Holy Zabur, Torah, Injeel/ Bible and Al Quran] His Mesengers, and we make no distinction between any of them, our religion is that of Ibraheem (Abraham) peace be upon him, he was not of the Idolaters, he is a Mushlam (Muslim)

    Christians do not understand the fact that the Almighty is Incomparably Great which means He can not be compared to His creation if you do this you fall out of religion and become a non-believer, the Almighty is not man nor does he have sons or daughters such things are un-g_dly, He does not have need for food and drink, nor does He make use of a tiolet.

    Ifarj this is for you and the person called Loving Jew:

    I do believe we can stand united in the same cause by placing our differences aside we can stand side by side fighting one common enemy we have and this enemy is the devil, why fight the devil alone? We can stand together in doing good works, I have therefore written a letter to the Vatican and Neturei Karta in Jerusalem inviting towards this common goal. Ifarj… I know you do not associate with the Vatican but my letter is to them first because they are the largest christian group.

    The Land of Israel is not what you think of now but it is much larger I’m writing a Book on this subject I’m thinking of calling the Book My Beloved Israel, it starts from the time of Moses encounter with Pharoah and continues to the end times, it is very detailed and breaks much of the codes unknown of scripture for many years.

    Please take time to read this request it is not spam or anti-faith you can judge it for yourself see link below, I hope you will post this on your site.

    http://thetruereligion.wordpress.com/2009/07/02/the-umn-intl-open-letter-to-vatican-and-neturei-karta-international/

    May the Almighty Allah guide us all.

    Please join me in Prayer unto our Lord as there is only One.

    1. In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
    2. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
    3. The Beneficent, the Merciful.
    4. Owner of the Day of Judgment,
    5. Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help.
    6. Guide us on the straight path,
    7. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who astray.

    • To alfarooq1,

      How can you believe in this Mohammed who was an abuser and liar?

      Jesus Christ has died for our sins, and through only him can we be saved. I pray and hope that you realize this soon. While you have breath in your body, there is still a chance for repentence.

      I have seen an angel, and have been in the presence of Christ. It was a feeling of so much love and perfection, it’s hard to describe. But I will pray that you turn away from Satan’s lies before it’s too late.

      God Bless.

      • I have never felt the overwhelming love of Christ. I renounced the holy spirit. I didn’t have cOntrol. Something evil just overtook me. It’s not fair God condemns me and won’t forgive me when I was seeking Him.

      • Leah, in that case the “something evil” carried out the offensive act. It offended the spirit of our redeemer, you did not.

        Seek him, you will find him.

  21. I apologize, brother, but I’m afraid I need to respectfully disagree with very much of what you’ve written on this (“The People of the Book,” including “Did the Jews Kill their Own Messiah?”) page.
    1) First, “replacement theology” is an inherently deceptive label. Non-dispensational believers simply do not claim that Israel has been replaced by the church. Rather, they say that Israel is the church; Gentiles have been grafted into Israel, making them sons of Abraham, while rebellious Jews are “divorced,” or broken off from he covenant. As someone who happens to believe that God has one people, (the Church/Israel/His Bride) I’m rather offended by the label “replacement theologian.”
    2) Yes, we all bear the guilt for Christ’s death. In all actuality, though, the Jews of the day did, in fact, kill their Messiah. They merely used the Romans to do it. Would we all have done the same? Yes. Does that excuse the murder of Jesus? No. (And yes, it was murder. Just because he didn’t stay dead doesn’t mean he wasn’t murdered.)

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, and welcome to this sit.

      The label replacement theology is basically used for those Christians who feel that God`s promises to the Jewish people are over, and were made null and void the day Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. After this moment in time, The Church replaced the Jews as god´s chosen people, and took over the Biblical promises. Like the right to live in the promised land in the Middle East.

      • I appreciate the welcome, but again, for most of the Christian church that “does not believe in God’s continued work with Israel” (I am temporarily using your definition of “Israel”) the issue is not in fact a replacement.
        “People who preach replacement theology teach that God of the Bible has ended His special relationship with he Jewish people.” It is implied in this statement that if one believes that God’s relationship with the physical descendants of Abraham, in their status as physical descendants of Abraham, is over, then one is a replacement theologian. In this usage, “replacement theology” is a completely inaccurate name. Is it possible that I am misunderstanding your use of the term “replacement theology?”

      • Dear Joel.

        Frankly, If does not matter what most Christian Churches thinks, feels and say about this topic. Its a about God`s heart, and His promises. When He has said that the Jewish people (12 tribes of Israel) forever will be His chosen people, He means forever. This is about the character of God of the Bible. Father, Son and Holy Spirit is One God.

        Churches that have a different opinion, are basically accusing Jesus the Messiah of being a liar. That He is not the one who have gathered the Jewish people back home to Zion, as promised is the prophetic Word. The Jews are not back home in Israel because they deserve such grace and mercy from our Lord, but because God of the Bible promised He would do so, just before His One and Only begotten Son returns to Earth in flesh.

  22. Dear ivarfjeld,
    First and foremost, you are correct. What we say will not change the truth. However, I have not even started to talk about who has the truthful view. All I have said is that, whether it is a true or false doctrine, the thing you refer to as “replacement theology” DOES NOT, in fact, believe in replacement. It is even a bit of an offensive label, because it is not true. That’s all I’m saying- just aiming for clarity in speech.

    Okay. Up until this point, I have not even taken a side in the debate. Now, though, I am going to change that. I do, in fact have a side. I happen to believe that Christ and Paul go to GREAT lengths to explain that being a physical Jew does not make you an Israelite/true descendant of Abraham. The passages I believe deal with this are many and varied. God made many promises to Israel, yes, and we all believe that they will be fulfilled. No one is calling the Messiah a liar, we just have different beliefs about what “Israel” means, and we should at least have the ability to discuss, to try to be unified in the truth, to find out which one of us is actually right, since we each believe that we are. Moreover, we should be able to do this without throwing insults at each other.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, and thanks for your comments. I love this kind of debates.

      Pauls says you have to be a Jew inwardly. How do we check the inner parts of a Jew? How do we check is He is circumcised in his heart?

      I guess the inward changes will manifest it self in some kind of action? Here there is no difference with born again Christians. Our heart also have to be circumcised.

      A Jew that Has not returned to Zion, is living in disobedience to the God of Israel. A claimed to be Christian who do not support a Jewish homecoming to the promised land in the last days, are either religious, a student of a false false teacher, or is simply disconnected from the Holy Spirit.

      Not everyone who have returned to Zion are Jews. One million Russians have returned from the former Soviet Union, and do not even have the basic knowledge of the Bible. Many Jews are secular, and confused. But many secular Jews I have met believe a Messiah is coming to save Israel. The Messiah will during his return separate the sheep and the goats among His children, Jew and gentiles alike.

      And Matthew 7:21-23 tells us that it is not faith in Jesus that saves. Only He saves, and He can rescue whomever it pleases Him, regardless of my opinion. To have faith in my own faith is a huge deception within claimed to be «Christianity». We need to have faith in Him.

      • Yes. Our hearts have to be circumcised, whether we are male or female, slave or free, Jew or Gentile. I would argue, though, that “one who possesses a circumcised heart” is one way we could define the word “Israelite.” After all, he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly, but he IS a Jew who is one inwardly.

        Elsewhere, we are told that God can raise up children for Abraham from rocks. Obviously, this means being a physical descendant from Abraham, then, is not a necessary prerequisite to being a child of Abraham, correct?

      • Dear Joel.

        Luke 3:8
        Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

        The clues is in the first sentence. Fruit, and repentance. Jesus the Messiah is not impressed with what people say. There has to be manifestations of repentance. That means signs of a U-turn, away from disbelief and sins. John the Baptists did not baptize anyone, before He knew that people had made such a u-turn. And this was before Jesus had been crucified. The Bible says Jesus the Messiah will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and He surely does and will forever do.

        I once told a semi-secular Jewish women that she is not her own. She is His, even though she do not believe Jesus is the Messiah.

        Luke 1:33
        and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”

      • ivarfjeld,
        I think it is a very interesting discussion you and Joel are having. I think I could really learn something, but please, would you explain to me more what the difference is between you and the poster Joel believes?
        I believe like what Joel says, that some of the Jews were cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. And that the Jews could be grafted back on even easier if they do not persist in unbelief. The Bible says not all who came from Israel are Israel, right? So, the Jews are God’s first and chosen, but only grafted in if the Jew comes to God through Jesus.
        So again, do you not believe that too? What are your end time beliefs? Do Joel’s end time beliefs differ from yours? I am studying end time beliefs for a while now, and I’m not sure what to believe about it.
        I can’t figure out what you and Joels differences is. I really would like to understand better. Thank you if you can help.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom. I think Joel and I agree. Whatever end time view we have, only one thing is for sure. The answer is ahead of us. So let us have this debate, and learn from each other.

      • Yes. While we disagree on several things, we should discuss these things in love and work toward the Biblical truth. Doubtless, both ivarfeld and myself have theological corrections to make, and hopefully we can help each other with them.

      • Victoria,
        I know your question was directed at ivarfeld, but perhaps my response can be of some assistance. ivarfeld believes that the word “Israel” refers to the ethnic Jews. His end time beliefs are probably what is normally called “dispensational postmillenialism.” My end time beliefs are actually rather different. I do not pretend to have a sure and complete understanding of what will happen “at the end of the world,” therefore my beliefs about end times are, to my regret, more shaped by the beliefs that I repudiate than by those which I accept. However, ivarfeld and myself, I am sure, both agree very strongly that Christ is the prophesied Messiah, and that he is returning to earth.
        Last, but not least, if you are looking into end times beliefs, one book you should read is The End Times Made Simple by Samuel Waldron. Though I don’t necessarily agree with it completely, it is very helpful.

      • Joel,
        Thank you very much for this information. And I will look in to the book you suggested.

      • I made a rather embarrassing, mistake, Victoria. The phrase I meant to use was dispensational PREmillennialist. To the best of my knowledge, no one is a dispensational postmillenialist. My apologies.

      • Joel.

        Shalom.

        I am exited that someone has been able to find out what exactly I believe. But I dont know if I am able honor a tittle of being a «dispensational postmillenialism». Sounds difficult to me. What is it?

        It sound`s more easy to be a Messianic Christian. A gentile sinner saved by the Jewish Messiah Jesus, who firmly stand with His brothers and sisters in the flesh, the Jewish people, in their time of trouble.

      • Dear Joel.

        I had to go to wikipedia to find the meaning of your message.

        Postmillennialism also teaches that the forces of Satan will gradually be defeated by the expansion of the Kingdom of God throughout history up until the second coming of Christ.

        I do not agree with Postmillennialism.

        I found another word, that I liked much better: Post-tribulation premillennialism.

        If this makes sense to you, I believe we have already entered into the great tribulation. And the coming of the final anti-Christ in flesh into Jerusalem is imminent. I am ready to be raptured, but do not mind staying on Earth as long as my Master keeps me here. It will be a badly persecuted and bruised Church that will be taken away inside the Great Tribulation. Jesus has promised to shorten those days for His elect.

        Jesus will return in the clouds of Heaven to collect His Church, and take her to Jerusalem. From there He and His Holy Angels will rule the whole Earth. One day or 1000 years might be different measures for man and God, explains Peter. But Jesus will surely reign for some time on Earth, as King Messiah. Than the final judgment shall come.

      • Rather embarrassing, actually. The word I meant to use was PREmillennial… My apologies, and thank you for correcting me.
        That’s what I get for multitasking.

      • Joel.

        No issues. I am blessed by the debate on this site Jesus has opened, and uses us as His servants.

  23. Dear ivarfjeld

    And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

    Would you mind answering my question, ivarfjeld? Do you agree with or disagree with the statement “This verse proves that physical descent from Abraham is not necessary to be a child of Abraham.” ?

    Feel free to ask any questions of your own.

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom. I agree with this statement of Jesus. He can uses stones just as He like.

      In regards to Jews, the true Jews are those with Circumcised hearts. And the gate to Heaven is Jesus. Only He can save them.

  24. Dear ivarfjeld,
    Just to make sure that I am perfectly clear on everything, let me ask another question.
    To the best of my knowledge, I have no Jewish ancestry. According to your belief, if my heart is circumcised, does that make me part of Israel or does it not?
    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, and thanks for this question.

      If your heart is circumcised, and you feel your faith in Jesus has grafted you into the wine (Biblical Judaism), you are a part of the true Israel of God. You have enlarged Israel. When Jesus returns there will no loner be Jews and gentiles, but we will all be one people in the Messiah.

  25. Hi all
    After reading all the comments thus far, may I offer some things that may be helpful to both Jewish and Gentile contributors to these discussions.
    (1)Israel consists at present of two “houses”( House of Israel(Ephraim) and House of Judah) both of which are destined to be regathered in one united Kingdom under the coming Messiah.( Ezekiel 37 etc)
    (3) Consider this possibility: The House of Israel which went into exile long before the House of Judah and which was called “Lo ammi”(not my people’)(Hosea 1) because they rejected Torah, most likely assimilated fully with Gentile nations-( completely abandoning the Torah which “set them apart” from the Gentiles in the first place) and now leaving only Judah (Jews) as visible Israel. G-d prophesied the regathering of ALL Israel PLUS Gentiles who wish to serve Him. Is it not possible that the largely assimilated, intermarried, descendants of the “House of Israel” have begun to be regathered with other Gentiles to the G-d of Israel under the banner of Messiah Yahshua? ( He stated this as His mission (see Matt15:24)
    (2) Both “houses” of Israel ( the followers of Messiah plus the Jews (Judah) stumble over the “stone of stumbling”-( see isaiah 8:14) (ie: Messiah.) HOW?
    (a)The Jews stumbled in that they were temporarily blinded because the Passover Lamb HAD to sacrificed on all our behalf, so they could not see who they were sentencing.
    (b)The followers of Messiah have stumbled by following the “wolves” Paul and Yahshua warned about, who removed the Torah from our faith against the clear teaching of Messiah( Matt 5)and in so doing produced counterfeit “Christianity” with “another Jesus” false messiah(ante (in place of )Messiah.)
    (3)BOTH houses have to repent before Israel is fully restored and regathered.Judah will indeed recognise Messiah as the ” one whom they pierced” ( Zech 12:10) and those following Messiah will wake up to the fact that they have been following a counterfeit Torahless Jesus and celebrating the feasts of pagan Babylon instead of those given by the G-d of Israel. BOTH houses will return “weeping”and finally understanding each other.( Is 11:13)
    Israel will be united in the common faith: Torah plus Messiah.

    • Dear Soonet

      Shalom, and love in Jesus the Messiah.

      Do not make things to complicated. The Jews, whatever they are, will be gathered home to Zion is disbelief. This includes both Orthodox, religious and secular sons and daughters of Jacob.

      Ezekiel 36:31-32

      Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!

      The restoration of Israel is not done, because the Jewish people in diaspora deserves it, have gained it, or done anything great. The restoration is done on the account of the Holy name of God of Israel, Father, Son and Spirit. The restoration of Israel is fully done on account of a promise God have given their forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

      During the regathering, there will be people of all colors. Like in Egypt 3.500 years ago, God of the Bible did not separate the good, the bad and the ugly. He took them all across the Red Sea. The final separation will not be done by man. But by King Messiah. Amen.

  26. Question: Will the saved be raptured and taken to Jerusalem? What will happen in the “mean” time while they are being “transported” to Jerusalem?

    I thought they will be taken to the clouds and receive Jesus in there but then what after that?

    I do not think they will disappear in the air but angels will gather them.

    Will not be war then against Jerusalem? But is Jesus attack (or defend) Jerusalem, won’t that suppose to happen AFTER the millennium?

    • Dear Jose

      Shalom.

      Thanks for good questions.

      Jesus told His disciples that He could not tell them everything. How would they be able to understand messages about cars and air crafts? Luckily we do not know everything. And we do not need to know everything. The Bible says we will met the Lord in the air. Thats the rapture. I feel what happens next will surely be mind blowing, and beyond what a human mind is able to understand.

      True faith in Jesus is to trust Him.

      Let`s wait and watch.

  27. Hey, sorry for the long delay between my last comment and this one. I have two questions for you now, Ivarfjeld:

    1) You said that when Christ returns, there will be no difference between Jew and Gentile. Was this intentional? It would seem that the Bible says that, once a Jew and a Gentile become followers of the Messiah, there is no longer a distinction: the Gentile has been grafted into the vine of Abraham’s family, and the Jew has been grafted back into the same vine that he was previously removed from. (for not accepting the Messiah previously) Why do you say that this is future, if Galatians 3:28 is present?

    2) Why do use the term replacement theology? You seem to be aware of it’s inaccuracy, so why continue to use it? Most dispensationalists would call me a replacement theologian, but the term is frankly offensive, because I do not believe that Israel is replaced by the Church, I believe that Israel is enlarged by the Church, as promised in the Old Testament.

    • Joel.

      Shalom, and welcome back at any time.

      You wrote:

      I believe that Israel is enlarged by the Church, as promised in the Old Testament.

      My reply:

      I believe this. So I do not feel we disagree. I use the term replacement theology because it is a term used by Christian Zionists and others who stand by Israel. There is also a Prosperity Gospel, a term not used by the preachers of this twisted message distributed in the name of «Jesus».

  28. I believe Jesus came alright and will come again ….Problem is there was also a false Messiah that came. If you read and compare the gospels to each other there is a lot of contradictions in the gospel and that is because the AC came already and he has come again. Discerning the truth from the false takes some work but it can be done if you are willing to see. The deception is there in the bible in both the OT and NT. That is why you have 2 differing descriptions of the Last Supper. John’s account and the synoptic account. Both cannot be right unless there were 2 Jesus’s. The reason many people don’t believe in Jesus Christ is because of the differences. The coverup and the propaganda were alive and flourishing then as it is now. In the Old testament there are some similar controversies..that is because of men and a false god vs the True God.

  29. In answer to Who Killed Jesus Christ?
    Jesus Christ said in the gospel of John that he Laid down his own life:

    John 10:17-19 (King James Version)

    17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

    18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

    • Yes, that is in the scriptures that he “GAVE” his life, correct?
      And if I read right in my daily readings.. The apostles were JEWISH :D

  30. The Jewish people are COVENENTED. We have an EVERLASTING promise.

    Regarding Zion:
    ה יֵבֹשׁוּ, וְיִסֹּגוּ אָחוֹר– כֹּל, שֹׂנְאֵי צִיּוֹן. 5

    Let them be ashamed and turned backward, all they that hate Zion.

    “Zion- ism” is not a political movement- it was FORETOLD.

    • Themadjewess,
      Christians agree that God has an everlasting covenant with Israel; even so-called replacement theologians believe this. However, Christians disagree with each other (and probably with you) about who “Israel” really is.

  31. @ Joel: Christians disagree with each other (and probably with you) about who “Israel” really is.

    Israel, spiritually speaking to Christians is the church. To the Jews, it is their land again after a long exile. Christians believe that Jesus is the cornerstone of Zion, Jews believe that Zion is God, a spiritual thing as well. I know that the world believe it to be a ‘political movement’ I do NOT, for the word of God is FOREVER and God promised that he would bring his people back to their land after a long exile..as I stated.

    It also is a major sign of the end ages. Although I really am against ALL foreign policy and the Israeli govt, for the most part is pretty messed up, it is the people there that I love and support. I know many, and they are not as left wing Jews here in USA. They, especially the youth, are turning to God with their whole hearts. That is a ‘change I can believe in’

    • Shalom Yahshuah came to Israel, He was not sent to any other people other than the children of Israel. As it is written in:

      MATTHEW 10:5-6 / 15:24,

      (5) “THESE TWELVE YAHSHUAH SENT FORTH, AND COMMANDED THEM SAYING, GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE SAMARITANS ENTER YOU NOT: BUT RATHER GO TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.

      15:24 BUT HE ANSWERED AND SAID, I AM NOT SENT BUT UNTO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.”

      It doesn’t get any clearer than that. The reason he was sent by the father to the lost sheep of Israel is because by this time period (“1st century CE) the Israelites were heavily involved into all kinds of corrupt forms of worship, from the temple priest to the average Israelite, they as a nation of people had lost the way of salvation. This wasn’t a good thing at all, since they are the chosen priest of Yah.

      Yahshuah had to come from on high to teach them the correct way of worship and redirect them to the path of peace and righteousness. He never came to start a new religion called Christianity. He came to his own to save them from their sins (john1:11 Matthew 1:21), And the way to save them from sinning was to show them the correct way to worship, just as Moses had taught them.

      • Dear Alsteele

        Shalom, and welcome to this site.

        You wrote:

        Yahshuah had to come from on high to teach them the correct way of worship and redirect them to the path of peace and righteousness. He never came to start a new religion called Christianity. He came to his own to save them from their sins.

        My reply:

        I agree that Jesus did not come to start a new religion. He can to save the people of Israel from their sins. But Jesus did not die only for the Jewish nation. He came to gather all lost sheep of His creation, and make us one people.

        All my blessings have come out from the Jewish people.

        John 11:50-52 
        You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
        He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

        (end of scripture)

        I agree that there is no “J” in Hebrew. But in Norwegian we do not use the Hebrew alphabet and letters. Master Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of Israel, is not a legalistic God, that will throw into the fire of Hell all who can not pronounce His name correctly in Hebrew. I am sure He do not mind being called by a Norwegian voice.

  32. Yes, we,the church,are Israel(grafted in). The present state/government in the Middle East/Palastine is as ungodly as it was at the time of Christ. They are looking for a military leader as their savior.

    • Dear Thomas.

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      Are the Church Israel?

      Let see what the scripture says.

      Genesis 32:28
      Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

      Israel is a man. Jacob. Are you Jacob?

      Exodus 19:6

      
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

      Israel is a kingdom of priest, a holy nation. When did you join this Kingdom of priest? When did the “Church” become a nation?

      Acts 1:6
      So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

      The students of Jesus had already lost the Kingdom (s). (There were two, Israel and Judea). Because they were under Roman occupation when Jesus walked on Earth.

      I guess the Church has never ended the “Roman” occupation?

      In fact, in 325 A.D the Church and the Roman Empire merged, and came under the yoke of the Pope in Rome.

      Jeremiah 31:10
      “Hear the word of the LORD, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’

      Israel was scattered. Have you been scattered? And have you been “gathered”? Israel has. Look at the Jews in the diaspora, and their restoration in Israel in 1948. The greatest miracle of our modern times.

      Dearest Thomas:

      As you see, “replacement theology” in a big lie. Made up by the Romans, under the Pope in Rome. They claim they are “Israel”, the true Jews. But that makes them nothing but a synagogue of Satan.

      Paul said we, gentiles saved sinners have been grafted. We (believers, not the Church) are the new Israel of God.

      We have enlarged Israel, not replaced her. What has been grafted has joined Israel. Grafted and replaced are the radical opposites.

  33. Ivarfjeld;
    1) The Church is Israel- Israel, believers, the Church… all are the same thing, whether the members are physically descended from Abraham or not. Did Jews have an advantage? Yes, primarily because they had easier access to scripture, (Romans 3:2) but there is no longer any real difference. (Galatians 3:28) Jews who believe in Jesus the Messiah are part of Israel, and Gentiles who trust in the Jewish Messiah are now part of Israel as well; this is the same thing as saying that Jews who believe in Jesus the Messiah are part of the Church, and Gentiles who trust in the Jewish Messiah are now also part of the Church. The Church is nothing more or less than the gathering of God’s people, Israel; the Bible refers to Israel as Christ’s bride, and to the Church as Christ’s bride. Either they are one and the same, or my Messiah is a polygamist.

    2) Ivarfjeld, you seem to accuse Thomas of replacement theology. He has made no indication here that he believes Israel has been replaced. All he said was that the Church is Israel.

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, and welcome back with a fresh comment.

      That the Church is Israel, is not even a half-truth. Let see what the scriptures say:

      1. Israel is the man, Jacob. Israel had 12 sons, each of them developed into 12 tribes of the people we call “Israel”.

      2. Jesus the Messiah came from the Israeli tribe of Judah.

      3. The Kingdom of Israel is an ancient Kingdom, that Jesus promised to restore. Not at His first coming, when He left Israel occupied by the Roman Empire. But surely just before His second coming. Jesus in not the Bishop of Rome. He is the King of the Jews.

      4. The nation of Israel can never be the Church. Because the Church is not a nation, but living saints, believers who are scattered and prosecuted in all the nations on Planet Earth.

      5. The grafted believers of Jesus the Messiah, is what Paul calls the new Israel of God. But if they do not believe they are grafted, they are not the enlarged Israel, the Bible tells us will come with the faith in Jesus the Messiah.

      Blessings to all my readers.

      • 1. Israel refers to the man, yes, and to his descendants. All believers in the Messiah are spiritually his descendants; that is what it means to be grafted into Israel.

        2. Jesus was a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. However, one of the things that this Jesus said was that God could raise up children of Abraham from rocks. One of the implications of this is that being a true descendant of Abraham does not depend upon having come from him by natural means. Paul spends extensive time talking about this in Romans.

        3. Israel can refer to the historical nation, yes, but that’s not the *real* Israel. The real Israel is God’s remnant, Christ’s bride, the Redeemed, the Believers, the Chosen, the Church, the People of God, the Elect, the Chosen Nation, etc.

        4. The true Israel is one and the same as the true Church. As I have already mentioned, the Bible refers to Israel as the Bride of Christ. The Bible also refers to the Church as the Bride of Christ. There are only three possible interpretations of this: 1) Christ divorced either Israel or the Church at some point in time. 2) Christ is a polygamist. 3) The true Israel and the true Church are one and the same.

        5. Can you name a Bible reference where the term “new Israel” is used? I can not think of one off the top of my head.

      • Dear Joel.

        Shalom.

        You are right on pkt. 5. But in Gal 6:14-16: The Israel of God, is the “new” creation. Of both the circumcision (The Jews) and the uncircumcision (non Jews). Grafted into the Jewish faith of God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we are all one people. We as pagans have been grafted in by Jesus. Jesus is not the replacement, but the cap stone. He holds the building together.

        More verses on Israel.

        Acts 13:23
        “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

        The Jewish nation birthed Jesus, before the Church was formed. He came to His own people.

        Romans 11:26
        And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

        Are you Jacob? If you claim to be Jacob, show me. Are you home in Zion? Have you been gathered home, obeying the prophetic Words of a restoration of Israel?

    • The story of Jacob marrying The two dauthers of Laban, is a story Of spiritual truths concerning this, I believe. Laban is a picture of Satan, Jacob ( Jesus Christ ) loved the youngest (a picture of Israel) but ended up with the eldest ( The messiah believing gentile christians ). But the story does not end there. Jesus will finally also marry his first love ( Israel ) in the endtime. I believe God allowed this polygamistic marriage to foretell what will happen in The future. This is why Paul also believed The jews in The end will be united with their Messiah who have paid The price to win Them as His bride, and deliver them from their work and hardship under Laban (Satan).

  34. Ivarfjeld,
    “Church” is a comparatively new word, but it merely refers to the gathering (or congregation) of God’s one true people: true Israel. I support modern “Israel” because they are surrounded by people who unjustly wish to kill them; I support the modern nation “Israel,” but they are not truly Israel. Some citizens of modern political Israel are true Israelites, of course, but the nation as a whole is not composed of followers of God. They have been broken off from the tree. It is my hope and faith that many of them would and will be grafted back into the tree, but until that happens, they cannot be called true Israel.

    Am I Jacob? You have already agreed that I am part of Israel, so I am no longer sure what you mean. Could you clarify the question?

    Also, would you mind responding to the fact that the Bible describes both Israel and the Church as the bride of Christ?

    In Christ, the true Messiah and only savior of souls,
    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      Church in Greek is Ecclesia. The translation of this word would be: “She who prepares her self to go”. Jesus sends people. He do not tell them to stay put. So a gathering that do not “go” is not a Church, but a religious club.

      Are you Jacob?

      If so, go and get circumcised. I am not Jacob, but a former Viking grafted into the wine, by Jesus of Nazareth. I am a spiritual child of God of the Bible. Not one of the chosen natural 12 tribes of Israel. That’s why I am not re-gathered, and back home in Zion, Eretz Israel.

      It is true that there is a lot of ungodly people inside the state of Israel. And so are there among the people claiming to belong to the “ecclesia”, who claim they are saved by the Jewish Messiah.

      If they are saved: Obey the commands of God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Go, and do the will of your Father God in Heaven.

      A bad three can not bear good fruits. On the fruits, we can recognize who is saved, and who is not. God is able to re-graft the natural branches that has been cut off. But lukewarm people….

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      but the nation as a whole is not composed of followers of God.

      My reply:

      There has never been such a nation. That is not the purpose of the nation of Israel. It is their homeland, with all kinds of people. As an example: God took the Hebrews out of Egypt. All of them. Good and bad alike.

      Please support the Jewish homeland, the state of Israel.

  35. Ivarfjeld,

    I am becoming convinced that you aren’t even reading what I say; at the very least, you aren’t responding to what I say. This is not really honest. If you simply don’t have time to read and properly respond, please say so, and we can discontinue the conversation.

    You are correct in saying that the church is sent. Every member of God’s church is a missionary, living a lifestyle of evangelism.
    However, all the study I have ever done on the word “ekklesia” would indicate the the word itself does not refer directly to a group of people who are sent out, but rather to a group who are called out; a meeting or gathering, if you will. I suggest that you go back an study the word again.

    Yes, I am a part of Israel, a partaker in the line of Jacob. I am in *exactly* the same standing as any Jewish believer in the Messiah; do not command God’s followers, whether Jew or Gentile, to go back to the ceremonial old covenant law, lest you fall in the camp of the Judaizers.

    There *has* been such a nation. There has *always* been a remnant of this nation, even if it is only a few thousand men who refuse to bow to Baal.

    I have already said that I do support the modern nation Israel. My support, however, is essentially the same level as it would be for any other race that found themselves in the same political and military situation.

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, I do read your comments. I am sorry, that you fell this way.

      I never said that we should go back to the “ceremonial old covenant law”.

      But as Jesus do, I warn against lawlessness. That is to delete the Law, and think that “Jesus” has made His Fathers promises null and void. Let me remember that Jesus said that He and His Father are One. And that those who love Him, will obey His commandments.

      Looking at Israel as you will look at statehood’s like Burma or Paraguay, is saying that God has regretted his election of the Jewish people. The regathering of the Jews home in Zion, is a political event that has nothing to do with their election, and the everlasting promises given to the Jewish people in the Bible. The Jewish people are just like any other people, which we should have some compassion on.

      This is not the will of the Father. This is a fatal mistake of deception. The Jews are the apple of His eye. Those who touch them, pull their finger where they will be badly burnt. All nations that harms the Jewish people will be judged sternly. Just read the book of the Prophet Joel.

      Joel 3:2
      I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

  36. Ivarfjeld,

    1) If you are reading my statements, (and I will take you at your word that you are, indeed, doing so) then why do you not interact with my chief arguments?

    2) Demanding circumcision for those who are of Jacob is a return to the law. You are correct in saying that we must avoid lawlessness (I.E., we must flee immorality) but that does not mean that we, or anyone else, is still bound by the law. The law has been fulfilled.

    3) The ethnic Jews are not the apple of God’s eye. Israel is the apple of God’s eye, and the modern political Jewish nation is not Israel. For a physical, ethnic Jew to be a member of Israel, they must be a follower of the Lord, and sadly, that is quite rare, both in Jews who don’t concern themselves with religion and in those who do. Our central disagreement is that, when you read words like “Israel,” “Jerusalem,” “My people,” etc., you assume that the Bible is talking about the physical, ethnic, or political people or places. I am saying that that is deeply wrong.

    (Incidentally, you said “Just read the book of the Prophet Joel.” I did.)

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom, and thanks for more comments and questions.

      2. Demanding circumcision: This is an eternal covenant between God and His people from the book of Genesis. Circumcision is not a temporarily solution to be abolished. The book of Acts explains that it is not mandatory for gentiles to be circumcised. The Apostles never said the Jews should stop doing what God had established as a covenant, long time before the Law of Moses was given.

      Jesus him self was circumcised. Paul circumcised Timothy, after Jesus had risen. Timothy was half-Jewish.

      3. Returning to the Law of Moses.

      The Old Testament is much more than the Law of Moses. And Jesus did not come to change the law, but to establish a New Covenant in His blood. The only thing He replaced, was the need for blood sacrifices as a tool for redemption for sins.

      If you feel its to difficult to live under the moral code of the Law of Moses, try to live under the moral code of The sermon of the Mount.

      I guess all of us will end our life on Earth without limbs. To follow Jesus is not lawlessness. He has given us a moral code, that hardly any human will be able to follow.

      The Law (s) exposes both Jews and gentiles as sinners, in need of being saved by Him. That is why people have been saved by mercy and grace, Only. Always. From the beginning of Genesis to the end of the book of Revelation.

      4. Is the Church Israel? Than who is dividing His land? Where is the valley the prophet Joel is talking about? I guess between the second and third rod inside a Roman Catholic Church?

  37. To Ivarfjeld,

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you wrote that you believe we are already in the tribulation period. But the bible states for the tribulation to begin, the Antichrist will have signed a 7 year peace treaty.

    Daniel 9:27
    27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ’seven.’ In the middle of the ’seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. “

    And the tribulation could not already be in progress, because Jesus Christ first has to rapture his believers.

    Matthew 24:30-36
    “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    God Bless.

  38. Dear Ivarfjeld,

    thank you for the very interesting article “did the Jews kill their own Messiah?”
    I translated it and added some to it in Dutch…
    That is so true, the fact that not the Jews killed Yeshua, but we all did, as a matter of fact! We are the reason that He layed down His life and died for our sins!

    I am Messianic btw, I also went to Israel some times and also visited Messianic congregations there!
    You are alos welcome to visit my weblog/forum, but it is mostly in dutch, sometimes originally in english….

    Shalom, Ha Shem yevarechecha

    Jasmijn

    • Dear Jasmijn.

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      Thanks for blessings me. May Jesus the Messiah always guide you. In specially in regards to Jews who do not know Him. May they all come to know Him by His name in Hebrew, Y’shua. He is the King of Kings.

      • Dear Ivarfjeld…

        Thanks for your reply! Also thanks for your blessing to me…

        I tranlated this article and also, ‘People of the book’….
        May Jesus/Yeshua always guide you!

        And amen, may they all come to know Him by His name Y’shua…. according to Rom. 11… He will:-))))

        Shalom we ahava, Jasmijn

  39. Shalom who are you calling jews. Are you talking about Jews of today leaving in Israel or the hebrew-Israelites of the bible. Hebrews-Israelites did not call there self jews. J was not in hebrew, greek, or latin. J got added in 1637 to the english alphabet.
    Now who cares who kill him. Yah sent Yahushua to the Israelites for salvation. He gave mercy to us the Israelites. Matt.10:5-6, Matt.15:24 The reason he was sent by the father to the lost sheep of Israel is because by this time period 1st century CE the Israelites were heavily involved into all kinds of corrupt forms of worship, from the temple priest to the average Israelite, they as a nation of people had lost the way of salvation.
    Yahshuah had to come from on high to teach them the correct way of worship and redirect them to the path of peace and righteousness. He never came to start a new religion called Christianity. He came to his own to save them from their sins (john1:11 Matthew 1:21), And the way to save them from sinning was to show them the correct way to worship, just as Moses had taught them.
    The only reason why the Romans had the upper hand over Israel was because we had turned our backs on Yah. So the curses in DEUT 28 and Lev 26: were being manifested and the only way to stop them is to turn from breaking the laws.
    The chosen people were chosen for one major reason and that is to bring the rest of the sons of Adam into the truth of YHWH (John 4:22, Acts 13:47). The Israelites are not the only ones to gain salvation, but it was and is our job to teach the world the truth about the heavenly father and his laws.
    This is the reason all the apostles, prophets and The Messiah were Hebrew Israelites. This is also why in Acts 10:, the angel of Yah told Cornelius the Italian to go to Peter the Hebrew Israelite, and that he would tell him what he ought to do. Peter taught Cornelius the full law of Yah (acts 10:33). This angel that told Cornelius to go to Peter could have taught him the law, all angels know the laws of Yah, but he didn’t because it is the job of Israel to teach the world the ways of the Most High. So this angel sent Cornelius to Israel to learn the law.

    EXODUS 19:6 “AND YOU SHALL BE UNTO ME A KINGDOM OF PRIEST AND AN HOLY NATION. THESE ARE THE WORDS WHICH YOU SHALL SPEAK UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL

    YAH said he would make Israel a kingdom of priests, the job of a priest is to minister. If you’re a nation of priests, who are you going to minister to? It wouldn’t be to your fellow country men because they are also priest. Israel was going to be priest unto the world, and teach the world the commandments and laws of the creator. This was and still is the original plan.

  40. I like everyone opinion you to Ivarfjeld shalom brother. Too everyone I not a racist. I state the fact with Scripture. Yes Ivarfjeld everyone can receive salvation with Yah with the son Yahushua.

    Edited. (Editor).

    The next long message will be spam.

    • Dear Alsteele.

      Shalom.

      Jesus loves you. He came and died in your place, and took your penalty on the cross in Jerusalem. If you are a Child of God, please go not defame and harm the Jewish people. We who are not Jewish by birth, have been grafted into the Jewish faith by the Messiah.

  41. Why is there so much confusion about something so simple? Men, have caused confusion. The scriptures say that “God is not the author of conusion, but of peace” Men with their egos and flatering titles have onced turned the truth into nothing but a distorsion. Does not the scripture also say” lean not upon your own understanding” Remember that all things regarding the mystery of the Gospel of Christ has been revealed. We can understand it by just reading the scriptures(ephesians 3)

  42. Peace be with You,
    As prophetized, the Jews would kill their Messiah. It is NOT supposed to be a fault finding mission, but a fulfillment of the prophecy as the Lord was to be the “perfect sacrifice” for the forgiveness of sins for ALL. Only uneducated individuals think that the Jewish people are supposed to be “blamed” for this. We ALL required Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. So I will repeat myself again and say “no finger pointing is intended,…it was only the fulfillment of prophecy”. Please remember what Jesus told the Apostles about His death being the attonment of the sins of many.
    It is NOT about blaming Jewish people. Thank you. God Bless.

    • Dear Dawna

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      You wrote:

      As prophetized, the Jews would kill their Messiah.

      My reply:

      This is a message from the bottomless pit, told to you by a demon. The Messiah was not “killed” by the Jews. The Messiah gave up His life for free, just to take it back. There is no dead body, and no crime committed by the Jews. The Messiah Jesus is alive.

      Can you read: JESUS IS ALIVE……

      The Italian Roman soldiers who crucified Jesus, were not Jews. The Governor and General who had the power to crucify Him, was the head of an occupied colony under the Emperor of Rome.

      Dawna: You have been deceived by Satan, who has made you an enemy of God. You are a child of the devil, and need to repent if you are going to escape the fire of Hell.

      Please remember my warning, and do something about it.

      • Ivar, As I’m reading recent and older posts in this thread, I can hardly believe what you said to this woman Dawna. Maybe I missed something that she said that warrants being spoken to like this? You call her any enemy of God. You tell her she is a child of the devil and needs to repent if she is going to escape the fire of Hell!? You did all this cursing and judging to a woman because she said it was Jews who killed Jesus? And you say that Jesus didn’t die?

        Jesus did die. Jesus died for the sins of the world. And Jesus rose from the dead. And men of Israel (Jews) did put Jesus to death, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles).

        Acts 2:22-24 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[a] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

        I don’t think you should ever, for any reason talk to people like the way you did to this woman. Please know that I’m telling you this out of love.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom..

        Your wrote:

        You did all this cursing and judging to a woman because she said it was Jews who killed Jesus?

        My reply:

        You have to show me his dead body. At least a skull, or some bones. If you can not, than please stop writing that someone “killed” Jesus. At least not the “Jews”. The Jewish Messiah gave up His life for free, just to take it back. As Gloria wrote: Jesus is alive. We do not serve a dead Messiah.

        And since you did not kill Kennedy, I guess neither did the “Americans”. So let it be me who “killed” Jesus. It was my sins that drove Him to the cross, because He loved me. And your sins, and also the sins of the Jews.

      • Victoria,

        With all due respect, I’m re-reading what Ivar wrote and what did he say that was wrong? Jesus did die BUT is alive forever, AND IS COMING.

        And to Dawna, Ivar wrote: “You have been deceived by Satan, who has made you an enemy of God. You are a child of the devil, and need to repent if you are going to escape the fire of Hell.”

        How many people in this world that we live in now are being deceived by Satan? I had a man grab my hand and tell me he could tell my future and that he is from God. I told him he served the devil, because God would never use “a psychic” (and this is what he called himself)and this man never gave Glory to God in anything.

        There are people out there who clearly know what Christ offers and still choose to serve satan. We can reach those people all Glory to Christ first, but sometimes a straight forward approach is needed.

        There was a poster here a few weeks back, who we were discussing about the rapture, I think if I remember correctly, wished me death. As far as I know, he’s never repented, and I would call this more than cursing someone.

        All I’m saying is that Ivar never said anything wrong. ivar told the truth, and he did not “curse” this woman.

        God Bless you Victoria.

        Gloria

      • Ivar said:
        “You have to show me his dead body. At least a skull, or some bones. If you can not, than please stop writing that someone “killed” Jesus.”

        My Comment: Show you a skull or a dead body? You remind me now of the Catholics.
        I showed you the Holy Word of God in the Bible, that Jesus was “put to death.” You shouldn’t play with the Word and the Truth. Also, if you speak the way you do about no one killed Jesus…then you cause confusion to the Muslims – who say Jesus was not killed.

        Ivar said:
        “At least not the “Jews”. The Jewish Messiah gave up His life for free, just to take it back”

        My Comment:
        Of course Jesus letting people kill him was part of the plan of salvation, but Jesus was still killed.

        Ivar said:
        “And since you did not kill Kennedy, I guess neither did the “Americans”. So let it be me who “killed” Jesus. It was my sins that drove Him to the cross, because He loved me. And your sins, and also the sins of the Jews.”

        My Comment:
        I guess you would argue with the apostle Peter too? Because apostle Peter said to the “men of Israel” that they “put him to death,” with the help of “wicked men.”
        Stick with what the Bible says, it has the very words of God.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        You are playing with words.

        Jesus died, Jesus rose from the grave, Jesus is alive.

        People who give up their life for free, are not “killed” or “murdered”. No one has “killed” a man who is alive. Your claim that Jesus was “killed”, will make both the judge and jury laugh. Such a false claim against the “Jews” is a complete falsehood. Its antisemitic to its core.

        The Papists called the Jews “Christ killers”. What idiots.

      • Gloria said:
        “With all due respect, I’m re-reading what Ivar wrote and what did he say that was wrong? Jesus did die BUT is alive forever, AND IS COMING.”

        My Comment:
        I speak what the word of God says, that Jesus was put to death. Ivar speaks some kind of fear and misunderstanding stuff – he is catering to people who hate the Jews.
        I gave biblical words that went ignored by Ivar.

        Gloria said:
        “And to Dawna, Ivar wrote: “You have been deceived by Satan, who has made you an enemy of God. You are a child of the devil, and need to repent if you are going to escape the fire of Hell.”
        How many people in this world that we live in now are being deceived by Satan?”

        My Comment:
        Ivar said horrible things to a person who might very well be a child of God. And if Ivar said those horrible things to her based on her little reply here – then that is doubly wrong of him. He does not know that woman well enough to say those things to her. Especially a woman who said nothing wrong in her comment. She even states that Jesus died for all.

        Gloria said:
        “I had a man grab my hand and tell me he could tell my future and that he is from God. I told him he served the devil, because God would never use “a psychic” (and this is what he called himself)and this man never gave Glory to God in anything.”

        My Comment:
        You said in another post that your denomination believes in prophecies. I don’t know why what that man said is so offensive to you. I guess he can only say that to you and “prophecy” is if he is a member of your denomination? Also, what that man did is not the same as what the woman Dawna said.

        Gloria said:
        “There are people out there who clearly know what Christ offers and still choose to serve satan. We can reach those people all Glory to Christ first, but sometimes a straight forward approach is needed.”

        My comment:
        You and Ivar have no right to tell people some of the things you say. You both have proved that you are not righteous judges.

        Gloria said:
        “There was a poster here a few weeks back, who we were discussing about the rapture, I think if I remember correctly, wished me death. As far as I know, he’s never repented, and I would call this more than cursing someone.”

        My Comment:
        What Ivar said to a woman who said nothing wrong here, and whom could very well be a child of God – Ivar said worse then that poster you speak of. To tell a child of God they are deceived and serving the devil and that she will burn in hell if she doesn’t repent from what Ivar said was a sin….that is wrong.

        I said I was telling Ivar in love. I hope that that is the way Ivar will receive all this dialog.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        To blame the Americans for killing Kennedy is wrong.

        To blame the Indians for Killing Mahatma Gandhi is wrong.

        To blame the “Jews” for killing Jesus is wrong.

        Its an antisemitic claim, that blames a whole people for what they did not do. And the most funny part. While Kennedy and Gandhi is dead. Jesus is alive.

        Funny Victoria, that you do not see that such a false claim against the Jews are coming from Demons down in the pit. People who accuse the Jews for “Killing Christ” are surely children of the devil.

      • Ivar said:
        “To blame the Americans for killing Kennedy is wrong.

        To blame the Indians for Killing Mahatma Gandhi is wrong.

        To blame the “Jews” for killing Jesus is wrong.

        Its an antisemitic claim, that blames a whole people for what they did not do. And the most funny part. While Kennedy and Gandhi is dead. Jesus is alive.

        Funny Victoria, that you do not see that such a false claim against the Jews are coming from Demons down in the pit. People who accuse the Jews for “Killing Christ” is surely children of the devil.”

        My Comment:
        No one said “all” the Jews killed Jesus. I gave you scripture of the Truth, but you ignore it and preach to the unstable. Stick to the Truth, and let the unstable go about their own way.

        Israelite men, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles) put Jesus to death.
        That’s the Word of God.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        I will take the blame. It was because of my sins, Jesus gave up His life. He died on the cross. But the good news is, that he rose from the grave. Jesus is alive.

        Are you happy now?

      • Dear all readers.

        Shalom.

        1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 (Amplified Bible)

        For you, brethren, became imitators of the assemblies (churches) of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judea, for you too have suffered the same kind of treatment from your own fellow countrymen as they did [who were persecuted at the hands] of the Jews,

        Who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and harassed and drove us out, and continue to make themselves hateful and offensive to God and to show themselves foes of all men.

        (end of scripture)

        Is the Apostles Paul explaining to us that the “Jews” killed Jesus?

        I hope we can agree, that Paul did not accuse the “Jews” as a people, for “killing” Jesus. The “Jews” Paul is talking to the Christians in Greece about, are the Temple authority in Jerusalem. The High Priest, and His mob. They (plural) are the foes of all men.

        If the High Priest had accepted Pilot’s offer to release Jesus, our Messiah had not died on the cross, and we all would have died in our sins. That would have been a total failure, since the death and resurrection of our Master was a well planed act of God Him self.

        So that neither Jews nor gentiles would die in their sins, and perish. ALL men can be saved by believing that God the Son has paid in full for all sins.

        So the accusation against the “Jews” for killing Jesus, must be sent to God the Father. Put him for trial if you like, and if that will make you happy.

        John 11:50-52

        You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

        He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

      • Ivar said:
        “I will take the blame. It was because of my sins, Jesus gave up His life. He died on the cross. But the good news is, that he rose from the grave. Jesus is alive.
        Are you happy now?”

        I’m speaking biblically. Yes Jesus died for the sins of the world. And according to the Bible, fellow Israelites of Peter, with the help of wicked men, put Jesus to death by nailing him to the cross.
        You did not put Jesus to death by nailing him to the cross.
        Again, I quote what Peter says, but you still don’t accept it.
        The Bible doesn’t say “Ivar with the help of wicked men put Jesus to death by nailing him to the cross.”

        Read Acts 2:22-24. And I pray you are careful what you say to people, and careful how you judge.

      • Victoria,

        Your comment: You said in another post that your denomination believes in prophecies. I don’t know why what that man said is so offensive to you. I guess he can only say that to you and “prophecy” is if he is a member of your denomination? Also, what that man did is not the same as what the woman Dawna said.

        My Comment: That man told me that he was psychic. Psychics are a form of witch craft. Yet, you do not see what he told me was wrong? Also he stated I can tell you the future, and gave no Glory to God. When I told him, you are from Satan, he didn’t even object.

        Now you mix what I told you with my Pentecostal Christianity. I don’t even know if I have words to reply to you. It’s a bit insulting, but hey as a Pentecostal Christian I’ve been called worse, and still pray for everyone. Did you know that there are over hundreds of prophecies in the bible that have not passed?

        Your Comment: You and Ivar have no right to tell people some of the things you say. You both have proved that you are not righteous judges.

        My Comment: I am not righteous, nor will I ever judge. I am a nobody. But I speak the truth. And I pray for everyone to see the truth that is Christ. Sometimes you have to be straight forward with people, so they could see that what they are doing is wrong. I don’t judge their sins, but if I have to say in the eyes of God what you are doing is wrong, I will say it, in hopes that they will realize that Christ is everything.

        God Bless.

        Gloria

  43. Because you know what people of the book are, i think you should know that Yashua didn’t die. also people of the book are not just them but anyone who has lost the original message and chooses verses in the Scripture by not using casting of lots to open a verse to read.

  44. I love the Jews . Because they are God’s chosen children and He is all so a Jew . That is why i love Him so much . The Jews is one of the country’s who are the biggest believer’s in the world . And God will never forsake them because He love them to much .

  45. Hi everyone,

    I just sat here and went top to bottom on this whole page. I am amazed to see so much spiritual discussion, it is a blessing. Thank you ivarfjeld for hosting such a spiritually charged page.

    I believe it is most important to do our best individually in following what the Bible tells us. That means deep detailed studying of the scripture, frequently and open-mindedly.

    I hope that people don’t just read what is written here, or anywhere for that matter, by the hands of men and immediately count information as factual and from the mouth of G-d. Instead, I hope that people would search the scripture themselves and test each statement’s congruency with the infallible Word of the L-rd.

    My comment is inspired by the last comment I see on this page, to Phillip (I hope you see this and/or seek the Word thoroughly):

    Read Ezekiel 9 in it’s fullness. We don’t want to end up without that “mark”! In Revelation 7:1-3, it’s referred to as a “Seal of G-d”. G-d obviously has no problem with exacting his disposition, vengeance is the L-rd’s after all. We as people, followers and believers just have to figure out what exactly he approves of, and do THAT. Amen.

  46. Is the book of Ruth not a picture for us? Ruth ( the church ) says to Naomi ( Israel ) ‘your God will be my God and your people my people’, ruth sticks with Naaomi returns to the land and Naomi leads Ruth to Boaz ( Jesus ) Ruth marries Boaz and so it goes on.

    • Sure, there are similarities there,tommy3lions, but, just to be clear, the analogy breaks down fairly quickly. After all, Ruth is the one that marries Boaz, not Naomi, and the Bible clearly treats both Israel and the Church as the one bride of Christ.
      God Bless,
      Joel

      • Thanks Joel, amazing similarities but your conclusion makes sense with the one bride.
        Peace be with you mate

      • Dear Tommy3lions.

        Shalom.

        Is Israel the bride of Christ?

        Which of them?

        1. The man Israel, the father of the 12 tribes
        2. The 12 tribes, we call the people of Israel?
        3. The state of Israel, a secular state in the Middle East.

        If the answer is 2 or 3:

        Do you also include corrupt Israeli politicians, drug dealers and child abuser’s in the Israeli society as “The bride of Christ”?

  47. Calm down mate, I only said ‘your conclusion makes sense with one bride’ as there is only one bride. I thought this was a friendly discussion. Personally mate your knowledge and wisdom is far superior to mine and I yield to it, I think the bride of Christ is the church, I’m a bit lost where your coming from on the subject of child abusers and drug dealers in Israeli society as I never mentioned them.

    • Dear Tommy3lions.

      Shalom.

      My BP did not go high because of your comment.

      There is no doubt that Israel is loved by Jesus, and they are still His chosen people. But chosen does not include automatic salvation. Jews will face the same judgment as all of us. Jews who do not believe in the Messiah, will die in their sins. Those are surely not “the bride of Christ”.

  48. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    Shalom.
    You said:
    “Is Israel the bride of Christ?
    Which of them?
    1. The man Israel, the father of the 12 tribes
    2. The 12 tribes, we call the people of Israel?
    3. The state of Israel, a secular state in the Middle East?”

    The answer is number 4, the remnant of faithful that God will raise up in restoration. They are the people like Boaz in the time of the Judges, all the way down to Simeon in the time of Christ.
    I agree with you, ivarfjeld, that “which of them [Israels]” is the question, but you haven’t listed all of the possible answers.
    For anyone who doubts that Israel is called the Bride, see the entire book of Hosea, (especially 2:16) as well as Revelation 21, where you should pay special attention to verse 2 (New Jerusalem is the one adorned as a Bride) as well as verses 9-14, which indicate that the Bride is new Jerusalem, which, by the way, has the names of the twelve tribes as well as the names of the twelve apostles written on it.

    All of this, of course, is not to say that I don’t believe that the Church is the bride. I do. Paul is very clear that the Church is the bride of Christ.
    If, however, the Bible says that Israel (one of the groups that the name can refer to, that is) is the Bride, and is also very clear that the Church is the Bride, then, (assuming we all hold to the truthfulness of the Bible) that leaves us with two (and only two) options:
    1) Christ is a polygamist.
    2) Israel and the Church are the same entity, stretching back into the Old Testament and forward into eternity.

    Peace,
    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      Its good that you are mentioning Boaz. I believe He was saved, saved by grace alone. He was covered by the blood sacrificed by the temple priests.

      But what about the people of Israel, today. Do you make the blood of Jesus null and void, by claiming they can be saved, without believing in the Messiah?

  49. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    Boaz was saved, as is anyone at any point in history, by grace alone, despite living at a time when the people of Israel were not following the prescriptions of the law given through Moses. The grace was purchased by the death of Christ, and given through faith, even for those in the past. (See Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 10:3-10, and Galatians 3:21-29)

    Peace,
    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      The sins of Boaz was covered by the blood offered by Temple Priests in Jerusalem. He was saved by grace alone.

      God promised to give the Jews a New and much better covenant, where He him self was going to solve the problems of sin once and for all.

      Hebrews 7:27
      Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

      Hebrews 9:14
      How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

      (end of scripture)

      There is no longer any other blood than the blood of Jesus, that take away guilt from sins, and save man. Jews who feel they do not need the blood of Jesus, will die in their sins and perish. Like all other people who reject Him.

      John 8:24
      I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

      (end of scripture)

      Blood of rams, goats and chickens can not longer save anyone. Only the blood of the lamb of God can save man. He is the King of the Jews. Only if they accept His Kingship He will save them.

      Salvation by grace alone, is now found in Jesus the Messiah alone.

  50. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    We seem agree that all who are saved are saved only through the grace of almighty God, come in the flesh as the Messiah, Jesus. I, however, am trying to make two clarifications on what this means and includes, to which you disagree.

    The first is simple: Being saved, no matter who or when you are, is synonymous with being a member of the true Israel, being a part of the bride of Christ, being a part of the Church, and being a saint. They are all different aspects of the same thing. As support for this, I offer the passages already cited, including the book of Hosea and Revelation 21, to which I would add Romans 11 for further illumination.

    The second is slightly more complex: The ceremonial sacrifices prescribed in the law of God given through Moses could never truly, permanently deal with sin. (Hebrews 10:4) They were a part of the law, and the law was never intended to save. (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3) When Jesus came, he did not take away another way of being saved, and provide a new, better way. He provided a way, while apart from his sacrifice there never was, or will be. That is why Paul can speak of Abraham being saved through his faith in exactly the same way that he speaks of people being saved by the Christ’s work. (See Romans 4:1-12, Ephesians 2:8-9)

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      I feel what you are trying to say is, that salvation by the blood of Jesus do have retrospective effects. That His blood will wake up sleepers like Abraham and Boaz, and let them enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

      The answer is no.

      The blood of Jesus was shed at the fullness of time, and replaced the existing system of blood offerings that took away the guilt of sins. Abraham and Boaz was saved by grace, and cleansed by the blood offerings of rams and bulls. The Old Covenant of blood offerings was only in place up up to the coming of the Messiah. Abraham was allowed to see His future coming, and rejoiced.

      The Old blood offerings was not the final covenant, and was less than perfect, because it was depending on an act of sinful men. Now God acted. After the death and resurrection of the Messiah, men only needs to believe in Him. That is why the New Covenant is a better covenant, and the old was only a shadow of things to come. The Old Covenant of blood offerings, has been made null and void by the blood of the Lamb, and has passed away.

      Yesterday, I met a religious Jewish lady that seems to have a good heart. She is into Kabbalah, and says there is no Hell, and no Heaven after death. Heaven and Hell is found on Earth in this life.

      Is this lady also a part of “the true Israel?”. Is she the “bride of Christ”?

      If so. What a fool I am, trying to tell her about salvation in Yeshua only. There was no need for Him to come to Earth and die on the cross, if this lady can be saved by her Jewish philosophy.

      The Church has not replaced Israel. God of the Bible and His Son, do still work through Israel. But a Jew can not be saved by rejecting the only salvation there is. And that is the blood of the Lamb of God.

      • Ivar said:
        “I feel what you are trying to say is, that salvation by the blood of Jesus do have retrospective effects. That His blood will wake up sleepers like Abraham and Boaz, and let them enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
        The answer is no.”

        My Comment:
        We are made perfect by our faith in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11:39-40—is about the Old Testament saints and righteous people who did not get to know Jesus and the gospel until he was revealed, when he was revealed. Jesus and salvation was a mystery. We have in the New Testament the mystery revealed. That’s why Abraham waited to see Jesus’ day, Abraham saw it and was glad. That’s why Jesus preached to those who were dead. That’s why Hebrews 12:23 says we come to heaven where God is….and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect.
        We are made perfect by Jesus’ sacrifice, and our belief in Jesus. Yes, even the spirits of the righteous were made perfect when they learned of Jesus Christ.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        Good to see you back.

        The question of salvation by the blood of Jesus in retrospect, is a question if the Jews could get a second chance, after they have died and departed. Like Catholics being told there is a second chance in Purgatory.

        The answer is no.

        You have to accept Jesus as Master in this life. In the afterlife, there will be judgment. Either we believe this to be the truth or not.

        That Jesus preached to souls in prison, do not include a second chance. The rich man that ended up in Hell, was plainly told. You had your chance, and you blew it.

      • Thank you for the welcome.
        The blood of Jesus covered everyone’s sins…even those who died before Jesus came to earth.
        Please read this scripture. This scripture explains it perfectly about the people who died before Jesus came and died for us.
        Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        Your comment:

        The blood of Jesus covered everyone’s sins…even those who died before Jesus came to earth.

        My reply:

        Yes, in the sense that the sins I committed before I was saved, is covered. Also present and future sins. But not the sins of those who rejected Him, died and passed away.

        “Those who died before Jesus came to Earth”, in not covered by the New Covenant. They are covered by the blood offerings done by the Temple priests in Jerusalem. Jews could be saved by grace, if their hearts were circumzised.

      • Your comment:
        “Yes, in the sense that the sins I committed before I was saved, is covered. Also present and future sins.”

        Your sins from the past were not covered until you became a Christian.

        Your comment: “But not the sins of those who rejected Him, died and passed away.”

        I was speaking of the people who died before Jesus came to earth.

        If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
        Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
        But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
        For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

        For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

        (See Hebrews 7:11; 7:19: 10:14; 12:2; 1 Peter 4:5-6; 3:18-19)

  51. Dear Ivarfjeld,

    Retrospective effect? Yes, in some sense, though I know of no scriptural evidence for the idea of “soul-sleep.” Christ’s blood is what allows Abraham and Boaz to enter the kingdom of heaven, though. This is very clear from the scripture. Let me repeat, in syllogism form, the argument I have already made and defended.
    Premise 1: The law saves no one, has saved no one, will save no one. Ever.
    Premise 2: The sacrifices (commanded by God through Moses) are included in “the law.”
    Conclusion: The sacrifices save no one, have saved no one, will save no one. Ever.

    By the inherent and simple laws of logic, unless you contest one of the premises above, you are accepting the conclusion. Which premise do you contest?
    Please, answer this question. Please, actually respond to the biblical case I am putting forth. Which premise do you contest?

    In response to your comment about the Jewish woman:

    Premise: “True Israelite,” “Christian,” “part of the Church,” “part of the Bride of Christ,” “saint,” “follower of Christ, “believer in the God of Israel,” “follower of the one true God,” “saved one,” “adopted child of God,” “one saved by grace,” “one saved through faith,” “one saved by the death of Christ”- all of these refer to exactly the same thing, merely different aspects of it. You cannot be any one of these things without being all of them.

    Conclusion: The Jewish woman you met, since she is not all of these things, is none of these things. Since she is not, for example a Christian, she is not truly an Israelite, nor is she a believer in the God of Israel.

    To make it perfectly clear,
    “Is this lady also a part of “the true Israel?”. Is she the “bride of Christ”?”
    No. She is neither of these things. If she rejects the Messiah, she rejects the God of Israel, and therefore is not part of true Israel.

    “The Church has not replaced Israel.” Correct. The church IS Israel, real Israel, spiritual Israel. The Church has been around as long as Israel has been around.

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      “The Church has not replaced Israel.” Correct. The church IS Israel, real Israel, spiritual Israel. The Church has been around as long as Israel has been around.

      My reply:

      Here I have to disagree with you. The word Church was first used by Jesus, after He had come in the flesh. Israel is at least three thing:

      1. The man Jacob, who was renamed Israel.
      2. The 12 tribes of Israel.
      3. The modern day secular state of Israel.

      The word Israel predates Eklesia (Church) by more than 1000 years. Jesus used both the words, synagogue and Church.

      The word “Christian” is also a New Testament word. The word Jew did not cease to exist by the first century. And the Jews are still here, as the Bible promised. They will always be around, a remnant of them, up to the final judgment take place.

      God of the Bible was not going to re-gather all the “Christians” back home to physical Israel. He HAS re-gathered the lost tribes. And inside physical Israel, they will soon face the last and final anti-Christ taking them for a ride. Than, the return of the Messiah will come. And they will cry, cry cry. And He will embrace them.

      Jesus speaks about “on a Sabbath”, linked to the final signs of His return. Today, only the Jews tries their best to keep the Biblical Sabbath.

      Joel: The Majority of the Jews of today are not saved. But He has promised He will return and save them. I can not object, because it is written.

      Paul writes: THAN, all of Israel shall be saved…..Amen. We who are Messianic, do not need this THAN. We are already saved.

      • The first book in the Bible tells us who and what Israel is. See Genesis 32:28.

        Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.”

        Did you see that? The one who struggles with God and with men and overcomes…

        And Jesus in the last book of the Bible confirms this message. See these scriptures in Revelation. Read what Jesus says about overcoming.

        Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

        Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

        Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

        Revelation 2:26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations–

        Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

        Revelation 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

        Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

        Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

        And there is only one way a person can overcome this world, and that is through Jesus Christ our Savior.

        1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

        So who and what is Israel? Israel are people who overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.

      • Dear Victoria

        Shalom.

        Your comment was full of Bible verses, and that is fair enough. I will dwell for a second at your conclusion.

        You wrote:

        So who and what is Israel? Israel are people who overcome by faith in Jesus Christ.

        My comment:

        The Church is surely the New Israel of God, grafted. The Church has not replaced Israel, but rather enlarged her. Israel is not replaceable. The Jewish people, the 12 tribes of Jacob is alive, kicking, eternally chosen and doing quite well.

      • Ivar,
        I’m sorry, but your comments on Israel is conflicting.
        At one point I read that you say all must come through Jesus, then it seems you say that the Jewish people are already in Jesus even if they don’t believe in him?

        The Jewish people won’t be saved until they believe in Jesus. That’s what the Bible says. See Romans 11:23.

        Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        Chosen does not mean “automatically saved”. But eternally chosen, is a not revocable selection done by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God does not regrets His gifts and calling.

        Romans 11:28-30

        As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

        (end of scripture)

        This makes Replacement Theology null and void. A message from the pit.

      • Ivar said:
        “Chosen does not mean “automatically saved”. But eternally chosen, is a not revocable selection done by Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God does not regrets His gifts and calling.
        Romans 11:28-30
        As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
        (end of scripture)
        This makes Replacement Theology null and void. A message from the pit.”

        My Comment:
        “…for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.”
        They still have to answer God’s call.
        What this means is that they are not forever blinded, they are not forever hardened. But that if they don’t persist in unbelief they can be grafted back in.

  52. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    “The word Church was first used by Jesus, after He had come in the flesh…
    The word Israel predates Eklesia (Church) by more than 1000 years. Jesus used both the words, synagogue and Church.”
    The word “eklesia,” translated “church” means “assembly.” This word, “eklesia,” is used in the Septuagint to translate the Old Testament word, “qahal.” The word “church” wasn’t first used by Jesus, after his incarnation- it is merely our translated version of what he said, which was, in turn, a translated version of a word used throughout the Old Testament to talk about the assembly of Israel.

    “The word “Christian” is also a New Testament word.”
    Yes. It was given by the Gentiles to those who follow the Christ. It is synonymous with “believer in Jesus, Messiah,” which is synonymous with “saved one,” which is synonymous with “member of spiritual Israel.”

    “God of the Bible was not going to re-gather all the “Christians” back home to physical Israel.”
    True, but he IS going to gather all followers of him, from all time, into the true, future promised land (the new heavens and earth), as his Bride.

    Also, I would appreciate it if you would respond to the following argument, refuting one of the premises.
    Premise 1: The law saves no one, has saved no one, will save no one. Ever.
    Premise 2: The sacrifices (commanded by God through Moses) are included in “the law.”
    Conclusion: The sacrifices save no one, have saved no one, will save no one. Ever.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      You wrote:

      Premise 1: The law saves no one, has saved no one, will save no one. Ever.
      Premise 2: The sacrifices (commanded by God through Moses) are included in “the law.”
      Conclusion: The sacrifices save no one, have saved no one, will save no one. Ever.

      Agreed.

      But the lack of such obedience, did not save anyone either. If God did not pay attention to if the tribes of Israel followed his laws or not, He is the god of Disneyland.

      • Dear Ivarfjeld,
        Lack of obedience doesn’t say anyone, correct, but obedience to the law doesn’t save either, and never has- and you are claiming, effectively, that it did.
        (“He was covered by the blood sacrificed by the temple priests,” “Blood of rams, goats and chickens can [no] longer save anyone,” “…the existing system of blood offerings that took away the guilt of sins.”)

      • Dear Joel.

        Shalom.

        So let us conclude. If there was not blood offerings in the Temple in Jerusalem, the God of Israel was not going to save anyone. The first does not exclude the second. These things are interconnected.

        That Jesus has paid for all the sins of the World, does not, and never will, include a message of no man going to be sent to Hell.

  53. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    I have no idea what you are getting at with this statement. “the existing system of blood offerings that took away the guilt of sins.” Regardless, though, you overlook the fact that, at many times throughout the Old Testament account, the law *was* forsaken, and Jeremiah 6:20 (among other verses, including Isaiah 1-11-17) indicates that even the sacrifices can be an offence to God, unless they are kept along with the rest of the law.

    “That Jesus has paid for all the sins of the World, does not, and never will, include a message of no man going to be sent to Hell.”
    Correct. I am not a universalist, and to the best of my knowledge have never said anything that would indicate that I am.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      …indicates that even the sacrifices can be an offense to God, unless they are kept along with the rest of the law.

      My comment:

      I am not sure any longer, what our disagreement was from the very beginning. Are you a teacher of Replacement theology? If so, we can continue.

  54. Dear Ivarfjeld,

    If, by “Replacement theology,” you mean a teaching that true Israel and the true Church are distinct and different from each other, with one being God’s people in the Old Covenant and one in the new, not only am I not a teacher of replacement theology, I have never met anyone who is, nor do I even know of anyone who is. They may be out there, but to my knowledge, they do not have any significant power or influence. Every time I have run into the term “replacement theology,” it is being used by people as a label with which to make a straw-man argument against other actual beliefs.

    If, however, by “Replacement theology,” you mean the idea that Christ and his work is the fulfillment of the law, both for Jewish and Gentile believers (who are grafted into true, spiritual Israel by the circumcision of their hearts), and that Christ’s sacrifice is the true event of which the day of atonement, passover, etc. are the shadow of, and that the new heavens and earth are the true promise of which the promised land of Canaan is only a shadow, and that the old testament promises are, in bodily form rather than shadow form, given to the believer today, Jew and Gentile,(and similarly with various other aspects of the law), if that is what you mean by “replacement theology,” then I am a “teacher of replacement theology” through-and-through, but “replacement theology” is a misleading label.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel

      Shalom.

      Is there a true Israel, and a false Israel?

      That view is surely based on “Replacement theology”. Because you accuse those Jews who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, for being “false Jews”. That is antisemitic, and not a message from God of the Bible.

      God of Israel took all Jews out of Egypt, both “good” and “bad”. He also re-gathered all kind of Jews back to Israel in 1948. Among them were plenty who did not deserve to be re-gathered.

      Father, Son and Spirit is faithful to Israel, even when this chosen but disobedient people do not deserve God’s faithfulness.

      To be honest. The same faithfulness if available for me and you, who absolutely not deserve the mercy and grace we receive from our Master Jesus every day.

      • Ivar,
        Will you try to help me more on what you believe?
        Do you believe a Jew who does not believe Jesus is the Messiah, that when they die, they will go to heaven to be with Jesus anyway?
        If you do not believe they go to heaven to be with Jesus anyway, then really, you believe what you falsely call “replacement theology.”

      • Dear Victoria

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        If you do not believe they go to heaven to be with Jesus anyway, then really, you believe what you falsely call “replacement theology.”

        My reply:

        What are you trying to tell?

        I never heard any of my claimed teacher in school, trying to “make me believe, that if I do not believe in anything, than I do believe in something anyway…..”

        Since I do not support confusing statements, let me try to help you:

        Only Jesus saves. Only He can save. This includes both Jews and gentiles.

        Many people like your self will come on that day, and claim a lot of things they did believe they had understood, but they really had not understood anything anyway…

      • Ivar, you are not one who should make fun of people and call what they say confusing, especially the way you write much of the time.

        You said:
        “What are you trying to tell?”

        Since you asked, I will try to explain, but first, let’s look at your confusing thoughts…

        You said:
        “I never heard any of my claimed teacher in school, trying to “make me believe, that if I do not believe in anything, than I do believe in something anyway…..”

        You are guilty of the thing you falsely accuse me of. Very confusing thoughts and writing you displayed here.

        And you should not say “people like you.”

        I’ll tell you what kind of person I am. I’m a born again Christian, saved by Jesus Christ himself. I put a lot into my careful consideration of what Jesus says, and I get more than what I put in, as Jesus promised. And as I do learn, I don’t try to ridicule people as you do.

        You might be the one of the “many people like your self will come on that day, and claim a lot of things they did believe they had understood, but they really had not understood anything anyway…”

        Here, let me try to explain it to you again, since you did ask: If you believe Jews must be saved by faith in Jesus Christ, then how is your belief different than what you call “replacement theology?”

      • Dear Victoria

        Shalom.

        I never wrote that you are not “born again”. That is the domain of Jesus. But there will be a lot of claimed to be “born again’s ” in the flock, that never understood that we have to DO the FATHERS will to be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven.

        “Faith in my faith in Jesus”, will not save anyone. Than even the Pope has faith in ‘Jesus”.

        You wrote:

        Here, let me try to explain it to you again, since you did ask: If you believe Jews must be saved by faith in Jesus Christ, then how is your belief different than what you call “replacement theology?”

        My reply:

        Replacement Theology is the believe, that all the promises to the Jews have been made null av void, by the majority of them rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. That is a false theology from the pit.

        All who can read, have read the Bible, and is able to take a look at Israel 1948, should have been able to see that God, Father Son and Spirit, is faithful and keep His promises. Even the most faithless Jew was taken out of ancient Egypt. Not because He deserved it.

        Being Chosen by God, doers not mean “automatically saved”. Jews needs to obey Jesus, just like all of us. Like many Jews, nor will many claimed followers of Jesus, not make it through the narrow gate.

      • Ivar, You still do not answer the question.
        Please just answer the question.
        You have stated many times that Jews must accept Jesus before they can be saved.

        So, the question to you again is: If Jews are not saved until they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, then how is that different from your beliefs on what you call “replacement theology”?

        I will say a couple more things to you before I post this and wait for your answer to the question. One thing that I would like to say is that you should not ever say “replacement theology” is a “doctrine from the pit of hell.” You are confused and falsely call “replacement theology” what is God’s plan of salvation.
        Also, you say that real Messianic Jews would move back to Israel. I can hardly believe you say that about anybody. Stop judging people and adding to God’s Word. Jews aren’t saved by their faith in Jesus AND moving back to Israel!

      • Dear Victoria

        Shalom.

        You are free to have your own opinions. News That Matters is a place where you will be allowed to express them.

        You wrote:

        Jews aren’t saved by their faith in Jesus AND moving back to Israel!

        My reply:

        That is another private opinion, and could be branded as the “Gospel according to Victoria”.

        A state of Israel without Jews, would not make much out of the FATHERS WILL. That would have made the Prophetic Word null and void, and the “Jesus of Victoria” a big fool.

      • Ivar said:

        “I never wrote that you are not “born again”. That is the domain of Jesus. But there will be a lot of claimed to be “born again’s ” in the flock, that never understood that we have to DO the FATHERS will to be allowed into the Kingdom of Heaven.”

        Ivar, what you say here is falseness. A born again Christian DOES DO the Father’s will.

  55. Ivar said:
    “That is another private opinion, and could be branded as the “Gospel according to Victoria”.

    A state of Israel without Jews, would not make much out of the FATHERS WILL. That would have made the Prophetic Word null and void, and the “Jesus of Victoria” a big fool.”

    My Comment:
    You should be more careful what you falsely accuse others of, because it is wrong to falsely judge others, and it shows what you are guilty of. You are guilty of falsely judging and having only opinions and a “gospel according to Ivarfjeld.”
    You see Ivar, you falsely judge me of something…and now I can plainly see that you have your own gospel according to Ivar.

    Again, Jews who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior do not have move back to Israel to be a real Jew and truly saved. That is falseness from the doctrine of Ivar.

    • Dear Victoria.

      Shalom.

      Neither do I, nor anyone else accuse you of anything. And we have been here before, several times, were you are up in arms, not able to debate faith in public.

      Jesus has not replaced the Prophetic Word. The Father;s will is that Jews shall obey Him, and the state of Israel is a fulfillment of Biblical promises, that are mot revocable.

      Must all Messianic Jews return to Israel to be saved?

      The Word of God do not demand so. But there are now more than 5 million Jews who have come home to Israel, and that is the FATHERS WILL. And what is the FATHERS will, is surely the WILL of the Son, Jesus of Nazareth.

      • You have said the Jews who believe in Jesus are not real Jews if they do not return to Israel. Now are you repenting of your false doctrine to Jews?

      • Dear Victoria.

        Shalom.

        I have earlier told you, not to make “rock and roll” out of other peoples statements.

        You wrote:

        You have said the Jews who believe in Jesus are not real Jews if they do not return to Israel.

        My reply:

        I wrote the exact opposite to you five minutes ago.

        Now I have to sleep. I request my co-editors to keep the diplomatic relations with Victoria open.

  56. Ivar said:
    “and the “Jesus of Victoria” a big fool.”

    Let it be known what Ivarfjeld called the Son Of the Only One True God, Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior.

    Repent Ivar. The Jesus of Victoria is the Son of the One and Only God.

    • Dear Victoria.

      Shalom.

      You wrote:

      Repent Ivar. The Jesus of Victoria is the Son of the One and Only God.

      My reply:

      I am no longer very sure, Victoria, that you are doing the Fathers will. You need to read Matthew 7:21-23, and take a fresh look the the Prophetic Word. I would be blessed if I knew you had a good Bible teacher.

      • Take your own advice, Ivar. You are in error. You are in error for many things.

        I cannot stomach you much more and your brute remarks on a child of God. I leave you with this Proverb, I leave and won’t return. I will obey the Word of God and not try to correct you any longer, now that I have learned more about you.

        Proverbs 9:7-9
        Whoever corrects a mocker invites insults;
        whoever rebukes the wicked incurs abuse.
        Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you;
        rebuke the wise and they will love you.
        Instruct the wise and they will be wiser still;
        teach the righteous and they will add to their learning.

      • Victoria,

        Ivar has not stated that you should leave from here. Again, this is a place where we should hearn from each other. But we must quote exactly what the other person specifically has said. More importantly, we must quote the bible directly, and in the context it was meant to be understood from Christ.

        Gloria

      • And you should read: Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

        What did Jesus call them? Vipers, snakes, synagogue of satan. He told them your fathers killed the prophets and you are still in their blood. The Sanhedrin called for Christ’s death, and the release of a murderer. Even Herod washed his hands. How are you now rewriting history? Facts?
        Can you not see by the comment above, the Jews despise Jesus, they despise you for believing in him.
        I urge you to hear a Godly Jewish Rabbi that will tell you truth, Rabbi Weiss, see Zionism vs Judaism. If you are a true man on God you will search for truth.
        Zionism is a political movement, they have nothing to do with God at all, their God is money. All Jews are not zionists, all zionists are not Jews. But zionists DO run the state of Israel; Israel was founded by Rothschild..know who he is? He is one of the international bankers that own our Federal Reserve and stolen our country into bankruptcy.
        Joe Biden, last year, said on TV, I am not a Jew, but I am a zionist. What did he mean by that? I urge you my brother to find out.

      • Dear Sweettina2

        Shalom, and welcome to this site.

        You wrote:

        But Zionists DO run the state of Israel; Israel was founded by Rothschild.

        My reply:

        Zionism is based on the belief that the Jews has a birthright to live on the land of their forefathers. Nothing more, nothing less. Zionism can take many forms, and a secular Jew will claim his birthright being based on history, ethnic origin or various cultural factors. A religious Jew will claim that He has a Biblical right to live inside this land. He is right. Biblical Zionism, is based on the Word of God.

        That Zionists do have money is no secret. Do you also have a savings account?

        If not, do not blame the Jews.

  57. Dear Ivarfjeld,

    “Is there a true Israel, and a false Israel?” Yes, in some sense. There is natural, physical “Israel,” the descendants of the man named Israel, but unless they follow the God of Abraham (which necessarily means believing in the Messiah), they are not truly sons of Israel, even though they may be his physical descendants. They are disowned, disinherited, broken off of the tree until they believe and are added back into true Israel. Also, anyone who is not a physical descendant of the man Israel can become a part of Israel merely by believing in the Messiah.

    Because of this, while any Jew who does not believe in the Messiah may still be a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), and even a citizen of a nation today that calls itself Israel, he is not *really* an Israelite.
    That view is surely based on “Replacement theology”.
    This is not antisemitic. It’s not an insult. It is merely a statement that any physical Jew who takes the belie unnatural to him, that Jesus is not the Messiah, is in the same position (separated from the root of the tree) as a Gentile is by nature and by birth. This is not antisemitic, anymore than it is anti-Irish to deny that an unsaved Irishman has a special privilege. It is, in fact, still giving honor to a physical Jew, because it states that for a Jew to be unsaved is unnatural, contrary to the position offered him by his own descent (I.E., as being a part of the people to whom were given the law and the prophets).
    You slander me in calling me antisemitic. True Israel, spiritual Israel, is not a place, it is a people, and it is a people whose very definition comes not from their ancestors by the flesh, but from their identity in God. That is not insulting the Jews- it is merely saying that, to call the modern political nation of Israel “Israel” is a misnomer.

    Again, you slander me to claim that I am antisemitic. I would appreciate an apology.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      Your comment:

      Again, you slander me to claim that I am antisemitic. I would appreciate an apology.

      My reply:

      Eve if you call me “antisemitic”, you will not slander me. And I will not ask you for an apology. We have to be able to agree to disagree. For me, your comment was antisemitic. You can disagree, and is free to do so.

      The goal for a debate on faith, is to search for the truth. Truth seekers shall feel blessed by the truth, when they encounters truth tellers.

  58. Victoria and Ivarfjeld,

    Chill.

    Victoria,
    Despite what you claim, Ivarfjeld never said “”the Jesus of Victoria”” is a big fool.” He said “[An Israel without Jews] would have made. . . the “Jesus of Victoria” a big fool.”

    Additionally, you said “You have said the Jews who believe in Jesus are not real Jews if they do not return to Israel.”
    This was visibly incorrect, displaying an apparent lack of concern with honestly representing other peoples’ positions. Please, do not misrepresent other people’s statements.

    Joel

    • Joel,
      Please don’t come on here and tell me I display a lack of concern with honestly representing other peoples position. Who do you think you are? Truly, answer that. Maybe I didn’t understand Ivar correctly, or maybe you don’t understand him correctly. Ether way, you should not have slandered me. You should not even of tried to judge me. Do what God says, and don’t judge His servant.
      You cause me to come back to post to defend myself from your slander against me. What’s wrong with you? Instead of you encouraging me and standing up for me against Ivar’s slander to me— you come back to slander me too. What kind of men are you? Better yet, what kind of Christians are you? And who on earth are you to tell me to chill? While you beg Ivar for an apology.
      Ivar has done nothing but say he questions if I’m a Christian, and other terrible things. And he does tell Messianic Jews to go back to Israel if they are truly Jew. He has said that in other threads not just this one.
      No matter who is in Israel—Victoria’s Jesus is not a fool, like Ivar suggests. Do you understand that? You know, I don’t care what you people know. I should not of came back to see if the false judging names callers have stopped. I only see it has continued with another one named Joel.
      Now you all can say whatever you want, and about whomever you want. I’m not going to let any of you bite at my heals any longer.

      • Victoria,

        Please relax. No one here has slandered you or called you any names. We are trying to say that we think you should read other people’s statements a little carefully. No one here has spoken bad about you.

        In fact, your bible knowledge is extensive, but we all must be able to admit when we are wrong. Including myself.

        Let’s take a breather, and pray to Christ (all of us) for understanding.

        God Bless,

        Gloria

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      It might be useful to look at the re-gathering of Jews home to Zion, from three different perspectives.

      1. From a secular, or not Jewish.
      2. From a Jewish
      3. From God of the Bible.

      1. From a secular perspective the regathering of Jews home to Israel is rather pointless. Its a political event, and Israel being divided or dismissed will also be a political event. Unfortunately many ‘Churches” have taken a similar view, supported by Replacement theology. The Biblical promises to the Jewish people, are null and void. They have all been taken over by the Church. They say “Church = Israel”.

      2. From a Jewish perspective, secular, religious, and Messianic, the Jews of all colors have a birthright to live in Israel. They do disagree among them selves where the borders shall be drawn, and how to make peace with its more than hostile Islamic neighbors.

      3. God of the Bible owns both the state of Israel, and the Jewish people. What men might think about this, is not of any importance to Him. His plan of regathering Jews of all colors home to Israel, is to pave the the way for the second coming of His Son. The returning Messiah will appear in and rule from Jerusalem, not Madrid or Mexico city. The reign of the returning Messiah will be in the midst of His chosen, but very stiff necked people.

      The incoming Messiah will come with all His angles. Surely all true followers of Jesus, who understand that they have been grafted.

      • Ivarfjeld, if I may ask, do you believe that, when a Gentile is grafted into spiritual Israel by believing in the Messiah, there is any ongoing difference between him and a Jewish believer in the Messiah?

      • Dear Joel.

        Shalom.

        You wrote:

        if I may ask, do you believe that, when a Gentile is grafted into spiritual Israel by believing in the Messiah, there is any ongoing difference between him and a Jewish believer in the Messiah?

        My reply:

        True believers in Jesus the Messiah is lead into the same truth by the Holy Spirit. If we are willing to listen to Him. To support or reject Biblical Zionism is like the mother of tests, for those who might end up in the camp of “Christians”, who accuse God of being unfaithful and a liar in his relations with the Jewish people. That is a “very sticky wicket” to hold, to use cricket language.

  59. Victoria,

    Apparent. Apparent lack of concern, is what I said. I was making an observation about how you come across, as further illustrated by your misquotation again.

    “Who do you think you are? Truly, answer that.”
    In relation to your discussion with Ivarfjeld, I think that I am a fairly objective observer, and if I did have a relevant bias, it would have tended more towards criticizing Ivarfjeld, rather than you, because of the discussion/debate with him I am currently involved in.

    “You should not even of tried to judge me. Do what God says, and don’t judge His servant.” Out of curiosity, why do you imply (as you seem to, unless you claim not to be judging us) that you are a servant of God, more than myself or Ivarfjeld?

    “Instead of you encouraging me and standing up for me against Ivar’s slander to me— you come back to slander me too.”
    Actually, I have not slandered you. Even Ivarfjeld’s question regarding the Father’s will is not properly termed slander (whether or not it is justified), due to its nature as a question, and with such words as “if” being included.

    “While you beg Ivar for an apology.
    Ivar has done nothing but say he questions if I’m a Christian, and other terrible things.”
    Keep in mind that you yourself have given both Ivarfjeld and myself a few choice labels. Now that you mention it, though, I wouldn’t mind an apology from you either, now, and Ivarfjeld certainly deserves one from you, because of your misquotation of him.

    “No matter who is in Israel—Victoria’s Jesus is not a fool, like Ivar suggests.”
    I certainly hope that he isn’t a fool- I happen to disagree with Ivarfjeld over the exact nature and purpose of the modern nation that calls itself Israel, so I don’t entirely appreciate the comment myself, but
    that doesn’t call for the level of response that you’ve given.

    “I should not of came back to see if the false judging names callers have stopped.” Would you mind quoting the things I’ve said that you take offense at? Thank you!

    Joel

  60. Dear Ivarfjeld,

    I wrote:

    “if I may ask, do you believe that, when a Gentile is grafted into spiritual Israel by believing in the Messiah, there is any ongoing difference between him and a Jewish believer in the Messiah?”

    You responded:

    “True believers in Jesus the Messiah is lead into the same truth by the Holy Spirit. If we are willing to listen to Him. To support or reject Biblical Zionism is like the mother of tests, for those who might end up in the camp of “Christians”, who accuse God of being unfaithful and a liar in his relations with the Jewish people. That is a “very sticky wicket” to hold, to use cricket language.”

    I’m afraid I can’t tell if that is a yes or a no. Could you re-phrase the answer, to at least include a
    “yes” or a “no,” or a “sort of both” or a “neither” or something like that, preferably with an explanation?

    Thanks!

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom.

      Even when you demand a Yes or a no answer, not everyone feel this is a yes or a no answerable question. I hope we can agree on that.

      • Dear Joel.

        Shalom.

        You asked:

        “if I may ask, do you believe that, when a Gentile is grafted into spiritual Israel by believing in the Messiah, there is any ongoing difference between him and a Jewish believer in the Messiah?”

        My reply will be a conditional “yes”. I and my elders in the same Church, also have disagreements. Both in regards to matters of Church work, and in matters of theology.

  61. Dear Ivarfjeld,
    A conditional yes? So there are ongoing differences, at least in some sense, you believe. Would you care to explain what you think they are, and why they are there?

    And yes, I realize that not everyone would believe that it is a yes or no question. That is why I added
    “sort of both and “neither” to the list of possibilities.

    Joel

    • Dear Joel.

      Shalom:

      You wrote:

      A conditional yes? So there are ongoing differences, at least in some sense, you believe. Would you care to explain what you think they are, and why they are there?

      My reply:

      Do you ask me this question, because you are interested in learning something new?

  62. Hey Joel or anyone who wants to tackle this,
    A bit back, you were stating that the sacrifices of the Law never did take away sin. Not disagreeing with that, but what then was their purpose? Surely not just a giant teaching tool?
    Why all the elaborate detail and ceremony if only to point to the sacrifice of Messiah?
    And, why are there sacrifices in the temple of Ezekiel? (Post-Messiah’s return.)They are not exactly the same as the ones in Torah.
    Eagerly waiting to be enlightened.

    Bandaids

    • Dear Bandaids.

      Shalom, and welcome to this site.

      When God tells you to do something for him, He means business. The offerings in the temples in Jerusalem, was offered a sin offerings for the Whole World. That is why God said: I will make you a Holy nation, a Kingdom of priests.

      Leviticus 20:26
      You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own.

      If the Jews overruled the commands of God, they would not have been: HIS OWN.

      • That was the old covenant, do you not know there is a new covenant? And that there is now no Jews nor Gentiles? Do you read the New Testament at all?
        They did overrule the commands of God, thats why they were in bondage and exile…still in exile this day. And true Jews admit they are in exile. See Rabbi Weiss and many others.
        Tell me, are they Jesus’ own? There will be 144,000 remnant spared, have you not read that?
        When Almighty God was on the mountain with Moses the mountain was quaking and smoking, so much that even Moses hair turned white! What were the people doing at the foot of the mountain while the Most High God was speaking??? Making a golden calf, getting drunk and having orgies…..
        And they are still making golden calves today…see Wall St pics, Merrill Lynch bldg. And look at the board members/CEO’s names, see who they are.
        What would you have done while the Father of Heaven was on that mountain? I think I would have been a little more fearful of the power of God, I am now and the same temptations are there.

  63. ivarfjeld says:
    January 27, 2011 at 7:42 pm

    Dear Sweettina2

    Shalom, and welcome to this site.

    Your reply:

    Zionism is based on the belief that the Jews has a birthright to live on the land of their forefathers. Nothing more, nothing less. Zionism can take many forms, and a secular Jew will claim his birthright being based on history, ethnic origin or various cultural factors. A religious Jew will claim that He has a Biblical right to live inside this land. He is right. Biblical Zionism, is based on the Word of God.

    That Zionists do have money is no secret. Do you also have a savings account?

    If not, do not blame the Jews.

    My reply:
    Funny how you skipped over the facts of the scripture, said things you cant back up (and neither do scripture), then make a remark about my bank account and suggest blaming the Jews.

    Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

    Concerning zionism, I didnt have to steal, pillage and plunder every country on earth to get mine. See Africa: DeBeers and blood diamonds, opals, gold, oil..all the while impoverishing their countries.
    Matthew 23:27
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness.

    • Dear Sweettina2

      Shalom.

      The article you commented on is full of scriptures. People with money, are not always bad. And people without money, are not always good. Among the Zionists, there are also good and bad.

      Deuteronomy 7:6
      For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

      (end of scripture)

      That election took place more than 3.000 years ago. And since God of the Bible can be trusted, man can not make this election null and void. By the way: If was Jesus who selected them. Father, Son and Spirit has always been in agreement. Yesterday, Today and Forever.

  64. Shalom Ivarfjeld, and thank you for your kind reply.

    Of course the sacrifices of Torah were to be done in obedience, as all of God’s commands are to be obeyed. But that was not quite what I was seeking. I am hoping for better understanding of the whole system.

    I have heard it explained this way:

    Sin sacrifices of Torah – serve only to point to Messiah’s eventual sacrifice.
    Messiah’s sacrifice – to take away sin.

    So then the sin sacrifices that remain after Messiah has returned and set up his kingdom in Jerusalem, what is their purpose? To remind one of atonement for sin?

  65. Shalom Ivarfjeld and Bandaids,

    I pray that you both are having a blessed day with the L-rd. Your conversation was e-mailed to me so I am compelled to participate. I humbly share my opinions through the Word.

    To Bandaids, I want to make a couple of things clear for you concerning (post Messiah)”sin sacrifices” and their “purpose”:

    Romans 6:1-13
    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

    Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

    In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

    1 Peter 1:14
    As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

    2 Peter 3:11-14
    Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

    ===

    The only sacrifice that the followers of the Christ are to practice is “death to self”. This means to cast out the old ways of our “former ignorance”. Our baptism and obedience, in love, will remind us of being delivered from sin. We will remember these days of our lives forever.

    Instead of focusing on the chasm between man and G-d, seek the wisdom and understanding that comes from the Perfect One.

    ===

    Job28:28
    And he said to the human race,
    “The fear of the Lord—that is wisdom,
    and to shun evil is understanding.”

    Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
    Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the duty of all mankind.
    For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    Revelation 22:14
    Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
    ===

    May G-d bless all that believe His promise and follow His plan. Amen.

  66. Shalom. (Did i kill this thread? I was just trying to help) I hope i didn’t deter any subscribers from seeking the King. Rejoice, the L-rd is in love with you!

    Now for a cryptic message from David to the L-rd Jehova:
    Psalm 89:19-37
    19 Once you spoke in a vision,
    to your faithful people you said:
    “I have bestowed strength on a warrior;
    I have raised up a young man from among the people.
    20 I have found David my servant;
    with my sacred oil I have anointed him.
    21 My hand will sustain him;
    surely my arm will strengthen him.
    22 The enemy will not get the better of him;
    the wicked will not oppress him.
    23 I will crush his foes before him
    and strike down his adversaries.
    24 My faithful love will be with him,
    and through my name his horn[f] will be exalted.
    25 I will set his hand over the sea,
    his right hand over the rivers.
    26 He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father,
    my God, the Rock my Savior.’
    27 And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
    the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
    28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
    and my covenant with him will never fail.
    29 I will establish his line forever,
    his throne as long as the heavens endure.

    30 “If his sons forsake my law
    and do not follow my statutes,
    31 if they violate my decrees
    and fail to keep my commands,
    32 I will punish their sin with the rod,
    their iniquity with flogging;
    33 but I will not take my love from him,
    nor will I ever betray my faithfulness.
    34 I will not violate my covenant
    or alter what my lips have uttered.
    35 Once for all, I have sworn by my holiness—
    and I will not lie to David—
    36 that his line will continue forever
    and his throne endure before me like the sun;
    37 it will be established forever like the moon,
    the faithful witness in the sky.”

    ====

    G-d is faithful and demands faithfulness! Amen.

  67. Sorry im not speak englis just read,Very good this page.Good sepeaking.Im sorry just look palsztinia not a tv ….Palestinia true holokaust ,This treu not watter,not eating and not every..why ?
    Why to embargo ?We one god,make,we one born to god!
    Im not understand why not send to just a letters palestinia.Why ?
    This not god ways !!!God never writing “kill2to palestin.Slow kill!!
    Embargo,attach,house dozer and why?Jude this speak:this my home god this writing!
    Im never read this a big books!
    Never read to Izrael many truee jude live?Im can’t go to izeael!
    Why can’t go izrael my mother not jude:This true rassist!
    Im one man one churching man im never ,never rassist im never hate every people..never ,im not problem jude or not just one problem izrael and palestin !
    Sorry im can’t writing to englis
    Ps:One ask:Now this 20century 30silver credit is kill to man:(
    Thanks from a very very good reading just one true a true god tru and way …….
    God save your every mans self!!!

  68. I agree: who killed Yeshua ben Yoseph the Nazarene? I did. My sins are responsible for His death.

    So are yours.

    He told us that man has no greater love than to die for a friend (John 15:13) — then He died for His enemies. Us.

  69. God wil never forsake Israel. He promised to Restore the house of Jacob after He finishes with the gentiles. Israel is timepice of God. Restoration started soon after second World War fulfiling Matthews Chapter 24.

  70. Just desire to say your article is as astonishing. The clearness on your post is just nice and that i could think you are a professional in this subject. Well together with your permission let me to clutch your feed to stay updated with drawing close post. Thank you 1,000,000 and please keep up the rewarding work.

  71. The world need to be advised on Gods prophesies from the Bible as many people regard the Israelis as oppressors and evil. But if so called Christians receive Gods revelation concerning the Jews and the Holy land, their minds gonna change and start telling the truth. The problem is that unbelief has gripped believers of today. As time is no more left, let everyone believe the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of his or her sins and get baptized to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37-38).

  72. Father Yahweh’s Son has a HEBREW NAME it is NOT Jesus Christ.
    This is the antimessiah that all the Hebrew prophets warned us was coming.
    The NAME of the HEBREW MESSIAH tells His story because His Name means Yahweh will save His people from their sins.

    http://www.yahweh.com

    Don’t be a fool believe all that the prophets hace spoken Luke 24:25

    Okie

  73. @Kelli,

    Here’s how we respond to Isaiah 53. http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=313:isaiah-53&catid=72:scriptural-studies&Itemid=507

    Note that King James and similar translations intentionally make the passage appear to fit Jesus incredibly well- I would recommend trying an academic version of the Bible.

    The whole idea of needing to cover our sins is a very Christian concept. If you were to ask a Jew in 150 BC how he deals with not being cleansed of his sins, he wouldn’t know what you were talking about. You guys made that up.

    Regarding the sacrifice though, prayer has taken the place of sacrifice for the time being. In fact, the traditional series of prayers is arranged in such a way to correspond to the sacrifices of the old days.

    While I appreciate your sentiment in attempting to convert Mochaman and me and save us from hellfire, your efforts might be of better use elsewhere.

    • “The idea of needing to cover our sin” is from The Bible, from The garden of Edens time. And since God had finished creating The world, the cloth He made to cover The nakedness and shame of Adam and Eve after their fall and nakedness, was not created from Nothing, but formed from The skin of one animal. Who had to bleed and take a substitute blame and die for the sin comitted by men. If He (God) created the cloth of skin out of nothing, we have to rewrite The story of The creation week.

      King Salomon writes “you (The Shepperd (God)) have lamb( “The Lamb of God”) for cloth” (covering for sinfull people). (Is it “Songs of Wisdom” it is called in english, in The Bible, ch. 27, v. 23-26)

      So, the cloth God make to cover the shame of sinfull men, is made by The skin of Gods Lamb, says The Son of David who got special wisdom from God.

      It is only The rightousness of Christ (The one true Messiah) that can give sinfull men covering from shame in the presence of God. This is told by God from The beginning. Humble yourself to this truth and God will lift you high.

      • Solomon’s wisdom eventually led him to be the First Great Apostate & the first great Politican through the baggage of his many wives, commencing the break of Israel to its fall unto this day., even the Masonic corruptions that rules the roost. Asking for wisdom became his biggest mistake when he should have said “Thy Grace is sufficient for me” which is to be guided by the Spirit instead of the Mind.
        America denotes the founding of the temple in the name of God to become a great nation but then the many people off the migrants denote the many wives of Solomon & these Pagans by their beliefs denote the baggages of Solomon’s wives even unto the Caesar sitting atop his pride saying of the manner “America is no more a God founded country” , enter the sexual corruptions unto its core “Sodom” & the rest of the American story is the rest of Solomon’s unto Isreal’s own tale.

  74. 69 weeks had past from the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel. John the Baptist was baptizing in the River Jordan. Another prophet had arrived on the scene, one Yahushua, Jesus of Nazareth, who many came to believe is The Messiah. Not because he fulfilled the popular prophecy of a Messiah that would conquer Israels enemies propelling Israel to its rightful status of world Dominion, but because the miracles and signs caused the faithful to re-examine the popular eschatology and see the truth of Israel’’s coming demise. He came to save them from their sins and foretold the desolation of the Temple, the City and the Nation.

    Jeremiah was thrown into prison because his prophecies did not line up with popular eschatology, but he and few others told the truth. The Popular Prophecy Teachers of Jesus day could show you a hundred scriptures to support their fallacy, ‘the ruling and reigning messiah conquering the entire earth’, but that did not negate the fact that they held to a false presupposition. So it was in Jeremiah’s time as in Jesus’ – so it is today. If it is popular it is probably wrong. What 1st century Israelite wanted to hear that the 70 weeks determined for Israel as a special set apart nation to God was nearing its end, with certain desolation of the Temple, City, and Nation to follow? This Prophet told them that He would be delivered up and killed, that not one stone of the Temple would be left upon another, that they would be persecuted and have to flee the land or get swallowed up by the flood to come. Even His own disciples could not shake the prophetic delusion, bewildered at his death, only understanding and accepting the truth with His resurrection having their eyes opened by His Holy Spirit.

    And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.(Luk 21:20-22) For those in Israel Seventy Weeks of years had passed, Jesus was risen from the dead and then ascended to sit at the right hand of The Father. The disciples where witnessing in Israel and the Gospel was now going to the Nations via Paul and those who followed. The New Testament was being written and distributed one letter at a time. In Judea the followers of Yahushua the Messiah were preparing to flee as they had been warned by Him of the …wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Luk 21:24 This was the unpopular prophecy which only the faithful remnant would accept, and some only with much convincing by the Word and their present reality. How merciful our God was to continue work in Israel to allow as many to escape the wrath to come.

    Now there were two camps in Israel, The Obedient who would heed the words of the Messiah and sell their lands and make preparations to flee and take as many with them as would be saved… and they would take the Gospel to the world. …all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Act 2:44-47) If, by the word of the Messiah, they did not flee, there were only two alternatives for those that stayed behind, they would …fall by the edge of the sword… or …be led away captive into all nations… This was the fate of The Disobedient. One camp followed the Messiah, one camp rejected Him. Which camp were God’s Chosen People? As Ruth was grafted in, and Rahab even making it into the linage of the Messiah so our God has always made provision for those of other nations to be grafted into His Holy Nation. When I say His Holy Nation I am not talking about a Nation of flesh and blood, for it is written, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But this was something new, this faithful remnant was being dispersed into all nations taking the gospel with them to call upon as many as would be saved.

    Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal 3:16) Has God forgotten who are His people? Is the seed of Abraham by faith any less Yahudi (the people of God) than those who may or may not be the actual descendants of Israel simply because they are called Jews? If today the posterity of the Disobedient and other proselytes who practice the religion of Judaism and accept not the Messiah are called His Chosen People, how much more those who practice the Faith of the Great Patriarchs having been washed and purchased by the Lamb of God, Yahushua Jesus the Messiah?

    And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. (Gen 12:3) If God Himself spoke this to Abraham before there was even an Israel or a “Jew” How is this less applicable to me than one who rejects His Messiah but labels himself a Jew? For he is not a Jew (Yahudi (the people of God)), which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29) This not only applies to those who merely call themselves Jews it applies as well to those who are only Christians outwardly and have not the circumcision that is of the heart, in the spirit. Be not deceived. YHWH knows who are His Chosen People.

    For a better understanding of Daniel’s 70 weeks watch this short video. http://CrossTheBorder.org/7yeardeception/

    http://CrossTheBorder.org/gods-chosen-people/

  75. The real ‘replacement theology’ is replacing the Israel of God, a.k.a. the Church, with ethnic Jews, or even worse, the modern state of Israel.

    <>

    Wrong. You are reading what is spiritual with a carnal mind. God said He would gather *Israel* to their own land, the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That ‘land of the living’ is Jesus Christ, and the prophecy has been fulfilled in the Church.

    It was *not* <> 

    Look at the prophecy in context:

    “For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them . [28] And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.” (Ezekiel 36:24-28)

    This prophecy has *certainly* not been fulfilled by the State of Israel, which in no wise keeps Gods commandments, or in ethnic Judaism, which remains stubbornly unrepentant in the error of the Pharisees.

    Not saying that ethnic Israel (Jews) isn’t loved by God, or that they have no role to play; on the contrary, Paul maintains they are loved for the fathers’ (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) sake; that they are branches temporarily severed from the vine (the true Israel, that is, Christ), but as native branches easily grafted back on; that all Israel will be saved. But to confuse the Israel of God with ethnic Jews is a serious error. To think that the promises were made to the seed according to the flesh is to miss the difference between Ishmael and Isaac.

  76. i love Jesus, i love Abraham, i love jacob, i love Paul, soul of tersas,i love peter how could a person hate Israel, May God bless Israel.

  77. As one gets closer to The Lord Jesus, in and thru His Word we refer to ‘Brother Jeremiah said, Brother Moses said, Brother Paul said, Brother James said, Brother Mark, Brother Micah Ohh yes these are our brethren, as the women are our sisters! One can’t deny the grafted in we were done to this glorious family in The Household of Faith, Thank you Father, Sir you’re wonderful!

  78. Indeed Israel is the Lords chosen and beloved. Why do nations rage and imagine vain things against her? Any nation or people that hate Israel is under curse says Lord God? Whether one might have stongest weapon, will not previlal, why not accept Gods will.

  79. it sadens my heart that their seem to be many christian brothers and sisters who do not support Israel because they believe that God has rejected them and that the church has replaced Israel as Gods chosen People: God will never abandon his beloved Israel.
    The church are only grafted in to Gods chosen people through Yeshua ha Messaiah

  80. If your Human messiah was to return today, you would kill him (again). As he will point you out as a wrongful example of a person.

    Personally, no human was is nor ever will be Holly, or a godlike.

    what a fantasy..

    Happy Friday

    • Howard,

      The reason why Jesus died on that cross was to save us. He rose from the dead, and lives for eternity.

      Christ will return soon, but it will be to smite all enemies. Those that believe in him, accept him will have eternal life with him.

      Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    • You say…..~~~>Personally, no human was is nor ever will be Holly,<~~~ Amazing how you can call God a Liar and not even bat an eye ….When HE said 'We are Holy because of what HE did…Ohh to listen to His Word and not the words of the World nor to our unrenewed minds that was molded by The World which was molded by 'Satan, ie Lucifer, Beelzebub, Prince of Darkness and many more names of such like expressing the epitome of Evil..

    • Our Messiah will return. But this time it will be very different. He will not come back to be the Lamb of God. He will return as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. Vengeance belongs to God and vengeance will be meted out for those who have trampled on the Blood of Jesus Christ and rejected him. No, He is no fantasy.

    • Beverley,

      It matters very much who put him on the cross, because it is written in his Word. It matters even more as to why he died for us

      John 19

      .6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

      But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

      7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”

      8 When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9 and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

      11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

      Isaiah 53:12, “Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”

  81. It ‘does’ matter who put Him on the Cross…..it matters so much The Holy Ghost saw fit to tell us in many scriptures who, why, when, where and what and yes ‘how’….so yes dear ‘it does most assuredly matter who put Jesus on the Cross!

    • Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
      Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
      Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
      Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
      Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
      Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
      Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
      Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
      Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
      Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
      Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
      Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

      • CONTEXT dispels false doctrines:
        Since any portion of Scripture is only understood properly when viewed in the context of God’s revelation as a whole, some additional study will be helpful before you “tackle” Isaiah 53.

        Look at the setting in which Isaiah 53 occurs. Earlier on in Isaiah, God had predicted exile and calamity for the Jewish people. Chapter 53, however, occurs in the midst of Isaiah’s “Messages of Consolation”, which tell of the restoration of Israel to a position of prominence and a vindication of their status as God’s chosen people. In chapter 52, for example, Israel is described as “oppressed without cause” (v.4) and “taken away” (v.5), yet God promises a brighter future ahead, one in which Israel will again prosper and be redeemed in the sight of all the nations (v.1-3, 8-12).

        Chapter 54 further elaborates upon the redemption which awaits the nation of Israel. Following immediately after chapter 53’s promise of a reward for God’s servant in return for all of its suffering (53:10-12), chapter 54 describes an unequivocally joyous fate for the Jewish people. Speaking clearly of the Jewish people and their exalted status (even according to all Christian commentaries), chapter 54 ends as follows: “`This is the heritage of the servants of the L-rd and their vindication is from Me,’ declares the L-rd.”

        Replacement Heresy – Understand that HaShem is ONE and that Judaism has not and will never be replaced by anyone. To claim the Jews have been replaced is to call HaShem a liar because He said: “For I am Adonai, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” — Malachi 3:6 and “God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him — Genesis 17:19.

        Rabbi Nachman of Breslov taught (Likutay Moharan 64) that every Wisdom and Intellect has it’s own specific tune and melody. It is from the melody that the wisdom is produced and extended (as can be discerned in Psalms (47) ‘sing enlighten’). Even the the wisdom of heresy has it’s own specific tune and melody unique to the wisdom of heresy.

  82. Per the Blog: “The «problem» with the death of Jesus, is that in the Court of Law, there has has to be a dead body before anybody can be accused of murder. Since the Bible claims Jesus is alive, someone must have misunderstood.”

    Actually, Jesus did die. That is why He was buried for 3 days. Then He came back to life on His own. This is the proof that He is God Almighty. The OT/Abrahamic prophets would have a tactile interaction with a body to bring it back to life. Jesus simply spoke; “Lazarus, come forth!” This shows He had authority within Himself over death. Only a True God can be self-existing without need of an origin. That is why there can only be One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel.

    Jesus was God, manifested in the flesh. The OT is full of over 400 prophecies on how to identify the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled all but 1, His second coming. Most people don’t understand what a God is, and that Jahweh *is* God Almighty. A genuine God is one that has always existed, with no beginning or end.

    Additionally, the birthright of the Messiah must be impeccably proveable. Impeccable means, without the slightest bit of question of errancy, and only God Almighty can claim that. There is no way that the genealogical record can be established for anyone claiming to be the Messiah after 70 CE/AD, because all the records of the births and the ability to trace them back to the 12 sons of Israel, were destroyed in the destruction of the Temple. That is why it is impossible to have a Messiah after 70, b/c there is no way to prove that man is truly a man of Israel and of the correct tribe.

    Then, it was God Himself who killed Jesus. This is because it was a sacrifice by God, because the demand for the payment of Sin (imperfection, separation from God’s Holiness and from Him) is so horribly and terribly great it is impossible to pay it except by the blood of the Holy One Himself. It is the same as in the Exodus: when God sees the Blood on the doorposts of the Believers, He will pass over them and not destroy them. There is no blood that could ever be so Holy that it would pay an Eternal Price, except for the blood of God Himself. This is why the Lamb of God would take away the Sin of the World: The sacrificial Lamb was sent by God, to be struck down as a sheep before the slaughter, and would not cry out for its own life. That is exactly what happened with Jesus at the Scourging (pre-crucifixion torture) and at the Crucifixion.

  83. A Jew says wrote,

    “..The idea of needing blood for forgiveness is a completely Christian idea; the idea was likely derived out of the Temple’s sacrificial offerings…”

    How is this a “completely Christian idea” when you say they got it from the Temple’s sacrificial offerings?

    • Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
      Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
      Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
      Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
      Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

      Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
      Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

      Whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament Jehovah God always required a blood sacrifice. But when the blood of Jesus was shed it only needed to be done once, once and for all.

  84. Ivar wrote,

    “Who «killed» Jesus?

    I did. It was my sins that drove Jesus to the cross. He gave up His life because He loved me.”

    End quote.

    That’s also what it says in Isaiah.

    Isa 53:10 ..when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..”

    Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    The Complete Jewish Bible says the same.

    Isaiah 53 11 After this ordeal, he will see satisfaction. “By his knowing [pain and sacrifice], my righteous servant makes many righteous; it is for their sins that he suffers. 12 Therefore I will assign him a share with the great, he will divide the spoil with the mighty, for having exposed himself to death and being counted among the sinners, while actually bearing the sin of many and interceding for the offenders.”

    There is a veil over many hearts, Gentile and Jewish. The veil is lifted in asking God to show them the truth.

  85. Who crucified Jesus? I did, you did, all of mankind that has ever lived or ever will live did. There were many Jews at the crucifixion that were not consenting to His death. They loved Jesus Christ, accepted Him at the One True Messiah. The Romans were the ones who beat him, spit on him and put on the crown of thorns. The Romans placed him on the cross and drove in those nails. Scripture only tells of the confession of one soldier, truly this man was the Son of God. The Jews, Priests and others wanted One to liberate them from Roman oppression. They didn’t want the bloody Lamb of God. They refused to believe in Jesus Christ even though he fulfilled all of the prophecies, they still would not believe. He was the Miracle Worker and yet they accused Him of doing these things by the power of Baelzeebub and in so doing these religious ones blasphemed the Holy Spirit of God. But Jesus Christ was not murdered. He freely laid down his life, shed his blood, poured it out on the Mercy Seat in Heaven and atoned for all of mankind. Some will receive Him as Savior, others will not. They will be without excuse at the Great White Throne Judgment of God. What tragedy that Jesus atoned for their sin, they refused and will spend an eternity in hell. Yes friends, it was all of our sins that put Jesus on the cross.

  86. It is truly sad that many will take and nit pick the Word till they have nothing left…yet they forget what Jesus said, He said He was sending the Spirit of Truth, The Comforter, The Holy Ghost, HE will lead us into all truth, HE will tell us what HE hears,HE will show us what sees….and all who nit pics the Word till they are so smart they loose the very precious walk with The Lord of Glory is very sad to me….they will be easily be mislead. I don’t see how they can have any type of true relationship with The Lord…not a real one..where HE is ever present.
    (In the story below I had no clue who He was or is J or what a J is or was…since I have in the past few months contracted this)
    I have a complicated complex migraine (it gives symptoms of strokes or convulsions and/or both at the same time with no real warning.. and one day it went into further symptoms than ever before, so much so I could not, not only could not talk, but could not use my arms, nor my legs. For several days. Yet I could see and hear what was going on around me but could not respond not even with a grunt. By the Grace of The Almighty God I came thru, a few days ago, another attack hit, this time I could not recognize words nor could I recognize them in my head. I have a huge door size ”And He shall be Called” a list of names of Jesus in the Bible…on my closet door…the words meant nothing to me….neither did the young man in front of me talking to me staying with me (my grown grandson..usually it’s my daughter or him or the ER)…as I sat there I thought of a word… letters… Gen… Gen…Gen …then I said Gen Gen….this went on till I thought of Exee Exee Exee and so on till Levee Levee and so on till I got to repeat it and started crying when I could say Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy Joshua Judges…. I tried to say ‘the boys (he’s a man) name (my grandson) but I couldn’t it’s Matthew…I saw a name on the wall Messiah, Mediator, Master, but I could not say those words..I could only slowly like Gen Gen …etc Me Mee Mess Messee Medee ,…all the way to the hospital in the ambulance I was saying the Old Testament and Messee and Medee but could not say Ma anything with an ‘a’…Ma.. My a’s came out like ‘K’s….they thought I was probably nuts …I don’t care…they did a good job on my with what they had to do, and Jesus is seeing me thru this daily as each attack hits. He brings me thru His Word. Even when I don’t even know who HE IS, but I am told by my family, ”He knows who you are and all that He has put in you” and we know who you are. (at the time it means nothing, right now it means everything. Our God is an Awesome God and to be in a position to not know him and our children, and our selves is a trial only God will and can take us thru. I for one if He told me, it would of been this way, years ago I do thing I would have said ”Lord, can we negotiate this deal?” (smile)…but like you we all would have said “Lord not my will by but thy will be done…I’m glad He didn’t tell me…
    I say this because ”It was..People please…hear me…That ”was” The Holy Ghost Himself taking me showing me thru those letters, those words on my wall, slowly bringing those letters in my mind how to formulate them in my brain before I could utter them in my mouth. I still am at awe at His ever loving presence.
    So I say forget all the bickering or what denomination, turn to Jesus, believe Him, we do not know what we will go thru in this world, and God knows we will need HIM only HE can get in our hearts and minds to bring us thru and if He don’t, He’ll take us Home with Him.
    Ivar, I found out what happened to the Newsthatmatters getting to me…..the fore mate of my screen page changed and somehow, ”all’ the Christian News went to Spam even personal letters…I deleted 189 letters oops…found out yesterday where some letters were…in the Spam that’s where I found this …
    Another thing….Please, Please I know you feel you are lead to start Church’s (to be an Apostle go around etc)…please continue this as long as you can, there are still so many that are so ignorant to His Word…they need the bread, you are feeding them…they need that milk, they need the ‘screaming facts’, your patience, and yes humor ….that bright light in the night shining this way.. Sometimes people do need the ‘Hell scared out of them”…(smile)…’that too is the Love of God”…that will bring them to repentance…I heard of a man whose skin turned black for 3 days (he was white) when he had heard the Gospel of Repentance…he could not stay asleep, he cried, couldn’t eat, his family thought he was mad.. then he got the break thru…God granted him the Gift of Repentance…’ awesome’..
    Some tell me, I try too hard… I’ve read your words and see your messages on Hell etc…and I see the same thing Ivar..
    …Jesus said…”He who is forgiven much loves much”…get them Ivar…they’ll remain faithful to Jesus …the others only want the ‘gifts and to play games….they’ll beg for half the oil of the faithful…they only want the gifts they don’t really want Jesus! He deserves to be loved ….Oh so much!!
    Thank you for letting me share…It’s been a long ordeal and it’s not over yet!! Keep up the fight!!!

  87. The church of Jesus Christ is in addition to the Nation of Israel. It is NOT a replacement for Israel. We are separate but equal in God’s economy. To believe the church replaces Israel is to call God a liar. His promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be kept. His promises to the true Church of Jesus will be kept as well.

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and he glorious appearing of the Great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ.

  88. Thus is the revelation of the “People of the Book”. Rev Ch 22 : 8-9 : “And I John saw these things & heard them & when I had “Heard & Seen”, I fell down to worship before the feet of the Angel which shewed me these things ”
    “Then said he unto me , See thou do it not, For I am thy fellow servant & of thy brethren the Prophets & of them “Which keep the sayings of THIS Book, Worship God”

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